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/leftpol/ - Left Politics

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File: ab4328e0ba0d0bf⋯.jpg (96.51 KB, 513x512, 513:512, a7804c8e5cbfd1a2f4fce5f32b….jpg)

 No.26762

I know many people here can already see through the bullshit of identity politics, but I think we must see idpol as a symptom instead of the disease.

The disease itself is the Left's anti-materalist obsession with different types of culture wars. This basically boils down to the idea that we need to push the right narrative and the right lifestyle in media, in education, in political discourse, etc. From the sensitive social-democrat who sees lack of diversity in media, to the mentally deranged tankies who sees Fascism in every song or movie to the anarchist that believe a graffiti will "raise awareness", we all fight different versions of the culture wars and dedicate most of our time and energy to it.

>But why is that bad? We have to push our narrative too!

Yeah, except that if you think about it we've fought and won the war, several fucking times, and it lead to nothing. There are socialists who receive universal praise like Gandhi and King, we have clothing with Che Guevara's face everywhere, there are movies and shows where the protagonist is trying to destroy the system, Beyonce is praising the Black Panthers in the fucking Super Bowl. There were entire periods in the past half century were virtually every good band or singer was singing left-wing ideas. Anyone who was alive in the 60s and 70s could safely assume that it's just a matter of time until the young generations became old enough to be in power that the capitalism and tyranny would be destroyed, because that's how left-leaning the kids were.

What has all this lead to? Absolutely nothing. Ideas circulating by themselves without some degree of material change in society to sustain them are worthless. If you want to truly enforce principles and ideas, you need the right social and political institutions, which require two things: an economy arrangement that allows for them, and the class that wishes them to have some degree of political power to create, preserve and expand them. I mean, Jesus, it's almost like the bearded guy who spent his entire youth chimping out at left-Hegelians was right.

But people haven't accepted how futil this endeavour is, and we're now stuck in the Groundhog Day of debating what is and isn't sending "the right massage" in pop culture, and no, the Irony Left twist of inserting a more socialist notion into this debate and talking about how Wonder Woman is Zionism and 300 is Fascism is not the way to fight this. We should remove this strategy from our arsenal almost completely and give it minor attention only. Enough of only attracting kids who want to sneer at everyone else's tastes in pop culture and think this is politics. We don't need this.

>So what do we need?

What we should focus is how to develop society's productive forces further, how to strenghten the political power of the wage-earning class engaged in the private sector, and how to cut capitalism from its predatory life-supports, like imperialism. Enough about the fucking movies.

So what should be done is: Focus on expanding public financial support for scientific and technological research, creating labor, consumer and market mechanisms through which innovative competition can still happen effectively as long as capitalism lasts; making radical unions in every productive sector tied to left-wing political parties that will help create experiments in social ownership and democratic control, and have enough presence in the electoral mainstream political arena to stop public money from going to Moderate Rebels elsewhere. Don't let the latest Occupation or Boycott divert you from this, if you want to spread the right message go on Youtube and prepare lectures about Socialist theory instead of writing about how the Left "needs" Cum Town. We need to affect material reality, everything else is futile even if tempting.

 No.26784

This

Here is a list of the things I’m attempting to do to build dual material power

>a time bank

>a housing coop

>a friend server (cloud based desktop built on block chain tech)

>gardening

>netsukuku (robust mesh networking tech)


 No.26786

I agree 90% (I disagree with you on your trust for traditional demsoc representative-electoral strategies as I am more sympathetic to a Communalist perspective on that).

But maybe we need to start with fixing ourselves.

We, this current of socialist *chan users need to fix our platform before getting shit like this off the ground. You rag on Cum Town (I agree, it's obnoxious bullshit) but we could easily fix issues like this by being more organized. We need an open source domain with participatory involvement (weekly/monthly votes on changes) that keeps a wiki, an RSS feed, among other things. This is crucial if we actually want to carry our set of fairly unique views to the next level and to actually be able to influence netizens into pragmatic and reasonable directions, i.e. away from social-liberal cultural critique of the latest Hollywood movie.

The issue lies in someone (or a collective) taking this into their own hands and actually administering this seriously. So far that hasn't happened and that is very harmful in the long term.


 No.26792

>>26784

Comrade you need to think more pragmatically. Of course mesh would be the ideal, but we need intermediary steps from this server-client / .onion / infinitychan model to something that would work for 'normies' intuitively. AFAIK mesh tech is still very alpha and not ready for wide adoption, hence not sustainable for us as we're not elitists, but socialists.

How about forking 8chan code and re-implementing it with 100% HTML/CSS and a native voting script as socialist chan based on decentralized, NNTPchan-like servers?

This way we would rely on technology pretty much already done and available while taking one massive evolutionary step from the absolutely abysmal situation we're in materially right now - being run out of a chan administered by neo-nationalists and for neo-nationalists.

☘️They even have the scawwy jew brackets implemented as a text-format☘️

<as well as not "fagposting" but explicitly "faggotposting".

We need to get out of this explicitly rightist hellhole before they get the chance of prematurely deleting our boards.


 No.26795

>>26786

>>26792

Basically what I'm trying to say is we give ourselves (as in the the /leftpol/ collective) too little props. We need to connect our theory with our present situation so as to finally be able to grow and reach people.

- Become self-managing

- Network and build ties with other socialist sites

- Implement news aggregators and democratic governing into the site itself

- Archive collective activity into an organized place, i.e. a wiki


 No.26925

>>26784

>netsukuku

Thanks for mentining it, I really need to look into that. Please post here if you have any new developments.

>>26792

>NNTPchan

Thanks for that too.

>How about forking 8chan code and re-implementing it with 100% HTML/CSS

I'm all in for finding a solution to the JavaScript question, but you do realize that a script-less site will look a lot more primitive and thus less palatable to the general public?

<so that what it's called, I thought it's just to visually differentiate between quotes from different sources.


 No.26979

File: 3df716e0a6f8ab1⋯.png (248.53 KB, 433x436, 433:436, nimaa.png)

Good post anon. I would add that for those who are or wish to be involved in politics, the focus should be on concrete demands and policies rather than performative politics or making 'the right kind of' statements and symbolic gestures. The most effective would be to demand reforms understandable to the liberal political institutional frameworks we operate in, but still ones that are unacceptable to bourgeois political hegemony, say- an aggressively and consistently pursued progressive taxation or blacklisting of tax havens.


 No.27098

>>26979

i like these ideas. it seems reasonable to assume that leftists can promote reforms that empower working people without necessarily being limited to reformism.


 No.27237

>>27098

The key idea here is to champion reasonable-sounding and intuitively good reforms that are still unpalatable for bourgeois politics, and thus show the limits of reformism, as well as illuminate the class divide, cast aside all fantasies of 'we are all in this together' nationalist class collaboration.

The working people won't support us if we don't offer them a programme that would help them. A party isn't a worker's party because it calls itself that and has red flags but based on its actual politcal programme. The political formation of the working class arises from the inherent conflict between capital and labour.


 No.27248

>>26762

>Enough of only attracting kids who want to sneer at everyone else's tastes in pop culture and think this is politics. We don't need this.

I think the first time I noticed this shit was when people shat on Gran Torino by saying that its physically impossible to have anything to learn from a guy that says Zipperhead kek

Then it was silly, now its frightening


 No.27272

Very good post anon.

I'd like to add that sharing our skills among each other is very constructive; Whether it be finding books online or how to grow potatoes in your apartment: its all important


 No.27421

Another thought I've had recently is that a lot of what's wrong with the left in general is due to lack of involvement by ordinary working people. if we could reorient the left to be more working class we wouldn't end up with so much sectarian nonsense and idpol issues. This is, unfortunately, what the elites fight and fear the most.

Jimmy Dore mentioned on the Joe Rogan podcast the case of Wal-Mart workers who wanted to unionize the meat department. This scared the company so much that they mounted a propaganda campaign against it (even though it was like 7 workers) and then phased out the meat department entirely (nationwide!)

The center of any left wing movement has to be workers. Uni students, small political groups focused on publishing a journal/newspaper, and various identity-politics organizations have never achieved anything meaningful. And it gives me no pleasure to say it since I believe most of these groups are sincere in their beliefs but they always fail to focus on the REAL problem and the REAL solution. Imagine how many people working for Amazon are becoming ripe for some kind of workers movement? How many people work odd hours, split schedules, multiple jobs, just trying to barely make it? These people are ripe for organizing and the next recession (which is coming soon) will drop them in our lap. How do we capitalize on this? By refocusing ourselves and laying some groundwork for organizing workers in the near future. That's what we need to focus on.


 No.27634

At the risk of pissing off every Marxist on 8chan:

The reason why the Left has shifted so heavily to cultural and identity critique, is because Marx's fundamental prediction (the politicization of proletariat as the revolutionary subject of history) has so far failed to happen. The "cultural Marxists" of the Frankfurt school came about primarily because of this failure of the proletariat to mobilize politically after WWII. I believe Trotsky said as much as well, that if the War failed to result in a proletarian revolution, that socialist thought would require serious re-evaluation. The failure of this prediction has continued to the present day; capitalism is at its global zenith and the proportion of proletarians in society is at its highest ever, but the working class is the most de-politicized it has ever been, with record low participation in both revolutionary/reformist organizations as well as bourgeois elections.

Furthermore, it can be argued that almost every serious revolutionary movement came about in states where the proletariat was not dominant; that revolutions were mostly brought about through class collaboration, primarily with agrarian peasant populations which for the most part do not exist anymore. Past the 1930s there has never been a revolutionary organization in an industrialized nation which has had majority membership and support of the proletariat.

Which leads us to the present day. The current wave of unionizations mentioned by >>27421 is promising, but it's mostly isolated cases of people fighting in their immediate interests for better pay, agency and working conditions, not for the revolutionary overthrow of the existing class system. The actual 'Left' is isolated activists, students and cadres of random people on the internet who critique culture and "critically support" dictators because it's easy and does not involve mobilizing an apathetic, de-politicized working class.

What I'm trying to say is that I agree with OP that cultural critiques are useless, and that more material organization and solidarity-building are good ideas. However, transcending trade-union reformism and actually attempting to overthrow the capitalist system will probably require a great deal more class collaboration with the bourgeoisie than any Leftist would be comfortable with. The proletariat alone cannot be relied upon to organically form a mass revolutionary movement, and neither can a small activist Left. Either that, or the whole system accellerates towards collapse, at which point all bets are off.


 No.27647

Universal Basic Income seems like an achievable policy goal that would dramatically improve the lives of the poor. Leftists should focus on it.


 No.27743

>>26762

wtf is cum town?


 No.27753

>>27743

Weird Twatter goon podcast


 No.28676

>>The reason why the Left has shifted so heavily to cultural and identity critique, is because Marx's fundamental prediction (the politicization of proletariat as the revolutionary subject of history) has so far failed to happen. The "cultural Marxists" of the Frankfurt school came about primarily because of this failure of the proletariat to mobilize politically after WWII. I believe Trotsky said as much as well, that if the War failed to result in a proletarian revolution, that socialist thought would require serious re-evaluation. The failure of this prediction has continued to the present day; capitalism is at its global zenith and the proportion of proletarians in society is at its highest ever, but the working class is the most de-politicized it has ever been, with record low participation in both revolutionary/reformist organizations as well as bourgeois elections.

It is exactly this that Bookchin set to address with his final theory of Communalism. From further inspection I am at least personally very enthusiastic of it's potentials beyond that of which classical Marxism has been able to provide in the contemporary period.


 No.28963

File: 644f7ad4886dbbe⋯.png (227.84 KB, 800x680, 20:17, elephant graph.png)

>>27421

>Another thought I've had recently is that a lot of what's wrong with the left in general is due to lack of involvement by ordinary working people. if we could reorient the left to be more working class we wouldn't end up with so much sectarian nonsense and idpol issues.

>The center of any left wing movement has to be workers. Uni students, small political groups focused on publishing a journal/newspaper, and various identity-politics organizations have never achieved anything meaningful.

This is the core of marxism: the political force of labour contra capital abolishes the present state of things, because of the very concrete, material conflict of interest between labour and capital.

A viable marxist political organisation has to be a worker's organisation, its goal the concrete benefit of the workers. This has to be expanded to include everyone in wage labour, not merely the miner, steelworker and dockhand but also the doctor, the programmer and the domestic worker. We also have to think seriously about class interests as politics outside of the wage labourers as well: this is perhaps more a historical sidenote but the peasants of China, Hungary, Russia who supported the revolutions did not want or necessarily need collectivisation: they just wanted a land reform so they could own their own plots. This should be accounted for.

It's not really so much a question of having ordinary working people as the engines of the movement itself, since they often have no time, energy or capability for politics, but the politics has to be centred around the concept of work. Not fairness or equality, progress or whatever. Work. Reforms of law around work like shorter workdays and changing the relations of production should be the way forward.

Only as workers do we have the widest possible group of people with shared interests. The homophobic Arab worker and the racist gay worker do not have a shared interest in opposing racism or homophobia no matter what liberal idealist 'intersectional' feminists think - but as workers they have a shared interest in opposing capital.

>they always fail to focus on the REAL problem and the REAL solution

The reason these organisations and groups fail to tackle capitalism is because they either don't see it as the fundamental problem in and of itself or consider some other problem as important as anti-capitalism. Thus if these movements gather political power, they'll pick the path of least resistance which is to tackle everything else but capitalism, and capital will simply form itself around the new paradigm. The formerly radical queer liberation and the formerly radical nazis are both excellent examples. As gays become more mainstream the queer liberation struggle abandons the fight against oppressive institutions and capital and instead embraces gay marriage by Doritos (tm). The nazis purged their radicals and embraced 'Captains of Industry' von Krupp (tm).

This applies to /leftypol/ 'anti-imperialists' as well: they can and will ignore the politisised needs of the workers both locally and globally in favour of playing armchair geopolitics and making the politically correct statements, that is to say they are complete and utter idealists. Thus they'll support the Islamic republic against Iranian proletarian political activism.

As an exception to the students' movements' ineffectiveness: the May 4th movement was primarily a student movement but arguably quite influential in China; this perhaps influenced Mao's idealist revision of Marx.

>>27634

>At the risk of pissing off every Marxist on 8chan

Why would this piss off marxists? You seem to be broadly correct.

>Past the 1930s there has never been a revolutionary organization in an industrialized nation which has had majority membership and support of the proletariat.

Lenin's theory of imperialism accounts for this. Fortunately neoliberalism and runaway globalisation of capitalism is undercutting the wages and rights of former 1st world workers and equalising the wage levels of workers globally. See graph.

>people fighting in their immediate interests for better pay, agency and working conditions, not for the revolutionary overthrow of the existing class system.

The first is intrinsically connected to the second. In fact enough of the first means the second, quantitative changes become qualitative change.

>actually attempting to overthrow the capitalist system will probably require a great deal more class collaboration with the bourgeoisie than any Leftist would be comfortable with

Tactically allying with the global bourgeois against national bourgeois and vice versa in the context of the EU for example has to be a part of the repertoire.


 No.29980

File: ee98e5da762eafe⋯.png (75.89 KB, 514x166, 257:83, giii.png)

bumping good thread

>>27647

depends massively on the actual quantity of the income, quantity is a quality of its own here. If UBI is going to be implemented by right-wingers they'll use it to run down public services, workers' protections and other benefits, probably in a way that will make the change a net loss for the most needy. UBI alone, without rigorously enforced progressive taxation for example, does very little.




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