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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

A collective of people engaged in pretty much what the name suggests

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Winner of the 75nd Attention-Hungry Games
/caco/ - Azarath Metrion Zinthos

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Tags: leftism (CLICK HERE FOR MORE LEFTIST 8CHAN BOARDS), politics, activism, news

File: 9beee6ce56e71c1⋯.jpg (123.13 KB, 1300x866, 650:433, gherp.jpg)

 No.2867043[Reply]

>All of Marx's empirical predictions turned out to be false. Diminishing profits, LTV, world revolution in industrialized countries, labor intensive industries would have higher profits than capital intensive ones, etc.

Why are you still a Marxist in the current year?

44 posts and 18 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.2867448

Someone please explain the rate of profit to a brainlet like me. Is it a problem only to free-market economics? Would state capitalism help alleviate some of its problems.?


 No.2867461

Eco fascism is the future


 No.2867462

>>2867448

watch the cockshott video on it


 No.2867466

>>2867198

OP posted >>2867053 and then skedaddled cause he's a fag


 No.2868424

>>2867081

That isn't accelerationism chuckle fuck




File: 7a7ef8609d7fcde⋯.png (5.41 MB, 2480x1736, 10:7, culture socialism.png)

 No.2865138[Reply]

What would culture be like in a socialist society? Many people argue capitalism fosters cultural creation but I feel it stifles creativity and promotes homogeneous garbage.

63 posts and 27 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.2867126

File: e33630002066300⋯.png (118.25 KB, 256x256, 1:1, true.png)

>>2865488

>Capitalist culture is also driven by the masses, but by the unthinking consuming masses, not masses that have taken agency for themselves. They are not engaged in the creative enterprise themselves, but buy creative works to distract themselves from their daily lives.

Is this not, fundamentally, what the influx of personal computers in family homes, and mass access to the internet has changed? No longer are we asked just to consume products in order to fulfill this or that desire via advertising, to watch this movie or this TV show to have a laugh and just generally feel good, after the horribly boring and sterile process of work is done. Instead, what has happened, is that after the creative consciousness led to by virtual programming was fully organized and "streamlined" by the market, is that the process of consumption now implies within itself a "engagement in the creative enterprise". You cannot simply enjoy a certain pop culture franchise, you must also assert your consumer identity via the production of fan works in an effort to not only maximize your enjoyment but also partake in the making of art (vulgar, tasteless art, yes, but art), communicating also your enjoyment to all others. The communities based around modifications of videogames, anime, movies and music and so on reflect this. There's an underlying current of stretching the time spent engaging with the work as much as possible. The pressure is not only to enjoy, and communicate your enjoyment, but also to compete in a "social media marketplace" for attention, which usually decides whenever or not the artist may live off his work, via a gift economy. One could almost say that the old distinction between "work" and "leisure time" has completely eroded as a result: we work when we play and we play when we work. What is particularly interesting is the aesthetic forms this art (that is, fan works, or as my Japanese friend calls them, Doujinshi) takes: usually, even when it is deprived of clearly pornographic or "naughty" elements, it aims more at collective self-enjoyment than any particular universal or absolute goal. In the same way "hacker ethic" is neutered and deprived of it's true revolutionary character via it's participants' reluctance to step beyond "individual liberty" and the recentPost too long. Click here to view the full text.


 No.2867171

>>2865138

No neoliberal bullshit capeshit.


 No.2867475

>>2867126

>The pressure is not only to enjoy, and communicate your enjoyment, but also to compete in a "social media marketplace" for attention

They're competing for clicks and the favor of the YouTube algorithm. That won't exist under socialism, where advertisements are no longer necessary for artists to make money. This changes everything.

>which usually decides whenever or not the artist may live off his work, via a gift economy

Who gets gifts is determined by who is favored by corporations. Only they get the exposure necessary to build a fanbase. There are odd exceptions, of course, but those tend to be the creators who are actually good.

>the massification of the means to do art is neutered by the reluctance to step beyond individual enjoyment and success.

And what defines individual success? Does being individually successful not imply being successful within a community? And does artistic success specifically not imply that you create something that this community considers to be good?

It is because the agents of capital deliberately manipulate our culture that this potential of universal enrichment is thwarted.

It'll be a gradual process for socialist culture to reach the heights it's capable of. At first it'll still be tainted with consumerism. This is why I'd say that next to a Patreon-like system choosing creators through direct democracy, we also need serious institutions funding and promoting the work of historical traditions and new interesting movements.


 No.2867478

>>2867475 (me)

>>2865488 (also me)

I accidentally had this flair on from another thread. Sorry for the confusion.


 No.2867965

>>2865383

>This is indeed heavy pressure, but it creates political pieces that are also very well made -

I'm really interested. Can you give examples of Soviet films with precise political messages?




File: b91abbc0ff3128e⋯.jpg (45.94 KB, 486x550, 243:275, flat,550x550,075,f.u1.jpg)

 No.2867317[Reply]

I'll start:

The DPRK is not inherently shitty, it's mostly due to western sanctions, and being forced to spend a large percentage of its GDP on the military and internal security, to defend itself from U.S. imperialism

58 posts and 11 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.2867588

>>2867564

I think the wordfilter is still hilarious fam, people that don't are prob new


 No.2867593

>>2867532

hi recent convert


 No.2867807

>>2867555

>I'd dispute this tbh, most nations in the Imperial Core have been transitioning away from Social Democracy for decades at this point. I agree with you on the whole though, thought policing isn't something we should be striving for

while this might be true I wouldn't say austerity would make a country not succdem.

>Not sure I'd say that progressive liberals are the problem, but yeah there is definitely a massive contingent of "Left Liberals" who are a big issue, particularly in US & UK.

they absolute are a problem capitalism is THE problem but between the two capitalist parties int he US the liberal are more harmful to leftism than conservatives

>Most of the people I see advocating for it are at best Radlibs who are merely appropriating the aesthetics of Socialism & Anarchism. This is a more general problem outside of just this issue. I would suggest listening to the podcast it's basically all about critiquing this concept that the "Left" supports.

While I do agree this gets into the "no true scotsman" territory

>I agree that freeing labour power to be exploited between borders is a problem when it doesn't come with an exhaustive opposition to Imperialism for pretty much everyone. The core issue here is the underlying conditions that create the problem in the first place, whereby these nations are imperialized and their profits are extracted without going back into the nation to develop, leaving a massive dearth of opporunities for the working class there, at which point, it's not really a choice to immigrate if possible in the same way that wage labour itself isn't a choice

While first and foremost the problem these nations have is imperialism, transporting the people to the west is not a solution in fact it makes the situation worse.

The people coming in are either good the for country or bad.

If they are good then it is just a continuation of imperialism robbing the third world of their best and brigPost too long. Click here to view the full text.


 No.2867865

>>2867505

>Open borders in almost every situation is a bad idea.

Maybe in socialism, but in global communism it really doesn't matter. Mass immigration occurs almost entirely for economic reason. If everyone has everything they need in the area they live in, there isn't a very big reason to immigrate en mass.

>>2867551

IQ levels generally rise as conditions are improved because of the "softening"/elimination of poverty/intelligence traps (i.e. Malnourished uneducated children who didn't receive proper nutrition and are exposed to materials which may negatively alter or affect their growth or genetics grow up and have children who then also lack nutrition and education on top of their now inherited gene mutations. Then repeat.)

One such example of environmental mutations mutations that occur from smoking/being in a smoking environment https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130701135550.htm


 No.2868800

>>2867807

>while this might be true I wouldn't say austerity would make a country not succdem.

It is when barely any of the markers of Social Democracy remain. I'm not talking about "Austerity" here, I'm talking about the entire Neoliberal project from the 70s until now.

>they absolute are a problem capitalism is THE problem but between the two capitalist parties int he US the liberal are more harmful to leftism than conservatives

Democrats aren't "progressive" liberalism, they're at the absolute best, Social Liberalism. Progressives as an entity don't find representation in either of the two Bourgeois parties.

>While I do agree this gets into the "no true scotsman" territory

I mean we're posting on an imageboard, not having a debate, I'm not defending radlibs, I'm saying that this being the dominant position that people associate with Communists is a massive problem.

>While first and foremost the problem these nations have is imperialism, transporting the people to the west is not a solution in fact it makes the situation worse.The people coming in are either good the for country or bad. If they are good then it is just a continuation of imperialism robbing the third world of their best and brightest. If they are bad their behavior will directly impact the working class here.

Idk what all that idealism is about them being "good" vs "bad" but yes Imperialism is the primary contradiction.

>the last thing that will solve this problem is to move huge amounts of their citizen far away.

Yes, that's the point, not sure what you're arguing against here

>while this might be initially bad it would help the nation build up until they are capable of socialism

Please learn what Imperialism is, because it seems as if you don't understand what I'm saying. It's precisely the opposite, poorer nations Post too long. Click here to view the full text.




File: 4dbe1f58930a747⋯.jpg (312.25 KB, 1100x1375, 4:5, 4dbe1f58930a.jpg)

 No.2867842[Reply]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elizabeth-warren-calls-on-congress-to-begin-impeachment-proceedings-against-trump/

You're gonna get Pinochet'd after this with Cold War on Super-Drive. Enjoy LGTBQ+ Liberal Fascism.

 No.2867888

not gonna happen, doesn't matter either way, pence is worse, revolution now, etc etc


 No.2870078

1. Not gonna happen

2. Impeachment doesn't mean shit, Bill Clinton was impeached

3. If he actually somehow was impeached it would likely galvanize his supporters in a similar fashion to how the Kavanaugh circus galvanized them in the midterms




File: 5fd1e2652ae17ae⋯.jpg (106.92 KB, 748x493, 44:29, li-zhensheng.jpg)

 No.2822244[Reply]

Recently I've seen a lot of people express interest in the left, more than the typical urban milieu of disgruntled neoliberals and centrists – but reactionaries as well. The kind of people who a year ago were happily browsing /pol/ or Catholics who've come to reject the political trappings of American Christianity and endeavor to become more "Christ-like".

Either way they're a pretty disparate group, vaguely class conscious, and they come to certain subreddits wanting to learn more. Typically they'll get redirected to some FAQ or Wiki with about a hundred links some of them good, like the Manifesto, V.I. Lenin's writings etc., others quite dry like Das Kapital. There is no rhyme or reason to their order, no natural progression from one thought to another, no evolution from a simple declaration of belief to a thorough analysis. Needless to say the barrier to entry is quite high.

But those that do power through and read the material probably have questions. So they'll go to another subreddit or forum and get absolutely eaten alive. I've seen people asking good faith questions and woke-scolds come out of the woodwork like little fucking gremlins and treat them like absolute shit, if not simply ban them outright for using ableist slurs like idiot or some other trumped up charge. It's enough to make any non-masochist run for the hills.

I remember getting absolutely dogpiled on the Chapo sub by "Dirtbag leftists" when I simply agreed with Amber's "No wokeness" article. I was just about done with that group, when one of the few sane people left PMd me a link to /leftypol/, and I found my little corner of the internet.

This whole thing is fucked until people come up with a better way of welcoming new people.

174 posts and 27 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.2855702

>>2855698

>don't ostracise eachother when they use the wrong fucking pronoun for gods sake. Applying Marx's theories to social issues like gender/race was the worst thing that happened to socialism.

No one here does that.


 No.2855706

>>2855702

I'm more talking about the left in general.


 No.2867471

bump


 No.2867569

>>2823404

>Mark Fisher

>edgy

Did you even read it or is that some wisdom that you heard about that piece?

>the very thought of acknowledging race classifications in America as having a material basis

is literally the opposite of what idpol tards claim. According to them, the idea of racism lead to slavery.

>and thus white racism in the white working-class having a material basis through the politics of an Empire-friendly labor aristocracy

You don't know what any of these words could possibly mean and you don't care. Surplus extraction happens at the point of production. You would need to show how porky squeezes the black man (that's not the hard part) and then shares some of that with the white co-workers of the black man, and why would he do that? You haven't found a solution to that puzzle and you haven't even thought about it, you don't actually think about what these words you shit out mean when real human beings use them. You're like a Markov chain.


 No.2867650

The way to fix the left is very simple.

1. Ostracize all anarchists (this solves the trans question).

2. Stop pathologizing masculinity.

3. Realize that alt-right people are more easily swayed than liberals.

4. Understand that marginalized groups are capable of lying and exaggerating.

5. Stop thinking that media consumption choices determine ideology.

6. MOST IMPORTANTLY: stop stylistically emulating somethingawful posters and weird twitter users for christ's sake. That shit was stale ten years ago.




File: b9e747b79342ab7⋯.png (405.81 KB, 500x500, 1:1, tenshi eating a corndog.png)

 No.2867563[Reply]

can somebody post the real political spectrum please. thanks…………………………………………………………………..

 No.2867571

File: 63c21e41d325d5b⋯.jpg (25.4 KB, 500x200, 5:2, spectrum.jpg)


 No.2867574

File: 29b806bbf063bf7⋯.png (8.34 MB, 1965x1111, 1965:1111, Whattheydon'twantyoutoknow.png)


 No.2867586

left-apolitical-right


 No.2867741

File: 99c94d54af6306c⋯.jpg (1.02 MB, 1148x813, 1148:813, 1487522335583.jpg)

Those that install gentoo ————————————————————————————————— those that do not —————————————– those that cling on to MacOS.




File: f66775c198f1f30⋯.jpg (7.01 KB, 169x169, 1:1, JPEG_20190122_135506.jpg)

 No.2866656[Reply]

Hey there

So I'm a new fag so maybe im retarded and this isn't the right place for it, but check this out, fantastic example of end stage capitalism

https://webaim.org/blog/jaws-license-not-developer-friendly/

tl;dr, JAWS is a blind accessibility screen reader that helps blind people use computers. However, developers had to shell over $800 to be able to test their software to be compatible. As in, unless developers give $800 for a license or set up some enterprise contract, they are NOT ALLOWED TO TEST THEIR SOFTWARE ON SUPPOSEDLY THE MOST USED SCREEN READER.

Freedom Scientific, the fat piece of shit organization behind this, has also monopolized the blind accessibility marketplace.

They use heavy marketing and a tight relationship with government leaders to try to maintain their market share. Their technology is so expensive that blind people have to get grants just to use them, encouraging the monopoly even further.

Yes, this is ancient history, but I'm still investigating whether or not this contract still applies and I'm currently looking into other ways they exploited the blind. Also, know that the press surrounding blind shit is practically all shilling their garbage.

If you know anyone who is blind, get their ass on NVDA Pronto. It's an open source screen reader that isn't shit and actually made by blind people and not pigs.

Pic is my reaction

 No.2867581

Interesting




File: 76cf2e564427c28⋯.jpg (31.08 KB, 480x360, 4:3, how.jpg)

 No.2867576[Reply]

how do i watch this epic battle between minds

1. must be FREE

2. must be LIVE

 No.2867585




File: 15751202eb31126⋯.png (189.84 KB, 1200x1200, 1:1, Anonymous_emblem.svg.png)

 No.2867501[Reply]

Is it true that the CIA suppressed the activities of Anonymous in the early 2010 like it was mentioned in the book: "Kill all normies".

 No.2867509

Were they ever actually an organized group?


 No.2867511

>>2867501

that's literally not in the book you slider


 No.2867523

anonymous wish they could be wikileaks




File: 025212b022f57e9⋯.jpg (53.85 KB, 960x538, 480:269, jew.jpg)

 No.2867299[Reply]

Why don't those who consider 'White privilege' to be a real thing also consider 'Jewish privilege' to be a real thing?

3 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.2867319

File: 227144443528541⋯.jpeg (152.92 KB, 640x761, 640:761, 5D3620A7-60A8-4262-A88C-5….jpeg)

>>2867299

Jews are white. There’s your answer.


 No.2867444

There is definitely jewish privilege, you can be aware of the neurotic behaviour inflicted upon jewish culture due to numerous persecutions without being an anti-semite, Israel clearly uses the holocaust to still portray themselves as victims.


 No.2867517

>>2867319

plenty of jews don't think they're white. they're wrong, but they really believe it (or at least believe it strategically).


 No.2869910

>>2867308

just gonna see what's mine.


 No.2873136

File: 1f2dd0e9fcfe7ac⋯.png (58.8 KB, 623x626, 623:626, joodaas.png)




File: 395f2e4663fe46c⋯.jpg (173.48 KB, 1500x998, 750:499, nuclearplant.jpg)

 No.2866521[Reply]

Why are no one, literally no one, in this board talking about nuclear fusion as the potential perfect energy source, which could dab on fossil fuels, solar/wind/water power and coal?

>completely renewable, only uses abundant resources

>no dangerous production

>no pollution or waste

>will likely be commercially viable by the next 30 years

It'll cause a boom in the global economy like the industrial revolution because this large amount of power generation enables things that weren't possible in the past. Think of very energy intense processes that just aren't done because they aren't profitable due to the cost of energy.

Fusion is basically going to make energy "free" like internet is right now. You most likely pay a monthly subscription fee and get unlimited power usage out of that.

Things that we could do with that involve transmutation which is make Lead or Mercury into Gold or turn any other matter in another matter with a very energy intensive process. This will rapidly push down the price of exotic metals such as gold and platinum.

Another thing we could do is use superconductors that need very intense cooling. This cooling becomes profitable and sustainable if we have enough energy to throw at it meaning we will most likely see computers become millions of times faster due to switching to superconductors instead of semiconductors like silicon.

Last but not least we could use the energy to reverse chemical processes such as we could literally suck out CO2 from the atmosphere and turn it back into oil that we pump back into the ground or something. Meaning we could retroactively reverse the damage already done if we have enough energy to do so.

Interstellar space travel also becomes possible and a Fusion engine could reach 30% the speed of light meaning the closest habitable planet (4.2 light years away) could be reached in ~20 years.

So while some countries will "suffer" as in their power will Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

17 posts and 2 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.2867189

>will likely be commercially viable by the next 30 years

H-how? ITER is going nowhere, and researchers I've talked to have been extremely sceptical about it ever being viable…


 No.2867197

>>2866521

I'm for hardcore denuclearization on Earth, both militarily and civilian, until the waste issue is fixed. However, lunar nuclear power to extract silicon from lunar regolith/"Soil" would give us the ability to mass-manufacture silicon crystals in vacuum conditions, aka solar panels. Likewise, lunar nuclear power would be useful without the contaminating effects of terrestrial accidents. Solar power for Earth, Nuclear Power for the Moon.


 No.2867203

>>2866521

Because cold fusion is a fantasy technology.

There are actual existing nuclear technologies that could be deployed RIGHT NOW, we don't need to go chasing after magic.


 No.2867266

>>2867203

>cold fusion

OP never mentioned *cold* fusion - something that is total fucking nonsense, but was talking about real fusion, which has a sizable amount of money being invested in it. While fusion may turn out to be impractical as a form of electricity generation, it is a thing that actually exists. To suggest that fusion research is "chasing after magic" is really fucking ignorant.


 No.2867441

File: e873f9eb3103f30⋯.jpg (184.1 KB, 1200x675, 16:9, e873f9eb3103f303fb7b1b5a8d….jpg)

>>2866765

Soviet Union was a project that turned Sci-Fi into reality steadily one step by another.

Deal with it.

>>2867197

Is your opinion about earth denuclearization influenced by experience of nuclear power being in the control of imperialist states and them racing for nuclear weapons was the primary driver for many accidents?

Or is it because you believe that transmutation chain of several stages to stable isotopes, or isotopes of chemically inactive elements cannot be found and exploited in power generation, and it will always lead to disasters, contamination, despite the nuclear industry being motivated by well-being of humanity once the capitalism has been chucked into the dustbin of history along with imperialism and military-industrial complex?




File: fd2050f0588ca75⋯.png (691.12 KB, 1024x769, 1024:769, DT6AfSjXcAAvgLA[1].png)

File: cff5864a98cdde1⋯.png (715.52 KB, 800x512, 25:16, cattle-farm-farming-02-fac….png)

File: db5341f96937262⋯.png (218.72 KB, 600x600, 1:1, risks-methane-sharing_600_….png)

File: 9971d0bfce2217b⋯.png (765.34 KB, 1280x1222, 640:611, tumblr_ppxblhEmRz1rasnq9o1….png)

 No.2863303[Reply]

Market-based agronomy is unsustainable, we need democratically planned agronomy. We need to drastically limit the amount of crops dedicated to feeding cattle.

389 posts and 81 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.2867215

>>2867211

What's the issue, then?

>when destroy the planet with cow farts to own the vegans


 No.2867216

>>2867211

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/should-vegans-support-lab-grown-meat

>Secondly, the process for lab-grown meat would still require the use of animal cells. That means they would take a small muscle sample from the animal to collect the stem cells. This is clearly exploitation of the animals and thus would not be deemed vegan.

>The Dutch scientist Professor Mark Post who first presented the world with lab-grown meat laid out his vision as 'you have a limited herd of donor animals in the world that you keep in stock and that you get your cells from there'.

>So, vegans face the question, would we be happy for a small number of animals to suffer to save the billions of animals that would suffer and die under the current agriculture industry? I believe the opinions would be heavily divided.

Most of what I've read by vegans implies that they do not view lab grown meat as vegan. Most do seem to view it as better than the status quo, though.


 No.2867229

>>2867215

It's not a viable alternative to animals yet, and if meat eaters all wait around for synthetic meat to stop eating animals it will be too late. What people should do is switch to a mostly plant-based diet until lab grown meat becomes viable.

>>2867216

It really depends on how the cells are harvested. Obviously if there is a donor herd that is kept around for continual harvesting of stem cells, vegans will object. That's still an animal product, after all, no different than wool or honey or whatever other harmless shit vegans get worked up about. If we get to the point where no animals are involved in the process anymore, though, then it can't really be called an animal product. At that point, the vegans get what they want and animal farming basically ends forever.


 No.2867245

>>2867214

Nah, he's right. The earth is a shit place.

We just can't afford to trash it.


 No.2867311

Christ lmao all of you retards reverted back to the same motte & bailey tactics. You are literally not communists, you are reactionaries, just like vegans are.




File: 6bb9fc8811c5535⋯.png (88.83 KB, 600x200, 3:1, Our Newsletter.png)

File: 86b526d5bf4583a⋯.png (4.07 KB, 238x212, 119:106, descarga.png)

 No.2867284[Reply]

What do you guys think about this org any opinions on them?

Have you even Heard of them?

75characters75characters75characters75characters75characters

 No.2867286

what org?




File: 217a68ad3c58ec6⋯.png (481.61 KB, 472x555, 472:555, 1549036140599.png)

File: bf5dbc31d6ba609⋯.jpg (14.69 KB, 450x245, 90:49, Choubapi.jpg)

 No.2861860[Reply]

119 posts and 25 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.2867257

>>2867255

And where did you obtain such "information" ??


 No.2867259

Plus, can anybody of the CPC defenders link me something where they actually delve into Marxism? Or how they have any plans to transition to anything more socialistic by 2050 compared to what they have now? I've looked hard to find anything where they actually talk about Marxism proper. This guy visited a Marx conference in China and reported terminally revisionist trash:

https://monthlyreview.org/2007/09/01/the-state-of-official-marxism-in-china-today/

You can't just call yourself a communist party and pretend you don't need theoretical content.


 No.2867260

>>2867259

Idk, the leader of the CPC just gave a great quote. Another one is in the OP


 No.2867261

>>2867255

The only numbers I can find hover around a million. Which isn't much considering he has the highest position in the CPC.

>>2867259

>https://monthlyreview.org/2007/09/01/the-state-of-official-marxism-in-china-today/

Have they written an update? This was written in 2007.


 No.2867262

>>2867261

Well Hudson, Harvey, Roberts and many others are at Marxist conferences in China almost every year. They talk and write about the thriving marxist thought there.




File: 8a770f079f30a1b⋯.gif (5.69 MB, 500x500, 1:1, economy cookies.gif)

 No.2866709[Reply]

How will we keep redeploying labor in a productive way under socialism? Workers have a tendency to get comfortable in the jobs they have, and will often refuse to go adapt to a new workplace. This becomes a real problem when these same people are in charge of planning. They'll never plan themselves out of work.

I get that this effect is exaggerated under capitalism because of the bullshit unemployed people have to deal with, which probably wouldn't exist under socialism. That being said, why haven't capitalist countries been able to solve this problem? What's the structural flaw that prevents organized redeployment of labor under capitalism? This worries me.

Maybe we should have a two-tiered ranking of jobs, call it intermediate and stable employment. If someone loses their stable job they are moved to an intermediate job in their local community. Then, when a stable job they're qualified for opens up, they can switched to stable employment instead. Intermediate jobs are inessential things that are nonetheless helpful to the economy, and perhaps they can also provide temporary additional labor-force where necessary. Stable jobs are more economically essential functions.

Another idea I had is to give people a large bonus when they become redundant, like a couple of months of paid vacation or something. We could also give them training for a new job while keeping them subsidized throughout it, or try retraining and redeploying whole enterprises at once. Then they can change their job alongside the coworkers they're already familiar with. That should soften the blow too.

Are there any thoughts you guys have on this? This is really the kind of concern I imagine non-socialists would bring up. Government jobs are notorious for precisely this kind of inefficiency.

pic unrelated

3 posts omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.2866748

>>2866740

Class is a question of ownership and exploitation, i.e. a real, material question of property relations. Not "when there are job rankings".


 No.2866780

> How will we keep redeploying labor in a productive way under socialism? Workers have a tendency to get comfortable in the jobs they have, and will often refuse to go adapt to a new workplace. This becomes a real problem when these same people are in charge of planning. They'll never plan themselves out of work.

Resistance to change is greatly reduced when it doesn't entail a threat to the livelihood, precariousness etc.

> Maybe we should have a two-tiered ranking of jobs, call it intermediate and stable employment. If someone loses their stable job they are moved to an intermediate job in their local community.

You really mean people should have back-up jobs, well we are going to get lambasted for work-fetishism, but still it seems reasonable to pre-organize something like this. But what the hell are those people going to do in there local communities ? You need a type of work that is not necessary to be done, for the time the back-up job is not requested but still useful when it's done, the reality of this will be offloading People to the BS-jobs-zone, most will never ever get out again. Or worse second-class labour.

> and perhaps they can also provide temporary additional labor-force where necessary. Stable jobs are more economically essential functions.

I disagree with this type of "stand-by labour" that sounds like you copied flexible temp labour or gig economy type relation. We are going to plan the economy precisely to avoid this pseudo reserve army of labour. The better working conditions we are trying to achieve in a socialist system is based on distributing the burden better. And the ideological claim that capitalists make is that the labour-force has deficiencies that cause the chaotic economic relations, as socialists we make the claim that there are no deficiencies with the labour force but rather the deficiencies lies with how capitalists are allocating work.

> Another idea I had is to give people a large bonus when they become redundant, like a couple of months of paid vacation or something. We could also give them trainingPost too long. Click here to view the full text.


 No.2866808

>>2866780

>the reality of this will be offloading People to the BS-jobs-zone, most will never ever get out again

Maybe we need to keep a handle on the ratio between the two forms of employment. If it shifts towards intermediary employment (without this being the result of some kind of shock) we automatically reduce work hours for everyone.

>I disagree with this type of "stand-by labour" that sounds like you copied flexible temp labour or gig economy type relation.

Part of this new relation is determined by advancement in the means of production. We need people who can do these kinds of jobs.

You seem to be under the impression that these temporary jobs pay worse and less consistency. That's not the idea. Workers will be able to maintain their normal standard of living in between stable jobs without any problem. Ideally it won't make any difference to them outside of their work-life.

>do we tax people to bribe others to stop working?

They aren't bribed to stop working, they are bribed to deal with the shit that comes with switching employment. If they have an option to exert pressure and continue the cushy job they already have, there needs to be some reward for not choosing to do that.

The idea is that automation becomes something positive, to be enthusiastic about, rather than a bother. Even if the benefits go directly to the people, the fact that these benefits get evened out over the entire population makes the process a bother for the people actually involved in it. That's why we give them an extra portion for a short while, and then have them go back to their status as an ordinary worker, as to not create unjust inequalities.

The core principle is that if some worker has to suffer while the rest of the economy benefits, we have to compensate that worker as to undo that effect. Further, we should encourage workers to find ways to make themselves redundant. They should be coming up with innovations to make the system work better.

>basically for the transition phase they work part-time in their old occupatPost too long. Click here to view the full text.


 No.2866867

>>2866808

> Maybe we need to keep a handle on the ratio between the two forms of employment. If it shifts towards intermediary employment (without this being the result of some kind of shock) we automatically reduce work hours for everyone.

I don't quite understand what your assumption here are, if you plan your industry won't you know in advance how employment develops ?

>Part of this new relation is determined by advancement in the means of production. We need people who can do these kinds of jobs.

>You seem to be under the impression that these temporary jobs pay worse and less consistency. That's not the idea. Workers will be able to maintain their normal standard of living in between stable jobs without any problem. Ideally it won't make any difference to them outside of their work-life.

It think the

Again if you plan your R&D you can plan for training of people, i don't understand why technical advancement have to produce any ruptures in a way it does in capitalism.

> they are bribed to deal with the shit

why does there have to be "shit" to deal with

>If they have an option to exert pressure and continue the cushy job they already have, there needs to be some reward for not choosing to do that.

Alright then, but you have not explained where this reward comes from,keep in mind that a socialist society does labour time calculation, you cannot create money to pay out rewards, you also not have a capitalist with private reserves to draw a reward from, you would have to tax people to have the ability pay out a rewards, I'm trying to understand how the social relations here work. If I understand this correctly you are basically going to tax the rest of society to pay extra workers to endure the negative side effects that you seem to attribute to these changes in the means of production.

>we should encourage workers to find ways to make themselves redundant. They should be coming up with innovations to make the system work better

Well the cPost too long. Click here to view the full text.


 No.2867244

>>2866709

>We could also give them training for a new job while keeping them subsidized throughout it, or try retraining and redeploying whole enterprises at once

This is the main thing. We need to put an end to the idea that you stop learning when you're 22. People should be going in and out of school their whole life. And we need to bring the school into the workplace. Lecturers should go to the factories and teach people about the stuff that's relevant to their work.

More educated = more flexible in picking up new tasks.




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