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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 88754c554c991b6⋯.jpg (93.96 KB, 661x618, 661:618, Tierra-30-Superman-Red-Son.jpg)


I figure this would be a great opportunity for the creative types of /leftypol/ to collaborate on a very special project.

If you've read Superman: Red Son, you know that the events that transpire in that story happen exclusively in the elseworld dimension known as Earth 30. The main aspect that makes this elseworld so fascinating is that instead of an American icon, Superman is a symbol of Soviet power that gives the USSR a significant advantage in the Cold War. Without spoiling the events of the story, the resolution at the end isn't necessarily that much of a win for leftism, and the role superheroes would play in a leftist paradigm isn't explored nearly as much as it ought to be.

This is where we come in.

Let's create a storyline following an alternate path of Earth 30. Let's call it… Earth 30-B, for now. In this dimension, each DC hero is individually representative of various branches of leftism (Superman being ML, Batman being anarchist, etc). Somehow, these leftist heroes band together to form the Justice Union, a team that stands as the ultimate bastion against Western imperialism and other forces of bourgeois oppression.

This idea came to me while hearing the Gary Clark Jr/Junkie XL cover of Come Together, the one used in the second Justice League trailer. The idea of coming together to unite against a common enemy is a huge motif in the Justice League film, and that made me think of our own struggle to achieve leftist unity. I think this kind of project would not only be a great exercise in creative energy, but also a pristine opportunity to explore the possibilities of how exactly to achieve left unity.

So what are you waiting for, /leftypol/? Let's make the Justice Union happen!


Im not really into comics or superheroes and I haven't read Red Son but I know Batman would have to be changed.

Instead of being the son of a rich industrialist, he could be the son of a particularly thrifty and poor mechanic or something. His parents get killed when a rich spoiled son of some capitalist kills them in some fuck up incident. Then instead of going around beating up junkies and petty criminals he goes after corrupt government officials, cops, capitalists, union busters, racists, and the elite.

Seriously, Batman is the worst superhero ever. Bane did literally nothing wrong.



You've got the right idea going, anon. You definitely need to read Red Son. It's not too much of a spoiler, but in Red Son, Batman was the son of a counter-revolutionary couple protesting against the Stalin regime, and when the KGB killed his parents, he blamed the Soviet government, Superman included, and grew up into a V for Vendetta style anarchist vigilante.

I also think the Justice Union version of Batman should keep his martial arts experience. He'd probably live a lot closer to those oriental facilities, geographically speaking, so he wouldn't need fancy bourgeois shit like private jets to get there, just his own two feet and a bit of hitchhiking. He should also still be at odds with Superman ideologically, but still respect him as a fellow hero and agree to disagree. That's core to his character, and wouldn't really change in a leftist setting.


Make green arrow a union member. Just don't change anything about him. Earth-30 green arrow is the same as regular dc green arrow except make him full of selfloathing for being a (I would expect now former) capitalist.



Already a libsoc hero



Fuckin hellz yeah, bruh! In fact, what do you think the vigilante/metahuman to alien ratio should be in the Justice Union? Would Martian Manhunter fit?




I'm having trouble imagining how Martian manhunter or the flash would fit tbh



Well, Flash is a forsenic investigator who was struck by lightning while hooked up to a bunch of chemicals that gave him his super-speed… I guess we have that to start with.




Sounds more like Cyborg, but maybe Flash would fit. Or is there a difference between Technocracy and transhumanism?


This. Absolutely perfect! The Martian race was all but eliminated because of extraterrestrial imperialism, so it makes total sense!



cape shit is cancer


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Fuck off, we're having fun


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actually batman was not necessarily an anarchist, superman only describes him as "anarchy in black" and in his cave we see a torn american flag as well as several american beers and products, such as the big tony



I think those are meant to be trophies, like how regular Batman has trophies from his scuffles with various villains. The dinosaur robot and giant penny are the two most notable trophies of the batcave.



That is possible, although would an anarchist work alongside capitalists to overthrow MLs?




how so? I understand it can be cancer but that doesn't mean it's cancer all the time.



The will to power is never a problem, the goal of using power always is.


Martian Manhunter is Posadist, duh. The Flash is Accelerationism.


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Funny maymays my dude



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Sorry I didn't take the topic about Marxist superheroes seriously enough


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>I also think the Justice Union version of Batman should keep his martial arts experience. He'd probably live a lot closer to those oriental facilities, geographically speaking, so he wouldn't need fancy bourgeois shit like private jets to get there, just his own two feet and a bit of hitchhiking.

What if Earth 30-B Batman was part of the Black army and was sort of a loony that dressed as a bat to put fear into the White Army by attacking at night originally and kept the look after the revolution in Russia to fight in other conflicts and assassination missions. It'll give a reason for Batman to be seen using guns again.



Hey, I was complimenting you. Those were actually pretty funny applications to those characters. You don't have to take this seriously if you don't want to. This project could be a brilliant opportunity to spread leftist ideology, or it could just be one big meme exclusive to this board. Either way, we should be having fun with it.



That is a very fascinating approach… I dunno though. Should Earth 30-B Batman have guns at all? Is it subversion or enhancement of his character?



Oh I thought you were being arsey. Anyways. I don't have a problem with this or anything, could be good CC material, but it depends how it's done. As a member of the FURCOM GANG I can hardly be that cynical about something not being serious



>Should Earth 30-B Batman have guns at all? Is it subversion or enhancement of his character?

I think it's best to not take the same character and put him in a different setting, but to be an entirely different person with just enough similarities to identify that it's this universe's Batman. The no kill policy was for a Batman that fought to clean the streets in Gotham, this Batman is an Anarchist fighting for the revolution.



True, the no-kill rule for a revolutionary Batman would be completely counter-intuitive. Though the reason Batman refrains from using guns is connected with the trauma of his parents' death. I can totally see Batman killing in an alternate setting, but I'm dubious about him using guns to do so unless it's for a good reason.



>Though the reason Batman refrains from using guns is connected with the trauma of his parents' death. I can totally see Batman killing in an alternate setting, but I'm dubious about him using guns to do so unless it's for a good reason.

What can happen for the dead parents to be a thing in this setting is his father died fighting in Russo-Japanese war and his mother fell sick and died years later. He joined the Imperial Russian Army and fought in WW1. After the humiliating defeat served the Red Army stationed in Crimea and later joined the mutineers which joined the Black Army. He can have the mentality of being sick and tired of having rulers dictate his life while suffering their incompetence to justify his stance. He decides he'll fight his own way and wears a black cape with a hood with pointed ears to give a Batman look. This Batman goes full Macgyver and wrecks havoc on all who threaten the Free Territory under the cover of night.


Would the joker be an ayn rand lolbert in this universe?



Couldn't have said it better myself, anon. That is fucking badass. We'll go with that!


>Ayn rand lolbert

That's more like Lex Luthor, though in Earth 30-B, Luthor would clearly be a powerful bourgeois elite. Not all that different from regular Lex, but his class status is more realized here.

If Batman is an anarchist vigilante in Earth 30-B, the Joker needs to be on the opposite side of that coin. Maybe some sort of chaotic ancap who's mad with fucking over society for his own gain? He should definitely have some sort of circus theme going, I think. Ringleaders are petty bourgeois, aren't they?


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Twoface needs to be this guy. Also, I think that the "hero as insufferably pure and good symbol" vs "villain as complex and interesting character with flaws" should be reversed so that the protagonists are more complex and interesting than the villains, who are mostly shallow one-note douchebags just like their IRL counterparts.




Actually you know what, here's my idea for The Joker. Base him on the Sargonites. He's the antithesis of Batman, who has personal stakes and experience in politics. The Joker is just a shitty "comedian" or "cultural commentator" with no stakes or experience in the matter and lives to cause controversy and offend. He's not a physical threat in any way but he's on the forefront of the ideological battle against the left because he commands legions of fans who laugh about how the left = liberals and are too sensitive. Any attempts to criticize him are met with "I'm just Joking!(TM)" Him never getting killed is justified because killing him would be such bad optics for the heroes given the liberal normies' obsession with free speech.



>Two-Face as an ancap

Fucking PERFECT dude.

Though the thing about DC Comics is that they already make all their characters flawed and complex, heroes and villains alike. It lifts their writing to a very high standard that we should do no less than uphold faithfully.


Dude. Fucking… DUDE.

You are a goddamn genius.

We are TOTALLY doing this for the Joker. Perfect doesn't even begin to describe how well this fits.


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What do you do with a character with a Randian/Objectivist background like the Question? In the 80s he was changed into a more “zen”, eastern philosophical inspired character.

Also, the WWII era team All-Star Squadron, instead of being created because of Pearl Harbor, could have been created after Operarion Barbarossa. Their HQ in the New York World Fair’s Trylon and Perisphere could be changed for some interesting looking Soviet architecture. I admit, as only a causal lurker in /leftypol/, ignorance of much of Soviet history so someone mare knowledgeable than me can probably suggest something concrete.

The team’s name could be changed to Red Star Squadron, too.



Lumpenprole Drug lord


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Should he have an element of those meatheads with hypermasculine supplements for sale?



I like how Lex was portrait in the original Red Son, can we keep him like that?



Jesus that's perfect


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Here's a picture of him.



I only personally know the Question as he was portrayed in Justice League Unlimited, where he was just a general conspiracy theorist. The Red Star Squadron is a great idea, though. It could be a more Soviet-sanctioned hero team, as opposed to the more nationally independent Justice Union.


Sure, but only up to where he becomes president. Either that, or alter his path ever so slightly to where he's still the same character, but still one of the most powerful Porkies in the world. The bourgeoisie is the Legion of Doom to the Justice Union, evidently.


That's the dude who played Pennywise in the new It movie, isn't he? He'd no doubt play a great Joker, Earth 30-B or otherwise.



Sounds fucking awesome anon and I hate batman too. Just add on that the son of the rich capitalist gets the judges paid off with daddies money.


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We need to get some drawfags to drum up some character designs for this shit.

Also, is there any way to do a leftist Wonder Woman without intersectionality, anarcho-feminism, or any other sort of idpol involved?



>is there any way to do a leftist Wonder Woman without intersectionality, anarcho-feminism, or any other sort of idpol involved?


WonderWom is reactionary shit from the outset so feminism is her only seriously leftist fallback



I'm not familiar with the details of the Red son story line so I'm not sure if everyone's abilities are different. But if Wonder Woman was suddenly Russian why not just dress her up like Black Widow.

Also it's really simple to maker her Russian because you could say a Russian pilot discovered her and Themyscria instead of an American one.



In redson Wonderwoman was the leader of themyscira and just sorta became allied with the USSR because she wanted Super dick



>That's the dude who played Pennywise in the new It movie, isn't he?

No, it's The Dangerous Faggot. He's a twat known for getting banned from college campus speaking engagements for saying lesbians aren't real and threatening to dox illegal immigrants.


>is there any way to do a leftist Wonder Woman without intersectionality, anarcho-feminism, or any other sort of idpol involved?

The whole concept of the character is idpol. Her backstory is that she's from a Hellenic-themed utopia that was achieved by kicking out all the men. She'd have to be completely reworked. Or maybe she left because she got tired of the man-hating.


BTW if you want to read Red Son it's here on imgur


~150 pages. You can view on the site or download a .zip file with the pictures.



>is there any way to do a leftist Wonder Woman without intersectionality, anarcho-feminism, or any other sort of idpol involved?

The best I can think of is that wonder woman in Earth 30-B was found by a Soviet pilot instead, and decided to help fight Porky because of the inherent alienation in a capitalist society is a big factor when it comes to why women generally have lesser rights than men in its history, and in a true egalitarian socialist society the problems that feminism seeks to solve wouldn't exist in the first place

What I'm really interested in is Green Lantern and The Flash. Neither one of them are overtly ideological or political, and something tells me they wouldn't be. Green Lantern could be a Soviet pilot instead of American, or a communist sympathiser, and decided to use his power to help the Justice Union instead of the erm…. Legion of Porky? I mean, in the original setting the Guardians of the Universe (bosses of the Green Lantern Corps) are pretty frigid a-holes who are pretty disconnected from the denizens of the Universe(highlighted a lot in the more modern comics) and didn't care that Sinestro, the original "Greatest Lantern" had turned his sector into a fascist dictatorship, so they wouldn't care if Hal Jordansky used his power to help the Soviets instead of Americans.

Similarly, The Flash is at his core a hopeful fellow who wants to help everyone, and works in his day job as an investigator with a strong sense of justice, after seeing his dad jailed for a murder he didn't commit. One of his main character conflicts is that no matter how fast he goes, he's always late for something: personal life, saving someone, whatever. Not very political. Maybe his desire to help everyone whenever he can could manifest in him deciding that Communism is the way to go for this goal?

Also the Reverse Flash can still be a fanboy from the future who's not right in the head, and escaped the 25th century because he didn't like his socialist utopia because he's a selfish dick. or something.


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Nolan's Bane is basically Lenin as seen through the lens of bourgeois ideology. I'd keep him more or less the same except without being an omnicidal maniac bent on blowing everything up for no reason.


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>The whole concept of the character is idpol.

Sadomasochistic bondage is idpol now?



>homnicidal maniac bent on blowing everything up for no reason

Literally his only crime in that movie. Aside from that he was the good guy. Lol, if it wasn't for his need to kill wantonly and blow crap up he would have been a better hero than Batman.



>I'm an alien with general superhuman abilities

>I'm ultra resourceful and a tactical genius

>I'm fast

>I make force fields using willpower

>I'm mermaid man

>I'm Legolas

>I'm a stronk woman from the stronk woman tribe

One of these things is not like the others.



Those are some pretty good ideas, anon! I love how we're getting quite the thoughtful writers up in here contributing to this little project.

Perhaps Wonder Woman could learn of the socioeconomic divide between men and women when venturing into the capitalist nations of Man's World, alongside the Soviet rendition of Steve Trevor, who could be just as much an expert spy as the actual Steve Trevor is, infiltrating Western nations to perform espionage there. Upon witnessing not only that very gender divide, but the suffering many face under the alienation and exploitation of capitalism, Wonder Woman would vow to dedicate herself to fighting the forces of bourgeois oppression and Western imperialism everywhere around the world. If the Wonder Woman movie shows anything about her character, it's that she's an inherently caring person, and wants the best for humanity. Perhaps she could be a little less naive in Earth 30-B and be extremely well-read in ancient philosophy, so that she'll be more readily able to critically observe the material conditions of society, capitalist or otherwise.

You've pretty much got Green Lantern down quite well for Earth 30-B. Ideologically, Hal Jordan seems pretty simplistic, and could be nothing more than Hal Jordan as we usually know him except as a Soviet pilot fighting for socialism against Porky. Other Green Lanterns are a more interesting topic, though. John Stewart is more militant and strict by nature… Maybe he could be a rather tough Soviet soldier whose military training took place during the Stalin regime? Guy Gardner would pretty much be the average tankie, lol.

Funny thing about the Flash… My personal favorite hero is Superman, but personality-wise, I'm a lot more like the Flash. An optimistic smartass with an insatiable appetite and a strong sense of justice and desire to help people. And speaking in terms of both my personality and my leftist standings, I'm a bit of an idealist too. I declared myself a communist early on because the word of Marx inspired me that a better society for all humanity is possible. I still believe that to this day. So if you need to design the character of Earth 30-B Flash, you can just base him off myself if you like. I'd be humbly honored if you decide to.


I've heard the theory float around that Bane is /ourguy/, and frankly, I disagree. He may seem quite revolutionary on the outside, but he admitted to Batman that it was all a facade to lull the people of Gotham into a false sense of liberation before their demise. In the prison hole that's described as the "worst hell on Earth", Bane explains his plan to a crippled Bruce Wayne…

>"I learned here there can be no true despair without hope. So, as I terrorize Gotham, I will feed its people hope to poison their souls. I will let them believe that they can survive, so that you watch them clamoring over each other to stay in the sun."

So sorry guys, Bane is no revolutionary. Just expertly manipulative. This could work quite well in Earth 30-B somehow, if we figured out the right way to do it.



The only one here that doesn't belong is you and your idpol faggotry.



Dude obviously if you take it face value bane isn't /ourguy/ which is why they look at the movie as a work of film and conclude that bane is only bad fue to ideology


Does this all take place in Russia like in Red Son or the US?



It's more something that involves more parts of the world where leftism is concerned. The Justice Union's Hall of Justice could perhaps be centered in Moscow. The US would be one of the "bad guy" territories, particularly where Lex Luthor resides.



Masterson (I don't remember if this is how you spell it) Created WW as a vehicle to showcase why he tough matriarchy was superior.

In the early comics amazon island was show to be a super advanced utopia and the amazons themselves were physically superior to common men and I think WW traveled outside of the island to show men's world that her ways were superior.

Masterson was a victim of his era, he had been born later he will be your run of the mill fetishist instead of trying to justify and promote his fetish in a bunch of different frameworks and media



So what you're saying is, Golden Age WW was a vessel of femdom?






In the inevitable crisis crossover event, when the Justice Union meets the Justice League, will they be immediately hostile towards each other or will it be like the Justice Lords story where our heroes slowly realize these parallel heroes are not really the good guys? And, will any of our heroes or the Justice League be sympathetic towards each other?



I imagine the justice union would be open to cooperating at first but quickly start to notice something isn't quite right with the league



pretty much



>crisis crossover event

Bitchin'. That would be the fuckin' tits.

I don't think the League would necessarily have any ill sentiments against the Union. The League isn't pro-capitalist; in fact, they do their best to save lives and defend Earth while still remaining apolitical, despite occasionally drawing controversy thanks to scrutinous government officials like Amanda Waller, or pompous talking heads like Gordon Godfrey.

Perhaps the League wouldn't personally condone the Union's blatant platform of leftist political warfare, but would still acknowledge them as allies against legitimate threats to the safety of Earth and humanity. They just wouldn't let the Union carry out any missions in the Prime dimension, to maintain their non-interference policy.

Oh, and the League wouldn't trust any potential Posadists in the Union for intergalactic threats like Mongul or Darkseid. For obvious reasons.






Calling all drawfags!



yes, one without self awareness.



Read year 1, ya doofus



also this, mainly

>US comics

trite social commentary with 100 year old IPs

>Mangas, BD

Literally anything and everything possible



There are more indie comics than Big Two.


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I recently been pondering

Why does this happen? Why are villains more interesting that heros?



Heroes, especially comic book heroes, have to conform to more specific archetypes than villains do. There's only so many variations of good guy that you can create while villains have a lot more room to be three dimensional. You can tell a story about a sympathetic villain but generally speaking no one likes an unsympathetic hero (anti heroes have to be at least somewhat sympathetic to work imo)

Plus there's the fact that in most stories, the villian is the one who takes the active role in the plot to change things while the hero has to react to the villain. That gives the bad guys more agency and thus more opportunity to impress the audience.

Personally I'd love for more stories about proactive heroes but that rarely gets published, and when it does it's usually with the message that good guys shouldn't try to force their worldview on the world.


This is off-topic but I really, really enjoyed BvS. I didn't really grow up with comic book heroes as much as tokusatsu and mecha but I'd rate it on the same level as Pacific Rim. And since I like this place, I hope you did too.

On a more related note, I don't really see the point of changing Superman's symbol. I'm guessing he's much more involved with the state in Red Son, but if that's not the plan it just seems like a shallow way to say "Hey, this alien isn't AMERICAN!" like America has a monopoly on it which makes no sense. The "S" is already red.

Actually, isn't the whole point of Superman pretty posadist?



Mark Millar is a hack and changing the Superman symbol into a hammer and sickle is meant to be edgy in burgerland.

>Actually, isn't the whole point of Superman pretty posadist?

It seems pretty anti-posadist because even though superman has metahuman intelligence and access to amazing technologies that could revolutionize life on earth and obviate much of the crime he fights he doesn't share it with humanity.



>I really, really enjoyed BvS

Fucking SAME, dude. I don't give a fuck what anyone else says, that movie is a masterpiece. The Ultimate Edition, anyway. The theatrical cut admittedly has some pacing issues.

Have you seen the Ultimate Edition, or just the theatrical cut? Why exactly did you enjoy BvS so much, if I may ask? I must say, though, I find it very impressive that it managed to win over a non-comic-reader in the same vein as it did with me, an avid and well-read comic nerd who recognized the faithful accuracy to the wide variety of source material in that movie.


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>It seems pretty anti-posadist because even though superman has metahuman intelligence and access to amazing technologies that could revolutionize life on earth and obviate much of the crime he fights he doesn't share it with humanity.

the idea was always that if superman shared that tech and did everything for humanity they would never have the opportunity to grow and develop themselves.

Which is really stupid if you think about all the potential future Einsteins who are going to die young from curable diseases because Clark doesn't want to let doctors find out about kryptonian medicine


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>that dialogue in pic related

>the exact same fucking dialogue in Man of Steel

The DCEU is pin-point accurate to the source material. No doubt about it.





the mcu sucks but don't you dare try to whitewash zach snyder anon



Its all cancer all the time.


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Long off-topic rambling incoming. I'm no film buff so, really, I enjoy them on a surface level. I didn't notice the "editing/pacing issues" people keep mentioning in the three times I watched it in theatres. Before BvS though, I had only seen MoS once, left feeling confused and promptly got swept up in the negativity. I of course decided to see that again before getting the UE.

To put it simply, BvS is spectacular. The opening immediately caught my attention and the whole thing is just brimming with tension and emotion. It's not afraid to be dramatic which I absolutely love and believe to be why it is so compelling. I recently saw a video that highlights how much it takes advantage of the medium by showing instead of telling and there are plenty of scenes with little to no dialogue (esp. action sequences) which again, I love. Don't get me started on the OST. All the faithfulness, imagery, parallels and homages serve to add to it when I thought there was nothing left. It's also ironic that DC being so far the more "grounded" of the two does not shy away from fantastic imagery like Bruce getting lifted by the bats.

Having grown up with tokusatsu, I have an appreciation (and craving) for all things fantastic. I love big things that need to be done with special effects. The problem however is the lack of proper respect for that simple concept by most filmmakers and viewers. The market is so saturated with soulless cash-grab spectacles which are so focused on having crazy stuff on-screen they forgot all about how to do it: cinematography. Some of my favourite SFX are powerful moments, that show the subject's majesty or beauty outside of fight scenes. Pic related. BvS had them too, the most prominent being Superman's montage. The action is, most importantly, comprehendable. Bamham hits like a truck and the warehouse scene is incredible. And for a last-minute CGI big guy final boss, Doomsday felt like a legitimate threat. The scene of Superman taking it to space is another beautiful moment.

I didn't even about characters. There was character development. Superman. Batman stole the show. Alfred has the superpower of bantz. Lex was great too. Female characters are actually important here and no, I'm not talking about WW. There's the whole theme of mothers and Lois the love interest is actually a character and has things to do. Actually, I just realised that the plot had nothing to do with saving the entire world until Doomsday came in so that probably helped. Did I miss anything?


>western imperialism is so strong it needs a group of super heroes to defeat it

not a good look to promote imo


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I wish they'd stop holding so tightly to the status quo and actually explore how the world would or could change by introducing this Super technology. It's the same thing that bothers me about the MVU. Every time the world takes a turn for the interesting or the speculative it's just a set up for it to get knocked down and returned to the status quo. I loved Straczynski's run on Thor, where you have Asgard looming over rural Oklahoma and these gods and heroes rubbing shoulders with these Okies. Then Siege happened and welp so much for that. Woops gotta put Asgard back and resurrect Odin. Thanks Fraction. Though Journey into Mystery kinda soothed that wound… for a little while.


>Enjoyment prohibited

It's possible to do a story that explores the issues in the world we have now without having all our problems solved by some magical ubermensch. For instance, Alex Ross (and Paul Dini?) did a Superman story where Supes naively goes to the UN and says that the rich countries need to do more to help the poorer ones. He tries to solve the world's problems by redistributing food and that sort of liberal nonsense, but it ends in failure, because human nature :^)

And of course, it has to be some kind of impossible-to-change reason like human nature that produces this outcome. It's the same reason despite being worlds with literal super humans in them, things cannot look anything unlike what we have today. You start doing treacherous things like saying "why don't they change things?" and you start to come up with thorny questions like "why can't things be changed?" For things to be changed, they have to be the result of material processes that can be effected. Letting normal people start thinking that way can be dangerous! Better instead to make the result immutable based on the intransigent universal certainty of Human Nature. Sorry, I guess even Superman isn't strong enough to change that.

I can't remember where I read it, but in some theory regarding bourgeois fiction (iirc), it was said that a distinction of bourgeois novels/fiction is that bourgeois fiction just accepts the functioning of the system as a natural process without comment. The business of society happens in the background if at all and the system in which the characters lives hardly if ever effects them. Reversing that, examining the place the characters occupy without society and their interactions with it, it's possible to render a pertinent examination and critique of that society. An example of what I'm talking about is The Grapes of Wrath, which goes into detail regarding the forces that created the circumstances that the characters find themselves in and that move and effect them throughout. There isn't any reason that something similar couldn't be done in the context of a superhero story


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>There isn't any reason that something similar couldn't be done in the context of a superhero story

Which used to happen kinda, as you can see in the GL/GA panels above, and these old Captain America panels. IMO, these kinds of things (as liberal as they are/were) were more likely/possible before, but I doubt there's much room in the American comics industry for people that seriously question the way things are, or why. I don't think Disney executives would really be happy if their valuable properties were used to question the validity of sweatshops in Asia or the petroleum industry or that kind of thing.

Also, bonus WW fighting the patriarchy :^)



>I wish they'd stop holding so tightly to the status quo and actually explore how the world would or could change by introducing this Super technology. It's the same thing that bothers me about the MVU. Every time the world takes a turn for the interesting or the speculative it's just a set up for it to get knocked down and returned to the status quo.

this is my biggest problem with capeshit. Once you strip away the aliens and mad scientists both DC and Marvel earth are virtually identical to the real world. You would think with all the super geniuses running around at someone would have tried reverse-engineering and mass-marketing super technology to people. And considering that people know for a fact that magic and gods exist but still act like people irl do is just a missed opportunity for storytelling.

Honestly i think most writers are too lazy to consider the implications of just how a superhero filled universe would function. Even when you get stories set in the future society is still structured exactly like modern day America.

I vaguely remember reading DC one million and how it was mentioned that in the future humans have crossbred with alien races and superheroes so much that everyone has superpowers. That would have been a cool concept to explore.



>I wish they'd stop holding so tightly to the status quo and actually explore how the world would or could change by introducing this Super technology. It's the same thing that bothers me about the MVU. Every time the world takes a turn for the interesting or the speculative it's just a set up for it to get knocked down and returned to the status quo.

this is my biggest problem with capeshit. Once you strip away the aliens and mad scientists both DC and Marvel earth are virtually identical to the real world. You would think with all the super geniuses running around at someone would have tried reverse-engineering and mass-marketing super technology to people. And considering that people know for a fact that magic and gods exist but still act like people irl do is just a missed opportunity for storytelling.

Honestly i think most writers are too lazy to consider the implications of just how a superhero filled universe would function. Even when you get stories set in the future society is still structured exactly like modern day America.

I vaguely remember reading DC one million and how it was mentioned that in the future humans have crossbred with alien races and superheroes so much that everyone has superpowers. That would have been a cool concept to explore.


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>And considering that people know for a fact that magic and gods exist but still act like people irl do is just a missed opportunity for storytelling.

I agree, and actually, thank you for reminding me about something.

A storyline I really enjoyed before Avengers Disassembled involved a bunch of oppressed East Europeans praying to Thor to save them from getting ethnically purged. Thor hears their prayers, and so he goes and intervenes to protect the worshipers. Of course, soviet-surplus weaponry is no match for Thor and the gang.

This has the natural effect of destabilizing the whole region and making a lot of other dictators nervous, and the US doesn't take kindly to it either. Iron Man gets sent in to talk Thor down, who of course gets pissed that Tony is intervening on behalf of a genocidal warlord bent on eradicating people who out of desperation turned to Thor for help, because no one else would. Tony babbles some moralizing crap and they fight, blah blah. Thor is eventually convinced to leave, and in the aftermath it turns out that Doctor Doom engineered the whole thing so and swoops in to "restore order" over this country which was bordering Latveria.

So, of course it returns to the status quo at the end and is full of liberal moralizing ("Who gave you the right to intervene in human affairs?!" sort of shit iirc), but I really liked the idea. I just wish they'd do more of that and actually make it stick instead of slavishly holding to the status quo.



Heroes are supposed to be audience surrogates at least in part. Other than that they're supposed to be paragons, which usually means the humanzing edges get shaved off. Villains are supposed to be flawed and in some sense failures. Zizek himself has pointed out that we love people for their flaws. Villains are much more plausible and actually relatable while heroes are supposed to be closer to a blank canvas onto which we can project.

Heroes also have to adhere to certain social standards, many of which are far from perfect. The dissonance between the supposed heroism and the kind of shitty ideals (think of batman and his no killing and no guns faggotry) makes the heroes come off as kind of stilted. Meanwhile villains are allowed to have more internally consistent beliefs and come into conflict with society (also relatable). Heroes in this sense are almost always conservative or reactionary, preserving the status quo for good or ill. Villains have the freedom to run the political gamut.


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Those Cap pics are pretty awesome. It's the kind of rage that can lead someone to merely be a socdem, or perhaps further down the line of denying capitalism. I'm saving them, thx bro.



I like that pic with Supes and Pa. Pa's kind of early 20th century folksy wisdom reminds me of groups like the IWW and other radical worker movements that saw Socialist ideas as simple and obvious.


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I like it, too. Some people like to shit on Ross because he's mad gay for the retro motif, which isn't exactly wrong, but I think he really succeeds in capturing the idealized superhero in moments like this.


I really should try and dig up copies of these old issues to see what else I can find. IIRC Cap was resurrected in the 60s for just that purpose: to pillory modern America for failing to live up to its ideals. I saved these ages ago from some /co/ thread I think, and I seem to remember there being more.



<It's not afraid to be dramatic

<takes advantage of the medium by showing instead of telling


<All the faithfulness, imagery, parallels and homages

<It's also ironic that DC being so far the more "grounded" of the two does not shy away from fantastic imagery

<Doomsday felt like a legitimate threat

<There was character development

<Batman stole the show

<Lex was great too

<There's the whole theme of mothers and Lois the love interest is actually a character and has things to do

All these reasons and more are why I love BvS so much. It is without a doubt a fucking masterpiece, my dude. Zack Snyder is too good for this world.

If I may add in a few things you probably did miss, or at least didn't go into further detail on…

As a lot of people have mentioned in this thread already, heroes are rarely in a position to ever question the status quo, and are more likely to preserve it, while the villain is doing more shaking things up and is therefore more interesting. We have an entirely different narrative going on in BvS, one that is indeed quite critical of modern society, perhaps even to a socioeconomic degree, though it's quite intelligently subtle in the "show don't tell" manner that Snyder more than perfects in his fantastic direction. The beginning of the DCEU is meant to critically observe the elements of our own flawed, near-broken society, and how they affect these great heroes we cherish so much. Saving the entire world from certain annihilation seems not to be enough for everyone to be appreciative of what Superman's done for them; half of the world decides to go the reactionary path and blame Superman himself for the wanton destruction that ensued from the Black Zero attack on Metropolis, even though it obviously wasn't his fault. People's prejudices begin to stir, and as much good as Superman tries to do for humanity, as hard as he tries to live up to being that beacon of hope Jor-El claimed he was destined to be, these negative responses weigh quite heavily on Superman's conscience. He becomes less sure of himself and finds less validity to his purpose as the naysayers continue to heckle him. Don't get me wrong, identity crises are nothing new to superhero stories, but this is the first time I've seen one that connects society itself in with the narrative, so that it's not only quite epic in scale, not only far more significant than smaller-scale peer pressure or even singularly isolated psychological insecurity, but that it's critical of the society involved, showing the consequences of their actions in how they affect the mood shifts and actions of one as significant as Superman. It doesn't outright say it, but it's subtly suggesting, "Hey, if the way our society is has this kind of effect on Superman, maybe we should change it so that it's not so bad?"

Lex… holy Jesus fuck, Lex. Talk about Porky incarnate. Finally, a villain that actually IS evil, in a believable manner. I, as well as many, had my doubts about Jesse Eisenberg's take on Lex, worrying that he'd just be Zuckerberging it the whole way through. In a way, he kinda does, but it's still VERY distinctly Lex, while being a fresh, new approach to the character in what is clearly his proto-stage. We've already had a more Porky-esque Lex in the comics and animated endeavors of DC, but we've had yet to see one in film. This most certainly IS a Porky worthy of cinematic villainy. He pulls so many strings for his sociopathic self-interest, and with apparent ease, seeming to know everything and everyone inside and out. He kinda has to be in this day and age in order to maintain his highly bourgeois status, which is a frighteningly realistic reflection of the bourgeoisie that looms over us in reality. I swear, the scene where he rigged that guy's wheelchair to bomb the congressional hearing so that Superman would be blamed for it… As I mentioned before in this thread, Superman is my #1 favorite superhero. I have LOVED this guy ever since Man of Steel swayed me over to his favor. So to see something so downright, despicably, heartlessly EVIL done to poor Supes in that scene… I have never felt legitimate hatred for any villain of any movie before quite like I felt for Jesse Eisenberg's Lex Luthor in that particular scene. I wanted to punch his smug Porky face in until it bled the next frame I saw it. I had never been that emotionally invested in fiction in a very long time. The writing to that film in addition to Jesse's compelling performance played me like a fucking fiddle.



On a smaller note, in the Ultimate Edition, we see a lot more investigative journalism from Lois and Clark, both going out on their own to look into cases they feel like they should be investigating, despite Perry White's orders to publish the "right" kind of information to the public. Considering how fucking dead honest journalism is these days, in pretty much any medium you look into (newspapers, news channels, news websites, pundit shows, radio broadcasts, even fucking movie review sites), it's really quite inspiring to see legitimate journalism be shown in such an encouraging light by a film such as this. In the back of my mind, I personally dearly hope that the next great journalist of the near future will be inspired by the Ultimate Edition of BvS, and will inform the public of truths that may shatter the establishment as we know it. Wouldn't that be wonderful?




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Oh this could be coo-


Oh. Nevermind.



I see how Luthor hates superman from a elite point if view. You can do whatever you want; hurt who you want or force people to 2hat you want and buy what you want but you will never have real power like a man who can tank a nuke face first or can lift bridges like toothpicks.

I can make an army wreck a city! Who fucking cares superman just blew up a meteor while you stew in your false pretend power to bribe desperate individuals and manipulate morons.

Like pol it's hard to pretend to be superior due to your money and bloodlines when that man can crush mountains with his hands and what does he do with his godlike power?

He helps mankind with his abilities like the ones Luthor deems less than dog shit and it infuriates him.

If there were super-powered people in real life it wouldn't matter if these people were no threat to capitalism in any way and were saints with not a speck of dust on them the elite would try to kill them and if they couldn't kill them then demonize them; destroy their loves ones and make their lives unlivable not out of fear but spite because they would wake up everyday and be hit with the paradox that they are superior but these super powered freaks can perform wonders that they can't.



Sorry for the errors on my phone.


Robot chicken is the best version of superman.

He disrespects batman every week and shits on luthor even if he is gay.






Damn wrong one.

He even fucks batman and makes him gay.



Robot Chicken Batman is also great. He completes the comedic Batman holy trinity:

>Robot Chicken Batman

>HISHE Batman

>Lego Batman

It's even quite arguable that the first two Batmen helped in the creative conception of Lego Batman.


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>Complains about capeshit

>Posts a capeshit meme


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Ah, right. Villains. The way they're treated in MoS and BvS are much more respectful than what I see in most of MCU. Although Zod and Lex are not really sympathetic, I feel they're so much more closer in spirit to Raimi's Spider-Man antagonists who are pretty much all tragic. Kal did not celebrate killing Zod, who was raging after losing everything he had worked for. Lex is unceremoniously imprisoned, stripped of all his resources which had allowed his dangerous mind to cause so much damage. Both were proper responses, physically and emotionally, to the threat that each posed.

The worst thing happened at the end of Dr. Strange, which I was enjoying up to that point. So lets laugh at a guy that goes to experience literal hell eternally because of a deal HE made. What a hero. In contrast, I quite liked Ultron and its(?) quirks despite the messy film and its final moments with Vision had feeling.

Another aspect of BvS that I love is how much context it put by actually showing the ordinary person's perception/experience of the heroes and their actions. The most prominent example is Metropolis' destruction with Jack, Wally and Bruce himself along with all the other bystanders. Another is the amazing horror-esque Batman reveal with that one cop. There's a video comparing this to Civil War which really showed how it did nothing much to give the people a voice even though it too was supposed to deal with the issue of public worry.

Also, am I the only one that feels the issue of Batman killing is as overblown as the destruction of Metropolis in MoS? Yes, no doubt a few do die from his assaults but it never seemed to me that he's actively killing as much as just not caring for the livelihood of random thugs.


divinity by Valiant comics deals with communist superheroes (third volume more)



That was a story line in I think ultimate fantastic four where everyone on the world became a super hero besides The Thing who got turned back into a normal person (all Ben ever wanted) and all kinds of shenanigans happen. think it was just for an issue though.



what do you want



Absolutely true, m8. Same all the way. DC knows how to do villains the right way. When MCU villains aren't totally forgettable garbage, they're little more than joke vessels. They're at least fairly entertaining, granted, but that doesn't automatically make them good villains. The depth and threat level is done away with in favor of sucking a chuckle out of the MCUcks.

try saying that 5 times fast

There's really no contest between BvS and Civil War. I fell in love with BvS the first time watching it, and kept finding more reasons to love and defend it from that point onward. Civil War was okay at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I hated it. I might hate it even more than Iron Man 3, come to think of it. Civil War is horseshit. It's insulting and idiotic on so many levels. I could go on forever about this.

Yes. Yes. FUCKING YES DUDE. Batman killing is SO damn overblown. Nu- Batfags just love to sperg over how he'd "NEVA DOO DAT", but these inbred mouthbreathers don't actually read any fucking comic books, so they don't realize that Batman used to kill ALL THE TIME in the Golden Age, and the only reason the "no-kill rule" was ever implemented was to comply with the Comics Code Authority or whatever it is. Plus, Batman has killed SO many people in the Tim Burton movies, Batman Forever, AND Batman Begins, and nobody bat a fucking eye to ANY of that. These faggots have literally NO right to whine about Batman killing when he's already killed people so many times in the past right in front of their dumbfuck faces. It pisses me off to absolutely no end.



You still offering drawings?


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>There's really no contest between BvS and Civil War. I fell in love with BvS the first time watching it



But it's true. It's almost as good as Suicide Squad. The incoherent, jumbled pacing and editing of SS makes us feel what it's like to be part of the incoherent, jumbled Squad making it pure kino.


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Fuck off, both of you. You obviously didn't see the Ultimate Edition of BvS or the Extended Cut of Suicide Squad.

And even if I didn't like them, they would STILL be better than the sloppy liberal mess that is Civil War. Fuck that horseshit.



We live in a world where the main setpiece of a movie with "Civil War" in its title is lauded for being "fun". I'll admit that the last fight was tense, thinking that something really bad was gonna happen. But it didn't. Tony had so much potential after Avengers. Now his irritating voice ruins the most meaningful scene in Homecoming.

I can only hope capitalism doesn't erode the genre any further. Justice Union, or whatever form it may take, needs to happen. Real issues with real resolution. Status quo is a supervillain. But how?


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>But how?

Who can really say, my friend? But I at least know how we can start.

… Inspire hope.

The people are as desperate as they ever have been in this day and age. The American working class was desperate to the point of voting in a politically incompetent capitalist pig, the very type of person making their lives so miserable to begin with, because the so-called "for the people" Democrats had alienated them in favor of power in office and superficial popularity. What the people need more than anything is hope. Hope that a better society than the one they live in, the one relentlessly fucking them over, is entirely possible, and that if we stand united against our oppressors, we can make it happen.

"They can be a great people if they wish to be. They only lack the light to show them the way."

"You will give the people of Earth an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."

Except our Superman won't come from a dying planet. He'll come through our hearts.

WE are Superman.

Let's go save the world, comrades.


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Wow leftypol is total soyboy home ground. Keep your hope, real men rely on devotion.



Pacific Rim would be great leftist commentary. The governments literally fail to combat a global threat because their economic system can't be tooled to fight without capital.

War communism would've been more effective.




Imma fill both of you soyboys with my hammer and sickle.



Fat chance. Last two commies I met, I fucked in the ass. No joke. Nice sweet community hole. Hahaha they didn't even leave when I showed them my swastika collection because commies love alt right dick.





Nazi are pretty shit thought tbh Tankies are much more attractive with all that authoritarian leftism



Yeah I'm not a nazi, I'm altright. The swastika is the most charged magical symbol atm so that's why I use it. Hey I'm not complaining the commies were hot. But those gay SS soldiers get me every time.



>Shit tier alt right

>Not glorious tankie Swole Prole

Pathetic, Im loyal to the cause


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Just make her into something like Emma Goldman. She's not a third wave feminist at least and she is leftist.

Not who would be the personification of Hoxha's philosophie.



Hadn't heard the term Tankie before thought it was like twink at first. Either way between the sheets or on the streets I'll own your ass.



Ill throw a firebomb at you fash



Not before you sit on my face


Man I hate batman so much.

I was watching an episode of justice league unlimited about this girl named ace who accidentally killed her parents with her out of control psychic powers, the government takes her in and fucking experiments on her to turn her into a weapon they can use, she ends up captured by another government group(amanda walker) and then finally being *rescued* by the joker who she saw as a friend only for him to be using her as a pawn.

Girl finds out she has a brain aneurysm from her powers and she is going to die.

Batman asks her to undo the damage she did and tells the girl he can identify with her being alone as he lost his family.

Literally had to turn that shit into a jerk batman off scene. Read the above and Bruce is fucking rich and all his suffering is shit he inflicted on himself.

I would have spit in batman's face and mind raped his ass just for the hell of it if that was me in my position. He truly is the hero of the rich.



… Its a children's cartoon…




Read a book and fuck off.















None of this should exist. All of this was terrible and I'd give an hour of my life to forget this chain.



So Joker as neo-nazi reactionary celebrite performing high profile terror to "prove" that proles are evil and you need muh stronk state



Reminder that in the Nolan canon joker wins




You guys can't demand that much intellectual depth out of a capeshit cartoon for boys 8-12



Why not?


>devotion without hope

Pretty sure there's a word for people like that.


>uprising first look

>trailer VERY soon

Oh god. I'm not ready.


The rich guy out to "protect his city" most known for his intimidation tactics is recipe for fascism, intended or not. Anarchist Batman seems to be the way to go. Which is funny to say since I think that's what the persona is to begin with. It's Bruce (and how much he seeps through) that sticks out.

Perhaps instead of removing that dynamic entirely, we could reverse it. Rather than have the Batman be something that he has to avoid embracing fully for whatever reason, it's whatever is left of his idealism and faith in the system depite his experiences outside of it as Batman that prevents him from aiming for something more radical (and meaningful). Maybe we can go the Nite Owl route but with a bit of Rorschach's instability considering his backstory. That's all I have with what little I know.



Those Watchmen characteristics would work really well in an anarchist Batman. I'm baffled as to why Alan Moore completely missed that golden opportunity to write Batman in that manner, considering the fact that he's an anarchist himself.



Modern heroes are reactionary by nature. They never strive to change the world, only to preserve the status quo from the villains who seek to change it. They never act, only react. This is a purposeful change too, as old stories like Odyssey or Hercules had the hero set out on some epic quest to achieve something and the villains served as hindrance to this endeavor, whereas in modern superhero tales it's exactly reversed.



The Nite Owl / Rorschach conflicts could be adapted almost directly to a Bruce Wayne / Batman version. Nite Owl is the idealistic version of the role he's trying to play. Rorschach is the version he becomes when the chips are down and his idealism buts up against reality (i.e. when prep time wasn't good enough). Sort of the "Batman grabs a gun" moment where the idealist facade falls away and he goes from Batman the master gadgeteer and world's greatest detective to Batman the messy but effective improvisor and martial artist.


The Odyssey is not the best example of a proactive hero. The entire story is about Odysseus trying to get home and restore things to how they were before he left to fight in the Trojan War.



Is that really true for heroes in general, or just for comic book superheroes that are working in a continuity that needs to support multiple stories indefinitely?

When you don't plan an ending you want each individual storyline to end with the world being approximately the same way as it begins, not (necessarily) because you're against change in principle but because that's the only feasible way to execute the format.

Moore's Miracleman, for example ( >>>/storytime/2532 ) is one of the least reactionary things I've read. And that's possible because it has a real ending.

If you want to have an indefinite episodic format your protagonist needs to either have reactionary goals or fail all the time.



T. Copypasta



posadist Martian manhunter ofc



Marvel/Miracleman is fucking tops. Everyone should read it.


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> picture

I can't even tell if they aren't just taking the piss anymore. Are they all actually master trolls snickering at us idiots who actually believe that something as embarrassingly stupid as ancapism could possibly have followers in real life? This shit just cannot be true. Nobody would come with this get-up if their explicit goal wasn't publicly humiliating themselves.


anuddah shoah



the punisher was at its absolute peak with MAX, when the capeshit was completely gone


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"In America, comic is read! In Soviet Russia, comic is RED!"


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>I am an ennisfag who has never touched a Funisher book that wasn't written by my irish edgelord



Oh sweet Christ, I forgot that "in Soviet Russia" jokes even existed. They were funny in 9th grade, but I completely forgot about them after becoming a full-on communist.

Should we have a different thread about these entirely?


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"So uh I heard you guys were talking about super heroes.."



Unless it's really long and important to you, we don't have to kill another thread. Besides, I'm just here to complain about having to deal with /pol/-types in Pacific Rim threads of all places. I can't get a discussion going thanks to just how anxious people are with the director change AND the main character being black. Shit.

How is it going in Justice League threads?



Aw man, that sucks ass. Terribly sorry for you there, man. You're more than welcome to speak as freely as you like here without being bogged down by /pol/-tier autism. Be my guest.

I can definitely tell you that Justice League threads are NOT going well in /co/. They're infected with negative-Nancy MCUcks bitching and moaning about all the typical shit you'd expect from the likes of them, i.e. "the CGI looks like shit", "muh Hack Snyder", the list goes on. It's fucking insufferable to the point that even /tv/ threads about Justice League have a better chance of legitimate discussion instead of being just one big hateboner circlejerk, if only due to those meme-addicted fuckheads spamming shit like how Zack Snyder lifts; not that I don't appreciate that about one of my personal favorite film directors, but the fact that /tv/ is literally as shallow as to find that the only positive about Justice League (one that's very loosely connected, if at all) is nothing short of aggravating.





batman is a fundamentally fascist character. he exists to police the boundaries of society and brutalize the outcasts.


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Thankfully the ooga booga posting died down. Negativity still abound which is understandable. Just imagine Zack getting pulled out of Justice League before it was even made. Man, with all the recent excitement I completely forgot how much shit you get for liking him. I admire how he can blend a competent story with unapologetic, stylish visuals and it's hard to believe that plenty don't. Him working with Del Toro would be something.

I find myself really enjoying films with less dialogue focus like The Revenant, both Blade Runners, Drive and such. Just sinking into the ambience. It was nice to get some of that in BvS too, intense as it was. Now to wait for mecha and kaiju ones…


I think any superhero can be fascist if you dumb them down enough.


>war communism

How is that?

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