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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Tags: leftism (CLICK HERE FOR MORE LEFTIST 8CHAN BOARDS), politics, activism, news

File: f6f84b088aca537⋯.jpeg (22.89 KB, 400x400, 1:1, 395847d5f7b617e88f6330d1b….jpeg)

 No.2072804

>reform justice system to be based more directly on causing harm rather then on soft victim-less "moral" crimes

>prisoners can now be said to deserve to be removed from society for a set amount of time

>see outrages costs of price per prison

>force them into doing manual labor such as construction, mining, basic agriculture

>perhaps even expand and allow minimum risk prisoners into doing more delicate roles such as working in retirement care facilities and public building janitorial work

>present idea of prisoners being forced to repay their debt to society to group of socialist friends

>all of them agree it's slavery 2.0 and i'm a terrible person for suggesting it

>point out how Stalin's gulags had similar forced labor

>mfw there are people who believe this would be evil

how is this a disputed issue? assuming that a justice system is repaired, why should criminals not be made to work for the majority of their waking hours.

 No.2072812

American prisons are already labor camps except American prisons are for the purpose of generating profit


 No.2072829

>reform justice system to be based more directly on causing harm rather then on soft victim-less "moral" crimes

>prisoners can now be said to deserve to be removed from society for a set amount of time

Neither of those things are true.

Plus what he >>2072812 said. The purpose of American prisons is superexploitation and nothing else.


 No.2072835

Reminder: https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/06/16/no-equal-justice/prison-litigation-reform-act-united-states

>present idea of prisoners being forced to repay their debt to society to group of socialist friends

>all of them agree it's slavery 2.0 and i'm a terrible person for suggesting it

>point out how Stalin's gulags had similar forced labor

How exactly did you come to the conclusion that gulags were a counterpoint to that

>prisoners have to "repay" a "debt to society"

Porky get out


 No.2072837

So the people who make or enforce the laws also have the ability to force people into doing free labor?


 No.2072892

>>2072837

yes, that's how capitalism works


 No.2072906

File: d14245615be4b8a⋯.png (268.47 KB, 639x360, 71:40, eternal anglo.png)

Switching from morality to harm wouldn't make that much of a difference. You first have to ask yourself what a harm is. If you only mean physical harm, you still have reason to criminalize minor drug offenses for example. If you mean mental harm (not just emotional distress), you have a case for victimless crimes like consensual prostitution. If moral outrage is a harm, then applying a harm principle basically does nothing. Moral outrage is a kind of emotional distress. You can be liable for causing certain emotional distress based on reasoning and history which ties common law about emotional distress to assault and then to battery, and then you could probably trace it back to writs of trespass or something so the idea that emotional distress is at least sometimes a harm has deep ties in the Anglo's history. You'd have to fundamentally change how people saw the world before applying a harm principle to make it useful.

Anglo: 1 billion

Black kids with weed in their pocket and sex positive feminist prostitutes: 0


 No.2073710

>>2072906

I mean harm by the traditional John Locke definition, more specifically, causing any sort of harm to another person, you taking drugs doesn't effect the people around you, and consensual prostitution is exactly that, consensual, no party can argue that they were harmed by the other person in the act. you can't claim that moral outrage is real if morals aren't real. And things such as trespassing laws were there to protect porky interests from the start. But you are right that before a system could make a switch to a criminal system like this there would first have to be a fundamental change in people's perception of society and order

>>2072835

i didn't use that as a counterpoint, they used it as evidence against me

>wanting murders to help repair a broken road in an effort to give back the working hours they took from the person they killed makes me porky

explain

>>2072829

assuming they were i mean, how would forced prison labor be a bad thing


 No.2073816

>>2072804

That is slavery and you are a terrible person. Any justice system which intentionally causes people to suffer beyond the absolute minimum possible (yes, slavery is suffering) is not deserving of the word "justice".

It's ultimately a matter of ethics, so I can't prove that people shouldn't be enslaved any more than you can prove that you shouldn't be burned alive. I'll just do everything in my power to make sure you never get your way.

On a philosophical note, I don't believe humans have free will and hence the concepts of blame and responsibility are absurd. The idea of free will is inconsistent with every single respected model of physics. There is zero evidence for any kind of moral soul governing our choices, and every reason to believe they are the result of random quantum processes which the individual in question obviously cannot control. You might as well enslave people based on the outcome of dice rolls.


 No.2074460

>>2073816

Philosophically, looking at mill's harm principle we have every right as a society to punish someone who causes harm to an equal or less extent. Currently our punishment for a murder is to let them sit and rot for a few years in a prison, why can't we turn this into something that is far more productive for the community, this is slavery but this is slavery they have placed themselves is

>free will not being real means justice system is a joke

literally how? even if we are to consider the Aristotelian view that every action has a cause and effect therefore we can't say we have free will, the purpose of the majority of justice is to protect society from certain individuals, punishment for the criminal and safety for the community.


 No.2078744

OP, despite what you say about victimless crimes, you somehow manage to talk about the issue this way:

>There is a given amount of convicted criminals. How can we make the best of the situation?

The people who disagree with you are looking at it this way: Crime is constantly defined and redefined and what appropriate punishment is gets constantly changed. We live in a very hierarchical society where these questions are basically set by a very small group. The opportunity of making money from forced labor incentivizes this group to expand what they label crime and to expand what they consider proper punishment.

I suppose you understand that. In that case, you have to communicate clearly how to minimize that problem and make this an essential part of the reform you propose.


 No.2078750

>>2072804

it's slavery you piece of shit. ideally prisoners would be able to maintain the same wages and work hours as they do outside of prison.


 No.2080178

Socialism without Gulags are automatically revisionist


 No.2082402

File: aa8589c3010fba4⋯.jpg (68.84 KB, 598x792, 299:396, CluNG2MUsAA99U2.jpg)

>>2078744

yeah i feel i haven't made my point clear enough, assuming that we do live in some sort of socialist paradise where crime is defined first and foremost to protect and serve the workers, or at least removing the profit motive of prison labor, how could forced worker for convicted criminals be a bad thing. Consider for instance a murder, by killing another person they have stole from the community the hours that person would of worked, mandatory labor is simply making them repay these hours

>>2078750

pic related

>>2080178

assuming socialism


 No.2082407

File: fb1984d6bc11362⋯.png (268.12 KB, 451x601, 451:601, stirnerholdingspooks.png)

>>2073816

Justice is a spook.


 No.2082408

>>2072804

so, you want to force people to work to repay their "debt" to "society". it is slavery with zero extra steps.


 No.2082411

>>2073816

being able to do whatever the fuck you want and be able to hold and discard opinions at will is pretty fucking hard to explain with "muh physics and sheit"




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