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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

A collective of people engaged in pretty much what the name suggests
Winner of the 75nd Attention-Hungry Games
/caco/ - Azarath Metrion Zinthos

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File: ef60ae8bc307cb9⋯.jpeg (30.27 KB, 500x382, 250:191, F5C2C68C-2AF9-4C97-B6AC-4….jpeg)

 No.2827083

Surely I can’t be the only one here who stands for the burgeoning of the surveillance state under the control of the proletariat? While the surveillance state under the control of the bourgeoisie has reactionary intentions, under proletarian control it is operated to extirpate reactionaries and counterrevolution alike. Thus we have the concept of the Proletarian Panopticism, transferred from Bentham’s prison to the whole of society. From factories, to schools and beyond this system should be applied for the general good and likewise for anti-counterrevolutionary purposes. The latter is of course desirable, but why for schools and workplaces? This is the beauty of the panoptic effect – an eye which can observe without being seen. An eye known to all, but no one knows when and if it watches from above. It is all-seeing and omnipresent, creating the semblance of God. The best surveillance is where one polices themselves, and what better way than through the pervasive methods described above? Discipline in schools would become the norm, labor productivity would sky-rocket, capitalists could be located and weeded out as soon as they are detected. In our modern technological society the once-unthinkable has become possible, the construction of a truly impregnable proletarian state is possible, a state where dissent can be located before the would-be dissenter themselves knows of their possible dissent.

 No.2827086

So you are basically saying extreme surveillance it's good when absolutely everyone can be surveilled? even those who surveil? i guess i agree.


 No.2827088

1984 was a shitty critique of Stalinism, not a manual


 No.2827093

please kill yourself

i could hardly call a surveillance state "proletarian" because it subjects the proletariat to fear and subjugation

fuck off, the best way to deal with counterrevolutionaries shouldn't involve getting innocent people caught up in it all


 No.2827094

>>2827088

1984 wasn’t the originator of this concept and the book as a whole plays off liberal stereotypes of “muh totalitarianism”. The benefits of this type of technology heavily outweight the negatives of the construction of socialism. If you’re doing nothing wrong and are true to the ideals of the revolution there is no need to fear the panopticon.


 No.2827096

>>2827094

How does the whole "if you are doing nothing wrong you shouldn't worry" differ from a capitalist surveillance state excuse for surveillance?


 No.2827102

>>2827096

it doesn't, that's the problem


 No.2827103

File: 494d7f5ab9126c3⋯.png (141.82 KB, 435x439, 435:439, miriam godwinson why didnt….png)

>>2827083

>In our modern technological society the once-unthinkable has become possible, the construction of a truly impregnable proletarian state is possible, a state where dissent can be located before the would-be dissenter themselves knows of their possible dissent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwqN3Ur-wP0

Chairman Yang PLS GO.


 No.2827105

>>2827093

Fear and subjugation? Hardly. The proletarian state is by definition democratic to the extreme, this is no “subjugation”. Surveillance of this kind will induce a state of conscious and permanent visibility that assure the automatic functioning of power. Correct behavior will become habit, then second nature.

>b-but muh human nature

>>2827096

One form of surveillance is in the favor of exploitative and reactionary ideology, the proletarian state is, as I’ve said, highly democratic and under the control of the proletariat (in a truer sense than has historically occurred, ideally) and is utilized in service of the construction of socialism


 No.2827107

>>2827105

ah yes, true liberation is when everyone is subject to a surveillance state

it's funny how people who come to imageboards to (presumably) be anonymous come up with hot takes like this


 No.2827111

>>2827083

Nah, fuck that. It's not the workers that should be under surveillance, it's the party.

Place two to five cams in each room of the communist party HQ and have a 24/7 live broadcast. General secretary shouldn't be able to take a shit without the proletariat knowing about it.


 No.2827117

>>2827107

I say this stuff in real life, for I know its beneficial effects if put into practice. I find the entire concept beautiful, actually, it fills me with a feeling of joy. Like I’ve said, the old adage rings true where if you’re doing nothing wrong there’s no need for fear. Why are you afraid of being watched by a dictatorship of the proletariat with the interests of all in its very conception? Liberal remnants or something to hide, clearly. The only things the panopticon will fail to “liberate” is reaction and counterrevolution. There will be no freedom for them

>>2827111

The beneficial effects are far more interesting than surveillance for the sake of surveillance. Only reactionaries need have fear


 No.2827123

>>2827117

just don't say these things out loud, okay? can't get people on your side by talking about the stereotype of communist dictatorships violating your privacy all the time.


 No.2827126

>>2827123

>just don't say these things out loud, okay?

It actually wins many people over, believe it or not. Mass-surveillance in the service of good has limitless potential, not for maintaining socialist hegemony alone but for the many other social reasons which have been outlined previously in this very thread. It is cowardice to hide your opinions. The only opinions which should be kept to oneself are those which you cannot properly back up with arguments or facts.


 No.2827131

>>2827126

it's good you're making your public views known so real communists could kick your ass


 No.2827136

>>2827131

You are offering me a lot of emotional bluster, but little substance. Is this the power of Mao Zedong Thought? My ass has yet to have been kicked, quite the opposite. Many of the comrades I know IRL were at first skeptical, but now they too see the many merits of this imperative proposal.


 No.2827137

>>2827136

how the fuck? did you surveil your entire party and they were all like "oh shit man i'm glad we kicked mike who would've thought he was a CIA nigger we should have noticed since he was very glowy that one night thank you based /pol/ pot comrade you saved us from idpol by putting all of those cameras in the bathroom"


 No.2827138

>>2827136

look you're probably being an Epic Troll but could you at least not be completely retarded on here you dipshit revisionist


 No.2827142

>>2827138

>revisionist

And so appears the lack of argument.

>>2827137

Discussion would quickly bring to light the benefits of this system. It seems the mods of anchored this though, further damaging this slowing board. Moralism has no place in Marxism and anyone against this truly misunderstands the purpose of the dictatorship of the proletariat


 No.2827243

unanchored bump.


 No.2827254

>>2827142

Can you bring the light to the benefits that outweigh the nightmareish totalitarianism then, you beutiful turboautist?

Last time I checked it wasn't the wrong think of proles that brought down USSR, but revisionism and opportunistic machinations within the party.


 No.2827272

>capitalists could be located and weeded out as soon as they are detected.

Completely foolproof and not at all dystopic.

Not like this is the exact same argument China is using yet the billionaires don't seem concerned while the proles are losing social credit for not looking at ads, hmmmmm.


 No.2827273

File: 48fdff7f54d97db⋯.png (200.04 KB, 555x555, 1:1, NROL-39NothingIsBeyondOurR….png)

>>2827083

I wonder who is behind this post?


 No.2827278

>>2827254

>Can you bring the light to the benefits

Many of the benefits were already summarized in the OP. Of course we have the obvious goal of curbing counterrevolution from both within and without, but there is also the stated “panoptic effect.” At any time they would be subject to observation, but due to the nature of the system it is impossible to know when or if you are being watched. The watcher can see all. The watched, not knowing whether he is being watched but aware that he could be being watched, will behave as if he is being watched. This is the semblance of God. Subject to this constant feeling of surveillance in all areas from factories, the streets and in educational facilities (as a few examples), the would-be counterrevolutionary or slacker is, after a short time exposed to this state of events, forced to conform. The best people can be molded this way – people loyal to the revolution, people diligent in work and study, people not lazy and active. Yes, it is “totalitarian” by design, but the power of its universal scope and totalizing embrace is its very power. Everyone is bound, hand and foot to the logic of this panoptic apparatus. Used for the construction of socialism, the construct of the communistic man, the homo sovieticus becomes truly possible


 No.2827281

>>2827272

One man’s dystopia is another’s utopia


 No.2827290

File: 5db9b8ac05d7826⋯.jpg (20.81 KB, 465x260, 93:52, peoples panop 1.jpg)

File: 64efaf754116a37⋯.jpg (124.45 KB, 273x400, 273:400, peoples panop 2.jpg)

File: aedbfd4b04f9035⋯.jpg (130.75 KB, 308x400, 77:100, peoples panop 3.jpg)

>>2827083

'Ate reactionaries

'Ate revisionists

Love the Peoples Eye

Love the Peoples Ear

Simple as.


 No.2827301

>>2827278

This is a shity idea, no one would support it.


 No.2827306

File: 85d91648b4f5c47⋯.png (196.66 KB, 620x400, 31:20, humancentipede2banner.png)

>>2827278

Not to be rude, I really like reading your posts, but if your system of governance requires such a pervasive repression apparatus, that's a pretty good indicator that your system is fucked. It's not the average citizen we should be worrying about but people in positions of power ie. party members. Stalin had the right idea with the purges, he just went a bit overboard.

We want to abolish exploitation and class, not create a cult of braindead drones ruled with fear. Pictured: your idea of collectivism.


 No.2827310

Slavery advocacy is why “lefty”pol is such a shallow, uncreative fake. Learn truth, you miserable slagbags. Reality is the most persuasive thing of all - it’s powerful, beautiful, and kind.

There are so many problems with this concept that some fascist punt just tried to fake into leftist thought. Firstly, the unseen eye can’t be wielded by the proletariat. Secondly, sousveillance is so reliably opposed by surveillance that sousvellors oppose each other, even though the practices are of one ethical stature. Thirdly, panopticon societies always collapse. It’s physically impossible to pry limitlessly without hitting the limits of capability, processing, and/or understanding.

Give up the theocratic bullshit and come back to shared materialism.


 No.2827311

>>2827278

The fuck is this shit? Who the fucks need the surveillance system you described if the system works for them? You call that a proletarian dictatorship?


 No.2827314

>>2827301

Are you the same alcoholic trot from the Cuba thread who never offers substantive critiques and just calls things “dumb”?

>>2827306

>We want to abolish exploitation and class

Of course, but there is no need to fear surveillance if you have done nothing wrong. This system functions within the limits of rigorous proletarian democracy, by no means is there on one hand the party with all the power and the people abjectly dependent on them. The party and the people are one and the same. The whole point of using surveillance to inculcate proper behavior conductive to socialism is to ensure the automatic functioning of power. With the panoptic effect the vast majority of people will go through the motions automatically, there is no need for repressive force except as when circumstances call for it.

>I really like reading your posts

Thank you anon, no offense taken at all.


 No.2827317

>>2827306 is not trying to be rude but this has to be dialectic. I will be >>2827306's antithesis (I know thesis-antithesis-synthesis is a misrepresentation, but still) get off /leftypol/ and think about what you said. We need a system you describe if the workers do not have control but are controlled. Then only will they revolt.


 No.2827319

>>2827310

>Slavery advocacy is why “lefty”pol is such a shallow, uncreative fake.

I do not advocate for slavery, as you would know if you took the time to read this thread and my responses. Quite the opposite. Such a knee-jerk reaction is at first natural, until you critically think of the wonderful opportunities this apparatus would provide for the construction of socialism. I was taken-aback at first when I first discovered this concept, but now I am beginning to regard it is as completely necessary and indeed beneficial.

>There are so many problems with this concept that some fascist punt just tried to fake into leftist thought.

Accusing me of fascism is yet another kneejerk reaction. I have over a year of activity on /leftypol/ and moderation, if so inclined, could easily attest to my frequent activity on this board.

>Firstly, the unseen eye can’t be wielded by the proletariat.

I disagree. The dictatorship of the proletariat is the proletariat organized as the ruling class. The ruling class shall wield the power of the panopticon. Not collectively of course.

>Thirdly, panopticon societies always collapse.

There has never been a society constructed how I envision.

>Give up the theocratic bullshit and come back to shared materialism.

I have never advocated for theocracy. Perhaps you read into my metaphor of “semblance of God” too much


 No.2827320

File: feb2b8557e8a90f⋯.jpg (23.86 KB, 400x300, 4:3, recliner of rage.jpg)

>>2827310

>"this thread is why everyone on leftypol sucks"

>literally nobody OP supports retarded proposal

So sick of this, is it you every time? You twat.


 No.2827323

>>2827311

>The fuck is this shit?

It is an apparatus to ensure proletarian hegemony, ideology and the rapid building of the new socialist human.

>You call that a proletarian dictatorship

Indeed. In the Foundations of Leninism Stalin talks of the DoTP waging ruthless war against reaction and counterrevolution. The party is like the general staff of an army. Troops need whipped into the shape, the socialist man molded meticulously away from his bourgeois habits and character. The Eye will accomplish both tasks. I only wish I could see it in action on a grand scale


 No.2827330

>>2827323

> against reaction and counterrevolution

Let me break it down, I don't imply I will be correct but I want to hear your arguments against it.

1. The revolution was waged because we had mass support.

2. We establish DoTP not as a separate class above the proletariat (and peasants) but as THE proletariat themselves.

3. The system is socialism. This is DoTP so this has to work.

4. Proletarian form the majority. The system works for them. This is true democracy. Masses are in control.

5. Counterrevolution why? And even if the counter-revolution is not proletarian in nature, how big then do you think it would be? The proles will take care of it themselves.

> Troops need whipped into the shape

> away from his bourgeois habits and character

As the system changes, wouldn't the stripping away of bourgeois habits and character follow naturally?

I think this proletarian panopticism, even if assumed to be necessary, is just a talk of tactics (short-term solutions roughly). If we are successful in establishing DoTP in the truest sense of that, in conclusion, this tactic becomes useless.


 No.2827332

>>2827330

>proles will take care of it themselves

I want to add that this would be violent of course and that they'd take care of counter revolutions because they are opposed to their interests (and they've established DoTP because they have recognised their interests, full class-consciousness).

Also checkout the Maoist concept of cultural revolution, it takes care of the same thing (revolt, counterrev) but is more democratic. The masses wage that themselves, do not need a surveillance system.


 No.2827341

>>2827330

>1. The revolution was waged because we had mass support.

Ideally. One cannot, especially in the first world, underestimate the power of false-consciousness and the millions of exploiters, their families and all sorts of assorted reactionaries (the religious, etc). But for a revolution to succeed you will need at least a good percentage of the politically active population.

>2. We establish DoTP not as a separate class above the proletariat (and peasants) but as THE proletariat themselves.

Of course. The DoTP can never become a “separate class” so long as it does not exploit the proletariat through owning the means of production – no one in any bureacracy can “own” the MoP, just as how the conductor of an orchestra does not own the instruments.

>3. The system is socialism. This is DoTP so this has to work.

Correct

>4. Proletarian form the majority. The system works for them. This is true democracy. Masses are in control.

Correct

>5. Counterrevolution why? And even if the counter-revolution is not proletarian in nature, how big then do you think it would be? The proles will take care of it themselves.

The DoTP is for the consolidation of socialism and fighting against threats to socialism, from both within and without. I don’t know why there would be a counterrevolution in this scenario, but it is not impossible as history shows. The Russian Civil War was not all landlords and former Tsarist officials fighting against workers and peasants. False consciousness exists. Bourgeois and feudal ideology is not to be underestimated – which is why it must be smashed. In a counterrevolution the DoTP and the working people (as one) would counter the counterrevolution.

>As the system changes, wouldn't the stripping away of bourgeois habits and character follow naturally?

One would expect, but vulgar materialism is unmarxist. Both Hoxha and Pol Pot recognized the need to fight bourgeois habits, character and ideology as a fundamental part of the construction of socialism.

>I think this proletarian panopticism, even if assumed to be necessary, is just a talk of tactics (short-term solutions roughly). If we are successful in establishing DoTP in the truest sense of that, in conclusion, this tactic becomes useless

This tactic would not be permanent, all of this discussion centers around the lower phase of socialism (provided we don’t jumpt straight into Pol Pot-ist barracks communism)


 No.2827344

>In favor of a massive surveillance state

>Pol Pot flag

Yuck


 No.2827347

>>2827344

>can’t formulate an argument against me

Such a common theme on this board. So many retards driven by moralism and knee-jerk reactions. You will sacrifice the end goal in pursuit of a “comfortable” route to socialism. Meanwhile, I look to the glorious future and propose we march forward, never stopping in our way, cutting down and marching over any obstacle in our method, not barring any method, no matter how “totalitarian”, how “brutal”, no matter how many “human rights” must be trampeled upon, because I know the ends justify the means.

I’m sad that I cannot find the quote, but either Pol Pot or another said something the effect of that no matter how many died, socialism could be built in Kampuchea with those who remained. This holds true for the Earth as well


 No.2827348

>>2827341

>vulgar materialism is unmarxist

If I am not wrong, isn't vulgar marxism the belief that only material conditions affect ideas and not the other way round? If that is true, I apologise for this mistake.

> Both Hoxha and Pol Pot recognized the need to fight bourgeois habits, character and ideology as a fundamental part of the construction of socialism.

Of course we are in mutual agreement on this. That is why I recommended that you check out cultural revolution concept.

> false consciousness, no undermine ples

This is a true concern. The bourgeois propaganda machine is really strong. I am a beginner Marxist, so please correct me if wrong, but don't you think all this brainwashing breaks down eventually when what the lies comrades are fed don't match with their reality? Isn't this what we are seeing in the US, with the rise of a left, even if socdem, but that is a good

> both within and without

Yes, Mao talks about it. Having bourgeois infiltration in the party is not as much a problem to revolution as is bourgeois ideology gaining hold among the party members. This is why he stresses the importance of constant struggle against this line, waged by the masses themselves. This is the essence, but of course I have more to read. How to teach the masses to recognize this still I am learning, but I think masses can at least recognize, using their previous experience living under capitalist regimes, where they start to be fucked with. I don't know if people under Khrushchev recognized this, so this lack of knowledge of mine is a strong point for you in this debate.

Do you something to read on your concept as well? Probably arguments against cultural revolution? I think our argument boils down to the fact of whether your idea is needed at all, is its requirement a result of poor execution of DoTP, whether its 'democratic' or not.

I feel I haven't said much, sorry for a long post.


 No.2827349

>>2827347

It's not out of moralism you namefagging twat, no one wants excessive surveillance, much less workers (at least in my country, it's probably the same in the US too). What you do by suggesting this garbage idea is alienating workers and anyone who might be interested in socialism, this is why no one likes us ffs. No one takes you seriously, this is why workers keep voting for rightwing parties, cause because of retards like you we are associated with totalitarianism, surveillance, and censorship. But hey maybe you'll enjoy being spied on by the gov as your uncle rapes you, to each their own.


 No.2827351

>>2827349

I reiterate this concern.


 No.2827354

>>2827348

> If I am not wrong, isn't vulgar marxism the belief that only material conditions affect ideas and not the other way round? If that is true, I apologise for this mistake.

Also, can some comrade draw out the line of balance between material conditions affecting ideas, and ideas affecting material conditions?

I think this statement by Marx holds relevance to my question:

> Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past. The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living. And just as they seem to be occupied with revolutionizing themselves and things, creating something that did not exist before, precisely in such epochs of revolutionary crisis they anxiously conjure up the spirits of the past to their service, borrowing from them names, battle slogans, and costumes in order to present this new scene in world history in time-honored disguise and borrowed language.


 No.2827355

>>2827349

>no one wants excessive surveillance, much less workers

No one wants bourgeois surveillance, myself included. Proletarian panopticism is in the interests of all for the benefit of all. I want it with all of my heart.

>What you do by suggesting this garbage idea is alienating workers and anyone who might be interested in socialism, this is why no one likes us ffs.

Alienating? No. I think many people who truly think over the benefits will see my point. I talk about this to people in real life. At first they are skeptical, but soon they see why I have adopted such views.

>No one takes you seriously, this is why workers keep voting for rightwing parties, cause because of retards like you we are associated with totalitarianism, surveillance, and censorship.

You imply that the concepts of “totalitarianism”, “surveillance” and “censorship” are bad. Quite the opposite. You are infected by bourgeois ideology if you think these are bad. The construction of socialism isn’t a game. Exploiters and wreckers should get out of the road or get ran over.

>But hey maybe you'll enjoy being spied on by the gov as your uncle rapes you, to each their own

Was this supposed to be witty?


 No.2827358

>>2827355

keep your mouth shut and keep writing the Panoptic Manifesto in private you dumb fucking piece of shit, maybe after the revolution and years of actually getting people used to beautiful socialist motherland we can try to ruin it with massive surveillance.


 No.2827360

>>2827355

Please address my previous arguments as well but I want to add that

> Proletarian panopticism is in the interests of all for the benefit of all.

seems like a charity work, and these 'interests' and surveillance seems a 'break' away from the masses.

Take another analogy:

If your child does something wrong or will do something wrong in the future (every child does, out of learning and curiosity), will you increase surveillance and control over your child, or raise them to be think for themselves, and occasionally guide your child yourselves too.

This analogy is not stressing the parent-child relationship to be party-masses relationship, keep in mind, but you get the idea.


 No.2827361

>>2827354

Revisionists absolutize the importance of the objective factor, of the material conditions and of economic considerations and slip down the slope of vulgar materialism and economism. In line with Lenin’s teachings, as held to by Hoxha, true Marxists recognize, especially under socialism, the role of the subjective factor, the need to continuously revolutionize the superstructure and in particular the party and state. Politics is in command, the education and molding of a new man and new culture is paramount. Reactionary habits do not simply vanish under socialism, they must be uprooted and wiped out. Class struggle does not end under socialism


 No.2827365

>>2827358

>keep your mouth shut and keep writing the Panoptic Manifesto in private you dumb fucking piece of shit

While I am currently in the process of setting up a pro-Pol Pot and pro-barracks communist youtube channel, I am not currently writing a manifesto. There will surely be videos on Proletarian Panopticism and its benefits, though. Your hostility towards me leads me to think that you have something to hide, some reason to fear the Eye.

>maybe after the revolution and years of actually getting people used to beautiful socialist motherland we can try to ruin it with massive surveillance

Ruin it? No, PERFECT socialism. You LARP about beauty and “motherlands”, I objectively observe the tasks to be done and lay out concrete solutions to reach these goals. Hence my threads on the labor army, my threads on mass-surveillance, my arguments against alcohol in favor of prohibition, the revolutionary genocide thread, etc


 No.2827366

It would be good for production, poor for morale.


 No.2827367

>>2827361

Thanks for reinforcing it! I am new, so can you recommend me something to read more vulgar materialism and economism?

> they must be uprooted and wiped out. Class struggle does not end under socialism

I recognize that. That's the point of cultural revolution, Mao talked about it, but Chinese revolution failed (Deng, but debatable, and we have yet to see where it heads under Xi). Hoxha stressed this too? can you point me towards his writings where he does? I am interested in learning more about the Albanian socialist state and theorists.


 No.2827368

Oh uh so hey guys yeah I'm a self-identified pol-potist, I'm living in a first world country though and have unfortunately never seen a rural countryside in my life, but once Year Zero comes I'll be a rural commisar and I'll execute all urbanite counterrevolutionaries ha ha! Oh and yeah I've also been diagnosed as a highly disfunctional autist which means I have 0 conving skills and 0 charisma but hey I'll lead the revolution one day! I'm also in favor of a massive surveillance state so I can always know for a fact the perfect time to call over my uncle to give those surveillance workers some nice viewing if you know what I mean ;D he he. Hey guys don't leave Pol Pot is still relevant right?


 No.2827369

>>2827367

Check out chapter 14 of this work on Albania:

https://archive.org/details/PickaxeRifle

It discusses the Albanian Cultural Revolution as well


 No.2827370

>>2827368

You have derailed from the discussion tbh. Do you want to continue or not, or do you want to WEAPONIZE your 'AUTISM' before wasting 10 minutes of your /leftypol/ comrades, comrade?


 No.2827371

>>2827369

Amazing… and downloaded! Thank you again.


 No.2827372

>>2827368

CTRL + F “uncle” >>2827349

Hmm…someone is butt blasted


 No.2827373

>>2827372

You are here, will you please respond to our actual criticisms, please?


 No.2827376

File: 014c9c36b4c5224⋯.jpeg (318.29 KB, 1100x1412, 275:353, 13249066-AD4E-4144-B19C-0….jpeg)

File: 18c02d58f6b5dcd⋯.jpeg (110.07 KB, 900x750, 6:5, 502380BC-BF9B-4CAA-980A-1….jpeg)

>>2827371

No problem, comrade. Always investigate the truth for yourself, /leftypol/ is infected by liberalism and imperialist propaganda.

Enjoy this song:

https://youtu.be/Ko9wikf_RBc


 No.2827377

>>2827373

I’ve been doing that the whole thread, it can be hard to keep up so if I missed something post the post number so I can get to it


 No.2827381


 No.2827385

>>2827365

>revolutionary genocide

what the fuck is that


 No.2827387

>>2827381

Hmm not sure how I missed that many. I guess I was multitasking. I may break this into several posts or it will take me a while to respond since I’m typing this on a phone

>>2827348

>If I am not wrong, isn't vulgar marxism the belief that only material conditions affect ideas and not the other way round? If that is true, I apologise for this mistake

See >>2827361

>but don't you think all this brainwashing breaks down eventually when what the lies comrades are fed don't match with their reality?

There is no reason to tell people lies. There is no brainwashing. There will be education or re-education into people of socialist ideology, an ideology, of course, backed by science as all Marxists are well aware.

I am very much in support of cultural revolution as Pol Pot and, to a different degree Hoxha were. Pol Pot was more uncompromising than them all, though


 No.2827390

>>2827385

The full-scale industrial elimination of the exploiters. The scale would depend on whether full exploiters would be targeted or everyone benefiting off of it (families, the wealthy in general, etc.). For example if we were to eliminate the top 10% of the American wealthy, 32 million people would be liquidated. With the 1%, it would be some 3.2 million. Whether this is practical or even beneficial or not is highly debatable and would depend on the revolutionary conditions. The physical removal of exploiters is always an option. A clean, socialist slate would be all that remains. A true “year zero”


 No.2827391

>>2827390

oh, well call it classicide for christ sake, genocide it's exclusively for a race.


 No.2827392

File: 420fa72c054cf3c⋯.png (510.1 KB, 1752x3240, 73:135, tfw.png)

>>2827391

not even revolutionary sacrifice

no

its

> revolutionary genocide

> tfw


 No.2827394

The other posts you listed I had already replied to, scroll up and look, you must have missed them.

>>2827360

>seems like a charity work, and these 'interests' and surveillance seems a 'break' away from the masses.

Charity work? Perhaps. Holding with the vanguard as the general staff of an army analogy used by Stalin, we know that the vanguard is more theoretically advanced and in-tune with the objectives of the construction of communism than the average Joe on the street. Just because the masses want or feel something doesn’t make their wishes or desires correct or conductive to societal well-being. Hence the vanguard. It may break from the masses occasionally, but the vanguard is not a closed system, it constantly imbibes new blood from the proletariat and functions through democratic centralism. The panoptic proletarian state may indeed be paternal, but the end, as always, justifies the means

>If your child does something wrong or will do something wrong in the future (every child does, out of learning and curiosity), will you increase surveillance and control over your child, or raise them to be think for themselves, and occasionally guide your child yourselves too.

That’s the point of the panoptic experience. The observed will, due to their potential observation spontaneously adapt themselves to the socialist norm. This is the guide you speak of, it is not direct control. Through this apparatus direct intervention is rarely needed


 No.2827398

>>2827391

Etymologically you’re correct but the term has undergone semantic change to some degree. Just see how Wiktionary defines it alongside with the more original definition you mentioned:

>The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of their ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, social status, or other particularities.

Revolutionary genocide would target people for political beliefs, social status and perhaps religion, falling under the above definition. “Classicide” is more specific but it doesn’t quite have the same ring that revolutionary genocide has for me.


 No.2827399

>>2827398

whatever man, some niggas call the landlord classicide in China a genocide so might as well call it what you want


 No.2827405

>>2827394

> missed them

I don't think I did, just that I felt that the answers were inadequate.

> Holding with the vanguard as the general staff of an army analogy used by Stalin, we know that the vanguard is more theoretically advanced and in-tune with the objectives of the construction of communism than the average Joe on the street

Obviously the vanguard comprises of the most class-conscious and learned comrades.

> Just because the masses want or feel something doesn’t make their wishes or desires correct or conductive to societal well-being.

Of course. That'd be mob rule. When I used the phrase 'interests of the masses' I want you to distinguish it from 'what the masses think is right for them'. I instead meant what is actually in the interests of the masses. And if not properly educated the masses are, the least they'd be able to recognize non-proletarian policies is when they don't work for them (here I want to stress that policies like NEP might seem to be counter revolutionary to the masses, but it isn't in the short-term, so it is also the matter of education again in how to get the masses to go beyond the surface of the matter, to its root) The problem is how to get the masses to recognize their interests. So really our debate has gotten down to 'education' and constant struggle against bourgeois ideas. Our methods differ of course, you want what I feel a very restrictive way of handling these things, feels spoon-feeding tbh. This is very conflicting for me, the balance between teaching masses and letting them take anti-bourgeois actions themselves, and leading them. Tailism vs commandism anyone?


 No.2827411

>>2827394

> end justify means

I really have my doubts about it rn, Trotsky said

> The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end.

If we take this for granted for a moment, our end is justified (via scientific socialism, not just moral rage against capitalism), but Trotsky and your position imply ANY means.

What would Marxists say about invading other countries for 'socialism' what brainwashed workers didn't ask for, like america invades for 'freedom', except that invading for socialism is freedom unlike american 'freedom' (oil-grabbing genocide basically)? Answer to this may solve my 'end justify means' dilemma but at this point this thread seems dead so I am probably just talking to myself


 No.2827413

>>2827405

I think educating the masses and having them participate in the building of socialism is very important. I am a preponent of the mass-line and proletarian mobilization in pursuit of our goals. All policies taken should be comprehended by the masses, standing TOO isolated theoretically is dangerous to success, though of course, as we both agree the vanguard will be more theoretically advanced. The mass-line principle can still hold with discipline and ubiquitous surveillance. Nothing can be left to chance, all chance must be abolished and controlled. This is indeed totalitarian, in that it will embrace all irrespectively. Conformity to the revolutionary norm will be ensured. As an example of a disciplined army of workers, read Bellamy’s “Looking Backward” and see what wonderful possibilities exist.


 No.2827416

>>2827411

>What would Marxists say about invading other countries for 'socialism' what brainwashed workers didn't ask for, like america invades for 'freedom', except that invading for socialism is freedom unlike american 'freedom' (oil-grabbing genocide basically)?

I think the old adage that revolution cannot be exported holds firm here. I think the masses need a certain level of socialist consciousness before moves can start to be made.


 No.2827422

>>2827413

> read Looking Backward

Okay, Wikipedia says it is 'utopian science fiction, so reading this is not a top priority, but I will. Thanks.

> standing TOO isolated theoretically is dangerous to success

I don't know if this nature of mine, and of many people I know offline and online, a result of living under a capitalist system. But I have experienced that if something is forced down upon me and I am not allowed to learn by experiencing and experimenting, I tend to lose interest even if what is being forced down is prerequisite to success in this capitalist society. I do not want conflate this individual matter with a revolution where too many chances cannot be taken, but still want to keep this observation in mind. Your method of absolute surveillance-control-guide seems antithetical to what I think is the way to revolution and class struggle under DoTP. I don't know which is a correct Marxist position on this, but your approach seems very disconnected from the masses.

Instead of a centralised surveillance system though, if the party members regularly mingle with the masses (massline) like friends really, correct them at their mistakes, and Marxist education centers, etc. then this seems the more natural way to struggle.

I'll stop here. Thanks for the discussion.


 No.2827428

>>2827422

> too many chances cannot be taken

here I mean arbitrary and casual chances, not chances that are Marxist or the party have arrived at through democratic centralism and 'concrete study of concrete conditions'.


 No.2827433

We need a completely transparent economic sphere and well-protected private sphere.

Although maybe we should allow workers to pick their own level of surveillance at work. Either you work in private with strict quotas or you work under strict oversight without these quotas. We can also give workers the choice between working as freelancers under public scrutiny or as co-operands under scrutiny by their enterprise only. In the first case we track the productivity of the worker by himself, in the second we track the productivity of the entire enterprise.

The freedom to determine things like this would not only give workers more control over their work process, but also make the socialist economy much more dynamic.

One thing I've been thinking about is how we can ensure a transparent economy while also making people's consumption patterns private. If you want to insert a big fat dragon dildo into your ass this should remain possible under socialism, but obviously you wouldn't want everyone to know about it. Nevertheless we do want to keep check on people's labor tokens. Maybe there are some cryptographic tricks that could resolve this issue, or maybe we can have discrete "banking" organizations that reliably keep track of people's labor tokens without it having to be public. I don't know.


 No.2827437

>>2827083

Oh, and read your OP

> the construction of a truly impregnable proletarian state is possible, a state where dissent can be located before the would-be dissenter themselves knows of their possible dissent.

Ah, this could be problematic. If the dissenter if a worker, despite of socialism working and no bureaucracy, then their ideas have to be handled and corrected in a friendly manner.

Hey, if by 'surveillance' you mean if the workers opt in that when they engage in say online discussions their posts be read by learned comrades and discussed and criticised then it is actually good. But we have gotten to point of being deeply rooted with the masses themselves. So this debate I think is meaningless.


 No.2827439

>>2827433

> One thing I've been thinking about is how we can ensure a transparent economy while also making people's consumption patterns private. If you want to insert a big fat dragon dildo into your ass this should remain possible under socialism, but obviously you wouldn't want everyone to know about it. Nevertheless we do want to keep check on people's labor tokens. Maybe there are some cryptographic tricks that could resolve this issue, or maybe we can have discrete "banking" organizations that reliably keep track of people's labor tokens without it having to be public. I don't know.

Read Paul Cockshott? Check out his videos on YT for a starter.


 No.2827443

>>2827437

Also you have made me think if the Amazon and Google-style content and product recommendation by tracking your online and offline activities, while frowned upon in capitalistic society because of being profit-driven and intrusive, could actually be beneficial to people in a socialist setting because

> profit-motive removed

> so actual voluntary opt-out possible

> data collected will only be available to computers and NOT humans, and information extracted private to the owner of the data, so 'intrusive' element somewhat removed.

And instead of being centralised, this AI could actually be available for download (open-source too ofco) and be used locally by the user.


 No.2827453

File: ea9831fc17a1309⋯.jpg (34.18 KB, 367x401, 367:401, apu-angry.jpg)

>>2827439

if there's one thing I'd change about /leftypol/ it's that anons would give even brief summaries of their recommended thinkers position on a given matter instead of just sayin "read X" and fucking off.

I'm also interested in this question but I'm just slugging my way through basic ML stuff and don't have the time or brain capacity to just go read everything Cockshott has written. And yes, you Cockshott faggots are especially prone to doing this. If you want people to know what he's all about and why we should all become Cockshottists then explain his fucking ideas reeeee!

TL;DR help a dumb brother out and don't just hit us with the entire body of work of some commie author


 No.2827461

>>2827453

basically cock nigga wants to put us in the matrix


 No.2827462

>>2827453

Comrade, that is why I quoted you.

>One thing I've been thinking about is how we can ensure a transparent economy while also making people's consumption patterns private. If you want to insert a big fat dragon dildo into your ass this should remain possible under socialism, but obviously you wouldn't want everyone to know about it. Nevertheless we do want to keep check on people's labor tokens. Maybe there are some cryptographic tricks that could resolve this issue, or maybe we can have discrete "banking" organizations that reliably keep track of people's labor tokens without it having to be public. I don't know.

Paul Cockshott discusses this in his book 'Towards a New Socialism'. At least check out its Table of contents:

http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/toc.html

Skim through his short introduction to it:

http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/intro.html

> I'm also interested in this question but I'm just slugging my way through basic ML stuff and don't have the time or brain capacity to just go read everything Cockshott has written. And yes, you Cockshott faggots are especially prone to doing this. If you want people to know what he's all about and why we should all become Cockshottists then explain his fucking ideas reeeee!

Same here. Plus I have a shit brain along with concentration problem (even fail captchas so there's that. I have only read relevant segments of his work tbh and summaries by various comrades online.

His short videos you can see (he takes lots of long pauses and is a little slow so you can skip using 'L' key or play the video at x1.25) which are relevant to your question:

1. Why labor theory of value is right (15:12)

> Explains the empirical evidence for the labour theory of value, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emnYMfjYh1Q

2. Going beyong money (26:28)

> Explains Marx's idea for the use of labour certificates in a communist system, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI01-5zhwdA

3. Getting down to details of communism (25:52)

> Looks at how a labor credit economy would actually work, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTl4b0w6mpk


 No.2827468

>>2827462

I'm actually not the anon you quoted, but I sperged out cause I thought it was a good question. Thanks comrade, I'll check this stuff out.


 No.2827471

>>2827468

Damn, didn't notice. But no problem comrade, am glad to be of help! If you want to begin with his work, you might want to go through Marx's https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/index.htm (Critique of the Gotha Programme) first. There afaik he discusses the concepts of labor vouchers somewhere, run a search through it

I currently don't have a source but iirc labor vouchers have been used before and to cancel them out of circulation there were if you guessed paper punching machines before modern tech.


 No.2827475

>>2827471

There Wikipedia article discusses them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_voucher


 No.2827489

>>2827475

For a quick summary of how labor vouchers would work IRL think of how credit card and debit cards work – we will utilize this tech ofco.

There have been Cockshott threads before but here is a vulgar rundown for you:

1. Say I work for 8 hours (socially-necessary labour time (SNLT), remember, do not bring mud pie argument)

2. I get 8 (hours worth) labour vouchers.

3. Labour vouchers can only be used once.

4. So they do not circulate like money does.

5. Also to prevent further hoarding, they expire after a certain time. Plus, there is no transfer of vouchers. They are bound to you only, cannot give it to your friend.

6. Also this is done all electronically now that we can utilize the technology of credit cards and debit card and internet banking.

7. Say a chair takes 2 SNLT to in total manufacture, transport, deliver, etc. So I can use 2 vouchers to buy a chair from a local warehouse.

8. If my job is harder, the society decides the multiplier of how many vouchers I get. For example for a wood worker this multiplier could be x1 and for a doctor x2, so for working 8 hours, the former gets 8 LV and the latter gets 16.

9. Also remember that students while their study get LV too because their time spent studying is SNLT. So doctors, engineers, philosophers all are paid (not out of obligation/favour of the state, but what they actually DESERVE, they are producing value while they study).

10. For products which practically require no SNLT for production, they become free.

11. Plus, a planned economy, so full democratization and production is for consumption not profit so there is no wastage or middle-man.

12. There would be, by the nature of socialist society itself, full employment as more number of people into jobs, the less amount of SNLT to create products so working hours reduce for everyone as well as the costs. The same happens as we do more automation.

13. Notice how in capitalism there has to exist unemployment but not here.

So this is really the system that works for everyone.

If a learned comrade can correct me please do.


 No.2827490

>>2827489

Plus now I get the full fruits of my labor. This explanation seems problematic but you get the idea.


 No.2827492

>>2827083

first drink drano


 No.2827493

>>2827490

>full fruits of your labor

You don't though, taxes get taken out so infrastructure can be maintained and people who can't work get taken care of


 No.2827496

>>2827493

Thanks for the correction!

> taxes, people who can't work get taken care of

I have reading to do tbh ;p Is there any other correction in my summary? Can I at least say, ofco, that I get more fruits of my labour than I did under capitalism, no?


 No.2827497

>>2827496

> Can I at least say, ofco, that I get more fruits of my labour than I did under capitalism, no?

considering I now don't consider taxes to be theft because now I pay taxes out of the consideration and compassion for my comrades who may be less able due to whatever reason, infrastructure, etc.


 No.2827504

>>2827355

>but soon they see why I have adopted such views.

Are you sure it's because you've persuaded them and not just so you'd stop looking at them like pic related?

Sorry I can't help myself, that film just comes to my mind when I listen to barracks communists, still love your posting. You seem like you're looking for some kind of absoute dialectical zero point. I can't help but respect that and it's a fucking trip to watch.

>>2827361

But here is exactly the problem. The surveillance system you propose can't help but create an atmosphere of conformism and fear, where no one dare oppose the political dogma of who ever controlls the panopticon.

I remember the moment when I flipped over to the Communism. It was a history class where they talked about my countrys civil war, and despite the bourgeoise presentation something clicked in my head and I just knew the communists where in the right. I remember the rush of adrenaline when I realized I was finally thinking with my own brain and I saw through the bosses ideology that saturated every aspect of daily life. The thing is, unless you believe a perfect purity of thought can be achieved, and achieved before the creation of the panopticon, you'll kill any chance of the politics developing, since every new idea will be killed in its cradle by the person who has it in the fear of seeming unorthodox or counterrevolutionary.


 No.2827505

File: f487673babded68⋯.jpg (107.98 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, maxresdefault.jpg)

>>2827504 (me)

*pic related here


 No.2827506

>>2827504

Plus the workers will have a very negative reaction to it, they would already be recovering from the effects of a similar bourgeois system. No way they'll accept it.


 No.2827508

>>2827492

>more emotional outburst

Top kek


 No.2827510

>>2827496

The point is that you and your comrades are in complete control of how the fruits of your labor are invested. It isn't up to a separate owning class anymore. You may decide that you want more of the fruits of your labor as labor tokens, but this will come at a cost in investment into new productive means and directly social goods. It could be more valuable to invest in new machinery. It could be more valuable to invest in a communal swimming pool, or a theater with interesting performances, or a communal kitchen with free meals, or the development of new free video games.

This needs to be decided before people are given labor tokens, because if we make it function on donations you run into the free-rider problem, and if we make people pay for these things we are just commodifying them, with all the negative effects that ensue.


 No.2827511

>Discipline in schools would become the norm, labor productivity would sky-rocket, capitalists could be located and weeded out as soon as they are detected.

Or, perhaps, over-surveillance breeds contempt for the power surveiling, especially if the system capturing and judging the information gathered is less than perfect in judging the information it has (whether doing x implies a lack of discipline, or that one is insufficiently contributing labor, and that one is truly in favor of capitalism). Having more information is not equivalent to having more useful information.

>The best surveillance is where one polices themselves, and what better way than through the pervasive methods described above?

It's entirely specious to say that these methods are people "policing themselves" when this surveillance is fundamentally a policing method used by the state.

I find the only concrete result of expatiating upon the benefits of the surveillance state (under socialism) is to prop up the actual surveillance state (under capitalism).


 No.2827513

>>2827510

This was insightful. I really like how this'd bring us together as a society again.

> This needs to be decided before people are given labor tokens, because if we make it function on donations you run into the free-rider problem, and if we make people pay for these things we are just commodifying them, with all the negative effects that ensue.

> The point is that you and your comrades are in complete control of how the fruits of your labor are invested

I see that I totally missed the social aspects of this system and gave too much focus on the individual. Thanks for showing me the big picture, more to learn and think about!


 No.2827518

>>2827511

You sure are demonizing the state a lot, what are you, some sort of infantile anarchist? The state is a force for good. Surveillance methods enacted in this way will lay the foundations for a harmonious, classless society. Any lasting resistance to this system will be gone within a generation as people are born into a system use to ubiquitous surveillance. Your assertions about over-surveillance breeding contempt completely ignores the class-character of the surveillance.


 No.2827521

>>2827518

They are not demonizing the state. Your system and > a state where dissent can be located before the would-be dissenter themselves knows of their possible dissent

does that

Read Mao's:

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/works/red-book/ch04.htm

Very appropriate response against the system you propose


 No.2827524

>>2827521

My system is wholly in line with these positions.


 No.2827525

>>2827524

> capitalists could be located and weeded out as soon as they are detected

please clarify whether instead of 'capitalists' it should be 'capitalist thoughts'


 No.2827529

>>2827525

if this system is wholly in line with those positions, it just seems an electronic version of criticism and self-criticism

What is different?

It's unclear from your OP if this system is under the control of a few individuals and whether they are susceptible to corruption. What if this system was in place at the time of Krushchev/Gobarchev. The party line was of course towards permanent capitalist reforms. What if the masses dissented then? How would they be handled then?




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