What do you guys think about Antifa? Personally I think that their main goal to bring down fascism is a good idea, but they seem to also do wrong things, and since /leftypol/ is leftist, and Antifa is also leftist, I was just wondering what other leftists had thought about it.
I enjoy watching them scare boomers and the non-boomer /pol/tards.
Haha, yeah. That was kinda funny.
>What do you guys think about Antifa?
It's not a unified group, the important thing is not to overgeneralize. Examine everyone as a unique individual. Some are good, some are bad. The good ones fight against police brutality and fascists, the bad ones are really just radical liberal identarians who want to virtue signal and only turned to """anarchism""" (their version of it which isn't really anarchism at all) because Hilldawg lost the race.
There's also the antifa based in Japan, Roja.va, and Greece, which seem to be better organizaed and not quite obsessed with burger IDpol bullshit, of which I admire more.
topic is a little old. had many threads asking this at the height of theyre popularity.
Absolute shit makes me puke, idpol ridden college liberals
Honestly what does it matter? As long as they are distracting fashies and ruining their optics I don't see anything wrong with them. The first world must not be allowed to go full fascist as they diminish.
Necessary evil, stormfags don't care about logic and reason, but they know fear.
Antifa keep stormweenies in check
Anyone who attacks fascists is at least some level of good.
Everyone should at least look into there local antifa group too check out what there doing there probably not as bad as you think and like others have said anyone who resist facism is doing at least one thing right.
I didn't know Japan had a strong Antifa movement where can I learn about them?
There isn´t THE antifa, there are regional/country differences. That said even the larpers in their ranks are a net benefit since they openly oppose facists.
even within cities there are probably multiple antifa groups. This will generally be studenty types and football types in Europe. Really depends on who you are talking about
They don't go far enough sometimes, but I'm proud of antifascist groups in North America as of recently
Too many here knows what Antifa is or means and just runs with how it is defined in boomer media. >>2852140 gets it.
fugging borgissi and so on and so on
quake voice excellent
Larpers who gather most of their "radical thought" from Harry Potter and Buzzfeed, basically glorified neoliberals pretending to be anarchists.
Didn't we already have a thread for this?
Who's that? She seems niiiiccee
And yeah, I'm anti-fascist.
Had a good discussion on its problems a while back here https://8ch.net/leftypol/res/2730417.html#q2740002
WE MUST CRITICALLY SUPPORT THE JAPANESE EMPEROR AGAINST SHINZO ABE IMPERIALISM
Heisei Restoration is actually existing socialism.
The Japanese Emperor actually is about as cool as an emperor can be. He non-stop pisses off the Japanese right-wing despite their obsession with worshiping him. Even the JCP decided they're okay with the emperor though that may have a bit more to do with them going succdem. /leftyweebpol/ has an interesting thread about him. >>>/leftyweebpol/311
Japanese antifa like C.R.A.C. are hilariously based and have responded to fascist noise vans by creating antifa noise vans that chase the fascists around while yelling at them:
The fascists get extremely buttmad about that too, and the antifa dudes are having a ton of fun, and looking like you're having fun is half the battle.
In my country they chase out genuine communists (marxist leninist) out of their protests saying that they have nothing to do with their „totalitarism”. Absolute garbage
In my country they are communists and anarchists and get along fine. I remember from when I was organized, we had some comrades visit from a neighboring country and they were in awe that communists and anarchists were in the same organization. Meanwhile I hadn’t even considered it before. Some friendly ribbing once a while between people, but no issues.
My impression is working out political beef in the context of antifascist work is counterproductive. The point is to disrupt fascist organizing and beef over anarchism or Marxism is best left to be worked out in other arenas.
Anyways, some people who do it seem very good at it. It was amazing to watch the disruption of Identity Evropa in the U.S. recently which seemed like it took months of work to pull off, totally in secret – and most importantly, the people who did will never take credit for it. The fash are typically arrogant to the extreme and don't see it coming.
This guy Casey, this nerdy wannabe Fuhrer who led the organization, spent a lot of time bragging about how doxxings went down after he took over and then suddenly practically the entire organization gets doxxed all of a sudden. They tried to bail from their Discord to Slack, but little did they know that had been infiltrated too. Makes you want to microwave up some popcorn and watch.
I'm kind of a fan of "everyday antifascism." Like organizing squads to go out and take down fascist stickers or flyers when they get posted, and form up little monitoring groups responsible for keeping tabs on fascist groups' social media – the groups tend to post pics of their work after they do it, so you can geolocate the spots using landmarks in the background of the photos and then go out and take them down.
A lot of fascist groups basically only have one strategy which is attempting to trick liberals into overreacting and reporting Nazi shit to local media, which then does a story on it. Free publicity, essentially, so having groups that can tear that shit down before some idiot liberal sees it seems to be pretty effective at curtailing them. They of course change their tactics over time and you have to adjust as well.
Antifa here in Germany are horrible. They actually oppose communism and are anarkiddies + left liberals. Ugh
I recall there was this one clip where they trashed some fashies apartment and sprayed the walls black. That was based, at least.
way to buy into boomer propoganda you dumb cunt. The antifa i know are all football casuals.
thats from RF in sweden is it not?
Anti fascism might be one of the the most important if not the most important responsibility of the left right now. As a matter of fact much too important to be left to a bunch of scruffy punk kids. I'm sure most of them are decent people but the truth is, what modern antifascists need to project is discipline, maturity and trustworthyness, all of which mainstream Antifa is severely lacking in.
When the old lady who's afraid for her pension, the underpaid worker in a dead end job, the immigrant family frightened by neofascist sentiment, the homosexual couple who want to be left in peace hear the term "Antifa" the need to think of upright man and women who fight for their rights and protect them from aggression.
Fascists regularly cite low turnouts or cancellation of events out of fear of Antifa or other counter fash movements. Bootlickers hate having the boot shoved down theyre throat, surprisingly.
Reminder if you are anti fascist, you are Antifa.
OP here, thanks for the responses.
I literally thought they were just annoying idpol kids until the New Zealand massacre. I thought antifa was just beating up some pathetic nazi larpers before and I thought the whole thing was dumb idpol vs idpol crap. Now I've seen the average /pol/ response to the New Zealand massacre, I realize those guys are violent sociopaths and not just edgy teenagers.Who knows where we'd be if those psychopaths were roaming the streets unopposed.
as someone who feels threatened by both street skinheads and fascists with state power, I think antifa has been doing good work overall. it needs to get more organized though, at least in the US (and come up with better chants ffs). sure charlottesville was a pr disaster for the alt-right but I imagine they'll creep back out after the 2020 crash. the burger left in general needs to get its shit together quick which I suppose has been happening to a certain extent but I'm worried it's not gonna be enough
not who you replied to, but that is my former organization
best years of my life i tell you. best years.
I agree with this. That is how I became a leftist to begin with, these people saved me and my mom from a beating by neo-Nazi filth when I was very young (8-9k).
>(and come up with better chants ffs)
NO NO NO
IN THE NAME OF HUMANITY
WE REFUSE A FASCIST AMERICA
>I realize those guys are violent sociopaths
I realized this around HWNDU 2016, immediately after the election. Had all the fuckups from /pol/ speaking infront of the camera and I know from then on that fascism is just concentrated psychopathy. I don't mean the meming kids who were there, I mean the actual nutjobs and other cranks who turned up.
I am part of the movement. I am also a radical.
What are you talking about, idiot. You can't even be a Liberal and an Anarchist at the same time! Go back to /pol/, Nazi LARPer!
based and redpilled. You part of any orgs these days?
I support it on all levels.
Leftypol is traditional liberal with strong bent to compassionate communalism (expressed as socialism).
Antifa is an anarchist paramilitary organisation funded by the Jew, Soros, for purposes of political and currency control.
We have nothing in common except that we don't like the current system.
Beware of radlibs infiltrating radical spaces (wolves in sheeps clothing). Once you let in the drama, idpol, and general Tumblr mindset, it's hard to push it back out. For all intents and purposes, SJWs are feds because they are very proficient at stifling direct action, dividing groups, and neutralizing high-level organizers.
There are different reasons to support antifa:
>A lot of the /pol/ kids should be punched in the face
>Opportunities to practice hand-to-hand combat and crowd control in urban environments in urban environments is rare
>Plenty of libs and progressives can warm up to leftist radicalism when they see a good antifa narrative (introduces cultural shift)
>Antifa is a good entrypoint to further underground activism (more tools in more hands)
Reasons not to support antifa:
- Punching /pol/ in the face doesn't really change anything
- It's full of liberals, drama, cops
The more riots and street brawls of any kind, the better. I would rather see useless protests that are violent and destructive than useless protests that are boring. Wouldn't you?
Dumb kids that mean well. The organizers are almost certainly just some shadowy pragmati$t scum connected to the establishment.
I went to one of their counter-demos way before all this trump is hitler stuff and it's just dumb crustpunks throwing shit at even dumber right wing people. I know that the ones who throw shit and cause trouble aren't actually bad people, they just genuinely believe that they're fighting the Fourth Reich call of duty IRL because their political knowledge comes from Dead Kennedy's lyrics. Nice but dumb kids being used.
Even if they are just being used, isn't there an inherent goodness in the fact that people are rioting and wasting police resources and waking up normies to the possibility that they, too, could engage in civil disobedience? You just need to put on your post-leftist goggles.
If an islamist sunni blows up a shiite mosque or a neo-nazi attacks a synagogue and they think they're doing god's will or saving their race, they think they're good people just in the same way a person donating to charity is thinking they're doing the right thing. It might objectively be a total waste and wrong but in their mind they're not nihilists ripping off 'suckers' and stuffing themselves with meat, cheese and alcohol and laughing about it.
The solution is to take those moral crusaders which is a personality type and channel their willingness to sacrifice into non-violent action against bankers and intelligence agencies, where the sacrifice is the risk of loss of life/livelihood, torture, financial and legal attacks, public humiliation, incarceration and so on.
Violence is very ineffective and almost always counterproductive but taking action in the face of the threat of violence to reveal the truth like Snowden did is extremely productive. People can be replaced and repopulate even if you drop a bunch nukes on them. They can repair the damage. You can't undo the damage from revealing secrets and changing peoples minds.
>antifa is the same as CIA-backed Salafi terrorism
scaring nazis out of the public sphere makes things safer for oppressed people
This isn't shocking. I mean, Churchhill regretted taking the Kaiser out and Hitler was Anti-Monarchist.
what the fuck is this
> Antifa is an anarchist paramilitary organisation funded by the Jew, Soros, for purposes of political and currency control.
source on this
I don't see antifa in that list
>inb4 BLM = antifa
Fuck off, /pol/. Antifa is not even an organization it is a movement, you idiot. And Trump is literally the definition of the establishment. He is a fat, Zionist, arrogant billionaire. Kill yourself.
>Antifa is an anarchist paramilitary organisation funded by the Jew, Soros, for purposes of political and currency control.
But I have never received a paycheck from Georgie, strange.
>The organizers are almost certainly just some shadowy pragmati$t scum connected to the establishment.
Nah you are thinking of proud boys and patriot prayer, both of which are heavily financed by and connected to establishment figures.
You're hilarious, go the fuck back to >>>/pol/ you cuntrag.
>Not getting Soros direct deposits
pffft look at this pleb.
> bring down fascism
Implying you can kill an idea
Full support. They get their hands dirty unlike these bookworms.
According to my very scientific and accurate statistical analysis, approximately 78,318% (± 1,3) of right-wing claims of their opposition are projection. About half of the remainder (~10,841%) are semi-purposeful misunderstandings, and the rest is a mix of truths, half-truths, and alike.
(Note: Outright lies have not been accounted for separately, as they exist in variable degrees of severity mixed-in across most of the earlier categories, and their significant volume require a separate study for themselves to yield any meaningful answers.)
Just wondering when they are actually going to go after this ugly bitch.
they are based for punching Richard Spencer, and it was funny to see this outrage at "muh violent leftists" when the alt-right want genocide.
Tbh she is milquetoast: apart from defending her grandpapa she is nothing more than a regular national conservative. Fratelli d'Italia, Lega Nord, and Casapound are the real threat.
I can't wait until someone mutilates her dead body and hangs her upside-down in public for everyone to laugh at, exactly like they did with her grandfather.
im a bit of a noob, who is she?
Benito Mussolini's granddaughter
absolutely shit false flag. You are not leftypol
Antifa isn't on there dickweed.
>look at this pic of giant cock i have saved for no reason
Straight people don’t constantly steer conversations to cock Nazi-kun.
a mixed bag, really. some are hardcore ancoms and far left activists, others are weekend radlibs. But it is always fun seeing stormfags and boomers get in a twist about them.
Their actions are misplaced. Although the group is extremely informal, they have a tendency to attack regular citizens when they're focus should be on protests against the elite, not necessarily rich people, but people with swaths of power. Your average white supremacists doesn't deserve to get punched and hit with rocks, but a politician pushing for legislation against the welfare of people in general should be massively protested.
Antifa is even more decentralized than Democrat Cops of America. It's less an organization and more a banner under which people with nothing to lose band together to force fascists out of their communities. I'm glad they're around; someone has to make Nazis afraid again.
>Your average white supremacists doesn't deserve to get punched and hit with rocks
Yes they do
>Your average white supremacists doesn't deserve to get punched and hit with rocks
oh but they do. they must be punched, they must be kicked, beaten, pelted with rocks, their homes invaded and their families threatened. They must be made to fear the left, like the sword of damocles hanging above their head by a thread, ready to impale them at any second.
No. If anybody needs to be punched, its the police and politicians, but even that I'm hesitant to be in favor of. Anti-Fascists shouldn't disrupt the free market of ideas regardless of how egregious, otherwise Anti-Fascist is just misnomer. Unless you mean literally Anti-Fascist as in I kill and hurt people with Fascist ideas. If so…okay I guess. My fascism is better than your fascism so stop spreading your ideas.
Fascists and their ilk are genuinely people lost in delusional fantasy that project their story-like views onto the world and then act as the "hero". See orcs vs. humans and so on. They whine about being punched because in their fantasy world, the "hero" throws all the punches and gets none himself, they aren't upset about the usage of violence, they're unhappy that their delusional fantasy is being interrupted.
Punch a nazi in the face today to prevent Dresden being burned tomorrow.
>Anti-Fascists shouldn't disrupt the free market of ideas regardless of how egregious
>free market of ideas
Doesn't exist. Not even basing this on a purely left oriented point of view, literally for any non-established ideology this does not exist. There is no equal ideological footing in any society and there never has been.
>otherwise Anti-Fascist is just misnomer.
Fascism isn't the use of authority and violence. The use of violence and authority is just how every ideology that isn't inconsequential actually applies itself in the real world. Any ideology that doesn't do this is either dead or doomed to be dead.
Antifa is used by the CIA to discredit leftist movements
Name one leftist movement that isn't used by the CIA to discredit leftist movements. That's what the CIA does; it discredits leftist movements.
>free market of ideas
>killing and hurting people with fascist ideas is fascism
>Fascism isn't the use of authority and violence. The use of violence and authority is just how every ideology that isn't inconsequential actually applies itself in the real world.
Correct. As explored in Politics as a Vocation (read Weber you fucks), what legitimizes a state is its monopoly on the use of violence.
Free market doesn't imply lack of a reigning ideological view points, so don't mischaracterize the term. Free market of ideas entails equal chance of dispersal but unequal chance of application. Also, I was complaining that the term Anti-facist would be a misnomer if the use of Authoritarian methods to silence the opposition was put into place, which would be ironic considering Fascism is inherently authoritarian. But I suppose you wouldn't agree with that considering the fact that you view the methods of establishing an ideology to be separate from the ideology itself, hence Fascism ≠ use of authority and violence. And I agree that all ideologies that hold some influential grip on a group of people will have already utilized or will threaten others with the use of violence and authority to maintain their place within the common thought. But is is not fair to distinguish the difference between the ideological views represented by the state and the internal ideological marketplace? I don't mean to muddy the waters but I think they should be distinguished. The ideological views expressed by the state are already established and represented by the state, while internal ideological strife is much more volatile. Although both are subject to change.
Why can't you read right. I don't support that
>Free market of ideas entails equal chance of dispersal
But it's not. Mass media propaganda will always drown out the blogs. The ruling class has the media image and they've been constructing so for hundreds of years. And this isn't even addressing how governments will censor anyone they see as a threat with their free speeech anyway.
>unequal chance of application
In that case, free market of ideas is completely useless; why should I wait around for the unlikely chance for a bunch of brainwashed masses to wake up when I could be doing something right now?
Are there any solid examples of governments funding major media outlets or such? It makes sense that MSM defends the government but I can't think of any evidence.
Antifa is a waste of time and misdirected energy
>Laughs in 20-man turnout for rightwingers
Broke: ANTIFA, middle class liberal students organising without direction
Woke: Unite against racism, proletarian socialist trade unions organising under a common banner and organisation.
The chance of dispersal is still the same, its the quantity of dispersal you're speaking of. There is still equal CHANCE of dispersal. And by acting out and trying to wake-up the masses, you are still acting within the bounds of the free market of ideas. You're already playing the game, be it by violence or otherwise. Unequal application doesn't mean the tide of opinion can't change in your favor.
Bolshevik actions have been utilized by the CIA more than anyone.
>The chance of dispersal is still the same, its the quantity of dispersal you're speaking of
The chance doesn't fucking matter if no one is going to act on it anyway
>And by acting out and trying to wake-up the masses, you are still acting within the bounds of the free market of ideas. You're already playing the game, be it by violence or otherwise
No your shitty market of ideas is meaningless talk, violence is the only thing that motivates society, why do you think the government has a monopoly on it? Read Zizek.
>Unequal application doesn't mean the tide of opinion can't change in your favor
When its me against the world I don't think I'll wait around for everyone's consent, so no, fuck that.
At this point, this discussion is like speaking to a wall for both sides. Violence is one of the means you can use to spread your ideology, but you are still operating in the free market of ideas. Is this just a semantic difference of how we see the term free market of ideas or do you just believe the term doesn't have validity due to the inherent control of the state. I guess you could argue that ideology could only be openly spread in an anarcho-"state", which I agree with to some extent, but we can't have a conversation about that unless it was theoretical, since no such "state" exists. I just don't know anon, anarchism is a tempting ideology for me, convert me.
>unite against racism
Are you fucking kidding me
>not a bunch of middle class students
SWP fronts are the worst thing about the left in the UK
>A front comprised of literal trade unionists are actually in-fact middle class students
A HURR DURR
Deniable goons for the Establishment
only a select few from the unions in the UK aren't total cucks.
They have the support of David Cameron and they actively grass on other anti fascists.
Also if you think the people that show up to stand up to racism marches are actually trade union rank and file you are completely deluded.
>They have the support of David Cameron and they actively grass on other anti fascists.
>Also if you think the people that show up to stand up to racism marches are actually trade union rank and file you are completely deluded.
They did in Luton mate, |
as in, David Cameron has said he supports them, and at their marches they actively on inform on the police about "troublemakers" also known for telling people off for swearing and shouting abuse at fascists.
For anyone that isn't an SWP paper selling sex pest none of this is controversial.
>They did in Luton mate
i'll believe it when i see it or anybody i know says this.
How come the other unions, the radical ones such as RMT don't march with them?
yep. anti deutsche are retards
Bet ten bucks its Germany
Antifa stuff works really well at what it's designed to do but nothing more than that.
>Violence is one of the means you can use to spread your ideology, but you are still operating in the free market of ideas
The police are used to enforce the rule of the ruling class, when opposers step up they get cut down. See the assassination of Frank Hampton or literally any other political activist. Ideas are meaningless unless they get put into practice. The state gives the comfortable illusion that you're allowed to talk about such matters, just as long as you don't actually do anything about it. Let's imagine for a moment that every single prole is converted to anarchism tommorrow, do you really believe the state will just hand over their power willingly? Of course not. As soon as an uprising starts to overturn the state, they'll go full blown fascism to maintain their power.
no such thing.
>anarchism is a tempting ideology for me, convert me
Why would anyone want to live their lives letting someone else tell them what to do? They're only after their own interests, they only see people as pawns. The entirety of authority is an attempt to trick people into giving up their power so a select few can enforce their own. In representative 'democracies' like ours, the system was decided by a select few (original colonizers) who granted themselves the authority to do what they want, now 200 years later everyone born afterwards is 'tied down' to this system. Why should I have to obey what completely different men 200 years ago wrote down for me? The system is flawed by design because the way democracy in this system works is designed to be flawed. Therefore, you can never work your way out of a broken system into an unbroken system, you have to replace the system altogether. The illusion of the ruling class is to get people to shift the blame on themselves so they can pretend its not the system itself thats the problem, this narrative protects their power.
Obligatory stsrting guide: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-conquest-of-bread
Antifa are just stooges for neoliberalism.
'Fascism' is a spook and none of these people care about actually eliminating capitalism because capitalist consumerism is necessary to advance progressive idpol 'egalitarian' causes.
Antifa are the types of people to call you a 'class reductionist brocialist' for wanting to address working class issues instead of jumping on their bougie transgender queerPOC activism bandwagon.
They're a complete embarrassment to the left.
You're right, this was a retarded take. Most of the country hates white supremacists and they're objectively in the minority. So-called "multiculti" views are overwhelmingly popular in America and most are pro-immigration. But one gets a show on Fox News that earns millions of dollars a year through advertisements? Why is it that the YouTube algorithm favors Pew Research Center, Ben Shapiro, TPUSA (who have Nazis in their ranks) and whatever else? Why is it that ANTIFA organizations have CONSISTENTLY found out fascists to be working for GOP political campaigns, in the NRA, working for investment banks or real estate firms? Richard Spencer is a trust fund baby, on top of that his National Policy Institute is maintained by a guy who belongs to the conservative Regnery Publishing empire.
Because, evidently, there is an ideological schism within the bourgeoisie as a whole on whether or not being a racist is the way forward. Being an anti-racist doesn't make you a "stooge"
i like and support antifa. rip comrade Heather Heyers.
lol everyone else is sucking or getting sucked and the guy on the left is just awkwardly holding his dick looking lost
that would be me in that situation
>yup, you may be wondering how I got into this mess.
>well it all started when I got a call from George Soros about a college campus speaking event I needed to disrupt…
Here antifa is normally associated with:
Homeless, drug addicted, poor hygiene, figting police for no reason, arson in cities, protesting random people etc.
They have always done the rightwing a huge favor, besides it looks hillarious when they get beaten up by cops and actual NutSacs.
Edgy. But lets be real, even if it happened (which it will not) you will be watching from a pc screen in a basement.
At least we know you will not be doing anything, leave that to your betters.
the problem with anarchists is the same problem with the ranks of punk kids, hardcore kids, straight edge kids, etc. that they mainly draw from: they're insufferable tryhards who interpret everything through a localist interpersonal perspective, think their artistic sensibilities make themselves politically superior, and launder their narcissism though group affiliation.
Also it's been pointed out before but if anarchists were serious about attacking the establishment they'd be going after government officials and business owners, not engaging in photo ops by bullying 4chan nerds and then getting pro bono help from the National Lawyers Guild and fawning coverage from their twitter mutuals in the media.
anarchism is just aesthetic
the little stickfight and twitter brigades are illiterate dorks with shit optics
the covert cells on the other hand seem surprisingly competent and i'll give them credit for hacking actual neo nazi groups
5/10. Bring back the Panthers.
>getting pro bono help from the National Lawyers Guild
It's funny how you imply this is a bad thing, but the NLG was literally set up to provide legal aid to jailed communists and labor organizers (who often battled fascists) in the 1930s.
The far right guys break the law and wind up in the clink and they're on their own for the most part. No bail money. No legal support. RIP. The reason the left is better at street politics is because they've been doing it a lot longer.
>Because, evidently, there is an ideological schism within the bourgeoisie as a whole on whether or not being a racist is the way forward. Being an anti-racist doesn't make you a "stooge"
Ding ding ding. Very dialectical.
What I would look at are the types of bourg (the industries they own) who are playing footsie with the far right. I will reckon you will discover many primary-sector industries including resource extraction and also manufacturing – these face risks on the global marketplace, so a kind of socially right-wing protectionism is in their interests. Anti-immigration policies here likewise intensify exploitation of migrant workers, while still remaining dependent on them. This isn't to say the left should just "side with" socially liberal tech companies are whatever.
Also, while "4chan nerds" have been a type of fascist, there were a decent number of far right guys who had been showing up to disrupt left-wing protests in the United States pulled from the criminal, lumpenproletariat underworld like the Rise Above Movement (pictured), which emerged out of the Southern California racist skinhead scene. One photo shows the gang assaulting a member of Revolutionary Communist Party in Charlottesville.
This… was a bit of a problem. Although the feds tore the guts out of RAM shortly thereafter and jailed most of the members on charges of organized conspiracy to commit violence. I think one fled to Greece to hide out with the Golden Dawn.
I'm not sure how fed investigations work, but it's my impression a lot of antifa doxxing work makes it into these investigations because they uncover crimes (like… pictured). That was my impression of just reading some of the federal court affidavits. I wonder to what extent the feds have basically outsourced some of their investigative capacity to these antifa groups. In one sense, you might argue they're "on the same side," but the way it works in practice is that the antifa groups expose these guys committing crimes on doxxing websites, Twitter feeds, etc. – and the feds read all that stuff anyways and list it in their investigations as "open source intelligence."
Mainly I think the antifa strategy is to force the contradiction in fascism's "dual character." It has a dual character because it simultaneously seeks to challenge the state's monopoly on the use of force, while also identifying with the state and targeting various "subversives" and "threats to the social order" (an ocean of perceived threats ranging from POCs, immigrants, LGBTs, communists, etc.). This is why you got the weird image of these neo-Nazi platoons marching around with fascist flags and those "Blue Lives Matter" flags with the blue line representing the police. They think they're above the law, basically. This kind of politics isn't really sustainable.
Incidentally, I just learned that the leader of a militia that was rounding up Central American migrants on the New Mexico border at gunpoint was just arrested on federal firearms charges – the feds looked into him and discovered he was a felon, and thus prohibited from possessing firearms. But it was journalists and antifas that spread the video of his group rounding up the immigrants. The militia was also shut down from raising funding from payment processors. It's a fairly big and sudden blow to the group.
I think there's a tendency among some ultras to want to attack fascists directly, like with left-wing militias or something like that. But I think that's a bad idea and you should not do that. Like what are you going to do? Go down to the border and get into a gunfight with a right-wing border militia? First of all, you stand a good chance of getting yourself killed. Secondly, the border militia guys would love that, encouraging the kind of border militarization which benefits them in the first place. That is how the dynamic of fascism's "dual character."
>platoons marching around with fascist flags and those "Blue Lives Matter" flags with the blue line representing the police
This is a misinformed take.
Those are 2 distinctly separate schools of thought.
If you listen to any far-right podcast they constantly attack the pigs and bootlickers alike. Only right-wing conservative boomers still align themselves with 'bluelivesmatter' etc. During the election the far right begrudgingly put up with the boomers for a while but then gave up on them.
However I think 'Antifascism' perfectly fits this dual character idea though considering your previous insight.
They constantly ramble about how rebellious and edgy they are while simultaneously working with feds, mass media journalists, and NGOs. NO actually productive leftist group has the types of connections that Antifa has which solidifies my view they're controlled op. I also find it strange how the feds seem to go out of their way to punish fascists while seemingly giving these types much milder punishments for similar actions.
Every time antifa-types are arrested the vast majority are revealed to have come from upper-middleclass to upper class backgrounds or in prestigious positions like Uni professors, see Tim Kaine's son for an example.
In contrast when fascists are doxed/arrested they're often found to be in some type of trade or working minimum wage.
If the fascists are lumpenprole than the antifascists are lumpen-petitbourgeoisie,
I view them as nothing more than defensive antibodies for the ruling neoliberal capitalist order.
>Ben Shapiro, TPUSA (who have Nazis in their ranks)
Pro-immigration(as long as it's legal!!!) anti-racist neocons are promoted by youtube algos? Who knew?
Fascists hate those people more than they hate the left, this is how I know you've been gaslit by reddit or wherever else so you can't see controlled op when it's right in front of you.
Read a book instead of buzzfeed and no, settlers doesn't count.
I don't see how the manufacturing industry which are the main ones who lobbied for legislation to allow them to outsource jobs and spearheaded the push for more immigration/cheap labor would be allied with anti-immigration populist types.
I mean, was Cesar Chavez a fascist?
>The UFW during Chavez's tenure was committed to restricting immigration. With the introduction of new laws restricting immigration like the Alien Contract Labor Act of 1885, Chavez and other like minded individuals fought the influx of people that could hurt their cause
>In its early years, the UFW and Chavez went so far as to report illegal immigrants who served as strikebreaking replacement workers (as well as those who refused to unionize) to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
I know for certain modern antifascist radlib types would call him one if he did that today.
I don't have any problem with antifa. The movement on its own isn't really going to help fight capitalism and it's naive to assume that antifascist groups can't be co-opted by business intersts. However, at least in America, fascists and stormfront types are a real threat to any kind of leftist organizing, so any group or movement that intimidates or doxes them is, to me, worth supporting at least to some extent.
>antifa are the real fascists and fascists are the revolutionaries
>I also find it strange how the feds seem to go out of their way to punish fascists while seemingly giving these types much milder punishments for similar actions.
Nah. That's not a conspiracy. It's just that fascists are morons who talk to the cops because they think they're smart and they have terrible opsec, so when they fuck up they bring the whole house of cards down with them. They assume they can't or won't get in trouble because they're arrogant.
The one notable case of an antifascist getting in trouble since this whole round of fighting started was when he (allegedly) clocked some guy in the head with a bike lock in California. Locking this dude up was a far right cause celebre for awhile, but he eventually pleaded down to no contest and received probation instead of prison. The far right blamed an unfair justice system but the boring truth is that he shut the fuck up and got a lawyer.
>who served as strikebreaking replacement workers
Important distinction. He wasn't against undocumented migrant labor as such – but specifically migrant labor being used to break an ongoing strike. UFW had undocumented members.
I need to stress just how much better the left in the U.S. is at the backbone infrastructure. If you'd have gotten pinched at one of these demos there'd be someone from the legal network on you in a flash shouting NAME / DOB over and over while you're getting dogpiled by cops to get your info. Immediately hook you up with pro-bono legal support, bail funds, and when you get bailed out there's a group of comrades in the courthouse parking lot waiting with pizza, coffee and a ride. Not doing that is a major no-no. The left is built on that sense of solidarity. That's why the left is better.
The far right? It's a joke. Not only are these groups (usually) led by tyrannical little weasels who sit in the back and encourage their people to commit crimes, once you get pinched you are utterly on your own – and with typically zero experience or training at handling the police who have ways of making you talk. They rat on each other to save their own asses constantly. And these are groups: hierarchial organizations with chains of command and thus easily liable in civil lawsuits for any resulting crimes. And whatever lawyers they have suck at it. Any alt-right guys reading this: do you think Richard Spencer is going to sit in a parking lot for hours to bail out some lowlife foot soldier? Hell no. If you join one of these groups, you are always expendable. If you want to wear a uniform, get used up and then tossed aside, join the U.S. Army – at least they'll pay for your college.
>muh evil jordan peterson and sargon of akkad and drumpf are literal nazis
They are all completely deranged retards who attack the wrong people 99% of the time.
They actually believe retards like pic related are scary, literal boomers and deformed zoomers.
It's epic and red pilled to bully old people and children but i don't think it's helping anyone.
Antifa are literally nazis because they beat up nazis. It's possible to peacefully advocate for the genocide of entire races and the establishment of a white ethnostate, so antifa are the biggest threat to our democracy. I think we need to side with the fascists here.
recent converts are so fucking retarded
>They actually believe retards like pic related are scary
lol the enormous italian-american teen in the sofa-material coat is pretty funny.
antitfascists in the U.S. are more used to dealing with guys like this which was the TWP who tried to march into a richard spencer speech in michigan, unsuccessfully i would add because they got beat up and turned back. the organization imploded shortly thereafter when the fuhrer of the group (in front) was caught fucking his second-in-command's wife in their indiana trailer. "the night of the wrong wives." cringe disaster all around.
kind of a goof troop but nevertheless dangerous in a qualified sense and would rely on skinhead thugs like the guy in front left. that was the last time the proper WNs tried to physically contest space and go toe-to-toe with antifascists in the U.S. and not just pop up for five-minute flash mobs screaming about the USS liberty incident. they'll probably keep doing that for the forseeable future or at least until the 2020 elections.
also the expressions on their face is that of defeat when looking at the considerably larger antifascist crowd (that had some big guys in the mix) in front of them. although, credit to them, they did within seconds after that screengrab attempt to break through, but their heart wasn't in it.
Also you would know that 'undocumented' immigrants are the biggest force for strikebreaking then and still are today.
To be fair the twp was more class conscious than most radlibs
That's more evidence of systematic support/connections rather than 'solidarity. The status quo doesn't view antifascists as being harmful to their goals since they're obsessed with countering a fringe group rather than doing anything productive. See >>2864584
If these people were to do any activism that *really* pissed off the system (infastructure destruction, industrial monkeywrenching, or yellow-vest type protests) you can guarantee they would never getting an easy way out from the system and would be hammered in the courts.
>To be fair the twp was more class conscious than most radlibs
They were frauds. Heimbach would tell reporters the money they raised was being used to train white men to become welders in their shop, and the reporter would go "can I see it?" and Heimbach pulled a steamed hams-style "ahh… some other time." Sensing this would be embarrassing, they only later published some pictures showing them trying to weld in an unventilated room.
And their dues were like $20 per month: $240 per year. But with a few hundred members at most it was enough for him and his wife to support themselves in rural Indiana. Hell, the D*SA charges $60 annually in comparison and they'll at least hook you up with a union if you're looking.
Yes, obviously, destroying physical infrastructure is way more serious and a major federal crime compared to getting into fist fights. Not sure what your point is – and I'm not sure why you're implying becoming a terrorist is a "productive" strategy. Sounds like an easy way to destroy your movement and wind up in prison. The left tried this back in the 1970s: it didn't work.
But seriously my view is that antifascism has to be about popular mobilization of large numbers of ordinary people – most of whom are not going to be anti-capitalists or whatever. Grandma should be out there swinging her purse around, etc. None of this is new and people have been doing this for a long time, and the main thing is that fascist violence has a "dual character" like I was saying where they challenge the state's monopoly on force while also directing their own use of force against the left. This is designed to provoke a violent left-wing reaction: the kind of "blow shit up" strategy you think will be more effective. But that will bring the full force of the state down on the left. Another term for this is "strategy of tension" practiced in Italy in the 1970s, which also saw collaboration between fascist terrorist groups and the Italian secret services.
On the "strategy of tension," I would add that that had probably been happening in the U.S. at least in some parts. Portland, Oregon is a pretty obvious example where there's this gang of civnats called Patriot Prayer which was discovered to be working closely with Portland police, including getting rides in police cars to and from demonstrations and so on. They were not Nazis but had some neo-Nazis in the mix, and would hold some rallies that'd bring in the Proud Boys (now in disarray) and some neo-Nazi types who'd leave their swazi flags at home.
These guys would also drive around and yell "Trump, bitch!" at random strangers. If anyone shouted back they'd jump out and stomp them. They'd show up at left-wing protests or event spaces and harass them. They eventually stomped a random civilian who ended up filing charges, and later text messages between the Portland PD liaison working with these guys came out showing him giving tips on how to avoid arrest. There were one time when the right wingers would hold a demonstration in a park that is federal property, which authorized DHS riot cops to act as a policing authority. And pretty much immediately they blasted the crowd with pepper balls. It's my guess that these right-wing gangs were essentially controlled by the government and were being staged to test out civil unrest scenarios.
From a left perspective, it's a kind of a damned if you do / damned if you don't scenario. Do you not try to oppose these guys? They're coming to you. Can you imagine if a bunch of roving communists wearing body armor and masks drove into Odessa, Texas every weekend to try and instigate fights with the locals? But the right wingers are also working on the same side as the state and are trying to provoke you into overreacting so the cops can move in and crush you, round up people and put them in prison, etc.
Remember Marx observed that the lumpenproles (natural recruits for fascists) are easily bribed for the purposes of reactionary intrigue because of their lack of class consciousness. I think that's pretty much the story of the rise and fall of the alt-right, such as it was. There was a little-known story that in April 2016, Milo Yiannopolous (remember him?) was discovered serenading a group of white nationalists from the TRS forums including Richard Spencer at a private after-party in Dallas following a white nationalist conference. At the time, Milo was working for Steve Bannon would would later go on to work (briefly) in the White House before getting purged. The big campaign at the time on TRS – if you read it – was bullying anti-Trump conservatives, flooding comment sections, etc. Also used as a kind of vanguard to inject right-wing nationalist memes into the boomer sphere. Some of the neo-Nazi personalities like Mike Enoch would also hint at knowing Bannon and so on.
>While the neo-fascist alt-right is not entirely happy with President Donald Trump's first few months in office, one thing for which they are grateful is that the new administration is giving them free rein to engage in building their movement, unencumbered by any law enforcement scrutiny of their activities.
>"He's going to give us space to destroy," Michael "Enoch" Peinovich, the creator of The Right Stuff, an alt-right podcast network said during a Sunday guest appearance on "Fash the Nation," the movement's most popular web radio show.
>"He's going to give us space to operate, and frankly, it is space to destroy," Peinovich continued.
>"Now is the time that we have to make hay while the sun shines . . . while these investigations of 'domestic terrorist groups' are not being funded by the government, they're not being pushed by the Department of Homeland Security" argued one of the co-hosts of the program, an anonymous former Republican political staffer who calls himself Jazzhands McFeels.
The Salon article is misleading there – Enoch was referring to Bannon specifically. Anyways, Bannon was sacked from the White House within days of the Charlottesville fiasco. The strategy of tension backfired with the death of the girl. The left, also wisely, didn't take the bait and opted for the popular mobilization.
Antifa is just a CIA honeypot to discredit the left
>buzzword is just a buzzword buzzword to buzzword the buzzword
reported for shitposting
Ultimately what the right (and the state) want is to radicalize the left to such a degree that it can be more easily marginalized and suppressed. The turbo-militant cells of the 1970s like the Weather Underground are ideal for that. Fascists, because they are easily bribed by elements within the state that find them useful, attack the left in an attempt to provoke this compaction cycle and turbo-radicalization. I think that strategy was basically applied in 2017 but this largely backfired and resulted in Bannon's ouster from the White House. The alt-right collapsed pretty much after that. The antifascists more or less didn't fall into this trap – willing to use physical force to resist the fascist threat but not overreacting at the same time. A delicate balance.
And I would say the organizing that was done – resisting fascist encroachments but not over-escalating – was necessary as a way of channeling the fear and anxiety produced by the fascist threat into a more or less successful strategy. If they had done nothing, the fascist "strategy of tension" would have continued escalating, further raising the likelihood of provoking the left into acting out rashly and unstrategically.
Hitler was a staunch monarchist and nationalist
Hitler was not a monarchist
>I praise communist chinks and have no idea what im talking about
During WW1 when he was in the German army, he praised the monarchy and was in full support of it. He joined the German Worker's party because he thought it was socialist.
This. Definitely this.
and ANtifa is still a thing? haha oh man you guys..
>During WW1 when he was in the German army, he praised the monarchy and was in full support of it. He joined the German Worker's party because he thought it was socialist.
ok yeah maybe during his time in the military he supported the monarchy.
However he then went on to write about how monarchy is out dated etc
It will be when you guys show up in the streets again
He let him fucking rot in exile, even after having conquered the Netherlands who held him prisoner in one house, always cracked jokes about the Kaisers incompetence, and constantly alluded to how easy it would be for him to kill him. monarchists don't enjoy imprisioning their monarchs and making fun of them>>2875130
The logo Max Gebhard created, and which symbolized ☭TANKIE☭ communism, and fell out of use in the Eastern Bloc, while anti-fascism remained a talking point with a morphed meaning. And the logo you just used is that of the Antifa M in Göttingen, which has a completely different history and would most likely be representative of anti-German and critical groups today.
So it's a mixed bag, on the one hand, anti-fascism can mean collecting scrap paper so that the Neues Deutschland newspaper can be printed in the required quantities. On the other hand, it can be symbolic of critical groups openly engaging and fighting against new and old fascists alike at the same point and time.
It's impossible to make broad statements about Antifa, because its an umbrella of so many different ideas, and has entirely different histories on both sides of the wall.
ALL I WANNA SAY IS PUNCH NAZI ANTIFA GAMES IS A THING! There is no way a genuine leftist even a liberal would make garbage like this. This has to be something else. Why is the center-"left" so fucking cringy and uneloquent in their propaganda. WTF MAN! Who looked at these thiings and really believed it would spread class anything!
>prisongay on the left wondering what the got himself into
Total faggots. They protest both the nationalist rallies and the yellow vest shit in canada. They cannot hold the ground dialectically, they have to outnumber us 3-1 otherwise they immediately run away, they stand around saying they won't support authoritarian people who want to take away speech and humans rights by labeling everyone against them nazis and waving signs that say no speech for nazis and no platform for hate and etc. Which is laughable and damn did they squirm when I finally shouted that point outbloud enough for them to hear over their droning and loudspeaker garbage. Also they do chants. Chants are for mouthbreathers. People with actual thoughts form little groups and discuss shit at rallies. Masses of people in blackmasks who shout chants and then are so cringey they write articles celebrating the militancy of the chants.
Total joke. Fighting them is entertaining though.
Red rover red rover, we call antifa over.
Antifa are an absolute necessary. You cannot have a revolution without revolutionaries. You cannot win the world to Communism with hugs. Debate and other forms of persuasion are important but having people willing to stand up to the Fascists in toe to toe combat is critical for the success of Communism everywhere. Do you think the revolution will fall into our hands? No. You have to reach out and take it. By the throat if necessary.
Back in the Lost Luggage with you.
You wear a mask like a zorro larper.
We show our faces. It really is that simple, I'm not a terrorist. Antifa are some weak ass terrorists though, national flags scare em off like crosses to a vampire.
I cast turn antifa! Just hold a flag up and watch the line they form fall back.
Why dress up for the part if you are just going to crap your pants and run away?
Weak as hell. Antifa is fighting a ghost and will create the deathsquads they so fear.
Also useful idiots, amazing to see counter culture revolutionaries attacking random right leaning people for establishment thought crimes. Their harassments will galvanize the workers, they apparently seek to help, into a powerful force for nationalism.
I am not against antifa tbh, they are incredibly useful, all one need do in order to create massive media hype is just call up your local chapter and tell em some racists are having a rally, bam hordes of low Autism Level blackmasks show up and what would have been a lame-o gathering of a hundred people supporting traditional values turns into a massive shenanigan filled cop patrolled standoff and then the articles come and all that free advertising causes membership to explode.
Your weird policies and ideas don't work but accelerate the burning of civ. So in the end nationalists need antifa, very useful recruitment tool.
Shouldn't you go to bed, you have school tomorrow you massive faggot
Someone has gotta bump this ghosttown dude.
Boomtown. Like an abandoned mining village.
What was the boom though eh?
Want me to teach you how to meme? I have some solid pdfs on the subject, it'd be more fun that way.
Do you lot praise digits? It matters greatly.
Everyone that bitches about Antifa are just but hurt whitetarian fascist sympathizers.
At worst Antifa is having no effect and simply raising awareness of the growing threat of Neo-Nazis. At best they are legitimately building class consciousness.
>ib4 y-y-y-y-y-yyou're pushing the white working class away.
Fuck their punk ass feelings. And fuck your bullshit lying that the white working class are just babes lost in the woods. We are so fucking beyond that excuse being plausible now.
Not every white person turns toward fascism, so I've never understood that excuse
Because it's an excuse used by internet faggots which are out of touch with reality.
Just like >>2889308 mentions "recruitment tool" but the only thing they are getting is just retards shitting about it on the internet, but not actually doing anything.
In their minds the "nationalists" are growing, yet their meetups and marches sport even less people that usual.
>white working class are just babes lost in the woods
This is what /pol/yps actually believe in though, they literally think that the white man is some friendly innocent giant who always gets cheated and is just too damn GOOD and stupid to actually understand anything, but somehow they know what's up.
The only people out of touch with reality are the ones that haven't seen that the neo-liberal jewish dominated western world is over. There's a beautiful power vacuum that is being filled and if europe and the rest of the west's trends are any sign it sure as heck isn't going to be filled with commies. You lot have the misfortune of your rhetoric being used as the moral standard for this phase and that has givin you a stank you won't be able to get off.
they are absolutely based and they are the reason why spencer and his neo-nazi crew are not out there giving talks at universities and converting more and more impressionable youths to the alt-right
>The only people out of touch with reality are the ones that haven't seen that the neo-liberal jewish dominated western world is over.
Not even close.
They are however making bank selling you an identity. Get back to work, how else will you afford your walmart camo cargo pants, skull masks, nazi flags, and thrift store jump boots?
i just love this fucking picture, every time i look at it i notice all the details, its like a painting
>So in the end nationalists need antifa, very useful recruitment tool.
Posts like this always remind me of those James Bond villains who go "you've fallen into my trap, Mr. Bond!"
Antifa is doing an excellent job to keep fascists down.
Deplatformin, doxing, alerting payment processing companies like paypal that they are making deals with fascists and educating the public really works.
Richard Spencer has now sunk into irrelevancy thanks to Antifa deplatforming him.
That Antifa is considered a massive annoyance by fascists as well as center righ liberals with sympathies for fascists only goes to show that Antifa is doing something right.
The goal of fascism is to divide the working class along racial lines, gender lines, or between immigrant and native workers, etc. so anti-fascism is a prerequisite for building unity among the working classes. This is why every true communist is an anti-fascist.
The right offers a devil's bargain by saying that if you're a white man, if you turn on your immigrant brother then you can get a better deal from your capitalist master. It's like a truce in the class war (you're still gonna get fucked though). But you see now the Democrats are doing the same thing, recognizing an intensifying class struggle, and are offering to freeze that struggle by locating the problem in an external enemy (Russia). It's basically smiley-faced fascism.
The right-wing nationalists when they do get into power are not very impressive. They're basically just another group of liberals.
>There's a beautiful power vacuum that is being filled and if europe and the rest of the west's trends are any sign it sure as heck isn't going to be filled with commies.
Bunch of retarded LARPers at best in the US. At worst, they're edgy liberals that counter-productively make right-wingers associate their boutique activist identity politics bullshit with the genuine Left.
anti-capitalist,anti free speach,bike lock swinging cowardly scum(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
Grow up. Free Speech is a myth
Human rights is a myth
Human worth is a myth
Humanity is a myth
My identity has nothing to do with their word games, they are also not selling me anything.
I happen to be well aware of my identity and ancestors. I can tell you for example that ancestors who shared my exact last name helped william the conqueror take england. I don't know what identity you are assuming zionists to be pushing on me, I certainly don't believe in white nationalism as that is a larp on the same tier as pan arabism, there is though some truth to civilizational brotherhood. Many nations can be part of the same wider civilization.
What? This is currently not about dividing the working class, the working class of our nations are being replaced by other nations at an alarming rate. It is not about dividing people its about acknowledging a divide that already exists. Muslims for example are not coming here with the intention of assimilating and joining western society but rather having western civ conform to them. Many cultural icons of theirs are openly calling for conquest of the west. This is a reality and a pressing one not some game or propaganda piece.
One can spin evil for propaganda pieces but one should not ignore evil because of its potential to be used as propaganda.
Nationalists don't seem to have a set policy list. A lot of it is dependant on the traditions and culture they are raising up. Chinese nationalism =/= American nationalism =/=British nationalism =/= Egyptian nationalism. I do concede though that the only nationalist at all is a nationalist for all and imperialism is downright nasty and suicidal. So called nationalists have a bad habit of becoming imperialists once they solidify control of their nation. Gotta stick to the principles.
Umm.. is that really your example of /yourguy/ who will fill the vacuum? That's lunacy and won't happen.
They keep white racist garbage in check. Love Them. Real patriots.
Well, I don't know what it's like in Europe but surveys of attitudes of Muslims where I live (in the U.S.) suggests their social views are equivalent to Catholics, who are relatively liberal by the standards of religious groups in the United States. Like I said, it might be different if you live in Germany or something like that, but I can only speak for myself and living in America and this is quite seriously a delusion in your head. Like do you think Ilhan Omar is someone who isn't assimilating to Western cultural norms or whatever? Other than the headdress – which is her right and her choice – she's a progressive liberal. What are you afraid of?
In any case there has been conflict and cooperation and exchange between Islam and Christendom since the beginning, and you could argue Islam is if anything a schismatic offshoot off Christianity. Your numerals (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) come from Arabic as does much of your Latin architecture. I don't have any beef with Muslims. A socialist group here would meet in a Mediterranean restaurant run by a Jordanian dude who was cool with them (including the main organizer, who was Jewish), and the socialists around here like to back Muslims up when fascist bigots would show up to mosques to protest. It's about building a relationship.
And before you tell me Ilhan Omar is a bizarre anomaly, she represents urban Minneaopolis with 100,000 Somali Muslims parked in there, and within the spectrum of the Democratic Party is based as fuck. She deserves our support.
Research Islam more than you have. I would also suggest looking at statistics for support of islamic policies among muslims in western countries, they want sharia here too and they've done this attempted takeover to many countries and it always goes same way. Why are hindus, buddhists, athiests, christians, jews and literally everyone thats ever been a neighbour with islam on shitty terms with them. They do not tolerate others and make quite belligerant neighbours. The slave trade that islam conducted on Southern Europe for example is pretty crazy, heck america was paying them tribute for the first while to stop muslim pirates from capturing and enslaving american sailors, that's why america made a navy.
You can literally go hear this right from the horses mouth. They write books on the subject too "Black flags from X" is a pretty ok start. There is a literal rape jihad happening and western woman in our nations are being encouraged to conform to muslim morals and dress codes to avoid harrassment. To be really blunt, if you already knew this, and carried on as you were I would be pretty disturbed, that'd mean you are kinda covering it up. I for one cannot fathom how western women are not demanding that our nations do something about islam.
Now obviously not all not all not all, but certainly enough and arguably most (studies and polls suggest this). The ones that aren't backwards barbarians shouldn't be running here but should be fixing their home, very irresponsible and selfish of them. Brain drain is real. I also have no hatred for muslims, no racism here, they just need to spend their time among their own and doing whatever they all decide to do, sure as heck they shouldn't be here making our civilization shittier. I'd be ok with like a vacation treaty or some shit. Limited contact is great but diversity + proximity = war and both europeans and muslims are pretty good at war and prone to imperialism.
>Research Islam more than you have.
>Why are hindus, buddhists, athiests, christians, jews and literally everyone thats ever been a neighbour with islam on shitty terms with them.
Lemme fix that for you
>Research America more than you have.
>Why are literally everyone on shitty terms with them
Not american so that's irrelevant. I don't disagree though, imperialism generally doesn't work which is half my point. It has certainly generated a lot of animosity against america.
How does this tie in though? Are you a self hating american? Were you trying to pin an america jab on me? Its tangentally related beyond being snother example of shitty imperialism going wrong? Just wanted to throw barbs at the swamp?
This line of argument can only operate on someone who doesn't know any Muslims. I live in a city with a booming Muslim immigrant population in the U.S. and every single one I've met have been ordinary working people who are just trying to get by. Like I'm saying the only way to believe that Islam is incompatible with the shit that you're doing is if you don't actually get out and talk to people. Mind your own business and focus on your own problems, basically, and stop being afraid of everybody. You've gotta live your life, dude.
And I don't know shit about Muslim pirates from the 17th century lmao. Not sure what your point is there. And I don't even know what you mean by sharia. It means personal arbitration? Churches here do that. Like I said, I grew up in the middle of George W. Bush country in the South so I'm used to fundamentalist religious people. Islam ain't shit compared to some of the kids I grew up with who called themselves Christian. I've been to gay bars with Muslim women wearing hijabs lol
A neo-Nazi group targeted an immigrant heavy neighborhood here with posters, and I went down there, saw one of the posters outside of someone's shop, went in and grabbed the owner – a Muslim small businessman who could barely speak any English – and explained to him who the group was, and showed him pictures on my phone. "They don't like Muslims. Very bad." He got the message and was concerned by this. We then tore the posters down and I said if he sees anymore, to tear them down as well. Then he shook my hand and he thanked me. Then I bought a Vimto and left, then went and ate a restaurant owned by some Ismaili Muslims who had a portrait of Aga Khan on the wall. Then I talked to them for awhile – they were from India and very nice.
And it's not like every Muslim agrees with everyone on some agenda. A restaurant owner I knew where I used to live despised Saudis, for instance – because they are arrogant rich kids. He also hated Bin Laden and all of those guys, and he especially didn't like the Jordanian monarchy. I respect people of faith.
Ok suit yourself.
I still reccomend reading the sources I suggested. Black flags from syria, black flags from rome etc. Also pick up a copy of the Quran. You are assuming I don't know muslims. Generally you are assuming I didn't do any research and arrived at the thoughts I did cause I enjoy them and am some xenophobic racist.
I get the information right from the horses mouth. As I said before not all not all not all. Your anecdotes are worthless. Sure we could both cruise around and find some reasonable muslims. That isn't my point. Go look at the numbers on the rape statistics. Go look at the imams openly talking replacement. Go look at what the Quran and Hadiths say about outsiders and spreading Islam. Go look at the terrorism statistics and I especially encourage looking at the nonwestern ones, you guys don't seem to care when the west is damaged so we can ignore that, there is enough examples of slaughtering in india and etc.
Sharia is a lot more harsh than you imply and will be applied to everyone if it is applied at all. Western women will find themselves increasingly harrassed. Ultimately I am not concerned, when the actual butchering starts I am sure you'll realize that you only have a home with one side. It makes sense that it is hard to convince morons of the danger, things are still too good here and there hasn't been a proper reassertment of reality for decades.
Just go research Islam, you will see, and when you see, if you have any decency, you will agree.
>Your anecdotes are worthless.
When you are faced with obstacles you can only act in this condescending way. You're asking me to give up what I see directly with my own two eyes and the friends I've made in favor of your pieced-together narrative. Of course ISIS is bad and whatever, but they were destroyed largely by Muslim armies on the ground. The idea that Islam at all poses an existential threat to Western countries is a narrative that sounds really compelling, but Islamism has never been able to build a mass base in Western countries.
>there is enough examples of slaughtering in india and etc.
I support the communist movement in India which allows members regardless of their religious background.
It isn't condescending merely an observation of fact. Anecdotes are irrelevant to the discussion of wider trends. Anyone attempting to hide in anecdotes is not operating logically.
It's simply not part of this conversation and making it so is incorrect.
If we want anecdotes though I know women personally who have suffered as part of this rape jihad I also know a couple pretty based muslim bros and one of my best friends was a turk who was born on 9/11, we used to fuck with him and say his homelands really made sure to celebrate his birthday with a bang. As I have said over and over again now, Not all not all not all which means there will be plenty of irrelevant anecdotal stories.
I am literally telling you to go read muslim sources. There is no point in talking with me about this for any length or trying to convince me, I don't have walls of info at my immediate fingertips and I am a secondary source anyway. Go read what they write and until you have done so you do not have the information to hold this conversation. Have you read any of the Quran or the Hadiths? Are you ok with the rampant violence, enslavement, rape, pedophilia, and imperialism presented? Have you looked at the numbers of rapes and how they are being systemically ignored and info on them suppressed by our governments? What about the more than a 1000 churches attacked each year in the last couple years in france? Black flags from syria was very explicit. Incite intercivilizational violence so islam can finally take the christian nations by destabalizing the middle east and allowing this wave of invaders and then cause terrorist attacks to piss off the locals and have the locals start to turn on the invaders which will drive more muslims into the arms of the jihadis. Then the jihadis get their war and they get to fly their flag in rome and own europe. They wrote this, I merely read it and believe them.
So I am happy to have this conversation till we both grow old and crone over, but my point is always going to come back to, go read what they write, go listen to what they preach, go observe their history, and go watch their propaganda. If it really is as harmless as you imply I am sure that won't be a problem, you'll read the stuff, find all the billion ways I am wrong, and come back with a great rebuttle about how everything I said was an evil racist lie.
I dare you, make an informed decision on Islam and risk that can of worms. But what more openness from me do you need? Do not believe me; go read the primary sources! I'm just a friendly neighbourhood /pol/ynesian that wandered in to shitpost on you commies.
I offered before but I saw a thread here where you lot were trying to improve your meme game so you stop getting pwned in the culture wars. I think thats a fun idea, /pol/ is getting fat and lazy and you lot firing on all cylinders would help them slim up and get good track times again. Want a bunch of baller pdfs about meme magic and how to properly utilize it? Way more in depth than the meme nonesense I've seen here. I collect books, I could dump a shitstack for your perusal.l
Memes are fundamentally a reactive medium so I'm not interested, but thanks.
But see, you're right about this agenda to wage civilizational warfare but you're mostly talking about extreme, schismatic Wahhabist fundamentalism. But you don't make distinctions between them and other Muslims. The photo I posted earlier was a politician in the Iraqi Communist Party and Moqtada Al Sadr, a Shia Islamist – their two parties are in coalition together in Iraq and are the largest politicial coalition in that country, and their forces were both on the front lines fighting ISIS and so on. In what way are they trying to "destabilize" the West? The Sadrists were an insurgent faction in the Iraq war, but that was because the U.S. military invaded the country.
But the right-wing answer to this is to give more weapons to the Gulf states which are pumping out all this Wahhabist stuff. All these right-wing populist parties have that as part of their agenda, along with hard-line support for Israel. So you're getting what you're voting for. Can't really help you.
I don't make distinctions because the only difference is how closely one follows the book. The radical elements are merely those of high faith who follow the books properly. Its not a sect thing. The books say what the books say. True believers will logically arrive at the same conclusions over and over again.
Arabs without islam who are not in my nation are absolutely of no concern to me. Like I said before happy to have a vacation treaty with them.
Why the strawmanning of the right as some monlith? I am not for funding israel or giving more weapons to shithole local client states. Why are we even talking left right establishment swamp? I'm hardly calling you lot SJW clinton libtards, if you want me to take what you say seriously I expect that same respect. I'm not talking to you as a member of a group but an individual nationalist with my own beliefs. I could give zero shits what people who aren't me have to say about nationalism, my nationalism is mine and mine alone, it is my relationship with my people afterall. This left and right stuff is pretty silly to me, I am only against that which doesn't respect natural law and is thus immoral and harmful.
Memes as a topic interest me more so I'd rather talk about that lol. First off memes are not reactionary. I am assuming here, but you think memes are images on the internet right? That's the only conclusion I can draw from thinking they are reactionary. Memes are literally small units of culture and information, the building blocks of thoughts and ideas.
>one needs to be educated above their peers to get a well paying job.
Is an example of a meme many are infected with. Its usually combined with
>universities are the place to get higher education.
So meme magic isn't about reactionary images. Its about tracking and understanding the proliferation of memes and then growing the ones you like. Lots of meme magic is about learning how to bypass peoples mental defenses and allow favourable memes to spread like viruses (its a lot like studying diseases tbh). Which is why nationalists are dominating at memetic warfare, everything is memetic and subject to reality manipulation, shock images are just an effective easily deployed route and only a couple parties in the meme war are playing with that understanding.
Its not about the images, this focus on images just leads to the nonesense of trying to push infographics as memes.
Infographics are memetic structures. Too big and too complex for infiltration, more data packed into a meme means it'll have more chance of triggering mental defenses by contradicting other held memes. Also it has to be at least partially truthful otherwise it is always at risk to a more true meme casually btfoing it or the meme won't spread well cause mental defenses are primarily aimed at "not truth"
>I am not for funding israel or giving more weapons to shithole local client states.
It doesn't matter whether you personally support it or not – this is the logical *effect* of reactionary politics, as by trying to contain radical Islam, the right sides with reactionary states such as those in the Middle East (the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia being the main one) to keep the situation "stabilized," which is producing radical Islamist terrorism in the first place. I'm afraid this is what happens when you don't face to the immortal science of Marxism-Leninism. Fascism, right-wing nationalism, etc. are not coherent ideological movements but compulsive forces of… reaction. This is why it's often the case that /pol/ doesn't even act – when they do act – according to their own ideological agenda in many cases, to the extent that such an agenda even exists in a coherent form.
>everything is memetic and subject to reality manipulation
Your point about memes being "reality manipulation" is a case in point. Another word for this is lies and propaganda. To be sure, the right is very good at this, but the memes function as mass-produced commodities with fetishistic properties that inhibit the ability to think and act objectively including *among your own fellow travelers.* The goal of the left, and I mean Marxists and those of us in the Marxist tradition, is to break out of the commodity as a structuring force. You are basically trapped within the coordinates of the status quo, and are trapped within fundamentally liberal / bourgeois coordinates.
I just asked you not to try and pin an imperial globalist system on me that larps as nationalistic and what do you immediately go and do. Obviously that doesn't work and has nothing to do with nationalism. Jihadis that invade the border should be shot, that is the only containment I advocate. I am not talking about imperialism. Is this really so hard to grasp?
The ones in control lie and use my beliefs as a bogeyman, you ate it up. What does funding other nations and playing imperial games have anything to do with nationalism? I'm more isolationist than that.
As for you being triggered by the term reality manipulation. Wtf dude? I just said that truth is what makes memes effective. Don't immediately try and spin this as lying. Also propaganda isn't evil and I'm literally drowning in your propaganda while I am cruising through /leftypol/. The word manipulation does not carry moral weight. It simply means to move. Reality manipulation isn't lying, it's literally doing the actions required to change the current reality into the reality one desires. FFS can you stop with that its not good and you lot here are literally reality manipulating as we speak, so this lack of self awareness isn't a good look. Again memes are not commodities memes are literally the bytes that YOU construct your thoughts out of. There is no escaping, you merely have commie memes in your brain. The fact that you try and spin this as something to get out of is delusional, I can only assume you didn't get what I was trying to say.
Most of your opinion of Islam is based on the salifi whabbism, that's a pretty poor choice for understanding Islam.
Bruce Livesey estimates Salafi jihadists constitute less than 1.0 percent of the world's 1.2 billion Muslims (i.e., less than 10 million).
Off-topic, but apropos supergrace.jpg, has she ever expressed her political views? What I read, she's been a part of the 60's counter-culture whatever that's worth, fucking heel-turning boomers and, while I'm not one to blindly accept nomen est omen, played the role of May Day in A View to a Kill.
She kinda defies categorization. Like intersectional feminist that also blasts through racial and gender boundaries while being really anti-PC. I don't think she's all that political, though. I started posting pics of her because Zero Books did a video about why the left should try to break out of this image that we're like Bond villains or something with a pic of Zizek in a Mao suit, and I thought – fuck that. Bond villains are sexy. Grace Jones played a KGB agent in that. I want to be like Grace Jones.
> Antifa is an anarchist paramilitary organisation funded by the Jew, Soros, for purposes of political and currency control.
Big if true
>Big if true.
Didn't you guys come from /pol/ a long ass time ago, this is common knowledge there
20 seconds of google fu, there is much better evidence of course and I'm pretty sure someone got a picture of antifa members being paid. Also while I was protesting at a yellow vest event in canada antifa crashed the party, everyone in black masks had the exact same sign saying "Dump Trump" and then a link to socialist.ca. In Canada. Dozens of antifa members with anti trump signs protesting a canadian anti carbon tax, anti censorship, and anti UN compact for migration protest. Just wat. What does trump have to do with anything? That's how you can tell their shit is funded. When they show up with 50 copies of the same sign with 50 identical sticks to put em on that have nothing to do with the local issues that people are actually here talking about but everything to do with the political shenanigans in the imperialist central power nearby. Pretty obvious that the yellow vests in canada was organic people on the street, each person had their own issues they were going off about and the signs/dialectic to match it. While the other side was unified but irrelevant and aimed at issues that don't apply here. Also despite being outnumbered and encircled we stood our ground longer. The antifa members all froze and went home after a few hours, that's the difference between paid goons and organic nationalists standing for their soveriegnty, we will suffer discomfort for longer for our beliefs than antifa has been shown to do.
While I am dropping pills does anyone want the clip of the mother of that woman who died at Charlottesville telling the cameras at the scene that her daughter died of a heart attack and thus demonstrating the car never hit her? That one fucking hurt to see not gonna lie, right from the mother live at the scene.
Also I've decided I like /leftypol/ you are now stuck with me. Gonna shit up your threads and argue against your imperialistic communism till you all join me :)
>He doesn't know