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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

A collective of people engaged in pretty much what the name suggests
Winner of the 77nd Attention-Hungry Games
/x/ - Paranormal Phenomena and The RCP Authority

April 2019 - 8chan Transparency Report
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File: 2d8fed8658fe41f⋯.jpg (766.29 KB, 3000x1750, 12:7, Mumsnet-1.jpg)

 No.2856439

I partook in the general shitting up of the Cockshott thread (sorry about that). Let's discuss it here instead. Who is most materialist, the gender crits or the genderists? Is Cockshott right? What about the CPGB-ML?

Lets keep that shit contained, and try to be nice to eachother. A trans comrade is a comrade even if there is disagreement.

Food for discussion: detransitionist chicks talk about their experiences https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxVmSGTgNxI&t=995s

VOL EDIT: From now on this is the only thread where trans discourse is allowed. Report other threads which bring up the topic.

Post last edited at

 No.2862864

>>2862797

>Uptake will not be universal.

than it shall be compulsory


 No.2862866

>>2862859

>Who will be doing the burger flipping and cleaning toilets?

robots


 No.2862880

>>2862859

Former landlords and executives as part of their rehabilitation.


 No.2862924

>>2856645

Trans people have done more to cement gender roles than anything in the last 50 years. Any time someone feels uncomfortable with their lot in life, it's no longer an indication that gender is a uselezs concept, it's become an indication that gender is perfectly valid, but you're just a DIFFERENT one.


 No.2862927

>>2862924

I think this might be true of your prototypical binary trann, but there is now a very large surge of genderqueers who, not purposefully, are basically living gender abolition in actuality. When you have a person with a vagina, who said they are sort of a dude, while wearing a mini-skirt and makeup, gender becomes nonsensical.


 No.2862936

>>2862924

Yeah like >>2862927 said, you're actually behind the times. That's what I mean by gender acceleration. 1990s crossdressers lead to 2000s transexuals, which then lead to 2010s genderqueers, and by 2020 there will probably be some new gender expression we can't even predict. My guess is some advance in medical technology which creates a new form of genitalia, we we get xhemales or whatever the fuck.


 No.2862940

>>2859088

Imagine believing that working in a factory is a fulfilling life.


 No.2862944

>>2860484

>roles traditionally reserved for women in leftist orgs

Spooks


 No.2862956

>>2861076

>biological women have the right to their own segregated sports competitions.

We're hitting levels of bourgeois that shouldn't be possible.


 No.2862979

>>2862936

>My guess is some advance in medical technology which creates a new form of genitalia, we we get xhemales or whatever the fuck.

>geting excited about new commodities

fuck off

>>2862936

>That's what I mean by gender acceleration

Gender acceleration doesn’t exist because gender isn’t quantifiable.


 No.2862985

>>2862843

>Except it clearly does, because they're doing the job. Women work now dude

That's blnot a good thing


 No.2862986

>>2862936

Cool. Meanwhile outside of your Bay Area hipster circles, effemenate men are being targeted by reactionaries who feel threatened by transgender people.


 No.2862988

>>2862986

Forgot to put "effemenate" in scare quotes


 No.2862993

>>2862979

>>geting excited about new commodities

>fuck off

<technological advancement is reactionary

>Gender acceleration doesn’t exist because gender isn’t quantifiable.

You can quantify the number of people who are gender nonconforming, quantify the way that number has changed and increased over the past few decades, and then project that trend into the future. The accelerationist position is that this increasing trend is a good thing and should go faster.

>>2862986

How is that different than any other point in history? Reactionaries have always targeted any men that step outside of their rigid gender roles. Women, too. They're reactionaries. They feel threatened by men having long hair, let alone transgender people existing.


 No.2862997

>>2862993

>technological advancement is reactionary

That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that creating a new sex will have ZERO use value and will just be another commodity.

>>2862993

>You can quantify the number of people who are gender nonconforming, quantify the way that number has changed and increased over the past few decades, and then project that trend into the future.

That number doesn’t matter. “Identifying” as “genderqueer” doesn’t change shit. Gender exists as a way society handles the differences between sex. So Identifying as “genderqueer” doesn’t change anything. It doesn’t end the female monopoly on reproduction.

>>2862993

>The accelerationist position is that this increasing trend is a good thing and should go faster.

N*0=0 Regardless of how much you increase the value of N.


 No.2863012

>>2862997

>That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that creating a new sex will have ZERO use value and will just be another commodity.

It's use value is in destroying the concept of sex entirely.

>Gender exists as a way society handles the differences between sex.

But it also exists as a way to segregate the working class and reduce class consciousness. Identifying as genderqueer doesn't change anything, except to erode gender as a social construct.

>N*0=0 Regardless of how much you increase the value of N.

You literally just said gender exists.

I'm just saying that it would be better if it didn't. Stop being autistic.


 No.2863045

>>2862993

"Tranny" will replace "faggot" as the default snarl word for anything uncouth in the next decade. Screenshot this.


 No.2863048

>>2862993

1950: "You're not a REAL MAN if you like these things."

1990: "Yeah, sure, I suppose guys can do whatever they feel like."

Today: "You're a REAL WOMAN if you like these things."


 No.2863050

>>2863048

The dialect is in motion.


 No.2863053

>>2863050

>returning to the original position is a dialectic


 No.2863057

>>2863053

>people having their gender assigned to them and people choosing their own gender is the same thing

it's like you can't see where this is obviously going.

the next step is people forgoing gender entirely, because it's obviously made up bullshit


 No.2863059

>>2863057

You severely underestimate the kinds of things people will believe if socially encouraged to. Several decades from now this will evolve into an entire religion centered around "male souls" and "female souls".


 No.2863062

>>2863059

Except people are forgoing religion too, because it's also obviously made up bullshit. They just pick and choose from a spiritual shopping cart and construct their own bullshit religions about chakras and aliens or whatever the fuck. Gender will be the same, as will everything else under late-stage capitalism. We're at a point of social "development" where everything is just running together into a slurry of nonsense and no one really believes in anything.


 No.2863068

>>2863062

I doubt it. Traditional gender roles still exist. There's too much shitflinging. If you try to be gender crit they'll label you a "nazi meanie" and if you go to the other side they'll call you a "mentally ill liberal". Anyone who does something gender non conforming will get attacked from both sides for different reasons.

>just wait until the trannies win!

Not gonna happen. I think most people know on an instinctual level that there's something wrong with transgender ideology. People are too stupid to do anything in response besides retreating into tradcuckery though.


 No.2863070

File: f7471595c25425b⋯.jpg (35 KB, 480x360, 4:3, 90cVlcJUJblfc8dXeYpzzON_Ze….jpg)

>>2863068

Pic related. Trying to destroy an idea by building up a war with some single obviously unacceptable alternative is the best way to ENTRENCH it.


 No.2863092

>>2862927

"Genderqueer" is just a modern way of clowning.


 No.2863103

>>2860570

Yeah but you have a lot of naive brainlets who interpret this idpol shit as muh Whyte peopo suck or whatever. I'm a person of color and sure some white people have more privilege than me so do a lot of poc. I know a lot in my family who resent white people because of idpol but I never have because I know at the end were all Proles and color has nothing to do with anything. I think idpol causes dysfunction within the left. It becomes less about figuring out ways of organizing against capitalism and more about a dick measuring contest between who's more oppressed


 No.2863113

>>2863012

>It's use value is in destroying the concept of sex entirely.

Creating more sexes doesn’t destroy the concept of sex. It multiplies it.

>>2863012

>But it also exists as a way to segregate the working class and reduce class consciousness. Identifying as genderqueer doesn't change anything

The people identifying as “genderqueer” aren’t prols, their the unemployed children of Labor Aristocrats and Porky.

>>2863012

>I'm just saying that it would be better if it didn't. Stop being autistic.

This is true, but the strategy your taking to a gender free world will backfire on you creating more, not less genders.


 No.2863545

>>2862697

Why "build a mass movement" if they'll be no mothers to raise the children of that movement? If there are no healthy, stable families to support a classless society?


 No.2863631

>>2863545

Children will be raised communally, instead in psychotic and unnatural nuclear families.


 No.2864000

unstable ego formations and so on and so on


 No.2864057

>>2859088

>Homosexuality, Trannies, and all other kinds of mental issues are caused the worker alienation from their labour.

>A man working in a factory with friends does not contemplate whether or not he is a pan sexual other kin etc etc.

Imagine actually being this fucking stupid, this fucking illiterate.

Factory life is deeply alienating, in fact it is arguably the single strongest example of worker alienation from their labor because it reduces the laborer to nothing more than another mere aspect of the capital machinery, just another machine that exists to work other machines. If what you said had the even slightest lick of truth to it, we would see a massively higher proportion of homosexuals becoming apparent in factory labor, you stupid illiterate memeing dipshit.


 No.2864104

>>2864057

>Imagine actually being this fucking stupid, this fucking illiterate.

<Everyone I diagree with is stupid!

child/10

>Factory life is deeply alienating

under capitalism yes, Communism not so much

>in fact it is arguably the single strongest example of worker alienation from their labor because it reduces the laborer to nothing more than another mere aspect of the capital machinery,

Under Communism man is the master of the machine thus is rewarding not alienating

>If what you said had the even slightest lick of truth to it, we would see a massively higher proportion of homosexuals becoming apparent in factory labor, you stupid illiterate memeing dipshit.

Post industrial capitalism is more alienating than industrial capitalism thus more mental disorders


 No.2864208

>toddler boy likes dress over pants

>"Whoops I guess he's transgender now! Better set him up for his life-long journey to fufil his True Identity™ as a girl!"

I didn't realize humans come out of the womb with a complete index of contemporary stereotypical male/female fashion and mannerism.

The grand irony of transgenderism under capitalism is that it ultimately pushes extreme gender stereotypes if we were to treat it seriously as this "born in le wrong body" meme instead of its reality of a mental-identity disorder.

TL;DR

Gender exists to an extent but only in so much as influenced by biological sex (I.E. hormone production differences between men and women, how the body develops in puberty etc.)


 No.2864242

File: 9867b154d01e57b⋯.png (452.97 KB, 565x643, 565:643, 9867b154d01e57b409dfd43aeb….png)

I don't like trannies.


 No.2864243

>>2864242

Me neither. I don't like LGBTQ+, SJWs and religions. Sometimes I question if I'm really a leftist


 No.2864250

>>2864242

Okay, really I don't care for the politics surrounding them rather than their existence.

>>2864243

What do those things have to do with base/superstructure. Change the base, identity will not be used to cope with declining quality of life. I would imagine the amount of ladyboys in Thailand would go down by a shitload when people will not need to prostitute themselves to make significant money.


 No.2864265

>>2864250

then why do leftists constantly support these things


 No.2864268

>>2864265

Those are liberals larping as leftists.


 No.2864272

>>2864265

Other way around. LGBTQ/SJWs get attracted to leftism by default because the rightwing literally wants to kill them all. Then they end up being a disproportionate percentage of orgs and communities, and this naturally biases things towards them. A true mass movement would probably not care that much about these issues, because there are more pressing things to deal with in the immediate future.


 No.2864278

>>2864268

>>2864272

I get that liberals do it too

and a lot of liberals claiming to be leftist

But even a lot of communists here support this shit


 No.2864310

>>2864265

>>2864250

>>2864278

>>2864243

leftists in general wish to end capitalist oppression.

capitalist oppression is not won by segmenting society due to retarded, anti-materialist spooks.

leftist understand that capitalist ideology makes people do retarded shit, like get into identity politics and fascism.

If an LGBTQ+ person is "mentally diseased", and as (some of) you retards say, and the mental disease is caused by capitalism, then, it makes no sense to condemn such people because it was outside their control to be born into capitalism. It is akin to condemning poor people for demanding they be treated less than shit. Also, bigotry (and other anti-materialist retardation) is maintained by the capitalist machine, which affects LGBTQ+, women, blacks, etc. So, in order to end retardation, we must end capitalism.

half assed comment since I'm tired of making the same point over and over.

gender critical feminism is identity politics level retardation.


 No.2864344

>>2864310

while that is a very good description of what leftism is it could fall pray to the no true scotsman fallacy.

While I completely agree with you things like "bigotry" are so subjective it could be applied to almost any negative sentiment


 No.2864374

Leftists should support LGBT if they ever want their dreamed communism in their country. LGBT communities are small, however they're very loud. If leftists will be against them, LGBT will support capitalism and raise chances significantly on capitalism not being defeated. Really, what's the big deal with letting minority do their weird fetishes in communism if they'll actually work? Rightwing can't ally with LGBT due to their ideology, leftwing should take advantage of this.


 No.2864379

>>2864374

LGB should absolutely be supported.

The T reinforces reactionary gender norms. Nothing wrong with being a feminine male or masculine female. "Feeling like a girl" doesn't make you a girl, and "feeling like a guy" doesn't make you a guy. It reduces gender to a personality trait, mired in sexual stereotypes.


 No.2864386

>>2864374

>Leftists should support LGBT if they ever want their dreamed communism in their country. LGBT communities are small, however they're very loud. If leftists will be against them, LGBT will support capitalism and raise chances significantly on capitalism not being defeated. Really, what's the big deal with letting minority do their weird fetishes in communism if they'll actually work? Rightwing can't ally with LGBT due to their ideology, leftwing should take advantage of this.

idpol distracts from class struggle


 No.2864393

>>2864386

>Idpol distracts from class struggle

This is one of the most retarded things anti-idpolers say. You can do more than one thing at once.

"Blank distracts from blank" could be used for literally anything. "Anti imperialism distracts from class struggle", "getting rid of segregation distracts from class struggle", "Breathing distracts from class struggle".

Its a retarded moot point, which can be used as an arguement against any political action.

I am fairly anti-idpol, but this is such a worthless arguement to use, it actively makes your position look retarded


 No.2864403

>>2856560

It is known that Fascism and the far right in general use sexuality and it is known through psychoanalysis

But having that of a reactionary view on sex, will lead you to more reactionary views, just look at /pol/, it is known that they are sex deprived and have a craze with black dicks. Read Reich and in the friendliest and most literal way possible

GET FUCKED


 No.2864404

>>2856565

>>2859088

>>2860531

>>2862531

>>2864242

>>2864243

Weird bed fellows you "gender critical" people share

Almost as if this whole gender critical shit is just social cons*rvatism and reactionary white


 No.2864406

>>2864404

Shite not white


 No.2864414

>>2864403

>reactionary view on sex

What is hat to you? Not liberal/feminist?


 No.2864420

>>2864278

>But even a lot of communists here support this shit

Why oppose an individual's self-expression?


 No.2864421

>>2864404

It's entirely straightforward; we assist the fascists in their rise to power, they abolish anti-women groups (trannies, homos, miscegenators, kikes) that make it impossible to dismantle the patriarchy, and then we will live in peace in our natural positions as women


 No.2864424

File: 4695f9ba96ca410⋯.gif (1.54 MB, 480x264, 20:11, 1507236833683.gif)


 No.2864441

>>2864414

No, literally keeping a healthy sex life is enough, the mgtow/crypto-incel idea that "lol I don't need sex" is fake and just a way to show face for people to think "oh my god you are sooo into what you're doing" when really they just see you as a loser in your late twenties. Also about making people psychotic because they don't have that intimacy to keep them grounded with the rest of the people, aka not alienating yourself from the everyday people you want to unite to fight capitalism


 No.2864451

>>2864441

> idea that "lol I don't need sex"

This is by definition not true for incels, else it would not be "involuntary".

>>2864441

>not alienating yourself

So it's the incel's fault?


 No.2864458

>>2864393

>This is one of the most retarded things anti-idpolers say. You can do more than one thing at once.

do you have ANY proof of this? because IDpol and revolution have never been done at the same time.

>"Blank distracts from blank" could be used for literally anything. "Anti imperialism distracts from class struggle", "getting rid of segregation distracts from class struggle", "Breathing distracts from class struggle".

this is just shitposting

>Its a retarded moot point, which can be used as an arguement against any political action.

calling things retarded is not an argument


 No.2864465

>>2864451

I never talked about incels, talked about crypto-incels that psychoanalytically speaking they have it in their mind, but will not become incels because of their ego, most of them if not all are MGTOWs, pay attention I didn't say MGTOW and crypto-incels, I implied they are the same fucking thing

The second part isn't even talking about incels, it's talking about this shit >>2856560


 No.2864479

File: 245f2fe98630e79⋯.jpeg (111.22 KB, 629x793, 629:793, 02D2FDDB-45C6-4AEC-82F0-8….jpeg)

>>2862598

>>2862610

A simple example of the strong contrasts between women’s right in East Germany and West Germany, where women’s participation in government and the workforce was much higher in the east than the west and in the west there was a law (until 1977) that prevented women’s employment without a husbands permission is enough to dispel your bizarre assertions.

I’d strongly suggest you familiarise yourself with Kristen Ghodsee’s recent book, ‘Why women have better sex under socialism: And other arguments for economic independence’. She also appeared on Rev-left radio.


 No.2864487

>>2864420

>Why oppose an individual's self-expression?

because certain types can be harmful


 No.2864490

>>2864487

spooked lol


 No.2864494


 No.2864504

File: c57cf6dddc2ad50⋯.jpg (29.55 KB, 267x377, 267:377, althussssssssssssssssssser.jpg)

>>2860391

WE ARE NOT HEGELIANS


 No.2864506

>>2864494

what would be a reasonable example of someone's self-expression going "too far"?


 No.2864516

>>2864506

when it has damaging effects on the individual or society


 No.2864519

File: 2288934c452ffa3⋯.jpeg (45.98 KB, 400x400, 1:1, 365DAE72-B16E-4E7E-BA2D-2….jpeg)

>>2864490

>advocating liberal fetishising of individuality

No, you’re the one who’s spooked.


 No.2864525

>>2864516

these terms "individual" and "society" are too abstract to mean anything in this conversation.

>>2864519

Actually, I oppose individualism - It is just funny when a moralfag shows up in the thread.


 No.2864530

>>2864525

>these terms "individual" and "society" are too abstract to mean anything in this conversation.

you can use a dictionary


 No.2864534

>>2864530

individual and society are subjective terms, I assume we're not working with literal definitions here.

Some think that society is simply a cluster of individuals, whilst others believe the individual is the product of his society, or both.


 No.2864541

>>2864534

>individual and society are subjective terms, I assume we're not working with literal definitions here.

what other definitions are you working with?

You're calling things you can't argue against "subjective"

>Some think that society is simply a cluster of individuals, whilst others believe the individual is the product of his society, or both.

that doesn't change anything


 No.2864553

>>2864541

society as it presents itself today is a mode of economic distribution based on the exploitation of the working class. i don't really care if someone wants to wear girly clothes. how about that?

you are a moralfag.


 No.2864574

>>2864553

>society as it presents itself today is a mode of economic distribution based on the exploitation of the working class

this doesn't even contest my point.

>i don't really care if someone wants to wear girly clothes. how about that?

well you're falling back on apathy for plausible deniability

however the sentiment you are giving is: it is wrong to suppress behavior that is harmful to the working class

YOU are the moral fag


 No.2864580

>>2864574

I'm being apathetic because it is of no concern to me. I support the idea of privacy - I don't think i should be monitoring people's actions around me constantly; being judgemental.

>harmful to the working class

in what regard?


 No.2864587

>>2864580

>in what regard?

Allowing actions that's negative effects outweigh the positive


 No.2864590

>>2864587

but you still haven't explained what exactly is negative?


 No.2864595

he argued with an autistic brony for 45 minutes about a tweet.

he has a big ego and just likes to flex his intellect.


 No.2864606

File: 4810dc3f1cb7331⋯.png (60.87 KB, 963x908, 963:908, 4810dc3f1cb7331e50b6e07bcf….png)

>>2864590

>but you still haven't explained what exactly is negative?

here


 No.2864612

>>2864606

okay.

so what should i do with this information?


 No.2864615


 No.2864620

>>2864615

it is not in my power to make it illegal for gay and bi people to adopt, and discrimination is against my principles, so you are useless to me right now, man.


 No.2864629

>>2864620

>it is not in my power to make it illegal for gay and bi people to adopt, and discrimination is against my principles, so you are useless to me right now, man.

then why are you even posting about it if that is your view


 No.2864650

>>2864606

lmao why guys with lesbian moms became the most gay?


 No.2864665

File: e78bf6c9f52fe3a⋯.jpg (31.39 KB, 600x400, 3:2, Ilchi-Lee_I-dont-care_2018….jpg)

>>2864606

>new family structures study

>mark regnerus

mark regnerus is a Christian sexual puritan. It's obvious that his bias produced these results. There is no such thing as objectivity with anyone so dogmatised, I don't care how many infographs you throw at me.

and it is clear that you are also some type of religious weirdo.


 No.2864750

>>2864665

<i don't care how much capitalists ruin society i must defend gays because I'm really a liberal

>Being this consumed in ideology

You're more dogmatic than Christians


 No.2864753

>>2864750

i am allowed to be concerned with the evils of the bourgeoisie, and also defend the gays.

creating this artificial conservative dichotomy is ridiculous.


 No.2864761

>>2864753

>defending people who harm the working class

JUST


 No.2864763

>>2864761

i know a few gay members of the working class, anon… gays aren't seperate from exploitation.


 No.2864775

>>2864761

>harm the working class

How? Even outside of the liberal status quo, there has always been skepticism of homosexuality as a disorder. This was a common view among psychologists in the early USSR, for example, but they ended up backtracking because Russian culture is extremely anti-gay and popular support eroded as a result.


 No.2864777

>>2864775

lenin decriminalized homosexuality. he clearly did not see much wrong with it.


 No.2864796

>>2864777

gorbachev initiated perestroika, he clearly did not see much wrong with it


 No.2864799

>>2864796

>government accountability is bad because liberals lie about it

holy tank batman


 No.2864806

>>2864763

Yeah and the police are proletariat you gonna defend them too?


 No.2864807

>>2864777

And Stalin corrected that


 No.2864810

>>2864775

it was back tracked because they wanted to protect their communities


 No.2864811

DSA


 No.2864814

>>2864806

>comparing homosexuality with class betrayal

are you smoking crack or are you just a troll?


 No.2864816

File: b8023b15e7b9f24⋯.jpg (77.64 KB, 1125x925, 45:37, wigcontra.jpg)

As a tranny I really hate how these conversations are usually filled with A: nazis, B: women who refuse to actually talk about this in good faith, or C: crazy SJWs who prove everyone's points.

Like actual radical feminism is interesting and its intersection with transgender stuff is something that should be dealt with a lot better and would benefit all.


 No.2864818

>>2864814

>are you smoking crack or are you just a troll?

Both are needless actions that harm proletariat society


 No.2864821

>>2864816

>as a tranny

coon


 No.2864824

File: 5936db396032069⋯.png (24.98 KB, 285x555, 19:37, shelarious.png)

>>2864821

Look, I am self deprecating, what's the issue.


 No.2864825

File: b1dcbefadb1c69d⋯.gif (321.68 KB, 262x340, 131:170, 1499162084_stalin.gif)

>>2864816

You don't get any special rights libbie

Ta ta to the gulag with you


 No.2864826

File: c2856b9cc50c716⋯.jpg (8.64 KB, 236x177, 4:3, 9c976a179d4365af8208e9728f….jpg)

i had a dream last night that i was dating natalie wynn but she was way younger and she was distant, and i felt bad because i could sense that she wanted to dump me. then i woke up and had sleep paralysis and thought i was going to die then i thought i was looking at the inside of my own eyeballs then i snapped out of it.


 No.2864828

>>2864824

nothing, if that's your thing. i think generally it's a bad example to lead by tho.


 No.2864832

File: 2e87af42b3db488⋯.jpg (41.14 KB, 500x282, 250:141, mtfirl.jpg)

>>2864825

well yeah, we'll send you to the… gender mines… and you will be forced to take opposite sex hormones?

god, how is anyone actually scared by us


 No.2864833

File: 5ec54c44ee44e12⋯.gif (178.36 KB, 220x239, 220:239, tenor.gif)

>>2864832

Nobody's scared of a couple of nerds who are confused by what bathroom to use

They're only getting tired of you being everywhere

And by "everywhere" I mean anywhere at all

But the gulag that is ;)


 No.2864834

File: 0a01333a2004504⋯.jpg (162.03 KB, 1024x1045, 1024:1045, 61482450.jpeg.jpg)

>>2864833

do you not see how the overexposure of transpeople in media hurts transpeople by creating reactionary conservative attitudes rather than allowing for their passive Integration into the proletarian identity?

you are being mind controlled by porky, comrade. stop watching tv.


 No.2864836

File: 5f85f374cf3df10⋯.jpg (290.2 KB, 1395x1536, 465:512, 5f85f374cf3df10b7c79438bc0….jpg)

>>2864834

Capitalism and human nature (before the advent of post-homo (sapiens) socialism) creates trans-illness

I don't watch TV television, unless you mean TradingView then yes

No more capitalism = no more sexual disorders because socialism will not let them spread and will cure them instead (with gulags mostly lol)


 No.2864839

>>2864836

how can you be a communist if you are so focused on social homogeneity?


 No.2864842

>>2864839

I literally don't even know what society is


 No.2864846

>>2856544

>You will see all the time people complaining about how LGBTQ+ people are indicative of some bourgeois decadence, or that we have "gone too far" with self-expression, it is all a plot to divide the proletariat and to pacify working class queers by denying the revolutionary potential of a minority in a world in which we're already alienated by capitalist exploitation.

There's no inherent revolutionary potential of a minority, as any sort of potential is always placated to some extent via co-option and identity pandering before it becomes dangerous to capitalism.

>90% of transgender people are revolutionary communists, yet lefties think they're all undercover liberals, because their aesthetic is peaceful or cutesy

The aesthetic does reflect a purchase into both the ideology of gender and its consumerist-fetishistic aspects, although I haven't seen very much focus on it outside of gender critical feminists.

It isn't very important regardless. In many cases, this identification as "revolutionary communists" is nothing more than a declaration that their identitarian interests are that of revolutionary communism, not a declaration of the latter simply as such. That's also why, despite the identification, the almost sole focus of each of these "revolutionary communists" happens to be transgender issues, as well as a steady stream of the usual left-liberal pablum about "oppression," rarely exploitation.


 No.2864848

>>2864846

i would argue that most transgender issues are class issues. To say that transpeople are distracted by idpol or whatever misses the point hat a lot of their "oppression" has economic themes.

We collectively just need more education of the class basis of our experience, beyond the basic stuff. This requires smashing individualism and so on and so on.


 No.2865012

The correct materialist analysis is that capitalism perpetuates bigotry against group of people who are otherwise inconsequential. Worse even, it creates fantasies where human features are reified into identities (and almost always commodified).

This reification causes people to become their identities and replace their ego (eg. Instead of people *having* sexual attractions to the same sex, they *become* gay). It is inevitable for people to start to *become* their identities, especially in our current age where everything is meaningless, everyone is copy of everyone, but everyone wants to feel like somebody. Just put on some identities and you instantly have a self-narrative of your life: you are/were a struggling person, who somehow keeps chugging along despite all the barriers that society imposes on you. Literally anyone can fit that narrative, even porkies. If you want to experience what it means to indulge the self in the fantasy of becoming an identity, navigate to any subreddit of a sci-fi franchise, or for shits and giggles, go over to /pol/ and observe the collective fantasy they have completely embodied.

Anyways, identity groups emerge naturally, especially with the immediacy of online communities. It is extremely easy now, especially for millennials and younger, to find people _just like them_. Sometimes it merely represents a support group, but other times, it becomes the primary source of socialization.

On/off-line communities, as we all know, take a life of their own, they form their own memes, jokes, traditions, customs, but also rules, signals to let others know that their part of the "in group" (le narhwals bacon, amirite), but also group dynamics apply and a social hierarchy forms, people then use the customs, rules and politics to purity check others and gain social capital. This social pressure to fit in homogenizes the group. It is important to note that no one individual steers the ideological boat, sometimes it's organic, sometimes corporations, sometimes vocal minorities, and the cohesiveness of the group also affects this.

Outside identity groups, it is inevitable for the identitarians to engage in a team sports battle, that seeks to gain privilege or validation for "their team". It stand to point out that sometimes identitarian struggle is reasonable, like minorities ganging up to protect themselves.

Since there's an Us and the Other, protagonism, victimhood, chauvinism, "oppression olympics" is an inevitable conclusion to this, which, in summary, is identity politics.

So, whenever people say that "cis-women have a right to organize" or other feminist bullshit they are pandering to the essentialization of the women identity. They are implicitly saying what it means to be a woman, and all the rules associated with it. The rules are simultaneously universal and subjective. It is obvious and universal that a man cannot be a feminist or speak about women issues, say some. Others say it is obvious and universal that all "woke" men should be feminist and speak up against discrimination. All people who are not 100% up to date with the retardation of the week feel like they're walking on eggshells, because the rules are never consistent, always in flux, but always universal and moralizing.

The correct materialist response is to reject feminism in it's entirety. There cannot be a unified, consistent identity of womanhood, even though capitalist ideology demands it. It is fiction that hurts the dissolution of the gender meme and paradoxically excludes cis-women. That does not mean that one should ignore women oppression, we must reconsider exactly what is the cause of the oppression that this group has, irrespective of whether it's gays or women. If you want to play the liberal game of ranking oppressions, materialist analysis will show that economics underlies the vast majority of the causes of the worst and most prominent types of oppression.

To conclude, a materialist should reject all these retardations and understand the root cause of said retardation (genderists, gender critics, terfs, feminists, and other identity politics), and also should look to the material basis and historical context, to understand what is the root cause that could "fix" the identified problems.


 No.2865047

>>2864379

LGBT holds together. you can't separate LGB and T. it's all or nothing.

>>2864606

OK, then we just have to prevent them from adopting, they still can be what whatever they want to be - solved

nobody posted another real example how they harm working class so communism could work without eliminating LGBT, we just have to get rid of stalinists


 No.2865069

>>2865047

>LGBT holds together. you can't separate LGB and T.

That's right. Lesbian-Gay-Bi-TERF.


 No.2865071

File: 89471149b82706d⋯.png (1.15 MB, 1020x1064, 255:266, 5394063.png)

>>2865047

Love to pretend these perverts are my comrades


 No.2865077

>>2865047

>nobody posted another real example how they harm working class

Look id-pol was very useful for example in anti-colonial national liberation struggles, because national-indentity and quite often race-identity, coincided with class.

However there are quite a number of socialist organizations that used to struggle for class and then took on id-pol struggles, and slowly they dropped class struggles and nothing but id-pol remained. The ISO for example had a bunch of irregular financial stuff, the old-guard class warriors got kicked out, the new id-polers took over and dissolved the organization. Trans activist have attacked marxists giving lectures on how wages developed in capitalism because they were stupid enough to be instrumentalised by in-group out-group rhetoric.

Look the intersectional project was specifically theorised to replace a unified class struggle, with loads of struggles against particular oppressions. I'm not saying this was malice, because at the time and place this was theorised (in 1950s America) it may have looked as if Keynesian-economics had solved the class issue. A few decades later black liberation leaders realised this was an error and they started to advocate that the black struggle is a struggle against capitalism first and racism second and started to reach out to the Aryan brotherhood (white-identity-tribalism) , and according to Chris hedges they got shot for it. Which may have contributed to the current state of affairs, where in the neo-liberal structure, identities function like commercial brands, it gets co-opted by struggles for privilege in cultural hierarchies, by the labour aristocracy and petty bourgeoisie. For the so called" progressive wing of Capitalists" there is an obvious numbers game where giving a minority privileges is cheaper than giving it to a majority.

> we just have to get rid of Stalinists

This is you attempting to engage in sectarian oppression (witch-hunting), you obviously are demonstrating reactionary anti-communist attitudes. You do not have to accept the theory what so called "Stalinists" propose but then you have to argue against them, if you however propose to just get rid of them you are effectively conceding to their arguments.

As for the trans question, it's basically this: no more post modern subjective stuff. The ones that choose castration either chemical variety (aka the permanent flaccid dick strength Hormone therapy) or the surgical variety (chopping off dick) get to claim the identity, that will put a break on liberal opportunism.

Another thing Israel has eroded the meaning of "anti-Semitism", by using it in smear campaigns against people who advocated for Palestinians not being killed Israeli military, annexing Palestinian land for settler colonial expansion. Something similar is happening to the word "transphobia" where women who complained about sexual harassment got shut up with transphobia smear campaigns.

—-

If you want my opinion on how to handle the entire id-pol stuff, it's simple, no more self-identification based arguments both the sex-identities as well as the sectarian ones. Basically if you tie an argument to your identity then i have to attack you personally if i disagree, that's not conducive to producing accurate theory. Also no more appeal to doctrine fallacies. Marx is not the holy ghost, Lenin is not Jesus, and Stalin/Trotsky is not Judas.

And we need to look at this strategically, identitarians are really good at taking over and wrecking organisation, maybe we should recognise this as a skill to be used against capitalist organisation. Maybe the "temporary embarrassed millionaires", really are an oppressed group where banks are oppressing them by causing "banking-account-dysphoria". I'm being facetious here, but obviously there is an avenue for using right wing id-pol to harass capitalists with wealth entitlements.


 No.2865081

>>2865077

>Look id-pol was very useful for example in anti-colonial national liberation struggles, because national-indentity and quite often race-identity, coincided with class.


 No.2865087

>>2865081

now read the rest of my post, don't just cherry pick one part.


 No.2865088

>>2865071

Ewww, period blood


 No.2865091

>>2865087

IDpol is not useful sorry


 No.2865097

the popularization of idpol and gender politics as a whole is a faggotry invented by the capitalists to brainwash the population and make them feel like shit for being white, straight and well-functioning beings, turning them to nontraditional ways of coping. i'm sure even Lenin would agree with me on this. as for trannies, they're just mentally ill individuals, and they're a very small minority, which means they don't deserve any attention, except in the form of a bullet to the head.

those people would never benefit us, either. they're obsessed with sex, the only thing they care about is their gender and would be just as inconsistent in a revolution/their beliefs as they are with keeping one partner.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1920/lenin/zetkin1.htm


 No.2865105

File: dd7fe4021c8863f⋯.gif (49.85 KB, 550x353, 550:353, mac-pc-ads.gif)

>>2865091

It no longer is, it's commercialised, sorry but "platform capitalism" ate id-pol


 No.2865106

>>2865105

IDpol was never useful


 No.2865109

>>2865097

>Dissoluteness in sexual life is bourgeois, is a phenomenon of decay. The proletariat is a rising class. It doesn’t need intoxication as a narcotic or a stimulus. Intoxication as little by sexual exaggeration as by alcohol. It must not and shall not forget, forget the shame, the filth, the savagery of capitalism.

Oh shit get em Ленин


 No.2865117

>>2865106

> I'm counting nationalism as idpol, and in some Latin American and African countries it did help economic leftism. In China poverty reduction programs are justified with national pride.

Obviously nationalism can also be co-opted by neo-liberal ethno-capitalism.

If you are willing to try my scheme of oppressed temporary millionaire, right wing id-pol might become really expensive.


 No.2865122

File: 6af11ef4bd98241⋯.png (218.95 KB, 889x394, 889:394, 041cb347a8b67a4eaaf5c7d638….png)

>>2865117

I wouldn't always count nationalism as IDpol.

For example, Nationalism played a key role in nearly all communist revolutions however the goal was always global communist revolution.

However yes it can be co-opted by neo-liberal ethno-capitalism and turned into an identity by the right.

But class can be co opted and turn into an identity as well. Most notably the Punk scene and college hipsters in the west has strong working class fetishism


 No.2865130

>>2865047

>you can't separate LGB and T. it's all or nothing.

And why not? LGB denote sexual attraction. This is real. This is who you want to fuck. If you see a guy who doesn't want to fuck girls and wants to fuck guys, they're gay. If you see someone who wants to fuck girls and guys, they're bi. Pretty simple.

The T though? What does that represent? Your "gender?" Gender isn't "real" in the same sense that sexuality is. Gender, unlike sex and thus sexuality, is a restrictive social construct. Sexuality challenges gender norms. A lesbian works opposite traditional notions of feminity and a "woman's role." Trans people seem to embrace the gender roles they claim to be against. They embrace sexual stereotypes. Gender isn't just a personality.

The focus on trans people in recent years is antithetical to the emancipation of lesbian, gay, and bi people.


 No.2865133

>>2865130

Not the guy you're replying to but:

>The focus on trans people in recent years is antithetical to the emancipation of lesbian, gay, and bi people.

Lesbians gays and bi in the modern form are a result of capitalist alienation with the abolition of capitalism and mass healthcare sexual deviancy will be a thing of the past like polio or the plague


 No.2865151

>>2862458

Well who do you think will have the tech, in order to give it to everyone? The new just republic of Socialism, because I'm not seeing that, I'm seeing capitalists owning the tech, not everyone owning it, let alone with the same quality.

Before owning an idea you should think how those in the top can use it against the working class, that goes for every idea


 No.2865178

>>2865130

>Trans people seem to embrace the gender roles they claim to be against.

Yeah, it makes life earlier. There are trans people who don’t do that, but society maligns them for it.

Dysphoria is more than wanting to wear a dress and people thinking it looks weird. There’s a visceral disgust from the body - not even the sexual, but hands, shoulders, and bones - that spurs us to change it.

The reason trans people seem to embrace gender roles is if we don’t, the (typically reactionary) people around us will spit in our faces even more that, because we don’t conform, we’re not “really” the “gender” we profess. Yes, cis people experience the same thing, but trans people moreso, at least in my life. That’s also why people who “pass” care less about fitting into gender stereotypes than people who don’t.

Then again, I can’t speak for everyone, and my blog posting probably isn’t adding much.

In due time trans people will be able to take HRT and change their sex without gender being any of their concern, but for now, these are the cards we’re dealt.


 No.2865204

>>2865077

Stalin is responsible for bad reputation. most people in western countries see communism as dystopian and dangerous ideology. if we'll support stalin, they won't see difference between us and nazis supporting hitler. we need to convince them communism is about something different than what stalin was doing

>>2865130

>why not?

these minorities are united so they could be stronger. LGB aren't stupid, if you say trannies have no place in communism, but homo/bi is OK, they won't support you, risking that later it won't be OK anymore

if communism ever has to happen, we need every possible hand to help, otherwise it will always just stay on the imageboards


 No.2865206

File: 168e0ba860f9701⋯.jpg (12.2 KB, 256x256, 1:1, 5sdtsIrdJOpj.jpg)

Hey are there actually any feminists here at all I can chat with? Or all you just dude who don't like tranns.


 No.2865210

>>2865206

You sound like a thirsty transbian


 No.2865211

>>2865122

>I wouldn't always count nationalism as IDpol.

Well nationalities only exist as identity, the material reality are state-bureaucracies etc.

>For example, Nationalism played a key role in nearly all communist revolutions however the goal was always global communist revolution

Ok i agree with that but , i don't quite understand what you intent to convey with this, maybe that states and nationality are dialectically related.

> But class can be co opted and turn into an identity as well. Most notably the Punk scene and college hipsters in the west has strong working class fetishism

i consider punk and hipster as pure aesthetic movement, and they only have co-opted aesthetic elements of class, and even that in a very abstract and derivative way.


 No.2865214

>>2865206

dumb trannie


 No.2865222

My take on it >>2863479


 No.2865226

>>2865178

Dysphoria definitely exists, and if physically transitioning helps, I'm definitely for it. But that doesn't "change your gender."

Plus, if you suggest that dysphoria is necessary to be trans, you're overwhelmingly met with screams of "truscum" or whatever.


 No.2865236

File: 232c8f97974fc30⋯.png (105.69 KB, 332x398, 166:199, whatwomenreallywant.png)

>>2865210

of course I am, what of it?


 No.2865239

>>2864833

>>2864825

The tank flag is shown once again to be the flag /Pol/ converts use cus they think it looks cool and that's about the extent of their political views

Actual MLs usually use hammer and sickle, red flag, or sometimes DPRK or China flags

Also fucking cringe lmao


 No.2865241

>>2865239

>Not real socialism unless they use my flags

Yikes and cringe-pilled


 No.2865247

>>2864458

Idpol and revolution have never been done at the same time? Are you serious? Do women's and minority rights the the Russian Revolution not count? Most socialist revolutions historicaly are followed by an extension of women's rights. Inb4 >that wasn't idpol, idpol is just whatever i don't like

I wasn't shitposting, I was pointing out that "distracting from blank" could be used as an arguement against any and all actions. You seemed to just ignore my example so I'm guessing you don't have a rebuttle to that.


 No.2865250

>>2865241

I'm not saying it has to be any certain flag, I'm just saying it's well known that the tank flag is often used by /Pol/ converts, which was pretty obvious in that example.

Maybe your knew but this is pretty well known, same way the anarcha-feminist flag is often used by /Pol/ shitposters, it's fairly common


 No.2865253

>>2864310

>capitalist oppression is not won by segmenting society due to retarded, anti-materialist spooks.

This is a perfect description of "trans rights" activism. The insistence that a man who amputates his penis and takes a few tablets becomes a woman is the very definition of an "anti materialist spook".


 No.2865254

>>2865236

Dear god that looks delicious, and I'm not talking about the one at the top.

Though for all sake of purpose, can we have a source on that?


 No.2865258

>Hey /leftypol/ let's talk about international politics: >>>2845332

<33 replies and it's mostly by the same few people

>Hey /leftypol/, let's talk about homos and queers and shit!

>376 replies


 No.2865270

>>2865204

>Stalin is responsible for bad reputation.

Stalin was seen as Hero that helped defeat Fascism during his life. He was demonized after because of the cold war. Stalin is still seen as Hero outside the first-world bubble. As far as Stalin's record goes, it's not really analysed. Conceptually you can compare gulags with American private prisons, the war on drugs inmates can be reasonably seen as political motivated imprisonments. If you compare the relation between conditions of imprisonment as function of the wealth of the country, the private prison system is worse than the gulags. Ideologically Stalin considered the imprisoned as redeemable, while in America the prisons are seen as containment measure of an unredeemable criminal essence. Another factor that pulls into question the assertion that Stalin's actions caused the bad reputation is the Bengal famine that Churchill definitely caused is completely ignored while the Hollodomor famine that Stalin might have caused is focused on. The US rulers never really cared about communism ideologically very much they mainly saw the USSR as rival power. They demonized even the very democratic socialists leaders as ruthless bloodthirsty dictators. The capitalists that do object to Stalin based on ideology is market economy vs command economy. I don't think many people really care about the brutality, because off all the despots that are supported.

My point here is that the reputation is not necessarily caused by actions. And you kinda have to compare the effects on society, and Stalin era has seen drastically increasing life expectancy, as well as economic success with rising living standards.

>most people in western countries see communism as dystopian and dangerous

we live in a dystopia

>they won't see difference between us and nazis supporting hitler. we need to convince them communism is about something different than what stalin was doing

Is it not obvious The Nazis turned Europe into rubble, while the communists build a high tech industrial power, liberal horseshoe theory is easy to dismantle.


 No.2865289

>>2865258

most of the boards current users seem to use twitter or reddit or whatever for "actual discussion" and /leftypol/ to talk about how much they hate fags and women


 No.2865340

>>2865270

>Stalin is still seen as Hero outside the first-world bubble

i live in post-commie country, stalin is definitely not seen as a hero here

>the very democratic socialists

oh please, you had few candidates from few "different" approved parties. if you didn't go to elections, you had a problem.

>high tech industrial power

it is interesting Russians are using US-invented internet and many other their technologies then

maybe you should explain why USSR made iron curtain and western countries made no such thing. and no, don't mention USA agents, spying etc.

really, stalinist approach isn't way to go, people don't want those times back.


 No.2865352

>>2865289

>most of the boards current users seem to use twitter or reddit or whatever for "actual discussion" and /leftypol/ to talk about how much they hate fags and women

Or hate morons like you.


 No.2865355

>>2865352

go back there


 No.2865374

>>2865289

That's literally all anonymous discussion is good for. It's not actually good for discussing serious topics. It's just good for discussing taboo topics that would piss off people who you know.


 No.2865378

>>2865374

get a second account and leave us alone retard


 No.2865396

>>2865340

>i live in post-commie country, stalin is definitely not seen as a hero here

polls from Russia show a mostly positive view.

>oh please, you had few candidates from few "different" approved parties. if you didn't go to elections, you had a problem.

What about Chávez, Sankara and Allende

>it is interesting Russians are using US-invented internet and many other their technologies then maybe you should explain why USSR made iron curtain and western countries made no such thing. and no, don't mention USA agents, spying etc.

The internet is internationally developed and most of the early tech development came from state direct research and development, which is more like the Soviet command economy, the great American internet capitalists have not build the technology, they just use it. Ironically Darpa the state organisation that was instrumental to building the internet, was founded as a reaction the Sputnik, where America realised that the Soviets were technologically ahead of America. Also Russia was harmed really badly economically after collapse of the Soviet union, when the liberal markets opened in the 90s a lot of Russian industry was sold off and the population was harmed a lot about 12 million people died prematurely.

Western countries can pay more for professionals, because they violently plundered the third world, the Soviets violently sealed the boarder to prevent professional brain drain towards the western centres because they did not have plundered wealth to pay. Somehow what the western brutality does not count ?

But in general Border-walls-fences are the result of regional differences in wealth, right now the European union is building a giant Frontex fence to the east, and the Americans are building a wall to close off the border to Mexico, and they have been doing this long before Trump. Walls are tools to separate differences in wealth.

To be honest the Iron Curtain could have been prevented by making free education conditional to working in for the Soviet union and requiring professionals to pay back their education if they wanted to work in the west for more pay.

> people don't want those Stalin times back.

Yeah i know Russian want back goulash communism, not capitalism.

>>2865289

>most of the boards current users seem to use twitter or reddit or whatever for "actual discussion" and /leftypol/ to talk about how much they hate fags and women

Ok you have a point , high quality effort posting is low. But the fight for Social justice is turning into a fight for cultural power to be the one that can discriminate. Sorry but I signed up for fight against discrimination.


 No.2865420

>>2865012

not even one (You)…

thanks.

>>2865253

The ability to change your sex by surgery and pills is most definitely a spook.

But most trans people just want to be regarded as a different gender in their day to day lives.

Nuance is hard, but should be applied when possible. "Activists" (feminists, trans-rights, gay rights, etc) are generally anti-materialist and generally disregarded, but that doesn't mean they are wrong on _everything_ they say, their goals, and (although rarely) their methods to achieve their goals.

I claim I am anti-feminist for this exact reason, it's not that I'm against women or women rights, it's that I'm against anti-materialist praxis.

>>2865226

>transitioning doesn't "change your gender."

explain what you mean. Gender is a historically contingent group of roles, behavior, appearances, and social signals. With that definition, if someone acts primarily as the "male" gender or the "female" gender, I don't see how they don't embody that gender and hence, are that gender. I also find it very reasonable to say that gender is fairly ambiguous and a substantial amount of people are """non-conforming""" to their perceived gender in some aspect.

As a wild speculation, perhaps more males than females transition because society has a stricter male gender ideal, where there is less room for gender ambiguity than the female gender (as I perceive it, at least). Since males are allowed less to experiment with their gender expression (for risk of being called sissy, fag, dandy, much more in my native tongue), then gender dysphoria emerges? I identify problems with this suggestion, but food for thought.

>>2865133

>>2865130

>>2865109

>>2865097

we should ban transphobia. invariably the worst posters.

>inb4 muh idpol

reactionary socialists are spooked, unread socialists


 No.2865428

>>2865396

>polls from Russia show a mostly positive view

Russia had good times, because they drained resources from european countries just like USA drains resources from third world countries. Our country sold it's uranium reserves for ridiculous price, we're never gonna see it again or any compensation.

>Also Russia was harmed really badly economically after collapse of the Soviet union

That supports the fact Russia was dependent on other countries resources and industry, not being able to feed on it's own. Once they lost control of europe, their economy went right downhill.

>Russian want back goulash communism

Russians mainly want their empire back. They don't care about communism that much, they just want to rule the world, it's in their nature. Capture of Crimea was quite expensive, but Putin had to do it to keep people on his side.


 No.2865465

>>2865428

> Russia had good times, because they drained resources from European countries just like USA drains resources from third world countries.

No the Soviet subsidised it's Satellite states, they gave more then they took, at least on average.

>Our country sold it's uranium reserves for ridiculous price

So you are from the Ukraine ?, well since the Orange revolution the Ukraine is a new vassal state of the US, is it better now or was it better under Soviet system ?

>That supports the fact Russia was dependent on other countries resources and industry, not being able to feed on it's own. Once they lost control of europe, their economy went right downhill.

No their economy collapsed because the neo-liberal free market coup abolished the central planer with out putting anything else in place, they lie and promised market would spontaneously organize the giant soviet economy . While in reality once the market was onpen a bunch of foreign investors plundered large parts of the economy, as well as the formation of the Russian fossil fuel oligarchs that formed.

>Russians mainly want their empire back.

Well sure part of it is chauvinism.

>they just want to rule the world, it's in their nature.

That's Racism.

>Capture of Crimea was quite expensive, but Putin had to do it to keep people on his side.

To me it looked like geo-strategy, besides i'm not going to yell at Putin, because the neo-liberals created Putin by collapsing the Soviet System.


 No.2865469

>>2865420

We could argue about definitions of "gender" and "sex" are appropriate here, as I certainly disagree with your assertions. It's entirely superfluous, though. The entire discourse over the "trans" topic has been shaped by spooked liars who want to claim that physiology is a social construct, remove hard won safeguards against abuse of the individual in areas such as medical practice or law and generally enables many deeply unpleasant people to inflict themselves on others to the detriment of all.

Let me repeat that for you: We are not discussing people who transition quietly and then get on with their lives as an average member of the community. That is not what almost everyone talking about "trans rights", whether for or against, cares about,

It is correct that the Radical Feminists are Idpollers. That being said; their idpol has materialist roots, most of them are interested in altering the socioeconomic fabric of society in a manner that we would approve of and aside from the odd deranged bollock chopper in their ranks, the radical feminists aren't interested in harming anyone. All of which are a large improvement on the Queer Theory group, who need to be removed.


 No.2865508

>>2856669

>>2857477

agree with both

>>2865469

Why do you disagree with my definition of sex and gender? With what assertions do you disagree with and why? Do you think calling trans-men "real men" is wrong/unjustified/whatever? If so, what about calling cis-males "real men"?

>trans topics have been shaped by spooked liars

So like tumblr SJWs and shit? Isn't it the same style of thought as "kill whitey" and "you're a white mail!" sorts?

>We are not discussing people who transition quietly

What are we discussing then? It's hard to tell from all the reactionary garbage in the thread.

Who is spearheading the debate? What are the rights being fought for? Besides SJW cancer, all I hear about is spectacular shit like banning people from using opposite sex bathroom. I've never heard of labor rights in the context of trans people, for example.

Is it about people transitioning before they're 18?

>Rad fems

Idk about rad fems, in my experience it's been all about being anti-trans and anti-men. In general, toxic and idpol. Granted, I've been around few and might not represent the whole. (Searching for gender critical led me to a subreddit that is nothing short of cancer.)

Emma Goldman's essays are great though, not sure if she counts.


 No.2865530

>>2865508

>Why do you disagree with my definition of sex and gender?

They are queer theory nonsense. Gender is a system of behavioral stereotypes based on sex. Transpersons wish to be seen as a different sex, not gender. You're spouting hipster bollocks.

>Searching for gender critical led me to a subreddit that is nothing short of cancer

Which sort of indicates to me that you're the sort of person I want nothing to do with and discussion is pointless. Ta-ta!


 No.2865557

>>2865530

>Transpersons wish to be seen as a different sex, not gender.

They wish to be seen as a different sex, but have no illusions of eventually becoming that sex, so they are fine with being regarded as that gender.

>Gender is a system of behavioral stereotypes based on sex.

I don't believe you're doing so, but if you're denying that these stereotypes are historically contingent, you're wrong. If you're saying there's a strong correlation between gender and sex, nobody is saying otherwise. If you're saying that gender emerges exclusively from sex, then you're plainly wrong. Your definition was rather short so I don't understand the difference between what I said and what you believe.

>Ta-ta!

cringe. Look friend, I want to understand what you think. This liberal "smarter than you" attitude is really off putting.

A good portion of the posts on the front page of the subreddit where about anti-trans shit or anti-male shit, from a quick skim I'd say that more than half.

Here's a collection of intellectual poverty found on that shit subreddit:

>I wanted to know if there is a sub for female seperatism? A sub dedicated to women who want to seperate themselfs as much as possible from men in society to escape misogyny and build their lives alone/with another woman/in a female dominated space?

<https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/bdza1p/is_there_a_sub_for_female_seperatists/

All comments are approving.

Thread laughing at the increasing trend of sadder men. Kill all mails, amirite.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/be0gdt/poor_sad_men_are_rotting_from_the_inside_out/

>Playing the world's smallest violin while crying a single tear about the hardships [men] suffer

Absolutely disgusting.

>If we have any lawyers here, I want to talk about possible prenup drafts including what happens on the event of porn use. If porn found on electronic devices… all assets acquired jointly during the marriage are transferred to me as well as the details of how much proof is enough.

>on the event of porn use

>all assets acquired jointly during the marriage are transferred to me

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/bdx9td/do_we_have_any_lawyers_prenups_and_porn/

>Nine reasons to forgo relationships with men

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/bdo6ma/nine_reasons_to_forgo_relationships_with_men/

anyone else volcel gang?

this random comment made me laugh though

>It really amazes me how "terfs" are considered hateful

0 self reflection

bathroom *draaamaaa*

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/bdgtp6/tif_takes_selfie_in_boys_room_girl_expelled_for/

>The leftist bro support for Julian Assange is pissing me off to the point of rage. How many more women will be ignored in favour of a an abusive male public figure?

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/bds3rr/the_leftist_bro_support_for_julian_assange_is/

critical support for destabilizing a world power < death penalty for dubious claims about a slipped condom (which is just as violent and PTSD inducing as actual rape, of course)

fucking self-respecting leftists, they're seriously just as bad as serial rapists.

If you support this shit, why do you even come here?


 No.2865568

>>2865557

I'm not your friend and I'm not going to talk to you.


 No.2865574

>>2865568

literal child.

I'll reframe the question: If you don't want to discuss, why do you even come here? Are you afraid of being proven wrong because your identity is centered around your beliefs and identity group?


 No.2865587

>>2865047

>LGBT holds together. you can't separate LGB and T. it's all or nothing.

you can

t bi guy

>>2865178

>There’s a visceral disgust from the body - not even the sexual, but hands, shoulders, and bones - that spurs us to change it.

Sounds like something that should be dealt with via therapy, not by surgery.


 No.2865593

>>2865587

>Sounds like something that should be dealt with via therapy, not by surgery.

Are you saying that frontal lobotomy would be an inappropriate solution?


 No.2865597

File: a3c79d722e0720d⋯.jpeg (467.52 KB, 828x864, 23:24, 30E32194-7CC0-49AE-9222-9….jpeg)

>>2865587

Pic related

>>2865469

>We are not discussing people who transition quietly and then get on with their lives as an average member of the community. That is not what almost everyone talking about "trans rights", whether for or against, cares about,

>That is not what almost everyone talking about "trans rights", whether for or against, cares about,

There are a surprisingly large number of people who do care about more important struggles like a religious doctor not being allowed to deny you treatment (not just for trans-specific problems but for anything), an employer not being allowed to fire you because “trannies are gross,” and not being able to change your gender legally to begin with. Those people are the “normal” trans people you’re talking about. Almost everyone talking about “trans rights” whines endlessly about bathroom shit and how debauched they think we are, reactionaries and liberals alike. The trans rights discussion has been crafted by cis people who either despise us or don’t give a toss about anything that doesn’t effect them.


 No.2865623

>>2865597

>There are a surprisingly large number of people who do care about more important struggles like a religious doctor not being allowed to deny you treatment (not just for trans-specific problems but for anything)

This isn't a problem and is indicative of the utter dishonesty surrounding "trans rights" advocacy. Whenever you request examples of medical professionals declining to treat transpersons, it's never that a doctor told and injured or diseased transperson to leave their practice and go die in the gutter. It is inevitably something along the lines of "REEEEE, DR MUHAMMAD WOULD NOT GIVE ME OVER 9000 HORMONE PILLS ON REQUEST". Guess what? Doctors have an ethical obligation to ONLY PROVIDE HELPFUL TREATMENT and not just hand out whatever the patient demands. If a doctor thinks that doling out hormones and surgery is harmful, they are doing the right thing by telling the patient no. So the "trans rights" advocacy is actively undermining hard won protections against medical malpractice by demanding "affirming treatment" where the medical profession force the patient to sign extensive waivers that surrender their rights to redress if the doctors fuck up.

So fuck off with your bullshit. "Trans rights" is a harm upon society.


 No.2865642

>>2865623

>inevitably

You made it too easy

https://medium.com/transequalitynow/anti-trans-health-care-discrimination-already-happens-here-daniels-story-ffb3c4c48950

And even if that was the case, that wouldn’t make trans people a blight.


 No.2865644

>>2865420

Gender, as a concept, is repressive and needs to be abolished. Gender is not something you choose, it is something forced upon you. If one identifies as a woman due to relating to the position in society that women are relegated to, in many instances violently, one is supporting the very system that leads to the oppression of women.

Sex is the only thing "real," and acting as if you can simply identify into a gender because you relate to the sex stereotypes is incredibly reactionary. "Femininity" or "masculinity" is not something to aspire to.


 No.2865645

>>2865642

>You're wrong! Read this blog post which actually makes your point for you!

Okay.


 No.2865683

>gender crit thread

>no freud cigars to be seen

Sad!


 No.2865700

>>2865465

>they gave more than they took

be more accurate, what did they give? because in the shops only what we made was available

>So you are from the Ukraine?

Lol no, Russia drained uranium from more countries, but life conditions here are better than under Soviet system. That system didn't work at all and if you want it back, it won't happen or won't last for long, giving capitalism even stronger grip and banning all communist movements for good.

>That's Racism

Do you really believe Russians aren't racists? Russians always saw other nations as inferior, equality didn't exist when it came to nations. tbh I feel something similar from Americans too, but at least they're not that aggresive. Sure there are exceptions, but most of them are like that, otherwise they wouldn't tolerate Putin.


 No.2865718

>>2865683

Well what's there to talk about, Freud believed that we all as a species are bisexual, but at the same time that the only reason people go for the same gender is because of the inverted Oedipus complex where boys feel affection for their father and girls for their mother instead of the opposite.


 No.2865765

>>2865683

That's actually really weird. Where the hell are they?


 No.2865822

>>2865700

>be more accurate, what did they give? because in the shops only what we made was available

I' don't know where you live, so it's hard to say, but on average the Soviets subsidised it's periphery, mostly with industrial development and infrastructure, to be fair rather than fancy goods in shops.

>That system didn't work at all and if you want it back, it won't happen or won't last for long, giving capitalism even stronger grip and banning all communist movements for good.

Well lets be fair here it did work for about 70 years, that means it lasted longer than most alternative industrial systems. And for most people it was a huge improvement over what came before. Also consider that if you wish to compare the Soviet union you have to compare it to a State with similar starting conditions, and here Brazil is a more apt comparison. Also you are wrong, capitalism is on the way out, that doesn't mean the future will be communism, it can also mean a collapse into fiefdoms, or less likely corporatism. The reason for this is simple capitalism needs expansion and there is nowhere to expand into. Admittedly the Soviet system lacked democracy and efficiency, but do you really believe there is more democracy now or efficiency for that matter, in the former regions of the former Soviet union. ?

>Do you really believe Russians aren't racists?…

Let me stop you right here you said Russians had "empire-nature" and yes that is a racist statement. Also it a ridiculously inaccurate stereotype because Russia has had a mainly defensive posture most of the time. Anyway this is pointless, because even for the US with it's extremely aggressive imperial way, its just a result of having a favourable geography for naval power, not some nature of Americans. Anyway you aren't getting around the fact that Russians want back the Soviet system just by insulting them with what sounds like western propaganda of "evil Russian hordes waiting at the door"


 No.2865826

File: 10366b0a9e7a7fa⋯.jpeg (45.99 KB, 506x652, 253:326, cig.jpeg)


 No.2865904

>>2865644

>If one identifies as a woman due to relating to the position in society that women are relegated to, in many instances violently, one is supporting the very system that leads to the oppression of women.

by that logic, trans men are revolutionary and transwomen are reactionary. transwomen are seriously a minute group of people and are not transitioning to support patriarchy. If anything, by asserting that a "man" can be a "woman", you are removing the boundaries between what is man and woman and hence destroying the system of oppression against women. In other words, in radfem language, men can't be oppressive against other men as easily, and since men are now women, well, problem fixed. I'm not being super serious, but honestly the claim your making is hard to take seriously as well.

>Sex is the only thing "real," and acting as if you can simply identify into a gender because you relate to the sex stereotypes is incredibly reactionary

>gender is stereotypes.

>you can't relate to a gender if you act the stereotypes.

choose one.

I seriously don't understand how hard it can be to understand that trans people want to be perceived as the opposite sex. They do that by acting the stereotypes. Why not just accept that for all intents and purposes, they are mostly that gender, except for all the things that the typical sex of that gender entails (which contributes to the stereotypes, but as you concede, is not part of the stereotype). For some reason both of us cannot understand, trans people are compelled to want to be perceived or portray themselves, even when that implies massive amounts of societal disapproval, as the opposite sex, and to do that, they perform the "sex stereotypes". Why condemn a trans person of using a dress but not a normal lady on the street?

I know radfems are identitarians and resist changing their views that might oust them from their coventants, but I implore you to reconsider.


 No.2865981

File: 85ed5beeb1a3ebc⋯.jpg (101.5 KB, 750x838, 375:419, 1_fMJagL7iFIv0QddZ87KMaQ.j….jpg)

as far as i know, the material economy of gender has reached it's climax with the fact that all sexes are treated equally as shittily by the bourgeoisie as one another. In the day, there were legal modes of control, but today in "egalitarian" times we all share the common class struggle, so gender in it's materialist context is reduced to an individualistic capacity in accumulating capital. Today, workspaces include people of all types.

gender is experienced today as aesthetic and identity - however one expresses their subjectivity hardly seems important. Can any terfs give me a reason why opposing transpeople is a feminist obligation?

(please excuse the autism of pic related)


 No.2865998

>>2865981

gender criticialist in this thread have proven to be arguing in bad faith numerous times.

as far as I can tell, they are ideologue identitarians that claim to be materialist, but can't see beyond the confines of the fantasies they create in their shitty subreddits.

they maintain a cognitive dissonance between their essentialist conception of womanhood and the desire to abolish gender. many are upfront unapologetic misandrists, which is anti-communist and has no place in this board (except if posting under porky flag, or some other reactionary flag)

there are nazis and ex-/pol/ converts that are anti-trans as well, but at least they are upfront about their beliefs and say trans are a degenerates.


 No.2866000

>>2865981

when you strip away all of their idealism and bullshit "theory" you'll find that terfs are the actual feminazis that literally believe all men are rapists, and so therefore if you allow trans people into women's spaces they will rape everyone. they don't think gender is just an aesthetic difference, despite supposedly being gender critical. they believe in a biological essentialist interpretation of human behavior.


 No.2866002

>>2865998

the real idea of fun is a highly idealistic one, if not entirely based on mythological prescriptivism. Man's "fall from grace" is in his sin and whatnot. highly cultural relative and so on and so on. I denounce it on a materialist basis.


 No.2866004

>>2866000

(trips confotme)

yes, i have noticed that terfs HATE transwomen but are nonchalant to transmen, since they inherintly see transwomen as perverted men or whatever. It is political misandry.


 No.2866052

>>2865258

i was the one who derailed the cockshott thread and i havent posted in this thread once. i gave up in that cockshott thread, and i even recommended you guys have this containment thread made. its been, what? thirteen days since then…? why, you might ask does the tranny who started this shit not reply to the tranny thread?

oh idk maybe its because you guys can talk amongst yourselves without any help. its not the "homos and queers and shit" who have a problem with themselves, its all of you who have problems and discomfort with yourselves. thats why the conversation about trans shitters is not about trans shitters, its about you are your biases, neuroses, and passions. trans are just some lens for the masses to reflect on, simultaneously a giant threat for having in-your-face, non-conformist mutilated bodies and yet pathetic, worthless- weak and easily dispatched- at the same time.

>>2865644

what are trannies supposed to relate gender to? the gender of road-kill? attack helicopters? colors? what about aspiring to be treated like a human being?


 No.2866091

>>2866052

>what about aspiring to be treated like a human being?

Humans don’t mutilate themselves.


 No.2866103

>>2866091

what a stupid comment.


 No.2866104

>>2866091

>Humans don’t mutilate themselves.

embarrassingly uninformed.


 No.2866120

File: c3dab62a1c22956⋯.jpg (38.63 KB, 322x462, 23:33, cutepee.jpg)

>>2866091

I'm just on hormones yo, what was done to my dick at birth was far more invasive than all the girl pills are voluntarily take as an adult.


 No.2866125

>>2865718

He also believed it was completely harmless and nearly impossible to treat. Very much ahead of his time on that.


 No.2866151

>>2866125

well much of today's ideology is legalistic. freud may have called homosexuality a "disorder" or whatnot but it did not imply any means to stigmatise the condition, but to simply understand it in this psychological context. When the state manages morality, we're in trouble - this is why political correctness is a danger today, because of it's legal implications rather than it's discursive features.


 No.2866177

File: eaf665bc5642c6b⋯.jpeg (74.82 KB, 850x478, 425:239, 4E16945E-7DB5-4F04-820A-F….jpeg)

>>2856544

Tranny here

Once the revolution starts all that matters is you're willing to share bullets and cigarettes with me.

And it's true, so much of the trans internet community is pretty revolutionary, and I don't see why people would rather debase Trans people instead of helping them organize. We're a small number overall but pretty dedicated, our lives under current hierarchy are pretty shit, so probably 80% of us are down to die for a better future. It's either that or continue to suffer at the bottom.

If you can get past the cutesy outer shell and shit about gender, it's a pretty good place to tap for boots, or to help spread the message of socialism. Liberals pay us special consideration too, consider us a way into normal fag spaces.


 No.2866182

>>2866177

Once we get real helthcare the trans illness can be cured


 No.2866186

File: 69cfe716937ebdb⋯.png (162.31 KB, 282x555, 94:185, Screen Shot 2019-04-17 at ….png)

>>2866177

>And it's true, so much of the trans internet community is pretty revolutionary

If ancaps are considered “revolutionary” I guess your right.


 No.2866194

>>2866186

so dumb


 No.2866199

File: 1c4cfdfe6e90026⋯.jpg (25.08 KB, 720x454, 360:227, FB_IMG_1555350154517.jpg)

Thanks to liberal shitmounds like tumblr the trans community isnt taken seriously

Line tumblr trash to the wall for their well deserved bullets n then the trans community can heal their social stigma

Im a cuntboy btw


 No.2866202

File: 200743f22c16ae5⋯.jpg (11.51 KB, 326x294, 163:147, FB_IMG_1555537012126.jpg)

>>2866091

>normal humans dun mutilate themselves cuz muh media overlords said so

>is probs circumsized


 No.2866207

>>2866199

what's a cuntboy?


 No.2866210

>>2866199

This if the problem with ftm. Normal guys go through puberty and teasterome hormones when we’re teens and apolitical. But ftms do it when their political and this turns you into fascists. Same with mtfs and estrogen making them into impotent libs.

>>2866202

CNN, MSNBC, ABS, CBS, are all pro-trans.


 No.2866212

>>2866210

>ftms are fascists

give me one example


 No.2866213

>>2866207

Transmale


 No.2866222

>>2866210

>pplz who i dun agree wiff are fashist!!1

Thats a cute opinion

Doesnt mean that cuntboys dont exist though.


 No.2866227

>>2856661

You are homosexual.

>>2857304

You are homosexual and into self-mutilation because of self-loathing.

>>2864816

>Like actual radical feminism is interesting and its intersection with transgender stuff is something that should be dealt with a lot better and would benefit all.

Men who dress up as women and vice versa are still their respective sex. So yes, one should expect that radical feminism has said some things about men and women.

>>2864826

You are homosexual.

>>2864848

>i would argue that most transgender issues are class issues.

You are wrong.

>>2865206

You are a man who wishes he were a homosexual woman based on the deep emotional connection you felt when watching porno.

>>2865254

You are homosexual.

>>2865998

You are a transvestite who probably enjoys peeping on unsuspecting women.


 No.2866231

>>2866227

i may be a homosexual who is in to mutilation because of self-loathing, but is that so bad?


 No.2866233

>>2866231

"Mutilated" or not a body's a body, a workers a worker, the most dipshit move possible would turn down those who are sympathetic to your cause because you think they're icky.

Take what we can get, fuck.


 No.2866235

>>2866233

i understand.


 No.2866244

>>2866210

>pseudo-scientific bullshit about hormones making people get into political ideologies

how about taking your meds, schizo.

>>2866227

>ur gay

>ur wrong

arguing like a child.

retards, children, and idealist redditors who do nothing but shitpost should be banned.

>>2866231

fam, get help on the self-loathing. other than that, do whatever the fuck you want. negative thought patterns can be addictive. if you're overweight, try keto. be careful who you hang out with, toxic people are a waste of time.


 No.2866267

>>2866244

i am learning. thank you.


 No.2866269

File: b6a71c822d183cc⋯.jpg (128.76 KB, 1838x2048, 919:1024, CgyjJi3.jpg)

>>2866227

>pplz i dun agree wiff r gay!1!1

Quite the keystone argument of the typical permavirgin /pol/yp

Once we eliminate the stigma against trannies the sooner we can uplift the workers.

I wish we wernt so hyperfocused on these bullshit idpol non-issues


 No.2866285

>>2866269

it is the bourgeois media


 No.2866301


 No.2866310

>>2866301

this is not an example of fascism, fren.


 No.2866318

>>2866091

i like how you only reply with drivel to the funpost part where i mantle the great otherkin roadkill deity, not the freudian cigarposting part about your homoerotic fixations and repressive sexual- let alone in general- tendencies. hows the closet help with activism eh? how does it help you get things done being a liar and a hypocrite, hiding?

>>2866120

>>2866177

greetings trans comrades.

>>2866210

define pro-trans you revisionist weasel

>>2866227

fuck off /pol/ refugee


 No.2866346

>>2866318

>i like how you only reply with drivel to the funpost part

What’s wrong with funposting?


 No.2866351

File: 252bf18cda628c5⋯.jpg (58.61 KB, 720x960, 3:4, zinnia-jones.jpg)

>>2866227

>You are a transvestite who probably enjoys peeping on unsuspecting women.

Pic of horrible monster related


 No.2866361

>>2866351

Who the fuck is this?


 No.2866362

>>2866361

guy picked some radlib sjw who pisses him off as an example of some kind of bathroom predator despite their criminal record being clean

>>2866346

talking about srs is less fun than implying fascist want to be fucked their own fathers


 No.2866494

>>2866362

Uh-huh. Al Capone was just a tax evader too, right?


 No.2866583

File: 51caf4ebb39f618⋯.png (1.7 MB, 1413x737, 1413:737, babyanias.png)

>>2866227

>Men who dress up as women and vice versa are still their respective sex.

Any good Radical Feminist analysis should note how men are hurt by toxic masculinity, it doesn't just look at cross dressers, clap the dust off its hands and go "well, they have a dick, so there is nothing left to discuss," such reductionism benefits literally no one.


 No.2866614

>>2866583

>Any good Radical Feminist analysis should note how men are hurt

🙄


 No.2866640

>>2866583

>Any good Radical Feminist analysis should note how men are hurt by toxic masculinity

Stop confusing Marxist Feminism with Radical Feminism.


 No.2866738

File: d6fe22d0c960125⋯.jpg (83.48 KB, 610x203, 610:203, 93119_v1.jpg)

>>2866583

>such reductionism benefits literally no one.

It benefits plenty of people, particularly young men. This whole chick with dicks debate (what trans people should really be called) is just continued institutional violence against young impressionable men.

Capitalist know that if someone's sexuality isn't awoken in a peaceful mannter it will manifest a whole host psychosis that can later be preyed upon for profit.

Confusing young men that men that chop their dicks off are women, and that not recognizing them as women, and not finding them attractive while they are still trying to come to terms with their sexuality is going to cause a lot of anger after they've been pressured into these essentially homosexual tendencies and later blossom into heterosexuals which 98% will.

It's telling that you never hear anyone pressuring women into accepting FtoM dudes with pussies into accepting these women as men with no reservations. That's it bigoted to not find them every bit as attractive as alpha males?

That not having sexual experiences with these dudes with pussies is bigoted. This whole chicks with dicks things is the continues feminist anti-male agenda.


 No.2866862

>>2866583

I swear the creators of Gumball have a heavy feminisation fetish.


 No.2866866

>>2866738

"anti-male agenda"

the worst take on the bourgeoisie's plot.


 No.2866892

File: 8097e20a19ef996⋯.png (351.04 KB, 1193x1801, 1193:1801, paige.png)

>>2866738

I want a conversation with a feminist and a get MRA nonsense and eyeroll emojis.

This is suppose to be the left right?


 No.2866911

>>2866866

NO U

>>2866892

Far left doesn't mean, "supports my hobby horse activism". And yes the chicks with dicks push is anti-male 4th wave feminism. It's anti-female as well, since it seeks to make what few considerations society has for females because they can bare children evaporate.


 No.2866919

File: 34791bf4b4f36c4⋯.jpg (63.87 KB, 792x514, 396:257, coon lover bitch.jpg)

>>2866911

women having a monopoly on the means of reproduction is dumb and impossible. With technological progression, we will see the deterritorialisation of wombs in their transference to state (and maybe private) operations. Conspiracy theorists already believe that the illuminati already have the capabilities to clone people.

and why is the biological inheritence of a womb liberating in any feminist dimension? it fixes sex roles.


 No.2866921

>>2866892

Anti-idpol left. I don't really care about issues other than the economy, climate and foreign policy. All this cultural war shit (meninism vs feminism, cultural appropriation, fucking statues or whatever) is just tedious noise to me. Whenever I see someone drone on and on about trannies, 'TERFS' or gender-whatever, I instinctively assume they're /pol/ false-flaggers.

Tbh, this thread should be deleted just for the bad optics alone.


 No.2866926

>>2866921

the culture war is important in today's discourse, choosing to ignore it is unstrategic.


 No.2866930

File: 75c57c46ff46b5e⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 2.04 MB, 2400x7000, 12:35, discord trannies.jpg)

>452 posts and 70 image replies omitted.

why is this shit still here?


 No.2866946

File: 80cd324ff4ecba2⋯.gif (316.36 KB, 326x326, 1:1, AAAAAAAAAAAAAA.gif)

>>2866926

Most people seem to be fucking tired of it, me included, and I can't ever seem to find it relevant outside of obscure imageboard discussions or twatter screencaps. Most people care about job security, rent, energy prices, ie. MATERIAL SHIT

Engaging in drawn out twitter discussions about the exact definition of a tranny or who's the biggest dick for being a TERF or whatever is a great way to be considered completely irrelevant to most people's lives. Let the liberals have the 1% trans vote. If they vote exclusively on the trans issue, they're not good comrades anyway.

Fuck the culture war, start talking about real issues


 No.2866947

>>2866946

you can have a vague interest in social justice issues and care heavily about "material shit" too. You are just being pretentious.


 No.2866951

>>2866947

Whichever political movement demonstrates their sincere desire and ability to finally eradicate homosexuality, transgenderism, and miscegenation will win the full popular support of the working people, and I for one don't want that to be the Nazis


 No.2866957

>>2866951

i am working class and support lgbt people - how are you being so general about the proletariat you fucking moron?


 No.2866964

File: 3d886de27d5c8b0⋯.png (110.86 KB, 420x282, 70:47, 1555286642824.png)

>>2866921

>>2866930

>>2866946

>>2866951

it wouldnt be so bad for optics if it wasnt obvious the board favors illiterate nazbol ☭TANKIE☭s who are honest to god just /pol/ detritus and newfags who never read, respect other posters, desire debate, and who constantly shitpost their psychotic reactionary revenge fantasies. everything is a meme or a game to be learned from captioned images divorced from any positive social context.

hence why the "material" lived experience of transgender people, homosexuals, nonwhites, and other traditionally "degenerate" targets of reactionary enmity are derided in the name of being anti idpol. its funny because trannies are very much anti idpol- the whole goal is no longer have to argue for ones validity and humanity constantly- you just interpret any effort towards normalization and getting to egalitarian treatment as counter-rev or revisionist. so you arent anti idpol, youre against people having identities at all outside of "i wanna kill fashies and porky." there is life before and after revolution; i doubt any lumpenproletariat mercenary incel can handle that truth and so they latch onto the material matters of lives they dont even live in some sick simulacrum of an internet socialist who never existed. socialists by nature are people of community who face their comrades and enemies openly; the basement armchair socialist is at least a lumpen, at most a petit booj brat… as if you speak for working people: you speak for yourself and your own depraved agenda.

in short, fuck purity tests. unity today, unity tomorrow, unity forever.


 No.2866969

>>2866947

It's not just a 'vague' interest in idpol - it's everywhere within the mainstream left. From a strategic point of view it's dumb because:

A) The more idpol you try to accomodate, the more fault lines you create in the movement, made evident by all the fucking drama among radlib "leftists" over TERFs and all the other idpol bullshit.

B) Focusing on peripheral idpol issues distracts from more important/politically gainful issues.

C) Focusing on idpol makes you seem like an utopian liberal instead of a practical materialist workers' movement that the masses can relate to.

>>2866951

Fuck off, I'm not saying gays should be repressed. I'm saying we should focus on issues most people can relate to, instead of fringe identity shit.


 No.2866976

File: 5ff6ed47faaee7b⋯.png (550.13 KB, 1225x1509, 1225:1509, commyterf.png)

>>2866911

This thread is literally about Radical Feminism and there are no radical feminists in it, its people using the issue as a proxy to bitch about other things.

Commune with me radfems let us achieve a discussion


 No.2866980

>>2866969

there's no need to "accommodate". The idea of collectivising the proletariat it to create a weapon to overthrow capitalism.


 No.2866988

>>2866964

>unity today, unity tomorrow, unity forever.

Idpol undermines unity by dividing the working class according to identity. Instead of focusing on common interests along class lines, the focus becomes about man vs. woman, white vs. black, trans vs cis and endless debates over gender roles in society, toxic masculinity or whatnot. Debates that bring us nowhere closer to the end of capitalism (and probably just serves to prolong capitalism, IMO). Fine, debate that if you want and continue to pretend that culture is something you can easily control, and I'll just not partake in it. The whole subject has been boring for the last 10 years and you'll never reach a consensus anyway.

>>2866980

You'll never overthrow capitalism if you can't build a credible mass-movement. That requires focusing on what people are most concerned with, and that's mundane shit like rent and job security. You know, what the left was predominantly concerned with before it became politically marginal


 No.2867001

>>2866988

everyone still cares about poverty

you have just spent too much time on the interweb thinking otherwise.


 No.2867019

>We are told that transwomen are a type of woman in exactly the same way as black, disabled or lesbian women are. Therefore to exclude transwomen from any women’s service or facility is the moral equivalent of excluding black or disabled women. Indeed, during March, Vancouver Rape Relief Centre, which is open exclusively to women clients, lost its city council funding after transgender campaigner Morgane Oger argued exactly that.

https://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/1247/decoupled-from-reality/


 No.2867030

File: e4a97f15d343b72⋯.jpg (61.02 KB, 677x960, 677:960, bitch.jpg)

>>2867019

I think that this conversation misses is that, yes, transwomen do likely have male privilege and thus there is an issue with them in women's centers, transgender people are still heavily discriminated against, at least as much as gay men but usually to a much higher degree. People suddenly turn apathetic to struggling transgender people when they mention their transgender status within the queer community.


 No.2867031

File: 9056727bb6d9112⋯.jpg (903.15 KB, 1530x2048, 765:1024, 1506988566265.jpg)

>>2866969

>The more idpol you try to accommodate

mainstream idpol doesnt undermine the superstructure at all, so yeah sure. fuck them. the only reason they arent working with you, tho, is because you cant even muster even cursory understanding of their politics and lives. you so thoroughly alienate them that they run to support fatuous dipshits who will at least give them some marginal gibes and acknowledgement.

>the more fault lines you create in the movement, made evident by all the fucking drama among radlib "leftists" over TERFs and all the other idpol bullshit.

you dont need trannies to have fault lines. youre making them right now by pretending it was trannies, lezzies, and fags who started it and then telling them they ought to shut up about a bunch of shit you guys constantly bring up without any input. people who dont get results advocacy wise are dime a dozen in america. terfs are not left wingers at all, so lol how is this fracturing to attack them?

>Focusing on peripheral idpol issues distracts from more important/politically gainful issues.

oh look, its some zero-sum argument about how minority goals arent aligned with all the other workers somehow. how very revisionist of you. people are already distracted and not accomplishing anything, and it has nothing to do with idpol agendas. some of the most successful work in social justice in the previous century was idpol related and one of the great american socialists of then was martin luther king jr, a socialist who pushed forward purely on idpol.

>Focusing on idpol makes you seem

seem, seem, seem, seem… so fucking what mister big dick energy tone police? have you seen the red scare judgments of average morons? so you would cower and agree with them over identity, but not budge on all the other arguments and basic tenets of marxist thought? this was already discussed in the cockshott thread. there is praxis in abolishing gender roles based in engels and contemporary materialist-feminist dialectic. it is a materialist concern. transgender existence let alone LGBT itself owes much of its existence as a political reality to marx and engels. this is why so many LGBT people throw in with communism. it isnt just (though who doesnt like some marxist idealism like this whole board loves it) idealist: it is about material concerns of survival. we lose jobs, opportunities, safety over what we all are. we live the critique of capitalism; we are eager allies to that fight. the more you guys get into these modes of thought the more you alienate trans people, and for who? a bunch of reactionary- not to mention arguing outside of materialist dialectic- middle class feminists, many of whom are resentful housewives?

>>2866988

>dividing the working class according to identity

how exactly? arent you doing the dividing? are there no black people in future socialist america? does black skin stop existing? does black history suddenly disappear over night?

isnt it you who fears that by acknowledging different identities that this creates sectarianism by nature…? so you are the one othering via a strawman abstraction of an imaginary opponent and making up lines to draw, not the people already living beyond those imaginary borders. to erase these identitarian differences you have to admit the differences and understand them; from that understanding, you can then establish the commonality of all workers. this is why chauvinism by the russians had to be tempered as they worked alongside the other republics in the soviet union; its why minorities have special protections in china to this day.

>man vs. woman, white vs. black, trans vs cis

by denying these divisions exist under capitalist superstructure you are being revisionist. you have to walk before you run; if you want to be communist vanguard you have to show leadership, understanding of these divisions in order to break them down. you cant just jump ahead to breaking them: thats just ignoring things you find uncomfortable or inconvenient to your expediency. if you cant handle basic idpol in a marxist way, how will your desired revolution account for simple geographical differences or charges of chauvinism from any of the longstanding 3rd world anti-imperialist nations? its just as utopian as someone thinking communists would radically accept all identities as it is to think you can just ignore them all without consequence. you have to have a solution to those differences.

>you'll never reach a consensus anyway.

what consensus? this is bizarre. we already have the methods to end capitalism at hand. and thanks to many voices— yes even trannies, trannies who have a material need to retain their jobs or die on the street without! people are organizing all over this country and elsewhere in the world towards tangible improvement of longstanding labor issues.


 No.2867032

>>2867030

what male privilege would transwomen have?


 No.2867045

>>2866964

>leftypol is just red pol

yes pretty much


 No.2867048

>>2866988

Not that I'm arguing its right, but a lot of workers even in poverty get seriously caught up in the most esoteric immaterial shit on a frequent basis


 No.2867051

>>2867048

yes usually reactionary nationalistic stuff


 No.2867052

File: 6380fef488de050⋯.jpg (92.4 KB, 500x500, 1:1, antlers.jpg)

>>2867032

transwomen, growing up male, have all the accumulated privilege that men do until they come out, note the amount of transwomen in men's professions and education, older white transwomen are usually pretty well off

outside of that however are social privilege, transwomen, being socialized like men, can be more charismatic and work within the male patriarchal social structure better then women with female socialization, look at how often you will see transwomen talk over women, just like men do


 No.2867058

>>2867052

do you think that transmen inherit privilege in their transition?


 No.2867071

File: d660af2fef62662⋯.png (173.03 KB, 316x328, 79:82, 1503150750554.png)

>>2867045

begone ye foul nihilist!!! i banish thee and thy black magic to the dying, straight edge punk venue you crawled out of! we must reform the nazbols and engage with them, bad anon!

>>2867048

yes like conspiracy theories about invisible minorities

>>2867052

>look at how often you will see transwomen talk over women, just like men do

well yeah because you believe they are men

>work within the male patriarchal social structure better then women

because theyre men to you

>note the amount of transwomen in men's professions and education,

programming was a womens profession originally nice try tho… also is it bad for women to work traditionally male dominated jobs? is it wrong in the reverse, too? should men not work jobs mostly attributed to women?

privilege is not a truck you can dump all your social power into, its a series of tubes that you network and navigate the world with


 No.2867087

>>2867052

>have all the accumulated privilege

I'm gonna stop you right there, and ask you to stop using that last word

>older white transwomen are usually pretty well off

Just call them rich, you idiot that doesn't treat color as if it's relevant.

>be more charismatic and work within the male patriarchal social structure better then women with female socialization, look at how often you will see transwomen talk over women, just like men do

What now? How the fuck does the unsubstantiated claim that Trans people are more charismatic make any sense? *


 No.2867088

>>2867087

*as if it 's relevant


 No.2867089

File: 831dcb6ea61f61b⋯.jpg (60.67 KB, 467x700, 467:700, dream.jpg)

>>2867058

idk, maybe a little bit, so much important socialization happens at a young age and in childhood, I mean, just look at how many transmen are artists, in contrast to transwomen, even if they come out in their teens

>>2867071

> well yeah because you believe they are men

I am transgender, I don't believe in such strict classifications at this point, fundamentally I think transgender people are on an entirely different gender concept then everyone else.


 No.2867090

>>2867088

**does

I got doubles at least


 No.2867117

The problem with feminism and gender crit in general is that most people are hypocritical about it.

The average college girl feminist: Gender roles are sexist! Every body is beautiful! Every woman is perfect as she is!

Also the average college girl feminist:Where are all the "real" men? Sorry I only find guys over 6ft tall attractive. *mile long list of male gender roles she desires in a mate intensifies*

And that is why it's so hard to take all forms of gender theory seriously. For every woman out there that legitimately wants equality there are three more spoiled little brats who use feminism as an excuse to act entitled. IMO we should adopt the eastern idea of feminism, where men and women have equal rights and equal worth while still acknowledging our differences in cultural needs and desires.

Hypocrite-feminism is a scourge upon western politics. It decays the left into madness with distracting identity politics, and gives the far right ammo to say "see, I told you so, women are so stupid we should take away their right to vote haha!".


 No.2867125

>>2864606

Doesn't account tor a lot of context anon, for example, lgbt people may have a harder time securing work, safe enviroments, and may be dealing with stress from stigma or direct harassment. Does this data show that LGBT are inferior parents, or they have a harder time acquiring proper resources. The study doesn't account for much other than sexuality.

Besides, all this shit does is split unity.


 No.2867133

>>2867052

>believing in "privilege"

muh identity politics


 No.2867140

File: 02d4adfe3ae480d⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 72.67 KB, 800x410, 80:41, 1501292768046.jpg)

Gender

*BRAAAAAAP*

Bunker


 No.2867460

>>2856544

>90% of __ is communist

This is just flat out wrong, 90% of any group is not communist. The Left is effectively dead. I agree with all your other points tho


 No.2867726

>>2867117

Spotted the incel lmao.


 No.2867727

>>2867052

>transwomen, being socialized like men, can be more charismatic

<it's the patriarchy's fault that I'm autistic


 No.2867755

File: ed56158b5c02447⋯.gif (983.97 KB, 500x281, 500:281, prof crying.gif)

>>2867052

>tfw you will never be a boy deer with sexy antlers


 No.2867758

>>2867726

>i can find sex easily and you can't, so i win and you lose

Nice hedonistic natalism, normy


 No.2867759

>>2867726

I'm a girl you retard.

Also, we don't fuck thirsty doormats.


 No.2867760

>>2867759

Somehow I doubt that. Regardless your rhetoric is really commonplace in the manosphere. Not every women wants some uber masculine dude and neither does every feminist. You couldn't even begin to substantiate this. It's bullshit anti-feminist pull out to try and discredit feminism and push stereotypes about how women all secretly want uber masculine chad.

>>2867758

Incel doesn't mean someone who can't get sex. Basically everyone who isn't in incel communities uses it to refer to the ideology of those communities. I know plenty of virgin or romantically unsuccessful dudes who don't go on braincels and rant out about "foids" and "chad, stacey" blah blah.


 No.2867774

File: 8b9a2a5308de0a6⋯.jpg (41.11 KB, 480x653, 480:653, Dealing with feminism.jpg)

>>2867760

>Incel doesn't mean someone who can't get sex.

Except it does, it is literally the abbreviation for involuntary celibate.

>Basically everyone

You mean propaganda outlets like NYT, wapo, vox etc. who paint incels as the new OUTGROUP that it ok to discriminate against?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel#References

>I know plenty of virgin or romantically unsuccessful dudes

Yes, the dispossessed should just suffer in silence. How dare they analyze the systems and its actors responsible for their status as sexual underclass. Your feelings not being hurt is what is important.


 No.2867777

>>2867760

The "manosphere" wants feminism to be gone period, while I want it to be exactly the opposite - improved based on equality rather than entitlements. Myself and plenty other women want this because we can see that the future of western feminism in its current state is actually failing and people like you who refuse to acknowledge these problems are only contributing to the demise.

You are committing the standard fallacy of viewing any criticism of feminism, particularly the kind used to improve it, of being 100% raging misogyny. This is a false dichotomy fallacy.

I'm guessing you are a male feminist who thinks he is helping. You are not. You are just stroking your own man-ego with your shitty mansplaining and arrogant attitude. Do you know how I know you are doing this? Because your response was "lol incel" -we girls never talk like that with each other because the idea of rating men based on how much sex they get from us is actually just conforming to the idea that girls are only good for sex and is objectifying as fuck.

>Not every women wants some uber masculine dude and neither does every feminist.

oh honey if you could be a fly on the wall of some of the brunch conversations I have had when no men are around. I actually almost feel sorry for you that you unironically believe this.

Sure, some of us don't want the stereotypical "super-chad" or whatever you call him, but there are some very common key factors and exceptions do not disprove the rule.


 No.2867778

>>2867768

>Except it does, that it is literally the abbreviation for involuntary celibate

But no one except incels uses it that way. Sorry, you don't get to dictate the popular lexicon.

>You mean propaganda outlets like NYT, wapo, vox etc. who paint incels as the new OUTGROUP that it ok to discriminate against?

No one said it's okay to discriminate incels. They're simply pointing out the violent misogynistic ideology which is present in those communities. Quote them saying its okay to discriminate against someone for being a virgin without equivocating their use of the word "incel".

>Yes, the dispossess should just suffer in silence. How dare they analyze the systems and its actors responsible for their status as sexual underclass. Your feelings not being hurt is what is important.

Holy shit are you serious right now? You can't force women to have sex with you. Sex requires autonomy and consent. Incel's aren't the proletariat revolting against the bourgeoisie. They're the reactionary royalist trying to reinstate a feudal monarchy.


 No.2867785

>>2867777

>The "manosphere" wants feminism to be gone period, while I want it to be exactly the opposite - improved based on equality rather than entitlements. Myself and plenty other women want this because we can see that the future of western feminism in its current state is actually failing and people like you who refuse to acknowledge these problems are only contributing to the demise.

But feminism is already based on equality, so I don't know what issues you have. I seriously doubt you could point to any systemic issues with feminism as a school of thought (which isn't a thing - there is no "feminism". There are many different schools of feminist thought which are fundamentally at odds with each other in different ways including what common goal to fight for)

>You are committing the standard fallacy of viewing any criticism of feminism, particularly the kind used to improve it, of being 100% raging misogyny. This is a false dichotomy fallacy.

No I'm calling out your "criticism" for being bullshit manosphere rhetoric which doesn't actually exist in reality.

>oh honey if you could be a fly on the wall of some of the brunch conversations I have had when no men are around. I actually almost feel sorry for you that you unironically believe this.

That's great, I'm still not going to buy into your rhetoric "honey".

>Sure, some of us don't want the stereotypical "super-chad" or whatever you call him, but there are some very common key factors and exceptions do not disprove the rule.

You're really missing the point which is that your are alleging feminist are uncritical of male gender roles and how men are effected by those roles and you're trying to say this is evident in their sexual preferences. I'm saying that this is bs, feminist are critical of male gender roles, their sexual preferences are diverse and most importantly its besides the point.


 No.2867787

>>2867777

>everyone woman fantasizes about being raped by chad

<i am definitely a real girl tho


 No.2867790

>>2867787

yeah, he must think we're retards if we're falling for this.


 No.2867803

Child bullies are sexier, more popular and have more dates than their victims when they grow up, new Canadian research suggests

Two new studies find child bullies are well-adjusted and calculating

Bullies pick on and intimidate others because it makes them more popular

Likely to have more dates and more sex when they grow up, research says

Anti-bullying charity founder slams the two studies as a 'step backwards'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3177486/Child-bullies-sexier-popular-dates-victims-grow-new-research-suggests.html


 No.2867806

>>2867803

also 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧Anti-bullying charity founder🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 are a bunch of bootlickers


 No.2867813

>>2867787

>everyone woman fantasizes about being raped by chad

This isn't even remotely close to what I stated. You're a retard.

>>2867785

>You're really missing the point which is that your are alleging feminist are uncritical of male gender roles and how men are effected by those roles and you're trying to say this is evident in their sexual preferences. I'm saying that this is bs, feminist are critical of male gender roles, their sexual preferences are diverse and most importantly its besides the point.

Not enough are though. That's my point. There are too many people claiming to be feminists that don't understand that equal status also means equal responsibility.

If you actually read my posts with intent to understand them, you would realize that this is my only criticism and I am not actually wanting to get rid of feminisms true form in any way. But instead you chose to interpret it based on some retarded preconceived notion that you read on some redpill board and have completely misunderstood my posts to mean something completely different than what I was actually saying.

And now I am saying that stupid shit like this is why feminism never gets improved. You refuse to acknowledge the shortcomings within the movement, thus refusing to fix them, thus guaranteeing they will never be fixed. If feminism fails it will be the fault of people like you.


 No.2867816

>>2867803

Well no shit, being a bullying victim fucks people up.

I'm more interested in seeing how bullies compare to normal people who weren't traumatized as children into being afraid of making eye contact with strangers or whatever.


 No.2867820

>>2867813

>equal rights means equal lefts

<I am totally a girl and feminist why don't you believe me???


 No.2867824

>>2867816

Highlights

We create high and low male Dark Triad (DT) characters.

We obtain ratings from women of the attractiveness of these characters’ personalities.

Women rate the high DT personality significantly more attractive than the low DT.

Raters also scored the character on the Big 5. Ratings were as expected from DT self-report data.

Structural modeling showed attractiveness was not explained by correlated Big 5 traits.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886913012245


 No.2867826

>>2867820

>Equality doesn't mean equality

Ok.


 No.2867829

>>2867824

>Structural modeling showed attractiveness was not explained by correlated Big 5 traits.

wait I'm confused

doesn't this mean that basically they found nothing?


 No.2867833

>>2867787

Well maybe not raped. Women only desire Chad, anything else is settling. We should just kill every non-Chad (this includes me fwiw) and allow natural harems to form without incels around to suffer. Women can perform any form labor, we don't excessive amounts of men.


 No.2867834

>>2867790

<You're only a girl if you agree with everything we say. Stop thinking for yourself bitch!


 No.2867835

>>2867813

>Not enough are though. That's my point. There are too many people claiming to be feminists that don't understand that equal status also means equal responsibility.

I don't see why I should accept this claim. What is equal responsibility to you? Dating some guy they find unattractive? A feminist isn't morally responsible to date a manlet to "fight gender roles".

>If you actually read my posts with intent to understand them, you would realize that this is my only criticism and I am not actually wanting to get rid of feminisms true form in any way. But instead you chose to interpret it based on some retarded preconceived notion that you read on some redpill board and have completely misunderstood my posts to mean something completely different than what I was actually saying.

No I'm just calling it how I see it. You aren't witty, you aren't clever. This rhetoric is identical to what I read on redpill boards which is why I'm calling it out. Keep denying that though and appealing to some unidentifiable nuance in your misogynistic ideology.

>And now I am saying that stupid shit like this is why feminism never gets improved. You refuse to acknowledge the shortcomings within the movement, thus refusing to fix them, thus guaranteeing they will never be fixed. If feminism fails it will be the fault of people like you.

So I guess you're out of arguments now, huh?


 No.2867839

>>2867833

non-Chad's should just be gay like me instead of being incels


 No.2867840

>>2867829

No, it means the Dark Triad scale was independent and not just a function of the big 5 data.

>>2867833

What we need are ste-mandated gfs and death penalty for all cheaters tbh


 No.2867841

>>2867839

I can undertand this thinking when you are 18-24. But also you can't just force sexuality.


 No.2867845

>>2867835

>I don't see why I should accept this claim. What is equal responsibility to you? Dating some guy they find unattractive? A feminist isn't morally responsible to date a manlet to "fight gender roles".

Actually I meant the exact opposite of this. No woman should feel forced to date someone we don't find attractive. That's basically rape. My point is that men shouldn't either. I see a lot of "feminists" who think they can be unattractive fat disgusting slobs and men should just accept them as being just as dateable as a girl who actually exercises, eats well, reads philosophy, educates and improves on herself. THAT'S what equal responsibility means to me, recognizing that life is not a one way street.

>This rhetoric is identical to what I read on redpill boards which is why I'm calling it out

Except it isn't you are just interpreting it as such out of intellectual laziness.


 No.2867846

>>2867840

Oh! I get it, the Big 5 scale is a different thin from Dark Triad scale.

I wonder how this applies to men - don't men find super villainess/femme fetale characters hot too?


 No.2867848

>>2867778

>They're the reactionary royalist trying to reinstate a feudal monarchy.

Nice strawman. In the west the "sexual liberation" came with the installation of neoliberlism, while the CCCP never had one. You are just a liberal trying to defend your hypergamy, which of course is in your self-interest.

The sexual free market has lead, like its economic counterpart, to massive inequality that will only get worse. Collective rights are more important than individualist greed to have a harem as a high-value male or having the privilege of being pumped and dumped by the former for young females.


 No.2867858

>>2867844

There is no sexual free market because sex doesn't operate like a market. Incels are males who are mad feminism has allowed women the right to choose who they can have sex with. The entire ideology is a product of male sexual entitlement and patriarchy. In this sense it really is an issue for feminism. It's about stripping women autonomy and state sanctioned rape. Sounds pretty reactionary to me.

>>2867845

>Actually I meant the exact opposite of this. No woman should feel forced to date someone we don't find attractive. That's basically rape. My point is that men shouldn't either. I see a lot of "feminists" who think they can be unattractive fat disgusting slobs and men should just accept them as being just as dateable as a girl who actually exercises, eats well, reads philosophy, educates and improves on herself. THAT'S what equal responsibility means to me, recognizing that life is not a one way street.

Wow more redpill rhetoric which is bs and unable to be substantiated beyond anecdotal evidence which has nothing to do with any systemic critique of feminism.

>Except it isn't you are just interpreting it as such out of intellectual laziness.

Haha okay dude. I think I'm gonna check out of this debate now.


 No.2867862


 No.2867863

>>2867858

You are literally only comprehending maybe 10% of what I am saying and then mistaking your poor English skills as proof that you are right.


 No.2867887

>>2867858

>sex doesn't operate like a market.

Wrong, it explains it very well. Since having children is so costly for females (9 months vs minutes) they will put a much higher barrier on attractiveness, since having sex with a low-tier male would be huge cost to them. It is a much better strategy to get fucked by high-tier male because the male offspring is going to have a much higher rate/chance at reproduction, even if Chad leaves her for a younger, fresher girl. This is why single mothers should get zero welfare, they make incels pay for Chad’s and her crotchspawn while the female does not “have to” do her part of the social contract. It will lead back to times when only 1 male reproduced for every 17 females.


 No.2867890

>>2867887

You're right that sex doesn't operate like a market.

Sex "work" isn't work because there is nothing produced by the "labor". There is no real value to sex. Anyone pretending otherwise is a con artist of some sort.


 No.2867902

>>2867887

I'm not interested in arguing with you /pol/ incel cross power. have fun ranting about how chad is fucking all the women.


 No.2867909

File: b19f375baf186e4⋯.jpg (62.65 KB, 572x340, 143:85, prtnr_chart.jpg)

>>2867902

>everybody I don't like is /pol/

This is your mind on idealism.


 No.2867910

>>2867858

>Wow more redpill rhetoric which is bs and unable to be substantiated beyond anecdotal evidence which has nothing to do with any systemic critique of feminism.

See, this is how you spot someone who spends all his time in an echo chamber. Calling something "redpill rhetoric" isn't even an argument. You are just as bad as the idiots on /pol/ who will dismiss liberal ideas with "lol bluepill faggotry". You only think that shit counts as an argument because you are used to only being around people who already agree with you and won't call you out on how blatantly circular this kind of reasoning is.


 No.2867914

>>2867862

That's not what that says. It says men are attracted to RECEPTIVE women, which is totally different.

If a woman was receptive towards sexual advances, but also a bitch, I think you'd still see attraction.


 No.2867924

>>2867910

>See, this is how you spot someone who spends all his time in an echo chamber. Calling something "redpill rhetoric" isn't even an argument. You are just as bad as the idiots on /pol/ who will dismiss liberal ideas with "lol bluepill faggotry". You only think that shit counts as an argument because you are used to only being around people who already agree with you and won't call you out on how blatantly circular this kind of reasoning is

My argument is that the person is trying to repackage redpill talking points as some sort of nuanced critique of feminism but that this doesn't change the fact what they're saying is bs which has nothing to do with feminism. I'm not even clear on what they're saying. Do they think feminism teaches women that you don't have to care for yourself and are entitled to whatever partner you like? This is just nonsense which can't be substantiated.


 No.2867932

>>2867914

> responsiveness is defined as a characteristic “that may signal to potential partners that one understands, values and supports important aspects of their self-concept and is willing to invest resources in the relationship.”

Sounds like they are interested in the mate and willing to invest in a relationship, which is nice, unlike the badboys who hit their girls and cheat on them.

<“Women may perceive a responsive stranger as less desirable for different reasons," said Birnbaum in a press release. "Women may perceive this person as inappropriately nice and manipulative (i.e., trying to obtain sexual favors) or eager to please, perhaps even as desperate, and therefore less sexually appealing. Alternatively, women may perceive a responsive man as vulnerable and less dominant.”


 No.2867952

>>2867932

No, it sounds like they're interested in an easy lay. A girl who is receptive will probably put out. That's hot because it means you get your dick wet. But that doesn't mean they find niceness, itself, attractive.


 No.2869086

>>2856439

Just lurked r/gender_critical, a lot of posters were saying Porn should be banned. Is this really the viewpoint among terfs because you ain’t taking shit from me.

>>2867760

>Regardless your rhetoric is really commonplace in the manosphere.

I’ve lurked the manosphere and a good chunk of the people their are women.

>>2867778

>Holy shit are you serious right now? You can't force women to have sex with you. Sex requires autonomy and consent. Incel's aren't the proletariat revolting against the bourgeoisie. They're the reactionary royalist trying to reinstate a feudal monarchy.

While a lot of right-wing Incels do believe their entitled to sex. Leftcels are different. We believe that it’s the fault of Porky conditioning women through mass media, advertising, and marketing to only be attracted to Porky. This is a real problem.

>>2867839

Only works for guys who don’t want children.

>>2867845

>reads philosophy

Depends on what type of Philosophy. A girl that reads Focult is more unattractive than a no booker.

>>2867924

No their argument is that calling something “redpilled” does not refute it.


 No.2870057


 No.2870132

File: 719e90e78f1b7a5⋯.png (170.11 KB, 720x1280, 9:16, Screenshot_2019-04-20-06-3….png)

>>2865981

>as far as i know, the material economy of gender has reached it's climax with the fact that all sexes are treated equally as shittily by the bourgeoisie as one another.

That's where you're wrong kiddo.


 No.2870141

>>2867835

>So I guess you're out of arguments now, huh?

Lurker here.

Was following your conversation and would just like to point out that you are a dumbass. There is not one single post from you that was not filled with fallacious non-arguments.

And the chick you were arguing with wasn't posting redpill trash. equal responsibility for equal rights is literally 1st wave feminism. Imagine being such a monumentally stupid SJW that you see a first wave feminist and call her an incel. like holy fucking shit dude if you could comprehend how big of an absolute retarded faggot you look like to everyone in this thread who has an Autism Level above 105 you would die of embarrassment.


 No.2870156

>>2867031

>>dividing the working class according to identity

>how exactly? arent you doing the dividing? are there no black people in future socialist america? does black skin stop existing? does black history suddenly disappear over night?

Identities are politically irrelevant. There's a difference between acknowledging that identities exist and identity politics.


 No.2870159

>>2867117

I have a theory that women desperatly want to live in a society full of beta femboys but are only physiologically capable of being aroused by alpha chads and this fact makes them despise their sex drive.


 No.2870166

File: 73c7528c811440e⋯.png (207.7 KB, 327x316, 327:316, 2ec.png)

>>2867760

>incels are what I claim them to be, not what THEY claim to be

>>2867778

>But no one except incels uses it that way. Sorry, you don't get to dictate the popular lexicon.

Holy shit this is parodic.


 No.2870174

>>2867952

I find niceness attractive in a mate because I don't want to have to put up with a total bitch all the time. You know, the same reason any normal human would like a nice person.


 No.2870177

File: 47b10fb8ee5239c⋯.png (259.08 KB, 720x1280, 9:16, Screenshot_2019-04-20-07-5….png)

>>2870141

>And the chick you were arguing with wasn't posting redpill trash. equal responsibility for equal rights is literally 1st wave feminism.

Wrong again, bucko.


 No.2870393

>>2870159

Can a girlposter here confirm or deny this?


 No.2872964

This thread has my blessings as the dedicated trans discourse containment thread. From now on report other threads which bring up the topic, or whenever a thread is derailed by trans discourse.


 No.2872975

Is the anfem flag retarde new or is it just another swedish socdem incel persona?


 No.2872982

>>2863103

Should we just kill all trans people like Hitler did with the jooz

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

 No.2872986

>>2865236

back to the trash thread you degenerate


 No.2872990

>>2870166

You can't fathom how a word means something different than what it literally says? Better get checked for autism. Could help explain why you never get laid. Don't worry, there's therapy for it. Things will get better!

>>2870159

>are only physiologically capable of being aroused by alpha chads

Interesting take but it isn't that bad. Women aren't physiologically incapable of being aroused by femboys, they just prefer chads. Also they end up hooking up with them because they're more assertive.

They do hate themselves for getting involved with shitbags though. 100% true.


 No.2872993

>>2872986

>degenerate

back to /pol/


 No.2874727

>>2870177

Use of white feather as a WWI shaming tactic was very heavily internally criticized.


 No.2874745

>>2869086

>a lot of posters were saying Porn should be banned

It's the view of all radfems, TERFs included.


 No.2874769

>>2874745

wtf I no longer hate trannies now


 No.2874788

Fuck trannies


 No.2875434

LGBT culture is a meme and consists of self-important liberals that act as if the concept of homosexuality is viewed publicly the same way it was in 1976 change my mind


 No.2875462

File: 29abd47608cfe16⋯.jpg (122.11 KB, 621x396, 69:44, weir-boltgun.jpg)

>>2874769

I have some Max Hardcore. Here, let me show you.


 No.2875480

>>2858852

>>2860765

>>2860870

>>2866052

>>2866091

>>2866227

>muh mutiliation

should all cosmetic surgery be made illegal?


 No.2875555

>>2875480

Why not, it’s a waste of resources?


 No.2875563

>>2875480

Seems reasonable, unless someone is horribly deformed or something. Like if your face gets blown off, reconstructive surgery would seem quite reasonable.


 No.2875570

File: ff5b2783462b4de⋯.jpeg (505.17 KB, 1080x1732, 270:433, D4897rbXkAYeld--01.jpeg)


 No.2875585

Why is there even an internet war between trannies and incels? Weren't most trannies incels before transitioning? Incels aren't criticizing trannies when they talk of women, so I don't know why trannies get upset on the behalf of women.


 No.2875588

>>2875570

B-BUT ITS NOT A FETISH


 No.2875595

File: 076ca6d8644aa90⋯.jpg (67.19 KB, 640x640, 1:1, drink.jpg)

>>2875570

>I haven't had sex in tow months and I fjust feel awful. I'm 21 so my sexuality, and sex drive were a MAJOR part of my life, and I honestly feel a whole lot is missing right now.

And feminists continue their lying how it doesn't matter, there are more important things, you are not ENTITLED to sex etc. when it is so obviously fundamentally important that those who had it very quickly change their tune once they lose it.

>>2875585

its a feminist plot of divide et impera


 No.2875633

>>2875595

Theres nothing feminist about this


 No.2875637

>>2875633

about what


 No.2875638

File: 883681909a6b7f6⋯.jpg (12.72 KB, 233x217, 233:217, images.jpeg.jpg)

>>2875588

ejaculation is just an ideological pathology, same as wanting to get fucked in the ass, it satisfies a western logic of sexuality. I feel like the impersonation of femininity is still an inherently sexual expression, that's why women are comfortable with their own homosexual tendencies. Or in the words of orthodox Christianity, women are the devil, they invite lust into the soul. In my own unconscious way, this is why it satisfies me to imagine wild animals fucking human women, the lust spell of the pussy extends to all beasts, this is why dogs love pussy.


 No.2876668

>>2875555

>>2875563

One of the miracles of medical technology is that we can surpass nature. Obviously we should prioritize cosmetic surgery for people who need it, but in a society that could afford to expend the resources why shouldn't it be available to everyone if they want it?


 No.2876681

>>2867031

>>2866964

this, it's way more divisive to get super defensive and screech about muh idpo (a term which, remember, originated from right wingers complaining about how leftists ignore individualism) whenever trans people or gay people or black people or whatever other group try to advocate for themselves. These reforms (for better access to stuff trans people might want, marriage equality, anti-discrimination) should be advocated, and when they inevitable fail to be realized due to capitalism's limits, these people can then be radicalized.

Or you no-book brainlets can just keep making 20 posts a day about whatever shit you saw on the tv that hurt your fee-fees so you can feel edgy like pol but also smarter than them for managing to not fall for white supremacist talking points like the vast majority of humanity manages to do


 No.2876792

>>2876681

Are you a collage student?


 No.2876838

File: aec78058be3dbde⋯.png (180.65 KB, 826x1200, 413:600, 1341000528895.png)

>>2872964

ur doing good work and enough of it

>>2875555

>>2875563

trannies get many surgeries to look better out of neurotic necessity. it might be worth banning once you make a world where gender is abolished and bearded ladies are a norm— no, nevermind… thats not fucking realistic, is it? chauvinism isnt going to go away right away. on some level the surgeries arent always external safety concerns (pass to survive, stealth to survive) but also matters of being acceptable to society's demands and the internalizing of society's rejection. i just dont think you can get rid of those biases easily, so you wont get rid of trannies making themselves less of an eyesore to others.

>>2875585

i had quite a lot of sex, speaking only for myself. why would anyone label themselves an incel? youre not being forced to be celibate, youre just depressed and having trouble living under capitalism lol. most (male) people dont get laid often… they dont make a cult of mediocrity out of it. incels are the definition of envy and impotent rage; instead of focusing on the system that has devalued them and made them redundant (rendering them reserve labor forces, lumpenproles), they blame women who are just as much subject to the system, who are just acting as symptoms of the problems with superstructure. incels also show a lot of signs of wanting to be trans for poor reasons: they think women have overwhelming privileges and want to "steal" those privileges somehow. trans know being woman adjacent is just bullshit, garbage, no one should ask for this willingly, not an improvement at all unless youre truly trans.

i also wonder how one can be a chauvinist incel and also embrace socialism. further, maybe some trans are just tsundere for awkward, mean sadboys

>>2875638

damn dude what are you smoking

>>2876681

>These reforms (for better access to stuff trans people might want, marriage equality, anti-discrimination) should be advocated, and when they inevitable fail to be realized due to capitalism's limits, these people can then be radicalized.

if you are paying attention obama only kept trans protections in place through an executive order which was unceremoniously reversed by another executive order (trans serving in military as well was this flimsy half measure). it was weak and simply defined justice department interpretation of gender and sex discrimination as including transgender identities. to actually enshrine transgender rights in law properly shouldve been done if its so very mainstream and normalized, but this half assed measure shows just how radical and difficult to justify trans rights are.

>Or you no-book brainlets can just keep making 20 posts a day about whatever shit you saw on the tv that hurt your fee-fees so you can feel edgy like pol but also smarter than them for managing to not fall for white supremacist talking points like the vast majority of humanity manages to do

they just need to socialize with the other and defuse their fears to manifest concrete actions

>>2876792

>collage

are you a youtube comment?


 No.2876933

File: d0da3f62a95cbf0⋯.jpeg (10.21 KB, 151x225, 151:225, Idealism.jpeg)

>>2876838

>trannies get many surgeries to look better out of neurotic necessity.

>on some level the surgeries arent always external safety concerns (pass to survive, stealth to survive) but also matters of being acceptable to society's demands and the internalizing of society's rejection. i just dont think you can get rid of those biases easily, so you wont get rid of trannies making themselves less of an eyesore to others.

>feels > reals the post


 No.2876974

File: 8647b741a1ed595⋯.jpg (10.28 KB, 255x225, 17:15, Enjoying_Autism.jpg)

>>2875434

Not entirely. There are still people who are treated like shit for who they are and need a community to support them.

Pride parades are peak bourgeois decadence though.

>>2875588

Sexuality is obviously a component in it for most people. That doesn't mean it's just a fetish.

>>2875595

>And feminists continue their lying how it doesn't matter

What? Where do they do this? This isn't a typical feminist thing.

>there are more important things, you are not ENTITLED to sex etc

Those things are both true. Doesn't mean that sex isn't important to a lot of people. If you're an alienated young man incapable of maintaining a sex life appropriate to your age, that sucks. It's horrible that our society failed you like this.

>>2876933

>unironically using feels vs reals

oh wow


 No.2876993

File: 7325f1b10904c4b⋯.jpg (32.18 KB, 593x448, 593:448, borg.jpg)

>>2876933

<feels don't real


 No.2877021

File: dc0ad7c0bfb03b7⋯.jpg (267.19 KB, 1073x521, 1073:521, 1360400306974.jpg)

>>2876933

they arent mutually exclusive and your insistence on being an aloof, dour gay baby is most assuredly you preferring the feels of being edgy and elitist over the reals of trannies having to live with their decisions

you arent cool dude

youre antisocial


 No.2877029

File: ed36e5dcef57cf6⋯.jpg (112.89 KB, 577x577, 1:1, ussr.jpg)

>>2877021

>i had quite a lot of sex

>YOUre antisocial


 No.2877094

File: c21f5af3292c086⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 80.76 KB, 604x453, 4:3, 1358992190837.jpg)

>>2877029

the sign of a great debater is making non sequitur references that reflect their schizotypal paranoia… "other people have more sex than me and heres why thats a bad thing!!!"

normal humans have sex go reee about it somewhere else, the revolution isnt a shonen redemption arc for lumpenproletariat anime shitposters who think theyre the hero

people have feelings and thats exactly why youre being butthurt and antisocial and refusing to engage in any meaningful way

how many times do we have to have this conversation /leftypol/, marxism is not an individualist ideology thats going to get you laid, fix your lack of initiative, or let you wage war against "normies…" its not self help.

got nothing against "incels," just like i dont despise leprechauns, neither are fucking real lmao.


 No.2877114

File: d505463776bafbf⋯.jpg (44.81 KB, 500x375, 4:3, d505463776bafbfc4f3af6012b….jpg)

>>2877094

>schizo

Yes, you are.

> marxism is not an individualist ideology

>youre being butthurt and antisocial and refusing to engage


 No.2877141

File: d5cb0413ac68447⋯.png (252.28 KB, 827x1200, 827:1200, 1341000599523.png)

>>2877114

nice cryptic and disjointed response… are you done derailing and seething now? do you need a hug or something?


 No.2878075

File: fbd18f35b8f3e7b⋯.jpeg (40.25 KB, 500x703, 500:703, when will it end.jpeg)

Is anyone else completely baffled at just how much the left is in the total stranglehold of tranny idpol? I can't count how many times I've seen people claim that gender is a spook (which is true) but also paradoxically think that gender dysphoria is a deterministic, inborn condition. Even places like r/stupidpol which otherwise mocks tranny idpol into the ground can't seem to escape its grip, and questioning the idea of gender dysphoria is met with just a bit less hostility than on other subs. It's just so unfathomable how much the left focuses on asskissing these people who are clearly just twisted by alienation just like so many others but who don't get the same attention.


 No.2878092

>>2878075

>I can't count how many times I've seen people claim that gender is a spook (which is true) but also paradoxically think that gender dysphoria is a deterministic, inborn condition.

I'm not sure if these sentiments are strictly contradictory. Gender is a spook, but it is a spook constantly reinforced by people around us. If the person you naturally want to be conflicts with the stereotype of your gender, you get a tension. That tension is gender dysphoria.


 No.2878094

>>2878075

That's not a paradox.

Gender is a social construct, but it still exists. Dysphoria is just the cognitive dissonance between the social construct of gender and ones inability to fit within that social construct.

When society says "boys are like this, girls are like this" and you aren't like that, and it causes your relationships to suffer and interferes with your ability to find work and it comes with all kinds of legal hurtles, it leads to distress. It doesn't have to be viewed as some kind magical chi imbalance between your male body and your female chakras or whatever the fuck


 No.2878108

>>2877141

I wish there was a cute girl to help me live in reality and that it was still 2003 and I was in high school and still had a future that could not be just years and years of my shit being fucked up.

At least I am not balding.


 No.2878117

>>2878108

Then just listen to his sage advice!

> fix your lack of initiative


 No.2878210

>>2858863

>Like, I don't know what you people want. The efficacy of HRT and SRS/GAS aren't really that disputed among psychologists. I get that it yucks you out or whatever, but the comparison to anorexia is wrong and dumb.

It's more appropriate than you think, anorexia nervosa as concieved today is a culture bound syndrome

The universal aspects of it are a feeling of sickness in the stomach and food refusal

The body dysmorphia is secondary to this, there's some very interesting research out there connecting the spread of body dysmorphia to the spread of western media

>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/

>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4977075/

>>Well it’s often that people who transition after a few years don’t like it,regret it

>It's like 1%, not "often". They just get hyped up by the media.

I can tear this all apart

Would (you) like me to or would you prefer to leave Pandora's box unopened?


 No.2878219

>>2878210

>It's more appropriate than you think, anorexia nervosa as concieved today is a culture bound syndrome

I think you misunderstood.

Anorexia's symptoms don't improve when someone loses weight, and someone doesn't become less anorexic when they are skinny, and instead the only way to treat the disease is with therapy This makes it different from gender dysphoria because therapy has never been as effective at improving the the symptoms actually do improve with things like HRT and SRS/GAS.

>I can tear this all apart

>Would (you) like me to or would you prefer to leave Pandora's box unopened?

Go ahead. Prove to me that all trannies regret transitioning and kill themselves or whatever retarded shit you believe.


 No.2878277

>>2878219

>Anorexia's symptoms don't improve when someone loses weight, and someone doesn't become less anorexic when they are skinny,

This is by definition, if the symptoms abate, then they are not anorexic and no longer suffer from anorexia nervosa

Key point here is that anorexia is a medical condition, where anorexia nervosa is psychological

Recall that the definition of borderline comes from the clinician being unable to decide if their patient is psychotic or neurotic

>and instead the only way to treat the disease is with therapy

Emerging evidence suggests that medical marijuana is a more effective treatment

>This makes it different from gender dysphoria because therapy has never been as effective at improving the the symptoms actually do improve with things like HRT and SRS/GAS.

What if there was a psychopharmaceutical intervention, or neuropsych intervention that was more effective than surgery, just as there is a psychopharmaceutical intervention that is more effective than psychotherapy?

What then?


 No.2878301

File: 4e28dc72f658def⋯.png (203.5 KB, 540x457, 540:457, tumblr_inline_pq8kwyA09E1r….png)

>reading through this thread and seeing anons literally defend idpol


 No.2878314

>Gender Criticism

What the fuck has this site devolved to. Can someone tell me where the old people moved?


 No.2878319

>>2878314

This thread actually exists to stop off-topic gender shit, especially the shit that was ruining the cockshott threads. Better than having to police every thread and report it.


 No.2878364

>>2878314

It's called the Containment bunker for a reason. It kept popping up everywhere else.


 No.2878472

>>2878094

>>2878092

Here's what I said:

>but also paradoxically think that gender dysphoria is a deterministic, inborn condition

Please learn to read before you use this website, thanks.


 No.2878480

File: e45a0249098f95a⋯.jpg (27.74 KB, 225x350, 9:14, 320003.jpg)

>itt: brainlets who haven't actually read a word of feminist theory in their life and can't see how being anti-trans is identity politics, as trans people upset the division of labor within the home/etc (a unit which reproduces the working class)

>brainlets can't see how it is contradictory to assert that gender is a construct yet trans people are at the same time violating the sanctity of this construct and must be kept in line..by policing them on the terms of this very construct

>utopian brainlets that cant comprehend the fact that communism will not magically efface gender biases as the structuring and emergence of socialism is not in a vacuum and even lenin emphasized marxist feminism

it seems to me as if this whole discussion emerges from crude bourgeois disgust and a purity complex


 No.2878484

>>2878480 (me)

as a female i can somewhat understand the trans phobia emerging from cis women who have been raped/traumatized, but this trauma usually manifests itself as avoidance in PTSD and not discrimination. further, i can somewhat understand how terf conclusions see logically tenable at first, but just think about it for a moment. terf ideology is one of the most idpol ridden, idealist ideologies right now. what is more idealist than asserting that there can be a genderless utopia if gender is already fake?

moreover, trans people are usually conforming to the sort of sex/gender roles because they have to, because these roles ENSURE the perpetuation of capital. just look at bourgeois americans, who have to have a ruling class marriage pool availability navigated by specific gendered roles. which allows for the insularity. this is also true of the proletariat family unit (that gender roles as well as class structure its operation) & traditionally this very labor division (caregiver/provider) is inimicable to the education/development of the working class, especially women, women being how control of the labor population is maintained via access to forms of birth control. read engels and caliban and the witch and lise vogel already ffs. its not hard to draw marxist conclusions from trans politics. movement between or nonadherence to the gender you were born as can actually be beneficial. it doesnt matter if you see trans people as actually trans or not, thats just idealist to base your conclusions on disgust and half baked theory


 No.2878485

>>2878484

inimical* fuck


 No.2878801

>>2878480

>itt: brainlets who haven't actually read a word of feminist theory in their life

Don't you think feminist theorists have better things to do than talking all day about how to be nicer to angry transvestites?

>>2878480

>as a female i can somewhat understand the trans phobia emerging from cis women

Sí señor 🙄


 No.2878852

There's only 2 genders


 No.2878859

>>2878852

ketchup and mustard


 No.2878879

>>2878801

not an argument


 No.2878894

>>2878480

>brainlets who haven't actually read a word of feminist theory in their life

yeah because I’m busy reading Marx


 No.2879275

the name "idpol" is literally a fucking right wing meme used to silence leftist, and by repeating it you are helping them, but sure go on shitting on queer ppl and womens liberation, doing mental gimnastics to prove that it somehow makes you the leftiest of the left

another great victory for white straight working class dudes!


 No.2879925

>>2878894

thinking that there can't be a marxist analysis of womens issues (engels himself did) just shows how ignorant you are to secondary marxist literature, and/or just shows that you have absolutely no standing in any argument about women's issues


 No.2881042

>>2879275

Queer is a synonym for rapist. Queers all deserve to die in a gulag.


 No.2881046

>>2878484

Oh fuck off. You're defending a cult of rapist cosplayers intent on forcing others to copulate with their horrific frankenfuckholes.

https://archive.fo/3uxdu

The Guardian (amongst others) has images of surgical results if anyone doubts that they'd want to cry and perhaps vomit at the sight of at least some of those people naked.

You want to support a rape cult that wants to mutilate confused children, go right ahead. I shall support anyone who promises to make your life as miserable and short as possible.


 No.2881056

>>2879275

This, tbh

The only time I ever use the term "idpol" is as a rhetorical device when I'm arguing against reactionaries in bad faith

It isn't helpful as actual analysis


 No.2881598

Here's a decent and even-handed article (warning: wordwordswordswordswords): When Children Say They’re Trans by Jesse Singal

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/07/when-a-child-says-shes-trans/561749/


 No.2881606

File: 2d324c3f81f91e3⋯.png (186.92 KB, 512x512, 1:1, 1545327475624.png)

>>2867820

Imagine being such a worthless dredge on society that you unironically believe responsibility to be a bad thing.


 No.2881628

>>2861041

Based


 No.2881701

>>2861041

More people really need to understand the problem from this perspective.

Currently the only trans people who actually end up transitioning AND somewhat decently passing are usually middle class at least, usually upper. The media then portrays these people as "strong and brave" when in reality they got carried by their money and the real issues have therefore not been solved.


 No.2881965

>>2861041

>trans rights

lmfao, what rights do you lack that others don't?


 No.2882005

>>2881965

The right to spew misogynistic shit at women who dare ask for their own space.


 No.2882009

File: 38db59159014f51⋯.png (41.39 KB, 348x679, 348:679, Lily_idol.png)

>>2881965

the right to be a cute girl


 No.2882317


 No.2882380

>>2878480

>sex and gender are the same thing


 No.2882384

File: 1df8e57a9298ca1⋯.png (1.71 MB, 1242x1070, 621:535, you.png)


 No.2882385

File: 4dbe93995b49fdb⋯.jpg (92.97 KB, 640x723, 640:723, stfu_terf.jpg)


 No.2882386

>>2878301

yeah, it's disgusting and sadly seems to be the new state of leftypol


 No.2882387

File: 5ccf1bd602386b8⋯.jpg (119.63 KB, 750x1334, 375:667, TERF.jpg)

>>2882386

What is wrong with feminists wanting apartheid for themselves?


 No.2882389

>>2882387

the first and foremost problem with it is even enganing with this spectacle that doesnt even exist outside of extremely online twitter spaces. This tanike dude that said I don't care because what has to do with the material conditions dindu nuffin. But yeah watching them tearing themself apart is kinda funny


 No.2882415


 No.2882510

File: 0bab42d7dd907a1⋯.jpg (17.92 KB, 255x304, 255:304, opinion-organ.jpg)

>>2882387

Well that's anatomically wrong


 No.2882612

File: 0b431c79ceb76d4⋯.jpg (46.87 KB, 660x680, 33:34, taste.jpg)

>be repressing mtf

>go in parts of the internet dominated by opposing ideological groups to test my views

>go to /pol/

>wow these guys are mostly fucking stupid but on occasion see an argument from an effortposter that makes me rethink my exact position on something

>keep going there to occasionally "vaccinate" myself against reactionary ideology and formulate arguments against what they say even if I don't always post them

>go to /leftypol/

>turns me anti capitalist but still don't understand a lot of the positions some posters here have, can't really be assed to read a lot of the theory tbh, especially the parts that require understanding of more advanced philosophical work

>go to TERF or gender critical circles

>see a mix of stupid mean-spirited or dishonest arguments/mindsets toward trans people and some decent or good criticisms of the whole concept or our communities

>starting to experience cognitive dissonance between my old "libfem"ish ideas on gender/trans and some of the ideas I've encountered more recently

>trying to reconcile them with a more middle-ground position

>expressing middle ground positions seems to get me hated by both camps on the topic

>only feel like I can express this anonymously, just tell people what I figure they want to hear otherwise for the most part

I don't really have a point just wanted to post what my current experience has been and see if it sparks any comments.

also sidenote I'm glad this was contained to one thread. Was kind of annoyed that every week we'd have a trans topic thread for the same people to come out of the woodwork to armwrestle in with the same points, maybe this will be better.


 No.2882620

>>2882612

>also sidenote I'm glad this was contained to one thread. Was kind of annoyed that every week we'd have a trans topic thread for the same people to come out of the woodwork to armwrestle in with the same points, maybe this will be better.

Doubt it, given that there's an irreconcilable disagreement between the two camps; given an individual with psychosocial distress do you adjust the individual to fit society or vice versa.


 No.2882629

>>2882620

I would say it depends on what's being adjusted, and it's dependent on the specific circumstances around the individual and who's being affected as well as where they're both affected.


 No.2882636

Good afternoon, inmates of the IdPol Gulag.

>reminder that essentialism is reactionary, there is no "idea of a woman"

>reminder that racism and sexism are forms of Identity Politics

>reminder there will be no segregation


 No.2882669

>>2882636

Don't forget

>"Men" and "women" are not classes


 No.2882675

>>2882612

/pol/ is schizophrenia systematized, no bearing with reality at all. gender criticalists are devoid of materialist theory, and should be ignored. The so-called "LGBT community" is a consumerist shit-hole with very shitty liberal takes on everything. so, just do and say whatever the fuck you want. (just to clarify, the "LGBT community" does not encompass LGBT people, it's more of an imposed culture)

>>2882636

this, tbh. Don't understand why redditors are obsessed with spreading their shitty views in an unpopular foreskin restoration board.


 No.2882717

>>2879275

>go on shitting on queer ppl and womens liberation

Because women's lib is all about letting men with plastic wigs enter the women's bathroom so they can jack off while sucking on used tampons 🙄


 No.2882718


 No.2882761

So many radlibs ITT

>caring about feminism

lol feminism is unmarxist, get redpilled


 No.2882827

>>2882761

>feminism is unmarxist

why


 No.2882932

>>2882827

because feminism is about "women" as a class being oppressed by "men" as a class but neither of them are classes at all.


 No.2882963

>>2882629

That just moves the argument to endless contention about selection criteria as a proxy for the prior disagreement.


 No.2883567

File: 3d113aa57bb43e7⋯.png (1.27 MB, 762x726, 127:121, 1538582653978.png)

>>2878108

as jewel once sang, "who will save your souls if you wont save your own?" stop looking for saviors and heroes and worshiping figures real or imagined and face the music head on. only then can you start fixing your puerile life.

>>2878277

anorexia is anorexia nervosa and only anorexia nervosa.

>medical marijuana

legalize medical crack

>>2878480

trans people should know this, but most are locked in the

>>2878801

feminist theorists have and do talk about transgender women because they are women, but also because if they see transgender people as separate categories, they develop consistent theories as to why.

>>2878894

marxism isnt ideological, nor is it religion to be obeyed. dialectical materialism is a scientific analysis and critique of social structure and economy.

>>2881042

>>2881046

>>2882761

hey future gulag laborers. id love to read your "gender archipelago" comrades please seethe more.

>>2881598

singal is a fucking moron, dont post this stupid shit. guy thinks he has the same level of expertise as doctors- yet is just a hack journalist- and has many times over used distorted readings of studies or debunked research to make political points. singal is a capitalist shill gatekeeper who tries to play some cis savior line towards trans.

>>2881965

basic legal discrimination protections, like everyone else has. it'd also be far better for transgender outcomes and safety if informed consent models were available universally, since therapists aren't going to be cheap or free any time soon in the USA.

>>2882009

>>2882385

>>2882384

your posts are obfuscation, fuck off retards

>>2882389

while they do dominate their online spaces and have consistent presences (given that old guard feminists cant into web 2.0 or social media and prefer invision power boards and livejournals), they have had real world effects. the reagan era medical guidelines that cut back state paying for certain trans surgeries and HRT were penned based off of input from TERF janice raymond.

>>2882612

there is no room for repressors. you are a lumpen of even the lumpen. you can only be trans if you transition. its that simple.

>>2882620

the problem is society already though. look at where you are, what this board is fucking about… it is a mistake to try and conform so much of the individual to society when its literally easier and less taxing to efficiency to capitalize on what is held in common rather than constantly trying to haphazardly force disjunctive elements into homogeneous units. im pretty sure the actual objections of people here aren't that its irreconcilable, no, it's almost entirely phobia and ignorance veiled behind pseudo-intellectual pretensions.

>>2882675

>an imposed culture

absolutely agreed. the vapid culture imposed is meant to make LGBT seem unrevolutionary, passive, weak compared to outsiders, and at the same time threateningly degenerate as to be alien. it is a totally booj imposition for propagandas sake, saying loudly "we can sell to them because they are inferior and disarmed in all ways except buying power"

we are not so different you and i, or some other truism is apropos; the real difference is quite superficial and all the important details come from that superficial difference.


 No.2883568

File: a8ffa02cca551e8⋯.jpg (111.4 KB, 677x883, 677:883, TR-Farewell.jpg)

>>2883567

>>2878480

correction:

locked in the capitalist consumerist mindset because they think selfishness and conformity will keep them alive rather than radical rebellion against powers that be. sink or swim- survive or go extinct- mentality means getting mine while fucking others over. its easy to work on the fears and desperation of the most impressionable groups who have a history of being easy to use, exploit.


 No.2883575

>>2883567

>feminist theorists have and do talk about transgender women because they are women

What an intelligent post!

This message was brought to you by EM🙄JI GANG


 No.2883720

>>2882963

Couldn't you argue the same about many other necessary set of social rules or laws?


 No.2883726

File: a7fd6a417fea4ab⋯.jpg (90.25 KB, 880x480, 11:6, Change-My-Mind.jpg)

Gendercrit is akin to schools banning kids from the playground because one fell off the monkeybars and got hurt once, change my mind


 No.2883732

File: 9d8af53086094d1⋯.jpg (176.53 KB, 1200x900, 4:3, 1535512802160.jpg)

>>2883575

its easy to make people with very low intelligence angry, and your post is proof. when you understand nothing, everything is foreign and scary… "read a book" is a shitpost literally aimed at people like you who honestly should not be posting in threads that are out of your very shallow intellectual depth. hence why you seize on whatever hits your NPC wordfilter instead of replying to anything in such posts of greater substance.

for your winning this lottery of inanity, have a bait picture!


 No.2883737

File: 0223028c4b62b47⋯.png (69.14 KB, 272x404, 68:101, TERF_irl.png)

at this point transgender activists and radfems just talk past each other to stoke their respective fires, no one actually cares about the truth or helping people, its a superiority complex


 No.2883757

>>2883737

The problem is, whether or not the radfems are right, that any attempt to create a materialist analysis of gender is met with screams of "transphobia." Pretty much anything that isn't 100% validating is shut down.

As sex differences and the resulting division of labor was one of the things that gave birth to private property relations, having a coherent position on and deep understanding of the effects of gender socialization and the material conditions that gave rise to patriarchal society is important. Trans rights advocates generally make this difficult.


 No.2883783

It's much easier to have surgery to change your looks from Asian->Euro or vice versa (and with very believable results) than to do "gender affirming" surgery. That one of these surgeries is accepted in certain social circles that would see the other as weird seems to be a rather arbitrary social construct, like whether we drive on the left or right side of the road. But when many people around you do act like this, you better go with the flow or you'll get in trouble. In a parallel universe, people dare to say in public that traps are gay while they also celebrate Rachel Dolezal for being a brave transracial liberation activist.

>>2883732

>its easy to make people with very low intelligence angry, and your post is proof.

By making you angry?


 No.2883791

>>2883783

>no u: the post

that took a lot of thought for you didnt it

>rachel dolezal

genuinely deranged sentiments, thanks play-doh brain.

>>2883757

women had to consent to creating class society and thus had a hand in giving up power to make the same gendered system they argue against now. sex differences did not create the division of labor, for fucks sake how many times does engels have to come up while being distorted to make arguments in diametric opposition to what he actually wrote and the anthropological record? before patriarchal society gender roles were negligible, and you can see evidence for this in many aboriginal/native cultures where third genders and the like still exist in varying ways. sex roles are gender roles; gender roles are not innate division of labor.


 No.2883838

File: 4e71113dbc01a68⋯.png (334.61 KB, 540x540, 1:1, uwu.png)

>>2883757

But at the same time such reductionism isn't always helpful, and other lenses are more useful to deal with transgender specific topics. Both sides aren't necessarily in opposition to one another. Transwomen have male privilege, while at the same time deal with very unique issues that other males don't have, and transgender topics enlighten us on another understanding of gender that a rad-fem analysis misses out on. Its not that hard to admit that


 No.2883841

>>2883791

>before patriarchal society gender roles were negligible

Either you are implicitly defining patriarchal to mean any big difference in gender roles, in which case the statement is a dull tautology (=big differences in gender roles did not exist before coming into existence) or you don't know about matriarchal societies.

>and you can see evidence for this in many aboriginal/native cultures where third genders and the like still exist

They exist precisely because there are non-negligible gender roles, you silly pomo dork. The same roles are not available to all genders. You have to go through long rituals and get public affirmation. If it didn't matter, why would they even bother with doing that.


 No.2883864

>>2883838

They're drawn like children

Gaydeath is real, if you like this shit you will become straight again by your late 20s early 30s.

Real fags like big hairy men


 No.2883904

>>2883791

>women had to consent to creating class society

That seems like a spurious claim.


 No.2883915

>>2883864

this is as dumb as saying liking tomboys makes you gay,and REAL STRAIGHT MEN likes bimbos.

Also denies any kind of physical preference in partners,which is absolutely stupid.


 No.2883944

File: c6a5ba3fe7a112a⋯.gif (11.69 KB, 250x242, 125:121, 1554148388880.gif)

>>2883864

>people, even gays, are attracted to youthfulness

What a revelation!


 No.2883946

>>2883915

implying you can look neotenous/fem/androgynous past 25 without some sort of hormonal fuckery

You may not be miserable or angry about it but you will "grow out" of gay stuff unless you can completely accept masculine partners.


 No.2883953

File: c596e81956d92a3⋯.jpg (52.55 KB, 512x512, 1:1, c596e81956d92a3409b36c6c48….jpg)

>>2883946

There will always be pre 25 people.


 No.2883975

>>2883953

Well unless you kill yourself before your 25th birthday not the worst idea tbh you can't chase after under 25 twinks forever. Shit will get exhausting and I don't want to look or feel like a creep.


 No.2883980

>>2883864

>>2883946

Masculine men can be pretty adorable too.

It's more of an acquired taste tho.

Femboys are a gateway drug to homosexuality.


 No.2883984

File: e9a3f8a0dfdeb46⋯.jpg (87.54 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, e9a3f8a0dfdeb46c359883ba8e….jpg)

>>2883975

Imagine being this spooked.

>>2883980

You would have to be gay not to be attracted to femininity.


 No.2883997

>>2883984

>You would have to be gay not to be attracted to femininity.

I get that. Femboys slowly allow you to appreciate the feminine inherent to masculinity, causing a negation of the negation that sublates into a new sexuality that abandons the homo-heterosexual dichotomy while simultaneously incorporating it as moments inside of it.


 No.2884007

File: 5e124e89341643d⋯.png (260.78 KB, 1217x436, 1217:436, d4bb8c7ba63e83d069d1e6a5eb….png)

Sex is degenerаte and that includes your genderbender talk. You idiots need to quit thinking about sex and start thinking about theory, work, and progress. Reminder that all sex-addicts will be deported to gulags the very first week of actual revolution.


 No.2884017

>>2884007

>degenerаte

Degenerate from what? Are you a reactionary?


 No.2884020

>>2884007

How can I be addicted to something I never had? I do hope all sexhavers go to gulag tbh


 No.2884188

>>2883567

t. radlib tranny rapist


 No.2884348

File: 857ae3560361893⋯.jpg (60.54 KB, 733x550, 733:550, 1401336597314.jpg)

>>2883841

>you are implicitly defining patriarchal to mean any big difference in gender roles

strawman. patriarchy is a hierarchy of men over women. in a dialectical materialist analysis this is the general state of exploitation of female labor value (the kind of essentialist sex roles youre arguing are totes justified) for reproduction, child-rearing, and other "womanly" tasks. the critique given is that even while there are bourgeoisie women who are privileged and placed in hierarchy above proletarian women, women of power generally have no reason to challenge male dominance since for them it is of little concern, ie men over women getting free labor from women as a social rule only effects proles. powerful, wealthy, or legacies of such families have no major expectation to be female slave labor so have no need for feminist, let alone marxist labor emancipation.

>you don't know about matriarchal societies.

irrelevent to pre-class society. society was not matriarchal but matrilineal; the two are not interchangeable, and true matriarchy (whether it involves egalitarian society or not) is necessarily a later development. rule privileging one gender over another gender can only occur after that gender accumulates enough surplus resources to enforce their respective social order.

>They exist precisely because there are non-negligible gender roles

prove this. really, im asking you to cite any source that validates the gender spook as a real consequence of biology and not a social construction produced in the dialectical materialist schema of base and superstructure. show me how gender is innate and biological and justified and not ideological.

>pomo

ad hom, buzzword NPC script, and misrepresentation all in one, nice. "if i dont know about something its scary and wrong." gender is only rituals, because it is literally ideological and religious spookies lol. thats exactly why i cry in the shower every day thinking about the inane hatred that is just waiting around every corner to pop out. its why the moment someone even sees a tranny as a simulation of a woman they start rattling out their problems looking for a shoulder to cry on because they have been treated with kid gloves and given free emotional labor by women most of their lives.

>The same roles are not available to all genders.

the only limit on male behavior in pre-class society was that they couldn't breastfeed and couldn't give birth. wow, it really goes to show in a materialist way why women are supposed to be free child care machines! i kid, i kid. even the traditional depiction of matriarchy in scholarship treats it as totally egalitarian; it was not hierarchical but horizontal and proto-democratic. women hunted, men gathered and took care of children, and to that same effect, everyone did everything they were capable of. gender norms wouldve been a total net drain on society because it ritualized taboos of keeping some from working as many labor roles as possible, which is exactly the kind of privilege-disprivilege hierarchies that exist in class society. they are notably only efficient when they have control of enough surplus to enforce these taboos. if you want to claim these are inevitable developments and have causal, material reasons for them, you can't also treat them as innate. if they were innate they'd have simply been there forever.

>If it didn't matter, why would they even bother with doing that.

why did alternative genders exist at all if the innate roles are male and female only based in sex roles as engels described them? just because some kind of class based or patriarchal connotations and rituals exist now does not really remove the fact that their origin is in a society where sex roles were negligible. patriarchy is not the default state of humans; if you think it is, youre arguing with engels, not me.

>>2883904

see the beginning of my post. when class society began, the bourgeoisie class of women had to bargain away the power and egalitarian social roles of women in general to gain their class advantages. it wouldn't matter for them, however, because they would be married to or supported by the patriarchal rulers and thus would retain the surplus that allowed them to take power in the first place. the motive to create class society is privilege, and furthermore bourgeoisie women would enjoy comfort for their bargain; they wouldnt be subjected to slave labor like the rest of women.

>>2884188

hows it going having zero revolutionary potential you lumpenprole shitlord???


 No.2884391

>>2884348

>a real consequence of biology and not a social construction produced in the dialectical materialist schema of base and superstructure

this is your brain on idealism. things *just happen* for no reason, just ideas floating in space and then one day whoops we got gender how did that happen??!


 No.2884534

>>2884348

>>>and you can see evidence for this in many aboriginal/native cultures where third genders and the like still exist

>>They exist precisely because there are non-negligible gender roles, you silly pomo dork. The same roles are not available to all genders. You have to go through long rituals and get public affirmation. If it didn't matter, why would they even bother with doing that.

>prove this. really, im asking you to cite any source that validates the gender spook as a real consequence of biology and not a social construction

How would that be necessary for the argument being made? I also don't understand the crude separation between biology and social construction you seem to believe in. Social constructions can arise from other social constructions, but it isn't some completely autonomous plane of existence, with social constructions caused by social constructions all the way down.

>when class society began, the bourgeoisie class of women had to bargain away the power and egalitarian social roles of women in general

So it's all the women's fault, eh? And how do you think bargaining between male and female individual worked in a primitive society without police or courts? The bargaining positions might have something to do with… biology.


 No.2884605

>>2861527

sounds like even more technological Hitler but ok


 No.2884618

>>2883984

You're not gay, you just suck dick?


 No.2884619

>>2884348

>hows it going having zero revolutionary potential you lumpenprole shitlord???

Yeah, if the "revolution" is cosplaying as the opposite sex and cutting my cock off, I'm delighted you have found me wanting.


 No.2884622

https://janeclarejones.com/2018/12/08/ontological-totalitarianism-by-numbers/

Especially relevant for the trans activists here are points 15, 17, 20.


 No.2884646

>>2884622

thankfully after the revolution all trannies will go to gulag because plastic surgery to prevent emotional pain doesn't raise the third world out of poverty


 No.2884656

TERFs get the bullet first


 No.2884709

>>2884618

>>2884619

>>2884622

>>2884646

>>2884656

make socialists argue about trans…

the idea that changing language will have changes in reality is medieval superstition

if you can detect Dysphoria early enough that you can do pre-natal treatment, it can become economical. Growing the correct body in the first place is the most efficient and least medically invasive way.


 No.2884799

>>2884709

IF we spend resources on detecting dysphoria that will instead go to perfectly good gulag for class traitors, of which gender consumerists are one of the worst examples


 No.2884835

>>2884622

>>2884709

Can you refer to the points in the article you disagree with (numbered for convenience!) and say what makes you disagree with them?


 No.2884887

>>2884709

This assumes that the source of the dysphoria is biological. Were that universally true, we would not see such large numbers of children desist from trans identification on the completion of puberty. Nor would the number of adult detransistioners be climbing so rapidly. It's also worth noting that many of those adult detransistioners report sudden and spontaneous disappearance of their dysphoria.


 No.2885281

>>2884709

Why not just abolish gender roles in the first place?


 No.2885399

>>2884835

>Asking someone to use certain pronouns is a request that they perceive or recognise you in a certain way.

No it's asking that they use certain pronouns, they can think whatever they want so long as it doesn't result in discriminatory practices. This is bizarre

>Prescribing pronouns is a diktat that another person perceives or recognises you in a certain way.

>Prescribing pronouns and enforcing that prescription is an act of coercion which violates people’s freedom of conscience. This is ontological totalitarianism.

To put it in plain terms:

<totalitarianism is when I have to refer to people how they want me to because it hurts my fee fees

How is this any different from right wingers complaining about not being able to say nigger?

>Resisting coercion is not bullying.

A tautology which

>Ontological totalitarianism may well be bullying.

has no logical link to.

Just because they've redesigned the right wing free speech absolutism with the term "ontological totalitarianism" means they're actually making a new argument. Isn't it just as much "ontological totalitarianism" for this person to define people's genders and pronouns for them?


 No.2885401

>>2885399

there's nothing wrong with the word nigger or misgendering people unless you have a serious mental illness and require a torture chamber to function


 No.2885402

>>2885399

without freedom of speech socialism would be totally outlawed. Once again, angry trannies are just capitalist infiltrators trying to destroy the proletariat with gender consumerism.


 No.2885403

>>2885401

k

>>2885402

So transgender workers are counterrevolutionary but some random academic feminist's wordpress blog which makes no mention whatsoever of capitalism is the revolutionary vanguard? Very cool. She's not even a Marxist, btw, her writing is on postmodernism.


 No.2885441

>>2885399

>>Asking someone to use certain pronouns is a request that they perceive or recognise you in a certain way.

>No it's asking that they use certain pronouns, they can think whatever they want so long as it doesn't result in discriminatory practices. This is bizarre

>>2885403

>She's not even a Marxist

But what if she defines herself as one? Suppose she does. Is it too much to refer to her as a Marxist then? After all you can still think what you want. How about "leading Marxist theorist"? Suppose her next blog entry is about "detoxing" your body with bleach and she says she's a leading Marxist theorist and that the recommendation follows from big-brained thinking about the theories of Marx? Do you then criticize her by saying that you are against the proposal of a leading Marxist theorist? What if she updates her personal pronoun to leading Marxist theorist with a sensible proposal about drinking bleach?


 No.2885553

>>2884799

> gulag for class traitors

Maintaining a prison system for that seems to too expensive, there's just too many opportunistic careerist people, besides it's a much greater punishment if you use them to build socialism.

>gender consumerists

can you explain the consumerism aspect.

>>2884835

>Can you refer to the points in the article you disagree with (numbered for convenience!) and say what makes you disagree with them?

I can't bothered to go over the entire article, but I will adresse point 27 "Narcissistic entitlement is the opposite of mutual recognition."

I would consider having billions of dollars to qualify as narcissistic entitlement, and the opposite of that is not mutual recognition but rather reversal of the expropriation of labour. The billionaire will happily recognize what ever identity you want as long as it can keep the control over the expropriated surplus.

Consider this as example to show the difference between changing language and changing reality.

>>2884887

>This assumes that the source of the dysphoria is biological.

Yes, it seems reasonable there's tiny number of people that have this, and the alternatives are environmental factors, that somehow manage to only selectively affect certain people.

>Were that universally true, we would not see such large numbers of children desist from trans identification on the completion of puberty. Nor would the number of adult detransistioners be climbing so rapidly.

To be honest i don't understand what you mean by this, but it seems like a church complaining about loosing members. (the reason i likened this to a church is, because the gender theorists sound alike to: "As a Christian I'm going to explain to you all your sins." )

>It's also worth noting that many of those adult detransistioners report sudden and spontaneous disappearance of their dysphoria.

I don't know, there isn't a materialist conception of this, all the people that tried a materialist analysis got labled a transphobe and banished or burned on the stake for practising which-craft.

>>2885281

>Why not just abolish gender roles in the first place?

It's hard to do when you have 2 different social conservativisms fighting against you. You know the traditional kind and the LGBTQ+ kind. You can recognize social conservatism by language policing as well as allegiance to special interests, in exchange for resources for doing the conserving. You kind need a class-less society first.

>without freedom of speech socialism would be totally outlawed. Once again, angry trannies are just capitalist infiltrators trying to destroy the proletariat with gender consumerism.

Socialism is effectively outlawed, if workers wanted to reclaim their surplus they had expropriated from them, they would run into a lot of legal barriers. And freedom of speech is becoming a formal freedom only, the free-speech debate was only relevant as long as there was some amount of information scarcity, ie the days where only a few newspapers or few tv channels were the main information pathways, basically before the attention of people was oversaturated . Nowadays, the content is becoming irrelevant. If you wanted to spread class conciseness online today, you have to create a social media platform whose algorithms, promote information that leads to class conciseness. If you wanted to have proper Marxist theory, you would make a website that allowed for system-discourse, which requires filtering out emotional-undertones to not be derailed.

Obviously you are right in terms of identitarian self-referential politics being cancer (and trans people seem to be particularly prone to this), consider that the internet was promoting very different things when people were largely anonymous (at least to each other). Also keep in mind that capitalism has commodified the culture-war and every topic where people fight fuels the attention economy. Stop fighting/fuelling the identities and start fightingfueling the class-conciousness.


 No.2885554

>>2885403

>So transgender workers are counterrevolutionary but some random academic feminist's wordpress blog which makes no mention whatsoever of capitalism is the revolutionary vanguard? Very cool. She's not even a Marxist, btw, her writing is on postmodernism.

The fact of the matter is that the economic left got betrayed on every turn by the "societal-issue" left. Just look at the feminist movement at the time When only men were "breadwinners", capitalism only had half the labour force, which benefited bargaining power for workers, when women fought for their economic independence they didn't also fight for halving the workday to maintain this bargaining power, they instead made a Faustian bargain with the capitalist class where they bought social progress with economic regression. All subsequent social movement followed a similar bargain. Harming the interests of the working class is reactionary. The identity movements are fighting for labour aristocracy privileges, and you can see this in online spaces where they ruthlessly purge threats to these privileges. What makes this counter revolutionary is that's careerism. The material interest of a transgender worker is treatment for disphoria and class war on behalf of the workers.


 No.2885566

>>2885441

>what if she changes her pronoun to "leading Marxist theorist"?

well you respect her gender because that is totally a gender. just like le apache helicopter gender.

fucking retard.


 No.2885573

>>2885566

Would you mind making an actual argument? If one thinks gender is something innate you are born with, and also that one shouldn't expect of others that there is any correlation whatsoever between what they say and what they actually think and not be bothered by that ("they can think whatever they want"), and then also police the words people use and be very offended by people "failing" to use the "right" words… that's a contradictory position, don't you think?

What they really want is that you think about them in a certain way and to achieve that they ask you to brainwash yourself by speaking in an upside-down way about reality. This is cult101.


 No.2885640

>>2885553

>To be honest i don't understand what you mean by this, but it seems like a church complaining about loosing members. (the reason i likened this to a church is, because the gender theorists sound alike to: "As a Christian I'm going to explain to you all your sins.")

It's very easy to explain. If the source of the dysphoria of everyone who claims to be trans is biological, the number of desisters and detransitioners would be near zero. Birth defects such as cleft palates and deformed limbs do not mysteriously vanish. So: for at least SOME of the trans population the "neurological birth defect" narrative does not apply. Something else is going on.


 No.2885642

>>2885640

>If the source of the dysphoria of everyone who claims to be trans is biological, the number of desisters and detransitioners would be near zero

why tho


 No.2885643

>>2885399

Dictating what words others use to address you is to assert your power over them.


 No.2885644

>>2884017

Degenerated from the ideal tbh


 No.2885645

>>2884887

>This assumes that the source of the dysphoria is biological. Were that universally true, we would not see such large numbers of children desist from trans identification on the completion of puberty.

Unless the biological root of dysphoria is affected by puberty.

>Nor would the number of adult detransistioners be climbing so rapidly.

Can I get some numbers for that? As far as I'm aware the numbers are still very low.


 No.2885681

>>2885643

Strange how these "anti-idpol Marxists" end up repeating postmodern and poststructural stuff. So am I oppressed because other people force me to speak English? Cis people have expectations about being addressed as well, you know, trans people didn't invent these words.

>>2885554

>When only men were "breadwinners", capitalism only had half the labour force, which benefited bargaining power for workers, when women fought for their economic independence they didn't also fight for halving the workday to maintain this bargaining power, they instead made a Faustian bargain with the capitalist class where they bought social progress with economic regression

This isn't what happened at all, wtf are you talking about? Purchasing power declined, the expansion of the work day hit its upper limit and so women had to enter the workforce to make up the difference. Feminists didn't betray the working class, this is right wing retardation.

>>2885441

>what if she insists on being called a Marxist without being one

For one thing, people already do this exact thing, see Jacobin and socdems in general. (And probably you as well.) Also, being or not being a Marxist isn't a category with serious legal ramifications. And most importantly, this argument takes its conclusion as its premise, which is that trans women are claiming to be something they are not. If you're defining womanhood entirely by genitals or biology then you're not a Marxist - Marxism is a concrete analysis of a concrete situation and genitals do not factor in to 99% of social interactions, and to talk exclusively of biology is to make the Darwinist mistake of ignoring social relations as they constitute themselves outside of our bodies.


 No.2885773

>>2885645

More likely that the usual teenage discomfort with a rapidly changing body is being conflated with "dysphoria" in teenagers. Any honest observer would have noted the emergence of communities and media focused on detransition. Such things are easy to find now, which is in and of itself telling.


 No.2885793

>>2885640

>It's very easy to explain. If the source of the dysphoria of everyone who claims to be trans is biological, the number of desisters and detransitioners would be near zero.

There could be 2 different groups, with similar symptoms but different origins.

>>2885681

>This isn't what happened at all, wtf are you talking about? Purchasing power declined, the expansion of the work day hit its upper limit and so women had to enter the workforce to make up the difference. Feminists didn't betray the working class, this is right wing retardation.

I'm talking about third wave feminism, are you denying that a increased labor supply is reducing bargaining power of workers ?


 No.2885799

>>2885681

>this argument takes its conclusion as its premise, which is that trans women are claiming to be something they are not

But what if you only interpret the argument that way because you project your own self-doubt unto others, Comrade Girldick? A premise that trans women objectively aren't women isn't needed, it's enough that they aren't women in the opinion of people who don't want to address them as women. Forcing these people then into giving "validation" is degrading for them and a hollow victory for trans activists. What are words of agreement and sympathy good for when they happen under coercion? What's the practical difference between making up things I never said and forcing me to say words others made up for me? A statement without choice means nothing (just like filming the statement of a porn actress that she likes what she is doing and claiming that proves anything when she has no other way to pay rent), and now that trans stuff is getting more mainstream, words that used to express real empathy are becoming drops in an ocean of slick PR speech. Good job!


 No.2885802

>>2885799

>Forcing these people then into giving "validation" is degrading for them and a hollow victory for trans activists

You think trans people and their advocates are in it just for validation?

>this argument takes its conclusion as its premise, which is that trans women are claiming to be something they are not

>But what if you only interpret the argument that way because you project your own self-doubt unto others, Comrade Girldick?

That's not an interpretation of your argument, that is the only way that argument functions. Sorry you have to act like a child, I'm not even trans


 No.2885803

>>2885799

Nice copes and seething gaslighting, /pol/.


 No.2885811

>>2885802

>I'm not even trans

post bobs and vagene


 No.2885821

>>2885681

I prefer a definition of man and woman grounded in biology rather than the spooks in someone else's head


 No.2885859

>>2885821

your reification of genitals is a spook itself


 No.2885878

>>2885859

>biology is a spook

>but gender isn’t

???


 No.2885885

>>2885859

>it's all spooks :^)

I say to myself as I hammer a nail through my dick


 No.2885898

>>2885878

the significance of genitals over social relations is pure personal opinion, gender isn't just some spook because it does have material consequences in people's lives.

>>2885885

Might as well if you can't see the obvious contradictions >>2865998 and >>2866000 and >>2878480 pointed out.


 No.2885900

>capitalism has advanced to a point where it even commodifies gender thanks to money hungry plastic surgeons and unscrupulous pharmaceutical companies trying to make a dollar selling you the hormones of the opposite sex

you poor bastards…you're victims of the most vile and unrestrained form of Jewish capitalism and you don't even know it

under communism you will be pumped with all the antipsychotics you all so desperately need for free and any plastic surgeon that attempts to make a dollar off by mutilating your genitals will be sent to gulag


 No.2886662

>>2885793

>There could be 2 different groups, with similar symptoms but different origins.

No shit, sherlock.


 No.2886665

File: bc0689d5a8c238d⋯.jpg (38.66 KB, 224x423, 224:423, fritzlol.jpg)

>>2885898

>the significance of genitals over social relations is pure personal opinion

How is babby formed?


 No.2886742

>>2886665

How are my genitals supposed to enter into relations with someone else's without me first entering into social relations with that person?


 No.2887099

>>2885898

>the significance of genitals over social relations is pure personal opinion

I say as the wind plays a melody on the instrument of my perforated penis to the astonished kids on the playground.


 No.2887119

>>2885900

>under communism you will be pumped with all the antipsychotics you all so desperately need for free and any plastic surgeon that attempts to make a dollar off by mutilating your genitals will be sent to gulag

Not even gonna lie, unironically based. If only you weren't a retarded nazi who is pretending that all communists are trannies.


 No.2887130

>>2885900

Based praxis coming from a nazi?


 No.2887313

>>2885898

I don't get this,are you saying genitals does not matter but gender does ? what ? what does that even mean,if both didn't matter I would have understood,but I don't get why gender does somehow,when physical appearance can betray your gender,especially if you did hormones or shit like that.


 No.2892205

Trans Rights Activists are a rape cult


 No.2892216

>>2886742

>How are my genitals supposed to enter into relations with someone else's without me first entering into social relations with that person?

Sperm + Egg = Baby


 No.2892223

File: 732af3702e032d6⋯.jpg (368.9 KB, 1198x1200, 599:600, kf4v2drtdmx01[1].jpg)

File: 62ec48780ac232d⋯.jpg (77.13 KB, 1800x854, 900:427, EGGS.jpg)

>>2892216

Egg? Don't you mean two eggs?


 No.2893011

File: e2f05da47773a43⋯.jpg (133.49 KB, 850x781, 850:781, 1554423647099.jpg)

ITT people who unironically believe calling each other incels is an argument.


 No.2893036

File: 79391cee918d9f4⋯.jpg (24.54 KB, 540x167, 540:167, 1464474210574.jpg)

>>2893011

go back to /leftytrash/


 No.2893040

>>2893011

I agree, it's very Reddit tier. Like how many genuine incels are there. Maybe 1% of the population at most.

Remember an incel is someone no one will sleep with. Even losers can get with fat single moms.


 No.2893042

>>2893040

>anyone can get a job, you just don't want to

The reality is that for any adult age there are a lot more male virgins than female, which is proof of the existence of effective harems.


 No.2893045

>>2885885

>I say to myself as I hammer a nail through my dick

You sound like one of those retards that thinks kicking a rock defeats George Berkeley's immaterialism.

Also, what influence does Idealism have on Gender Theory?


 No.2893055

>>2893040

It’s not just about sex. Incels are upset because they have no relationships with women. They have no female contact. It’s a loneliness problem, not a sexlessness problem.


 No.2893068

>>2893045

I prefer kicking the shins of the anti-materialist, hon.


 No.2893140

>>2892223

Chromosome count and structure isn't really how we class sexes in biology. The strictest definition is only whether or not an individual has ovaries or testicles.


 No.2893155

>>2892223

>Sex=Gender

Look, I have my own reservations about transgenderism, but this is incorrect. When people talk about sex they are discussing biology, and when discussing "gender" are generally discussing the cultural idea of what constitutes what a woman or man "is". As in, what is "manly" or "womanly" and what cultural aspects encapsulate a man or woman. The proper argument to have here is that gender as concept isn't real and does not exist outside of being another "spook". Sex is real, but gender is a made up thing. There is no "essence" that makes up a proper man or woman, you can't "feel" like a man or a woman. You just are, even if you're a guy who just likes the "feminine" aesthetic.


 No.2893963

Trans people such as Blaire White and Comrade Natalie are fine.

Trans Activists such as Zinnia Jones and notCursedE are lying rapist scum who need their throats cut.


 No.2893965

There's no such thing as trans people, only people who think they're trans. Transgenderism is just another manifestation of the grass-is-always-greener syndrome that bitter losers always fall for. They're just like the people who are always converting to different religions. They think that the problems in their lives are caused by an internal issue of identity, rather than an external issue of living conditions.


 No.2893973

File: 03c755e08098d04⋯.gif (47.64 KB, 900x300, 3:1, PBF020-Skub[1].gif)

>>2893963

gotta be bait. fuck that caveman brow alt right hon blaire white.

who are the other ones, zinnia? notcursede? natalie is petit booj but videos are well lit.

>>2893140

it's cartoon lions man… i didnt make it i posted it to be snarky. sex is socially constructed/loaded as much as gender, but at least scientific "sex" has absolutely real elements that can be discussed objectively unlike gender which is entirely jury rigged abstractions that don't even maintain relevance or utility from one region to the next. sex has ideological components that deserve critique. im not the most knowledgeable about it, myself. i do know that ovaries arent eggs which puts me ahead of one deviantart furry retard.

>>2893155

>I have my own reservations about transgenderism

why do cissies think this thread is their own livejournal i'll never understand it; if you've got your piece to say, say it. make it coherent and i'll take the bait. i have so far in this shitpost laden noxious fart cloud of a thread.

>incorrect.

did the cartoon deviantart lions give it away, watson? or the "women have two eggs" strangeness? the maker of it is obviously very ignorant of biology.

>the rest of your post

A- for your effort. gender being a spook doesn't mean gender challenged retards like myself are somehow cured of our issues by some grand realization. the grand illusion remains powerful even when you peek behind the curtain. there are people who are very attached to their favorite color, yet it's a totally banal preference and arbitrary despite being potent and ingrained. people who bitch about trannies are like arguing about pro-skub or anti-skub

>>2893965

what adorable gaslighting… it's all just hysteria, you're just so much more real than everyone else with your nothing identity critical of anyone else being happy and shit. you know better than anyone else and are super qualified to comment. feels < reals, my guy! shadilay! pray tell, do you iron it often? your big manly smooth brain?


 No.2893983

>>2893973

>cissies

>unironicaly using that term

Are you a tranny, a retard, or both?


 No.2894005

>>2893973

>gender being a spook doesn't mean gender challenged retards like myself are somehow cured of our issues by some grand realization

Every detransitioner says the exact opposite. Like ALL of them. They all say that they realised they were modifying their bodies to conform with arbitrary psychosocial stereotypes.


 No.2894024

i think natural language hasn't fully transitioned from viewing gender and sex as synonymous and so the claim that transwomen are women is seen as trying to sneak in the back door that they are biological women. there is some sense in which calling a transwoman a woman is lying because of the implicit meanings of the word woman. i saw some youtube videos on this subject by contrapoints and other lefties expecting to be given some fully fleshed out ontology of gender and sex that made sense out of everything but all i got was some bullshit about how people shouldn't prove they exist.


 No.2894075

>>2893983

i could ask the same. are you unironically getting mad about it, kiddo?

>>2894005

>Every detransitioner says the exact opposite

long term success in transition is related to intensity of dysphoria and which GID symptoms are most intense.

that said, most detransitioners do so because of one common reason, not having severe dysphoria… and in this they make no attempt to rebut that they are not transgender (GID) but are just "gender nonconforming." your attempt at making a point is moot just on that grounds alone. people who don't want to ruin their life would be retarded to ask for this retarded disorder. it is mostly a burden and interferes with having a decent life, which is exactly why dabblers who want to look femme will try it out like its a fashion then quit when it gets too difficult. us retards… we dont quit because in this difficulty we have our symptoms lessened. the social consequences don't outweigh the desire; that is what the dysphoria is.

>Like ALL of them. They all say that they realised they were modifying their bodies to conform with arbitrary psychosocial stereotypes.

isn't the mass agreement suspicious haha? i guess you didn't apply your capacity to critique to their groupthink did you?

is it any surprise that a bunch of people who align with TERFs would repeat their arguments? isn't also convenient especially since they are often just gender nonconforming like TERFs prefer and not severe GID cases?

okay, so how about this: do detransitioners seem like especially happy and successful transgender people? if you accept that they are transgender, they are most certainly maladjusted repressors of a forgone desire, and as the goal is "transition" are they not failures on that criteria? i would think bitterness comes with failure. many of them are obsessed with impractical outcomes like absolute passing; they want to be safe and cut off from the consequences of their social presentation. there is no safety in being a socially disdained ugly fucking tranny (what a radical notion!). if you don't think transgender people exist, sure you can cherry pick the failures as proof, but there are more transgender people with opposing views that you have to ignore in choosing to only focus on detransitioners.

personally, i think people who have no dysphoria of course realize they will not pass, get scared of that, and then desist. they arent transgender by virtue of that simple truth: if you transition for a handful of purely social reasons like having sex with "straight men" you're not transgender. though, i think people like that are a small minority among an already tiny minority who fold their other issues into trans like they're solving for x with little insight. it's a theme in trans communities that there's a lot of crossover when you're already a tranny with other junk mental diseases. if you have an overwhelming, long term, and persistent desire to be the opposite sex and live out their gender role in society you have GID. if you don't want that, you're not GID, don't have dysphoria.

finally, if you don't trust one group of trannies self-reporting, why do detransitioners suddenly have great "realisations?" keep in mind you're ignoring the consensus of the majority in favor of a minority dissenting group, not to mention one that seperates itself entirely from the main population. they are just as deluded if they are transgender, too. you don't get to have it both ways where being trans is deluded and detransitioning is a more enlightened path of some kind. that they ever entertained the idea makes them forever cut off from self awareness.

i can definitely agree with this theoretical sentiment since i think detrans and average post-transition trannies are quite deluded; detrans/repression is just as self destructive as many other pathetic justifications trans come up with.

>>2894024

contra gets bogged down in debating intricacies of spurious rhetoric and then plays into their game. it'd be better if people took a judith butler line and just said "trans people exist so they deserve to be allowed to live that experience authentically." anything else is just some lame authoritarian shit. i dont believe in the push for "transwomen are women" lines when theres people losing jobs and housing.

they cant see the irony of being "free" to be called "she" or "he" and use certain bathrooms but also "free" to be unemployed and homeless too. free to shoot up in the target bathroom of your legal gender!

this pretend nice capitalist ideology is gonna get us all killed


 No.2894104

>>2894075

Dysphoria is completely unrelated to "being Trans". Trans Activists themselves state this. Attempting to assert that that the agreement of detransitioners is somehow dubious shows just how desperate you are; the same argument is applicable to trannies themselves.


 No.2894135

pretty interesting how they found a reason trannies were bad as soon as trannyness started infringing on female privilege

of course it's only the "trenders"/people who get off on it though

as in any of the ones who are actually into it enough to put the kind of effort in to where they actually look halfway decent

if you just want to be a faggy male or a soup sandwich manly crossdresser who makes people puke, thats totally fine

because it doesn't divert any attention from women

and if you get a fraction of the unconditional love and lust that women get, and you decide you like it, you're being "manipulated"

lmao


 No.2894150

>>2894075

>detransitioners were never trans in the first place

My god, your retarted. Trans people have this mental compulsion to look like the opposite sex. Detransitioners have just realized that it’s in their self interest to just ignore this than to mutilate their body.


 No.2894327

>>2893963

I'm not familiar with the last two you mention.

>>2893973

>hon blaire

"Hon" is slang that comes from the more feminine looking mtfs mocking mtfs who are particularly mannish. Doesn't fit here.

>natalie

The other poster is referring to the person going by "Comrade Natalie". Different person than the one you think about.

>>2894075

>it'd be better if people took a judith butler line

https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2017/08/26/the-desire-for-a-convergence-of-heterosexuality/

>>2894135

I think both TERFs and anti-TERFs can agree

that you should transition

to

Reddit.


 No.2894383

File: 2875bb12b6ea246⋯.png (523.04 KB, 558x834, 93:139, 1534362757071[1].png)

>>2894104

are you implying i am a "trans activist" and not just a dirty faggot communist tranny? most trans activists don't read much feminist lit, let alone marxist lit. i don't advocate for trans shit; clearly you constructed a strawman of me based off of not reading my posts fully… replying to a post where i delineated disdain for mainstream trans advocacy in favor of material improvement of conditions for trans people. the capitalists can only generate so much manufactured consent in order to commodify trans bodies. end of the day, i know most of people are like you all angry repliers, phobic and angry that we exist, wishing that our supposedly butchered and medically oppressed kind were gone, dead, no need to think about it anymore. we are real people, and our needs as humans are direct and vital.

>the agreement of detransitioners is somehow dubious

this is not a refutation of my rebuttal, just you handwaving away the objection to your claim without any further qualification of what you claimed. you're making a nothing claim with no evidence and no effort. you asserted it was true, it is your job to qualify it. you aren't any expert; you can't act as though your claim should go unchallenged or demand i allow you to act as though you are an authority who must be blithely obeyed.

>>2894150

>you're*

>Trans people have this mental compulsion to look like the opposite sex.

that's dysphoria. that is one of the symptoms of GID, like i already explained.

>Detransitioners have just realized that it’s in their self interest to just ignore this than to mutilate their body.

how does your argument refute me saying the exact same thing but with more nuance? you can't pretend to be transgender long without eventually having to weigh your self interest. can you explain why most transgender people don't detransition at all yet do not visibly pass as the sex they transitioned into? your entire way of thinking is nothing more than injecting your own assumptions and revising the narratives of people you don't even care enough to pay attention to the nuance of.

>>2894327

>"Hon" is slang that comes from the more feminine looking mtfs mocking mtfs who are particularly mannish. Doesn't fit here.

are you some kind of tranny chaser, lol? she looks like cro-magnon steven tyler smh..

yeah and i don't know who those other people are! sorry! youtube celebs are trash generally and trans ones are not far off. i don't consume this stuff regularly so theres blaire and then theres contra, and that's the extent of ones i can tolerate knowing about. two words for them, "groan zone"

>https://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2017/08/26/the-desire-for-a-convergence-of-heterosexuality/

another non-argument? wow, you guys…

cockshott hasn't read butler and that's quite precisely why he thinks things based around childish, jordan peterson tier "it sounds too academic so its nonsense" rhetoric. i also don't think you see the irony that this thread was begun because myself and a few others criticized cockshott's defense of TERFs/gender critical actors. that fork of feminism is revisionist and ignores many of the early radical feminist writers of the second wave having creative arguments the place of transgender people in their theory.


 No.2894388

>>2894383

>ignores many of the early radical feminist writers of the second wave having creative arguments that establish a place for transgender people in their theory.

correction of that last bit


 No.2894468

>>2894383

You are a trans activist, Judith Butler IS trans shit. Radlib be gone.


 No.2894506


 No.2894556

>>2894150

No true trans-scotsman would detransition, after all. Of course, if you ask how anyone is supposed to tell the difference between the two beforehand the transactivists have a tantrum.


 No.2894658

File: ca473210f1cbb4e⋯.jpg (30.74 KB, 821x245, 821:245, 1557150726444.jpg)

>>2894468

>you read feminist lit

>you're a radlib!!! reee

>read a business journal

>you're a capitalist!!! reee

>you read mein kampf

>you're /leftypol/!!! reee

>>2894506

so? i've read those before. it only becomes more obvious that he hasn't read butler when you read his critique of her. it's one long strawman of a butler that doesn't exist, and he even admits it himself lmfao.

>Perhaps this is why so many readers are able to project whatever they want onto her works, including Gender Trouble.

>>2894556

they are plainly moronic. they want to shore up numbers by letting non-GID people join in with calling themselves transgender. its a booj trick to dilute whatever bargaining power trans have among a bunch of nontrans interlopers who don't comprehend trans struggles. it won't produce anything good because nonconformist gender fashion types dont have material necessity involved. they can undo a wardrobe change. im sure there are a few detransitioners that are genuine GID cases, but they are so because of material conditions. ultimately a forcible detrans is a death sentence. ah but trans feelings have no weight here. this is no feelings allowed land.


 No.2894873

>>2894383

>how does your argument refute me saying the exact same thing but with more nuance? you can't pretend to be transgender long without eventually having to weigh your self interest. can you explain why most transgender people don't detransition at all yet do not visibly pass as the sex they transitioned into? your entire way of thinking is nothing more than injecting your own assumptions and revising the narratives of people you don't even care enough to pay attention to the nuance of.

Being trans is a mental disorder because it causes people to do a bunch of bad shit to their body, that has no benefit outside of their mind.

>>2894658

>don't comprehend trans struggles

>trans struggles

What the struggle to cut your dick off?

>get thrown out of the ladies bathroom

>why don’t women want to see penis in their bathroom

real shocker


 No.2894877

>>2894658

>i've read those before

You did not and you still haven't.

>obvious that he hasn't read butler

Strangely he somehow manages to quote from her writing several times.




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