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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

A collective of people engaged in pretty much what the name suggests
Winner of the 77nd Attention-Hungry Games
/x/ - Paranormal Phenomena and The RCP Authority

April 2019 - 8chan Transparency Report
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Tags: leftism (CLICK HERE FOR MORE LEFTIST 8CHAN BOARDS), politics, activism, news

File: 93631209d20aa6d⋯.jpg (74.49 KB, 350x349, 350:349, Kavlov.jpg)

 No.2865112

Why do people say that "we just don't know how a communist society would look like", isn't this the biggest drawback of the communist movement?

Unless we have a concrete vision of what we want to achieve and how it would look like every revolution will eventually fail because people's lives can't be put to a standstill until we can figure out how to do shit and I'd we cant envision it now theres no way we can do it when Peoples lives are at stake

I think the best possible scenario is that communists start forming independent communes and start dealing with each other with mutual aid and have a no money no work society right now, no direct violence against the state but if the commune is attacked only self defence

If you think this is idealism I would like to know why and what do you think isnt an idealist way of combating capitalism and the state

Also MLs and other party socialist news not reply

 No.2865115

you can't predict the future


 No.2865120

File: 9e961cc4108a8d0⋯.png (1.59 MB, 1024x1024, 1:1, 1427647269991-1.png)

>>2865112

>Why do people say that "we just don't know how a communist society would look like",

People say that because we don't know. We can speculate but thats it.

>isn't this the biggest drawback of the communist movement?

If Marx's view of history is correct, communism is inevitable, why would "draw backs" matter?

>Unless we have a concrete vision of what we want to achieve and how it would look like every revolution will eventually fail because people's lives can't be put to a standstill until we can figure out how to do shit and I'd we cant envision it now theres no way we can do it when Peoples lives are at stake

This is where theory comes in. Lenin did the best job while others are honorable mentions but their focus was how do overthrow capitalism not writing Marxist utopian fanfic

>I think the best possible scenario is that communists start forming independent communes and start dealing with each other with mutual aid and have a no money no work society right now, no direct violence against the state but if the commune is attacked only self defence

the problem is this is not sustainable under capitalism.

However you can research communes in China post revolution.

Setting an example of how things should be in a transitory period where capitalism isn't there to undermine you isn't a bad idea.

>If you think this is idealism I would like to know why and what do you think isnt an idealist way of combating capitalism and the state

Lenin: state and revolution

>Also MLs and other party socialist news not reply

then who do you want to reply?


 No.2865123

>>286512

>People say that because we don't know. We can speculate but thats it.

But how can we not know like we have the tools to know, we can use economics,psychology,sociology and other tools to determine how a communist society would function

>If Marx's view of history is correct, communism is inevitable, why would "draw backs" matter?

I think Marx was wrong on this

>This is where theory comes in. Lenin did the best job while others are honorable mentions but their focus was how do overthrow capitalism not writing Marxist utopian fanfic

Lenin didn't understand Marx or the idea of communism and pushed the communist movement back hundreds of years

>the problem is this is not sustainable under capitalism.

Yes,I'm saying we should escape capitalism by not interacting with capitalist institutions and working within communes only

>Lenin: state and revolution

Again,I think we should leave Lenin and move forward, his ideas were a failure

>>Also MLs and other party socialist news not reply

>then who do you want to reply?

>mainly anarchists and leftcoms because MLs and party/state socialists are hopelessly dogmatic


 No.2865125

>>2865123

>MLs and party/state socialists are hopelessly dogmatic

>If you think this is idealism I would like to know why and what do you think isnt an idealist way of combating capitalism and the state

Only Marxists have the non-idealist way of combating capitalist yet you do not want them to reply. Compared to the achievements of Marxism, what does anarchism even has to offer?


 No.2865136

>>2865115

>you can't predict the future

yeah you can. that's the point of science and scientific marxism.

>>2865112

>Why do people say that "we just don't know how a communist society would look like", isn't this the biggest drawback of the communist movement?

Because they haven't read Marx. Critique of the Gotha Program is not the only place Marx explained how socialism/communism would work. Capital Vol 2 actually explains it in technical terms by way of comparison to capitalism. The "socialized mode of production" cuts out key parts of the circuit of capital at every level of the economy and replaces it with scientific planning. Marx explicitly says what parts are removed (eg, exchange between producers of means of production, money is replaced with labor tokens, bourgeoisie are replaced with the masses, profit replaced by general surplus, production of luxury goods is eliminated in the sense that luxury goods are goods not affordable to workers, growth no longer becomes a hard requirement, etc).

We also have historical precedent now. If you want to know what socialism will look like generally, just look at existing and past socialist societies, but allow for changes caused by birth-pangs from modern capitalism, improvements via technology, and crisis management due to global warming.

ALSO, in terms of the superstructure and culture of communism, we have a very good idea of how it will be. Not just from existing socialism, but we can also get clues from primitive communism. People in the stage of primitive communism did not engage in division of labor as we know it today. They were extremely proud, upright, and complete people (think of Native Americans prior to colonization) due to the equality and freedom they had. Democracy was in one sense pure in primitive communism, and in another sense democracy is an inadequate way to describe the power people had in primitive communism. Primitive communism also emphasizes humanity and nature as the primary dialectic– it is a mode of production that recognizes man's place in nature and relationship to it.


 No.2865148

>>2865136

>yeah you can. that's the point of science and scientific marxism.

I came here to laugh at you.


 No.2865149

>>2865148

By "that's the point of science and scientific marxism [to predict the future]" they probably meant that the contradictions inherent to capitalism will necessary lead to its collapse. They did not mean "prediction" as in predicting that capitalism will collapse on such and such date.


 No.2865197

Marx's main concern was to explain why a moneyless and stateless society was the logical end-result of historical development.

Marx and Engels did discuss some of the economic aspects of socialism, since (as Marx wrote) it "emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges."

By contrast, all they were really willing to say about communism was that the principle of distribution would be "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

Before Marx, there were what were called utopian socialists like Robert Owen and Charles Fourier. They devised elaborate blueprints for "ideal" societies and then tried to create small, isolated communities to make them a reality. Marx saw this as erroneous, since socialism and communism are made possible above all by the development of society's productive forces. Since these forces in turn shape man's consciousness, man in the future will actually be able to address what a communist society will look like, since it will finally be possible to establish it.

Hence why Marx and Engels didn't elaborate on the future communist society. A lot would just be fanciful speculation of how things "ought" to look, having more in common with "City of the Sun" by Tommaso Campanella than anything scientific.


 No.2865298

>>2865125

>what does anarchism even has to offer?

Actually giving the proles the MoP?


 No.2865300

File: 7c4221bfc4d98b3⋯.jpg (34.61 KB, 620x413, 620:413, 27m10v.jpg)

>>2865298

oh my silly friend, the state will take care of those MoP you so much desire


 No.2865303

>>2865300

>State representatives

Uh no thanks I think I'll control them directly mr. moustache man


 No.2865304

>>2865112

I mean, we have ideas about how socialism would look. There are numerous historical examples, and some ongoing socialist experiments. Communism is theoretical. The material conditions necessary for the abolition of classes, the state, and money do not exist. It is literally impossible to conceptualize, specifically, "what communism would look like."


 No.2865315

>>2865303

Would anarcho-kiddies be against the way Yugo handled means of production?


 No.2865399

>>2865120

>If Marx's view of history is correct

It's not whether it's correct or not, Marx never said communism is inevitable, he simply said that communism could be one possible outcome to come out of capitalism. Humanity could very well become extinct before capitalism is replaced however.


 No.2865433

>>2865112

A state that exists solely to define and protect the national border while farming villages of 20-30 people are able to live without need for writing, reading, or money.




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