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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

A collective of people engaged in pretty much what the name suggests
Winner of the 77nd Attention-Hungry Games
/x/ - Paranormal Phenomena and The RCP Authority

April 2019 - 8chan Transparency Report
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Tags: leftism (CLICK HERE FOR MORE LEFTIST 8CHAN BOARDS), politics, activism, news

File: 74748e2301553e4⋯.webm (4.89 MB, 1280x720, 16:9, capitalism_rocks.webm)

 No.2873651

Sorry losers, the price mechanism wins. If you disagree, you're a luddite.

>>>/liberty/

("no")

 No.2873654

Bless globalism.


 No.2873656

Price is outdated now that we have powerful computers, that army of beauracrats isn't neccessary anymore

http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/


 No.2873658

>>2873656

Nice theory, show me the socialist pencils.


 No.2873660

>>2873658

just google it nigga lol


 No.2873661

File: 0d836178d502987⋯.jpg (216.1 KB, 1920x1080, 16:9, 0d836178d502987cd5d5aa7402….jpg)

>people have to cooperate to make shit

whoa brah

It's almost like the workers are the backbone of the economy, and without their cooperation you wouldn't get a pencil regardless of your goofy price system.


 No.2873664

>>2873661

Nice theory, show me the coop pencils.


 No.2873665

File: 34e1a8ab508a6d0⋯.jpg (368.88 KB, 1338x1078, 669:539, 1526318948718.jpg)

>>2873664

show me a price system creating pencils without workers


 No.2873666

Can someone explain to me how would this not happen under a socialist mode of production?


 No.2873668

>>2873665

>without workers

Both systems require workers; this is not a delineating feature.


 No.2873669

>>2873668

It actually is though, because ours cuts out the capitalist and keeps the workers, where as yours makes them beholden to the capitalist


 No.2873670

Imagine believing this when we will have a global recession by the end of this year lmfaoooo


 No.2873672

>>2873651

Wow OP it's almost as if humans naturaly survive in a huge chain of cooperation in which every link is partially responsible for the existance of humanity as we understand it.

Too bad this is a commie pipe dream, businessman and landlords create all the value of things and are the absolute rightfull owners of almost all of the world's wealth.


 No.2873674

File: ec45dfb73e71a9e⋯.jpg (38.25 KB, 488x488, 1:1, fruits of capitalism.jpg)

>>2873669

OK so what you meant to say was:

>show me the pencils made by workers beholden to capitalists

See attached. Now you show me the pencils made by a coop of unbeholden workers.


 No.2873676

>>2873674

>why is there no socialism under capitalism


 No.2873677

>>2873672

>Wow OP it's almost as if humans naturaly survive in a huge chain of cooperation in which every link is partially responsible for the existance of humanity as we understand it.

Yes, price being the tensile data sheet informing the linker as to what size and shape his link will have to be to support the chain.


 No.2873678

File: f6be452148ffe26⋯.jpg (85.97 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, horriblesubs-jojos-bizarre….jpg)

>>2873674

No, I'm saying your price system didn't create them, workers did.

The price system actually just made things harder.

So I'll ask you again, "show me a price system creating pencils without workers".


 No.2873679

>>2873674

show me prices without pencils


 No.2873680

>>2873677

Humans have been doing this way before modern pricing systems or even currency.

Suck a dick


 No.2873681

>>2873651

Wait what the fuck, why was the video on the left there?

Is this a new way of dispensing your propaganda?


 No.2873682

>>2873678

Nice theory, show me the pencils made by workers who didn't use a priced supply chain.


 No.2873684

File: 9f6dd8a08baa29c⋯.jpg (281.42 KB, 1639x774, 1639:774, feudal starbucks analogy.jpg)


 No.2873686

>>2873678

This.

Pricing and markets put the carts before the bulls but are a necessity to manage shitty descentralized human production under capitalism.

Under socialiasm we could just identify demand, plan the best way to suply such demand, produce aquiring resources directly from the environment.

Meanwhile we are stuck with huge suply chains that are subject by millions of layers of useless variable inserted by private actors in the system.

The goal is the same but one method is convoluted and unstable.

>>2873682

soviet pencils.


 No.2873687

File: 1a7a755d4eb2cd2⋯.jpg (81.6 KB, 800x450, 16:9, its-magic-i-aint-gotta-exp….jpg)

>>2873682

You're still not telling me why they need one. This should be easy for you.

But I guess good ol' Milton said the price system is magic tho…

Nice theory


 No.2873693

>>2873681

I understand why Adorno hated jazz now


 No.2873695

>>2873686

>soviet pencils.

Factually incorrect. In fact, the USSR fucked up consumer goods production so badly by the Five Year Plan, that they had to roll it back and allow prices to float. The market will not be denied, commrade.

>>2873687

I'm saying that all your theories don't mean anything if the systems they describe can't make a fucking pencil.


 No.2873699

File: 9862a1c5abb9aea⋯.jpg (70.14 KB, 690x505, 138:101, fe755273718f979f9ae3db8143….jpg)

>>2873695

>"The Five Year Plan"

>the USSR was capitalist


 No.2873709

>>2873695

>>soviet pencils.

>Factually incorrect. In fact, the USSR fucked up consumer goods production so badly by the Five Year Plan, that they had to roll it back and allow prices to float. The market will not be denied, commrade.

What the fuck does this mean?


 No.2873710

File: 3a5935f10651fe5⋯.jpg (95.36 KB, 794x675, 794:675, il_794xN.1002052205_74nb.jpg)

>>2873695

>b-but muh pencils

Here you go, bud.

Enjoy the anchor gulag.


 No.2873713

File: e9ec20e56fbe0ba⋯.png (374.85 KB, 537x645, 179:215, was it.png)

>>2873699

>strawman combined with an either/or fallacy

Clumsy sophist. Show me the pencils or gtfo.


 No.2873719

>>2873695

you were waiting for someone to say soviet pencils weren't you?

I knew, just wanted to see your answer.

What a bunch o bullshit.

Five year plans litterally carried the ussr trough the 20th century making it a superpower, and happened from 28 to 91. Your misunderstanding just shows your stupidity.

So both the golden age and decline of the ussr happened under 5 year plans, what killed it was the liberalization of the economy you defended.

Consumer goods with largesacale production on the ussr were produced without currency factored in, and they were able to supply their population efficiently, it was not perfect but neither is capitalism. The problems that arised in the soviet distribtion chain can be blamed on the refusal to adopt computing technology, introduction of private enterprises and burocracy. None of those things are defended by leftypol users or are inherent to socialis organiztion.

>>2873713

pencils were shown you just shifted the goalposts saying

>muh ussr bad


 No.2873721

File: a3cb25ad6eae9d1⋯.jpg (11.97 KB, 259x194, 259:194, car.jpg)

>>2873710

>no eraser

And I bet you think this is a car.


 No.2873724

>>2873719

>Five year plans litterally carried the ussr trough the 20th century making it a superpower, and happened from 28 to 91.

But what did he mean by "the five plan"? Which plan? Does he know China has five-year plans? I don't get what he meant by that.


 No.2873726

>>2873719

I was referring to the First Five Year plan, which caused a massive shutdown of production of consumer goods, so they rolled it back to allow for floating prices.

>shifted goal post

Literally every poster ITT has attempted this except for me.


 No.2873727

>>2873651

I don't get it. Prices produce pencils? Like, out of thin fucking air? He does say it's magic. What produced the prices? Other prices? All the way down you say?


 No.2873728

File: feb2301768ba712⋯.jpg (16.14 KB, 178x283, 178:283, f5bd1865ac72ae2d884208a0c2….jpg)

>>2873713

Of fucking course you like Sam Hyde.

Let me address you more seriously than you deserve, though; even if your example was correct, just because something has never happened yet, does that mean it could never happen? At one point capitalism had never existed, yet clearly using this argument against it would have been fallacious because it did indeed begin to exist. Am I being absurd to say that one day practical anti gravity and gene therapy will exist? There's no way to do it now but it's easy to imagine that some day there would be. Socialism isn't a technology in itself but it does rely on a certain level of technology to enable realistic two way communication between producers and the central databases in a quick mannner. In addition it requires a certain level of basic moral philosophy among human beings, to be able to understand abstract systems that benefit the individual in a more complex way than "Grug cut down tree, Grug make fire and be warm". You might work in a factory under socialism making some product that you have no interest in using whatsoever, yet it can still be in your best interest to work in kind so that others will create the goods that you need and want. To summarize, if these factors are not yet in place (or were not yet in place at one point, perhaps in Marx's time) is it so outrageous to say that while it has not happened yet, socialism is likely to occur and to provide superior outcomes to capitalism?


 No.2873729

File: 547c6a0b58f1685⋯.jpg (173.97 KB, 640x480, 4:3, Pencil 1.jpg)

File: 16de6d79fad06a2⋯.jpg (47.07 KB, 960x714, 160:119, pencil 2.jpg)

>>2873713

>show me the pencils

Well, here you go.


 No.2873732

>>2873727

>necessary vs. sufficient conditions

Learn the difference.


 No.2873734

>>2873726

Consumer goods weren't prioritized in early USSR. After the war there was a debate in the party and the guy (forgot his name) who wanted the USSR focus on consumer goods got shot, this of course was Stalin's idea. If you want to talk about consumer goods in the soviet union speak about the period from 1960s-1980s.


 No.2873735

>>2873721

wanting a shitty eraser that lasts 3 rubs and will likelly tear appart, i never seen a single person use that shit unless they are out of erasers.

>>2873726

>I was referring to the First Five Year plan, which caused a massive shutdown of production of consumer goods, so they rolled it back to allow for floating prices.

Nice timeline you are living.

Where did you get your info a youtube video with an avatarfag anacap?

"because of the successes made by the first plan, Stalin did not hesitate with going ahead with the second five-year plan in 1932"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-year_plans_for_the_national_economy_of_the_Soviet_Union


 No.2873738

>>2873721

It's true, they had no erasers in the USSR, that's actually why the disastrous Afghan war happened, someone accidentally wrote an exclamation mark after "Invade Afghanistan" on a report instead of a question mark, and couldn't rub it out. Of course, he couldn't use a new piece of paper either, since that would have been theft from the proletariat and he would have been executed. So, he had no choice but to send the paper to his subordinates and let the pieces fall where they may. True story.

In seriousness pencils with rubbers on the end are a very burger invention, it's a flashy gimmick but if you actually try to use the rubber it usually comes off eventually, and it's difficult to get a good erase on a thick line or word with such a small surface area. Having a separate rubber is much better.


 No.2873739

>>2873728

>OwO

And I guess you're gay, but why should our personalities figure into an economics and history discussion?

>just because something has never happened yet, does that mean it could never happen?

Would you accept a similar line of reasoning from someone trying to convince you of their religious beliefs?

>You ca't prove God doesn't exist.

True enough but not convincing.


 No.2873741

File: 009ed2182e1383c⋯.png (249.36 KB, 672x506, 336:253, amerimutt difference.png)

>>2873721

>doesn't know most pencils sold in Europe are eraser-less

You reek of burger, fam


 No.2873742

>>2873732

So prices aren't necessary to produce pencils, just sufficient? How much magic is sufficient to produce pencils out of thin fucking air?


 No.2873743

>>2873735

>sour grapes

>appeal to authority

>scarecrow

Next.


 No.2873744

>>2873739

Posts with images regardless of what they are are more likely to get responses.

I am disappointed in your lack of a proper response, I thought you liberty guys liked to pretend to be intellectuals? Clearly a question about economics has nothing to do with God. However, if you were to suggest some new and intelligent way to try to verify the existence of God, it would be wrong of me to deride you and say that method had never successful before, even if now we have completely different tools, therefore it obviously wouldn't work and we shouldn't even try.


 No.2873745

>>2873743

>straightup unsuported historical revisionism

>followed by naming fallacies with no arguments

typical pseudo.


 No.2873746

>>2873741

>he said, on an American imageboard, in American English, on the American internet, using American-developed computer technology

It's lonely at the top.


 No.2873747

>>2873746

And yet still he is right


 No.2873748

>>2873743

Are you now seriously arguing that they had no way to rub out pencil in the USSR? I mean, all of us most likely live in a capitalist country, it's hardly like we couldn't just go buy a burger pencil ourselves. What is 'sour grapes' about it?


 No.2873749

File: 66779ba75a3ccc5⋯.gif (238.84 KB, 473x594, 43:54, 35.gif)

>>2873746

>This are the kind of arguments lib-pseuds make


 No.2873750

File: 126051557d616eb⋯.jpg (73.71 KB, 472x569, 472:569, 126051557d616eb44669d07f21….jpg)

>>2873746

>Americans invented computers

>Americans invented HTTP


 No.2873752

>>2873748

I think he believes the USSR had lines of hundreds waiting before the empty stores before the late 80s.


 No.2873753

File: b087d9ed0748462⋯.png (32.68 KB, 686x798, 49:57, 1514216436488.png)

>>2873746

>all this whataboutism to deflect from his own ignorance as a burger

I can feel you seething from oceans away


 No.2873754

>>2873746

Oh and imageboards are Japanese. And you're speaking English and using Latin characters.

In summation, press F to pay respects to the US education system. It's going to be a long and painful shock when the Chinese take over superpower status from the US.


 No.2873756

>>2873744

Like a math teacher grading a problem, I stop reading when errors or fallacies are encountered in the presuppositions or beginning premises.

My response to "you're a burger who uses burger pencils" was intellectually proportional, and just as correct.


 No.2873757

>>2873752

Perhaps he simply believes that hundreds would have to cue to use the town's communal rubber, which was attached to a post by steel wire and watched over by two armed red guards at all times.


 No.2873758

>>2873754

>8chan is Japenese

Fake news.


 No.2873759

>>2873756

But those pencils are a burger phenomena. So why are you so surprised that they were rare in the USSR.

I might as well say capitalism was a failure due to the huge shortage of Lenin statues in the US compared to the USSR, obviously capitalism just wasn't efficient enough to produce them.


 No.2873760

>>2873756

Speaking of fallacious premises, where do those magic prices come from again? Also, you'd make a really shitty math teacher.


 No.2873761

>>2873756

>He thinks arguing works like math

>burger and stemfag pseud to boot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy

Still haven't gotten a clear explanation about that "first five year plan" that suposedly failed.

You casually said i was falacious for linking wikipedia and exempted yourself from proving anything.


 No.2873762

>>2873759

Pencils with erasers are not burger-specific. The topic of this thread is, show me a pencil made using your economic theories. "Societ pencils" was suggested by you, not me. And it fails the test in multiple ways, as I've explained.


 No.2873763

>>2873762

They didn't your explanation was historically incorect.


 No.2873764

File: 71899c63cbf89ba⋯.jpg (98.6 KB, 1125x871, 1125:871, 718.jpg)

>>2873759

It's because he's intellectually dishonest. I'm guessing he actually only came here to shitpost, but found himself out of his depth when he was forced out of his dialogue tree, so now he's throwing everything at us but the kitchen sink to save face.


 No.2873765

>>2873762

There's 2 images of pencils in the USSR in this thread, if you are just shitposting say it now, if you are being obnoxious ignore the photos and let us know you are a faggot.


 No.2873766


 No.2873768

>>2873761

>he thinks logic and math are not analogous

Yikes.


 No.2873769

>>2873763

False.


 No.2873771

>>2873769

Please give me cnocrete evidence on how the 28 fice year plan failed and was rolled back?

Seriously i'm still waiting.


 No.2873772

>>2873764

>name-calling

>burger memes

>fallacies

The high level of dialogue here definitely has me scramblin'


 No.2873774

>>2873768

>he thinks magic is real


 No.2873775

>>2873768

There isn't that much logic to be found with you.


 No.2873776

File: 5235a6e55794b0b⋯.png (517.98 KB, 753x800, 753:800, honk stirner.png)


 No.2873779

>>2873771

>please teach me history

The world is at your fingertips. I refuse to spoonfeed you. Google it.


 No.2873780

File: 2eae6b251aa0ef3⋯.jpg (43.52 KB, 401x574, 401:574, 2eae6b251aa0ef3af0a484f4c4….jpg)

>>2873764

I mean, you're right, he clearly didn't come here looking for a real argument but since he stirred one up he can damn well sit there and take it like a man. He can leave or just make troll arguments if he wants but he'll still know deep down he got BTFOd.


 No.2873781

>>2873766

>market is booming

>production surging

<oh no

t. /leftypol/


 No.2873783

>>2873779

>I refuse to actually explain why you're wrong, go educate yourself!

Libertarians confirmed for the right wing equivalent of SJWs.


 No.2873784

>>2873772

Take credit for that one bud, we're really trying to dish it out to refute your magic prices argument.


 No.2873786

File: 3ee8b26e57ecff0⋯.png (1.09 MB, 900x1200, 3:4, destiny.png)

>>2873772

>acting snarky after mistaking pencils and Milton's price magic for an argument


 No.2873788

File: 4a84cb966c57d09⋯.jpg (624.67 KB, 2300x1594, 1150:797, 1816e4df515bbceaa695a6a6a6….jpg)

>>2873781

>It's a good thing that adults are so mentally obliterated by capitalism they've reverted to colouring books to de-stress

t. liberdy :^DDDD


 No.2873790

>>2873784

>magic prices

Any sufficiently advanced technology is perceived as magic, and given the vapor theory bubble brained indoctrination prevalent here, I'd say that "magic prices" is an accurate phrasing for you.


 No.2873792

What is OP's point? i'm lost, there were pencils in socialism.


 No.2873793

File: 10b1289a87e8bb4⋯.png (287.5 KB, 680x673, 680:673, 10b1289a87e8bb499b19346724….png)

>>2873783

>I refuse to google "First Five Year Plan USSR"

>and you're an SJW for not giving me the tl;dr


 No.2873794

>>2873788

>20 HOUR WORKING WEEK

And they call us utopian.


 No.2873795

>>2873779

You provided uncorected claims at first, when contested you ignored me, and now when asked for a correct narrative put the burden on me. Your willingess to provide information vanished with your confidence in your historical knowledge.

I knew you were here to have and be dishonest from the start but now your own game of pretending to be smart has cracked.

5/10 for your effort.


 No.2873796

>>2873795

have fun and be dishonest*


 No.2873797

>>2873795

Ok literally go right now and google "First Five Year Plan", click on the first link, read it all, then come back here and tell me I was wrong. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you.


 No.2873799

>>2873793

We said it was a success, you said it wasn't, so we asked you for sources.


 No.2873800

File: 5d64fd3966b94db⋯.jpg (493.32 KB, 800x531, 800:531, pencils007-31.jpg)

"Government supported the project and its main task at that time was elimination of illiteracy in the country. For this office accessories had to be made available. After the fall of the USSR the Moscow factory remained the only producer of pencils in the ex-USSR countries with a complete production cycle."

Pretty interesting that only one pencil factory was operating at full capacity after the collapse of the USSR. You'd think that with all of those magic prices pencil production would be at an all-time high.

http://englishrussia.com/2012/09/13/old-pencil-making-factory/


 No.2873801


 No.2873803


 No.2873804

>>2873790

So you don't believe that pencils are produced out of thin fucking air by the sheer existence of prices? Cause your boy Milton seems to think so. What's your take?


 No.2873805

File: 0f46300a3e36b66⋯.jpg (121.31 KB, 640x360, 16:9, 111219035435-north-korea-k….jpg)

>>2873674

>See attached. Now you show me the pencils made by a coop of unbeholden workers.

OK


 No.2873806

>>2873800

I'm referring to a modern pencil with an eraser, as that demonstrates large scale cooperation across multiple disparate groups, and not limited to the USSR. Show me a modern pencil fabricated by the economic policies espoused on this board.

>>2873804

>produced out of thin fucking air by the sheer existence of prices

Strawman.


 No.2873807

>>2873803

Yeah, ok. I still don't get where it goes about the failure of the first 5 year plan. It only says that consumer goods sucked in the 30s and about the shortages in the 80s.

Also

>Getting info from Wikipedia


 No.2873808

>>2873805

>North Korea

Those are clearly Potemkin pencils. All media from North Korea is weaponized.


 No.2873809

>>2873803

>shortages only became meaningfull after the 80's

You won't find a single person defending late ussr here.


 No.2873810

>>2873807

>Yeah, ok. I still don't get where it goes about the failure of the first 5 year plan

I dunno man, your reading comprehension must be pure shit. It clearly describes the destruction of small scale manufacturing and the legalization of price mechanisms and trading.

>>2873809

Well that's not what I was referring to.

>First Five Year Plan


 No.2873811

>>2873806

>Strawman

How is it a strawman? He's asking you what you believe, and considering Milton said it was magic, you should probably pick a better explanation.


 No.2873813

>>2873810

I'm >>2873807

The only thing on wikipedia says about the fist five year plan is this

>The First Five-Year plan caused the closure of all artisan methods of consumer goods production, such as small private factories and workshops. In the mid-1930s, these methods of production were allowed to return on a small scale.[6] In May 1936, a law was passed that slightly improved the supply of consumer goods by legalizing individual practice of trades such as cobbling, cabinetmaking, carpentry, dressmaking, hairdressing, laundering, locksmithing, photography, plumbing, tailoring, and upholstery – it slightly improved the shortage of consumer goods. Artisanal activity related to food was still banned. Kolkhoz markets were set up for artisans and peasants to sell their homemade goods. The State regulated the amount of participation in these markets but prices were allowed to float.[5] This floating caused the prices at these markets to normally be higher than prices in the closed distribution stores. Individual service was illegal until May 1936.

So I still don't get your point. Those things were reverted after some time.


 No.2873816

>>2873651

price is fake


 No.2873820

>>2873806

Again, if I have your position wrong, what is your take? Where do prices come from and where do pencils come from? Milton said it's magic in the video you posted. Neoclassical economics treats labor as an after thought and prices as primary, as if the system could exist without production. Which is basically magic.


 No.2873822

File: 297df95e1d787ce⋯.jpg (33.01 KB, 477x740, 477:740, jontron at his computer.jpg)

>>2873806

>modern pencil with an eraser

>modern pencil


 No.2873824

>>2873813

>I still don't get your point

Right there in your green text: the reintroduction of markets to revive a sector killed by over regulation.


 No.2873826

>>2873810

>he mocks our reading comprehension

The article only speaks about the end price of consumer goods you dimwit this price was used to balance the consumption of the end product and was planned by the government. Small private infrastructure was allowed to fill the gaps of the still developing state infrastructure, by the time after the war those enterprises were mostly obsolete. Still even during this period a great chunk of consumer goods were still being produced by the state.

>In May 1936, a law was passed that slightly improved the supply of consumer goods by legalizing individual practice of trades such as cobbling, cabinetmaking, carpentry, dressmaking, hairdressing, laundering, locksmithing, photography, plumbing, tailoring, and upholstery – it slightly improved the shortage of consumer goods

None of those areas reach pencil levels of complexity

This suposed "failure of the first five year plan" was just a minor correction. Honestly with businesses this small most socialists won't be bothered with ideological purity.


 No.2873827

>>2873824

>Those things were reverted after some time.


 No.2873830

>>2873826

Guess it goes without saying that raw materials provided for those areas were provided by state owned enterprises.

This already brakes your miltonian magic price chain.


 No.2873831

>>2873824

Yeah, there was a legal market in the USSR which counted for around 20% of the economy after the war, but those things reversed and by 60s it was only 10%. Even then most of it was services that were done by small groups of people, not some giant mega corps with markets.


 No.2873832

>>2873820

>as if the system could exist without production

False inference; where are you getting this? Also, you used the term "magic" twice in your post, but the first was a metaphor, and the second was Harry Potter wizard magic. I can't tell if you're being deliberately deceptive, or have genuine confusion on a basic literary and semantic level.


 No.2873835

>>2873832

Your false inference is itself a false inference. Of course neoclassical economists know you need production somewhere, but they essentially disregard it in their models and theory of prices.


 No.2873836

>>2873826

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_five-year_plan#Failures_of_the_first_five-year_plan

All of the problems described in this section are information problems. Price is exactly the information that prevents those problems.


 No.2873838

>>2873835

>Of course neoclassical economists know you need production somewhere, but they essentially disregard it in their models and theory of prices

But labor costs are part of the price model. What are you talking about?


 No.2873839

>>2873836

>All of the problems described in this section are information problems. Price is exactly the information that prevents those problems.

No one is denying that. The thing is those problems were solved, the average soviet citizen could expect to have a pencil, and the problem doesn't exist anymore since we can calculate the economy in labor time.


 No.2873840

>>2873839

>solved

>large-scale famine in the Soviet Union between 1932 and 1933 in which 3.3 to 7.5 million died

I mean you're not wrong, they survivors did something resembling a pencil.


 No.2873843

>>2873840

>Areas like capital goods increased 158%, consumer goods increased by 87%, and total industrial output increased by 118%.[42] In addition, despite the difficulties that agriculture underwent throughout the plan, the Soviets recruited more than 70,000 volunteers from the cities to help collectivize and work on farms in the rural areas.[43]


 No.2873846

>>2873836

Famine asside those problems were irrelevant, it's just unrealistic quotas, the plan was still a success.

By the way you are nitpicking one of, if not the greatest industrialization effort in human history.


 No.2873850

>>2873840

The famine wasn't because of lack of markets. That's just silly.


 No.2873854

File: f5e414b0d88bc05⋯.jpg (185.57 KB, 1284x930, 214:155, milton magic.jpg)

>this thread


 No.2873856

>>2873854

Markets = pencils. Remember that kids.


 No.2873859

>>2873846

>>2873843

>3,300,000 to 7,500,000 killed

>caused directly by gov't policies

<nitpicking

<famine aside

<still a success

<consumer goods increase 87%, etc.

<greatest industrialization effort in human history

Holy shit, /leftypol/

You forgot one more important cornerstone: the greatest democide in human history, up to that point.

>>2873850

>The famine wasn't because of lack of markets.

Collectivization was responsible for both the famine and the lack of markets.


 No.2873861

>>2873854

>>2873856

>more strawmen

Big brains in here


 No.2873864

>>2873859

Are we going for the godzilions game? I too can point to slavery, the fact that natives were pretty much eradicated, multiple imperialist wars of the US, etc. In the end USSR made the gap between the west and east smaller in a short amount of time, but with many mistakes. If we didn't have collectivization and industrialization there is a big chance USSR wouldn't have won WW2.


 No.2873867

>>2873861

Can't be a strawman if you're too dumb to actually make an argument, and let magic Milton make one for you.


 No.2873870

>>2873859

You would have preferred if the Nazis won WW2? Obviously you would.


 No.2873884

>>2873864

>whataboutery

>>2873867

>double down on strawman against Friedman

>also you're dumb

no u

>>2873870

>if you're against soviet collectivization which killed millions, you wanted Hitler to win

False dichotomy.


 No.2873888

>>2873884

>if you're against soviet collectivization which killed millions, you wanted Hitler to win

Maybe you wouldn't have wanted it, but that's what had a higher chance of happening.


 No.2873906

>>2873888

You can't just remove one piece from the puzzle and assume its the same picture. This would be obvious to you if submitted to you that, for example, if it hadn't been for the Third Reich, the 22,000 soviet tanks would have plowed over all of Europe and the Iron Curtain would've been the Atlantic Ocean.


 No.2873908

>>2873906

>22,000

Excuse me, that's just what they produced up to the start of the war. It was ~60,000 tanks in total. Where are the monuments to Hitler for preventing the enslavement of all of Europe?


 No.2873913

>>2873884

>>whataboutery

Fuck this bullshit and fuck you. The fact that everything the US did in the middle east and Libya was economical reason wasn't the fault of capitalism, but the US government. But for some fucking reason, everything the USSR did is communism and therefore it's the fault of communism. I never understood this fucking retarded logic.

You don't actually care (neither am I) that how many people died in either side, you just use the death toll as an excuse to hate USSR and/or communism. It's nothing more than a moral deathmatch game. This is the reason why nobody takes "muh death toll" seriously in this board.

Seriously, fuck you.


 No.2873917

File: 1307b75320672bb⋯.jpg (40.01 KB, 373x521, 373:521, really.jpg)

>>2873913

>being this triggered

Another libtard destroyed with facts and logic.


 No.2873919

File: 8bcb72c55a0a1e8⋯.png (1.78 MB, 680x977, 680:977, ClipboardImage.png)


 No.2873923

File: d075374c3a429c0⋯.png (49.2 KB, 180x214, 90:107, 1ecced0a93bbb2d74f3cb54655….png)

>>2873676

>if everyone just gets up and goes to work all day for nothing

>everybody can have everything for free


 No.2873933

>>2873913

Let me respond to this post genuinely because its so horrific.

>everything the USSR did is communism and therefore it's the fault of communism

No, but this is a thread about how price is an irreplaceable vehicle of information between economic actors. To that end, USSR's collectivization and resulting famine are extremely relevant.

>You don't actually care (neither am I) that how many people died in either side

I'm not a sociopath like you, you insane piece of shit.

>just use the death toll as an excuse to hate USSR and/or communism

What better metric is there than democide to malign a regime? The fact that they turned their society into an open air prison is another reason. The legacy of the Stasi is another. The subversion of US institutions throughout the Cold War is another. The spread of their ideology to other nations, which suffered the same ill effects, is another. Quite worthy of hatred, in my estimation.

>This is the reason why nobody takes "muh death toll" seriously in this board.

You're mentally ill.


 No.2874037

>>2873859

the famine was circumstantial to the collectivization process. it didn't keep happening and was not a consequence of the soviet manufacturing system. So yes it is unrelated to the question you are asking.

The soviet mode of production suceeded in producing the pencils you wanted an also made way more complex things without pricing.

>almost doubling consumer goods production in 5 YEARS

>in a economic plan where consumer goods weren't even the focus

>somehow this is bad


 No.2874040

>>2873933

>No, but this is a thread about how price is an irreplaceable vehicle of information between economic actors. To that end, USSR's collectivization and resulting famine are extremely relevant.

The Kulaks actually held out because of the price system tho. There's really no reason to think those people wouldn't have died anyway given how much the price system lorded over people's lives.

>I'm not a sociopath like you, you insane piece of shit.

no, you're actually worse than this guy, because you support Nazis lmao

>What better metric is there than democide to malign a regime?

It's funny you completely ignore the artificial scarcity of every day capitalism, but a genuine attempt to reduce such circumstances is maligned with crocodile tears.

>


 No.2874042

>>2873923

>For nothing

It's like you don't even know what out positions are


 No.2874044

>>2873884

>It a strawman. Fuck explaining to you how it's a strawman, but it's a strawman

k' bud


 No.2874114

File: c6821e1d611c88d⋯.jpg (52.32 KB, 570x459, 190:153, il_570xN.1325787680_2t21.jpg)


 No.2874126

Question for OP: Do you agree with the statement that a working price system logically requires that different parts of the means of production must be owned by many different people? That is, do you believe that if all productive capacity were owned by a monopolist prices couldn't work, and not just because of corruption or a lack of motivation, but that they literally couldn't work no matter what the character of Mr Monopolist is?

Bonus question: You supply people with pencils with erasers on top. Different people have different ratios of how much from the eraser top they use up relative to pencil graphite. Moreover, this is not a stable ratio for the same individual over time, and even for the individuals themselves it is not easy to predict how the own usage ratio might change. This leads to many cases where some pencil gets used up with the entire eraser top still being there or the eraser being used up while only half the graphite is gone. You are standing in front of the class, thinking aloud about the problem and you say you consider kickstarting an app for an online market exchange platform to bring tops without pencils and pencils without tops together, suddenly a student jumps up and says he has an engineering solution to your problem. What do you think that engineering solution is?


 No.2874388

File: c4fd49b0e0aac7e⋯.jpg (238.42 KB, 1056x537, 352:179, Annotation 2019-04-24 1356….jpg)


 No.2874390

>>2874040

>you support Nazis

No I don't, but you support Communists which murdered 10's of millions of their own people.


 No.2874979

>>2873923

High school level understanding of socialism.




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