[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / 1776q / agatha2 / choroy / dempart / fascist / freeb / vg / vichan ]

/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

A collective of people engaged in pretty much what the name suggests
Winner of the 83rd Attention-Hungry Games
/strek/ - Remove Hasperat

May 2019 - 8chan Transparency Report
Name
Email
Subject
Comment *
File
Password (Randomized for file and post deletion; you may also set your own.)
* = required field[▶ Show post options & limits]
Confused? See the FAQ.
Flag
Options
dicesidesmodifier

Allowed file types:jpg, jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, pdf
Max filesize is 16 MB.
Max image dimensions are 15000 x 15000.
You may upload 5 per post.


File: 4551450a3323764⋯.jpeg (74.35 KB, 1066x548, 533:274, F48BBD84-DB0A-45A6-8A62-0….jpeg)

 No.2935345

>DSA/Jacobin/Haymarket-sponsored ‘Socialism’ conference features US gov-funded regime-change activists

Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal have just written an amazing piece in the Grayzone Project regarding the Haymarket ‘socialist’ conference in Chicago organised by anti-communist groups the D.S.A and Jacobin magazine. The article links C.I.A group the National Endowment for Democracy funding for various individuals and groups at the conference shilling for regime change against Cuba, Nicaragua and the People’s Republic of China. For those who don’t know Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal are amazing journalist who contribute to the Greyzone project but also have a podcast called ‘Moderate Rebels’.

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/07/06/dsa-jacobin-iso-socialism-conference-us-funded-regime-change/

 No.2935357

What the fuck is wrong with Americans? They can't all be on the payroll and many of them must just be plain stupid, surely.


 No.2935358

>>2935354

You’re not unironically supporting the guest speakers positions on Cuba, Nicaragua and the P.R.C are you?


 No.2935363

File: d4f9be32ff8e3d3⋯.png (84.87 KB, 500x407, 500:407, 239.png)


 No.2935364

>>2935354

>the liberal capitalist opposition in those countries are the Bolsheviks

>Cuba and Nicaragua are the Russian Empire

imagine being this retarded


 No.2935365

>>2935364

Pretty sure he's just mocking Trots.


 No.2935366


 No.2935368

Reminder that social democrats are social fascists. Every "leftist" that isn't a Marxist-Leninist is an enemy, left unity is a myth and is undesirable.


 No.2935381

AROUND THE ROSE, HOLD YOUR NOSE


 No.2935397

>>2935357

It's just right-opportunism which in the context of the U.S. means compromising with imperialism and the national security state.

ISO was always an odd group because it was extremely anti-Soviet and wouldn't even defend it as a "degenerated workers state" like other Trotskyists, but like Trotskyists believed in bottom-up revolution in the form of workers councils. And was highly centralized with an old leadership that had been there forever with strict control over the "line." Also it was entrenched on college campuses and rarely organized outside of colleges.

Anyways my guess is they always took the anti-Soviet position back in the day, but couldn't argue for U.S. imperialism openly. This has transferred today where if you read Socialist Worker – the ISO's newspaper – you'd see these bizarro pretzel-logic articles about it's the duty of socialists to support Jabhat Al Nusra; i.e. basically the CIA's position while coming short of endorsing open U.S. intervention. Because defending Assad is the tankie position and the ISO were not tankies, Assad is bad and should be overthrown or something. I dunno the whole thing is weird.


 No.2935407

With things like this it's really hard to NOT be anti-american

How do the rest of you (non Burgers) do it?


 No.2935409

Like part of Norton and Blumenthal's whole point here is that U.S. intervention and regime change typically *doesn't* take the form of open aggression or coup d'etats these days but in the form of "bottom-up" color revolutions which the ISO, curiously enough, fetishizes as the authentic workers' revolution blah blah and which "opens up the space" for socialism as opposed to the bureacratic command Stalinism as represented by Castro, Ortega, etc. This is why the ISO has generally supported all of these "revolutions." Like all it takes is a cutout for the CIA to hand a few thousand teenagers $20 bills in whatever the targeted country is, some cans of spraypaint and stencils with the raised fist and have them shut down parts of the capital as the U.S. squeezes the country's finances through its control of financial flows, the status of the dollar as the world's reserve currency, sanctions, etc.

I had popped into a few ISO meetings that were local and I found them to be somewhat mixed. Haymarket, their publisher, did have some good books though and they'd always have them out for sale. But it was really just a handful of the same people sitting in a classroom at the nearby college reading Trotsky and talking about current events. Not a fan of the Trotsky but I did like that they spent a lot of time talking about current events and this kind of "political education" which the DSA does not do so much. Unfortunately the political education was Trotskyism so you became actively dumber by going to ISO meetings, which was unfortunate.

The DSA on the other hand doesn't have any illusions about being revolutionary, and after Bernie got ratfucked out of the nomination, blew up to tens of thousands of members. And even better, DSA won't tell you what you can and can't believe. So it's much more attractive than the ISO and the members of the ISO seem to be liquidating into the DSA. Anyways I'm not sure what the divisions are internally, but it's interesting that someone was leaking these emails to Norton and Blumenthal so there is a struggle within the org. My impression is the Jacobin types and their people in the national leadership want to likewise liquidate the membership into the Bernie Sanders campaign, whereas others want to split from the Democrats altogether and focus on "base building" (groups like "Build").


 No.2935412

>>2935407

>it's really hard to NOT be anti-american

>How do the rest of you (non Burgers) do it?

we don't. every communist should be anti-USAmerican.


 No.2935420

>>2935412

>we don't. every communist should be anti-USAmerican.

>>2935357

>What the fuck is wrong with Americans? They can't all be on the payroll and many of them must just be plain stupid, surely.

I mean that's the tension. American socialists live in the big daddy of imperialism so they're being whipped to and fro by the contradictions of that. Either you join the PSL or CPUSA (actual tankies despite their reputation toward being liberals) and rule yourself out of having any support among the normies completely, or you join the ISO/DSA types and concede to right-wing talking points for a taste of power and MSNBC appearances. "Socialism isn't Venezuela" or whatever, of course that means your socialist newspaper is running articles about why socialists should support overthrowing the Venezuelan government or whatever. Should've joined the tankies.


 No.2935438

>>2935363

I call them filthy traitors and infiltrators personally


 No.2935440

>>2935366

Relevant reading for anyone trying to rehabilitate Kautsky.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/prrk/index.htm


 No.2935454

>>2935409

https://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/1205/may-68-to-colour-revolutions/

Here's an interesting article on the subject of "color revolutions".

tl;dr: the New Left was inspired by the mass uprisings of 1968, in France, Czechoslovakia, etc. This experience, combined with readings like Rosa Luxemburg's The Mass Strike, led them to fetishize mass action and orient their parties towards intervening in any issue that would get people onto the streets, in the belief that they could then be won to socialism. However, revolutionary upheavals in the decades since the dissolution of the USSR have failed to affect any meaningful left wing change, and as a result the New Left parties are disoriented by new phenomenons like US-sponsored "color revolutions".

The article made me wonder: what exactly is a "color revolution" (or similar event like the Maidan protests)? For all its mass action, all the Maidan upheaval in Ukraine accomplished was the transfer of power from a corrupt, protectionist industrial oligarchy to a corrupt, free-trade agricultural and gas oligarchy. Were the Maidan protests just a cover for a typical coup? Was it a genuine revolution fooled by the propaganda of multimillionaire neolibs like Poroshenko?

Sparking revolution is openly pursued or threatened by US imperialism today - the effect of sanctions on Iran or using the "wheat weapon" in Syria is to incite "regime change from within". It's almost impossible to imagine the US saying that during the cold war. Is this the result of a defeat of socialist ideology and propaganda? Or is it just the absence of the USSR which could give material support to revolutionaries in the past?


 No.2935477

>>2935454

>>2935409

It just dawned on me that propping up this “color revolution” narrative is probably the reason why a party as obviously right-wing and neoliberal as Popular Will calls itself “democratic socialist” and belongs to the Socialist International.


 No.2935483

>>2935454

>It's almost impossible to imagine the US saying that during the cold war. Is this the result of a defeat of socialist ideology and propaganda? Or is it just the absence of the USSR which could give material support to revolutionaries in the past?

Check out this recent interview with Putin in the Financial Times.

https://www.ft.com/video/d62ed062-0d6a-4818-86ff-4b8120125583

Transcript: https://www.ft.com/content/878d2344-98f0-11e9-9573-ee5cbb98ed36

First time he's spoken to a Western newspaper in some years (although he has given some T.V. interviews). Putin of course has his perspective and agenda but he thought world is becoming more unstable:

>Of course, because during the Cold War, the bad thing was the Cold War. It is true. But there were at least some rules that all participants in international communication more or less adhered to or tried to follow. Now, it seems that there are no rules at all. In this sense, the world has become more fragmented and less predictable, which is the most important and regrettable thing.


 No.2935484

>>2935454

>The article made me wonder: what exactly is a "color revolution" (or similar event like the Maidan protests)?

There's a recent episode of Radio War Nerd on Gene Sharp who is a really influential person in the peace and social justice left in the West. He was a sociological who did a lot of work on non-violent social change. But he was also working for the CIA and wrote books on how to use the same tactics to resist, say, a Soviet invasion of Western Europe which is kind of an interesting thing. And Sharp – who died of old age recently – thought he was working to make the world a better place by eliminating war, and "working within the system" to reform it from within, but his methodologies and theories are subsequently being applied by the United States overseas.

I think the way it works is through the extended universe of NGOs and so forth that are funded by the U.S. government. Sharp had a theory that it only takes 3% of the population to be mobilized in the street to topple a government. In the U.S. that would be around nine million people but there hasn't been anything like that. But this has been achieved in "color revolutions" where the revolution would be basically run by these NGOs that would craft talking points, distributing supplies, and like I was saying even paying protesters to show up – point being to get whoever they wanted out (Milosevic in Serbia, Shevardnadze in Georgia, etc.) and get their guy in. It's also kind of an interesting thing to note that fascists in the U.S. often fetishize this "3%" thing as well with "three percenter" militias.


 No.2936387

>>2935420

>CPUSA (actual tankies despite their reputation toward being liberals)

Since when?


 No.2936411

File: 8c113f39c4da26f⋯.png (5.09 MB, 2130x1600, 213:160, 8c113f39c4da26f7511b11d050….png)

I would join a disciplined ML or MLM group in my area but they don't exist and all I have to work with are DSA, I hope I can find some like minded people at the general meeting so we can peel off and find new leadership


 No.2936422

>>2936411

DSA sucks, but I think it is better to work with a shitty group doing actual political work over your average LARP group.


 No.2936530

>>2936527

>China is an entirely reactionary, bourgeois power that needs to be toppled

Yes, but China needs a proletarian revolution to replace the 'red' bourgeoisie, not a US imperialist backed regime.


 No.2936534

>>2936531

Yeah dengists are either rats or idiots


 No.2936537

>>2936422

Attitudes like that are why genuine communist parties don't get off the ground in the US


 No.2936538

>>2936537

Yeah fuck the DSA, I'd only join it to suck members off of it and convert those who aren't complete oppurtunists


 No.2936542

>>2936538

>fuck the DSA

>I'd only join it to suck members off

Nice


 No.2936546

>>2936542

I didn't mean give them oral sex, I used suck as an euphemism for pull, and I used off not as orgasm but off of the DSA.

Genuinely didn't mean to give the impression I did.


 No.2936560

>>2936546

He knows. Anon is just having a laugh.


 No.2936564

File: 58e1f81f3fe96db⋯.png (130.38 KB, 633x758, 633:758, ee.png)

>>2936538

>I'd only join it to suck members off


 No.2936578

>>2936546

>I didn't mean give them oral sex, I used suck as an euphemism for pull, and I used off not as orgasm but off of the DSA.

You could give them oral sex as a means of recruiting them into your Maoist sex cult


 No.2936583

>>2936578

>maoist sex cult

Sounds like heaven tbqh


 No.2936708

>>2936546

Peel off is more idiomatic


 No.2936727

>>2935366

Wat. In the second article Lih argues that Kautsky betrayed his own writings by the tome of 1917 and that Lenin thought he was implementing it properly. How is that anti Lenin?


 No.2936732

File: e19cba16bf18adc⋯.png (282.4 KB, 447x654, 149:218, 656DBFBA-31D5-45D6-8BC0-D4….png)

>>2936527


 No.2936735

>>2935345

Labor aristocrats and the State Department go hand in hand.

>>2936531

Socialism w/ Chinese characteristics seems to be doing fine. Better than anything Western leftists have come up with this century.

>>2935477

Yup, this is why any organization that is agitating for destabilization or is shilled for by the NYT is automatically suspect. Maoist and human rights groups are just going to be pumped and dumped if a color revolution ever takes off. You have to be incredibly stupid you think the outcome is going to be anything other than the replacement of the CCP w/ a comprador elite that keeps China a sweatshop. You wont even get any cool new left aesthetics, as the traitors will absolutely be virtue signaling libs that appeal to burgers.

Cathedralist China will ensure Anglo liberal capitalist hegemony for the rest of the century, but I guess the "human rights" were worth it?


 No.2936753

>>2936735

"Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" is the enemy of Palestinians, the workers and Peasants of China, and Filipinos who don't like the Duterte regime


 No.2936756

>>2936735

Socialism /w Chinese characteristics is counter-revolutionary non-sense. It's a contradiction of everything fucking Marx and Engels wrote about. All it is fucking capitalism, you rat fuck. The Shanghai Stock Exchange isn't fucking socialist. Chinese billionaires aren't fucking socialist. Working directly with the IMF isn't fucking socialism, it's fucking global capitalism.


 No.2936777

>>2936763

Come on now this is a dumb take even for a one line post.


 No.2936785

>>2936753

>"Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" is the enemy of Palestinians

Interesting, could you please point to literature from the PFLP, Hamas, Hezbollah, or another anti-Zionist resistance group that identifies China as an enemy of Palestinians?


 No.2936994

Deng was good, China is good, Xi will lead the world to a new era of socialism and dismantle the west. Ultraleftists can stay mad.


 No.2937031

>>2935420

>CPUSA (actual tankies despite their reputation toward being liberals)

Their current party chairman worked for both Obama presidential campaigns and as a precinct captain during his senate run. Their previous chairman supported Obama and joined the Democratic Party after he quit. The SEP is more tankie than CPUSA.


 No.2937036

>>2936756

Yet paradoxically China today seems to be even more of an enemy to the U.S. than before Deng Xiaoping.

>>2936756

If you're referring to Bachtell, he is no longer the chairman. The CPUSA has two co-chairs: Rossana Cambron and Joe Sims. Anyways I thought the whole thing about being a tankie from the Trotskyist and leftcom points of view is that tankies make all these concessions and compromises with bourgeois forces and blah blah


 No.2937038

>>2937031

Second meant for you


 No.2937087

>>2937036

Has the change in chairmen indicated a shift in policy in the CPUSA? I see they’re planning on reinstating the YCL.


 No.2937093

>>2937087

tbh I don't know actaully but the people I've met in the party have been preeeety damn tankie and I ran into one of their booths, and since I'm a commie they didn't just give them the usual "we are for workers" pitch but tried to woo me by noting they just purged a bunch of right-deviationists.


 No.2937097

>>2937036

>China today seems to be even more of an enemy to the U.S. than before Deng Xiaoping.

That doesn’t make it socialist.


 No.2937099

I don't think that CPUSA are just infiltrated by the FBI, they just have retarded positions like how America is going to turn into a KKK dictatorship if you don't vote for the Dems. Accusing every party ever who says something you disagree with of being FBI is the reason why socialist parties stay small. Yet people here are completely fine with going into the DSA because "at least they are not a LARP group"? Why do you think you can't do political work with a smaller but actually communist party? Do you have delusions of grandeur that you yourself will become the new AOC if just hold a few really good speeches?


 No.2937100

>>2936756

The communist party doesn't say these things are socialist. They admit they have capitalists. You guys always sound as if the CPC wants to "hide" the capitalist aspect of their economy or make mental gymnastics about how capitalists are socialists or something, when they in fact don't do that. They however argue that the socialist sector is dominant.


 No.2937103

>>2937097

True, but I don't think it's very useful to just shout "revisionist" at them or treat them in this callous way when in some important respects the Chinese haven't backslided, although on the other hand we don't want to just dismiss accusations of revisionism or treat China too lightly or ignore the ways in which they have.

>>2937099

>they just have retarded positions like how America is going to turn into a KKK dictatorship if you don't vote for the Dems

I think a whole lot of words have been shouted at people online because of the CPUSA's Bachtell's statement about the Dems although yeah I agree and it's a bit strange considering the DSA is an anti-communist organization, structurally, and basically a functional constituency of the Democrats.

My impression of much communist opinion (outside of here, because this place is bad) is that the U.S. is essentially an oligarchical-fascist structure anyways, and saying Trump and the people around him are white supremacists isn't shocking at all, really, that's just who they are. Some top Chinese officials like Wang Huning, the Politburo member and Xi advisor, has written books where he lays out the U.S. system and describes at a fascist system, basically. Of course if you say this people will say you're being hyperbolic but it's more that fascism is mainly just a weapon and how deadly and fascist the U.S. is going to be at any particular moment is contingent.


 No.2937136

>>2937093

I know that YCL criticized the main party for becoming too liberal, leading ultimately to the party under Bachtell to disband the YCL. That Bachtell is no longer chairman’s and the YCL is going to be reinstated made me wonder if this is a turn against the old liberal tendencies within the party.


 No.2937139

>>2936785

China sells and purchases arms to and from Isreal all the time, as well as investing in the parasitic economy of the Zionist entity, you can read all about it in bourgeois sources.


 No.2937223

>>2937139

Yes, China trades with Israel. It also trades with the #1 enemy of Palestinians, the USA. Now please show me a source where any of the major anti-Zionist militias call China the enemy of Palestinians.


 No.2937230

>>2937223

China is only the enemy of the palestinian people if a local militia specifically says they are?


 No.2937258

>>2937100

>They however argue that the socialist sector is dominant.

This makes no sense because socialism and capitalism can’t coexist in the same territory. Socialism is when the worker’s control the means of production, and capitalism is when the bourgeois control the means of production. Their can be no synthesis between the two.

>>2937103

>Some top Chinese officials like Wang Huning, the Politburo member and Xi advisor, has written books where he lays out the U.S. system and describes at a fascist system, basically.

Yeah and CNN claims that China is genociding muslims. Doesn’t make it true. The US, like most countries today, is a bourgeois liberal democracy. You can criticize liberal democracy without calling it fascist.


 No.2937405

>>2937230

Yes, they have much more authority than shitposters on 8chan.


 No.2937407

>>2937103

>True, but I don't think it's very useful to just shout "revisionist" at them or treat them in this callous way when in some important respects the Chinese haven't backslided

Except things have fundamentally changed since Mao’s or even Deng’s day. China no longer opposes the US on an anti-imperialist basis like they did in the past. Their confrontation is one between rival imperialist powers. Taking sides between them is like taking sides in WW1. I see very little to redeem China’s government in the eyes of socialists. Only decent argument used to defend China is the one that holds that multipolarity is desirable and that we haven’t quite reached it yet. However this argument only holds true when you concede that revolutionary defeatism should be adopted once multipolarity is achieved.


 No.2937408

>>2937405

If Palestinian militias denounced everybody who traded with the US and Israel then they’d have to denounce the whole world.


 No.2937506

>>2937408

Interesting that they don't do that then, huh. Almost as if they have a strategy, focus, discipline, etc. Unlike people ITT screaming that China of all countries is "the enemy of Palestinians."

So on the one hand, we have anti-Zionist militias who plainly say that the USA, Israel, and often some assortment of other US pawns (such as Saudi Arabia) are the enemy. On the other hand, we have 8ch shitposters blaming China. Who should I listen to?

Note I am not asking for sources as a simple rhetorical question. If you have some literature from the PFLP on the issue, for example, then I'd love to see it. But it seems you're more interested in coming up with your own denunciations rather than actually listening to the authoritative figures on the topic.


 No.2937511

>>2935368

Spain went fascist more easily because of leftist infighting.


 No.2937517

>>2937506

China isn't only guilty of supporting Isreal, but the entire imperialist system, CPI (Maoist) wrote a 40 page report on how China is an integral part of imperialism today, an enemy of it's own proletariat and the world's.


 No.2937548

File: c81d7c4d9fc2a33⋯.pdf (422.43 KB, China - A Modern Social-Im….pdf)

>>2937517

>China isn't only guilty of supporting Isreal, but the entire imperialist system, CPI (Maoist) wrote a 40 page report on how China is an integral part of imperialism today, an enemy of it's own proletariat and the world's.

I think there is a good case for that, or at very least part of it. Other parties that have criticized the CPC in this way include the Communist Party of the Philippines. Parties that haven't issued denunciations of this sort include the WPK and the Communist Party of Cuba. The various irrelevant western sects are also split on the issue of course.

Here is the report I think you're talking about, btw. It's always good to cite your sources.

This Indian site also has a good issue about China:

http://www.rupe-india.org/59/contents.html

Castro denounced Deng as a "parody of Hitler," and was completely justified in doing so. Deng was a genuine fascist infiltrator who directly collaborated with the USA, stabbing numerous 3rd world revolutionary movements in the back and even invading Vietnam. His domestic record was no better, with the destruction of the Iron Rice Bowl and schools and hospitals, a big rise in crime, prostitution, and hunger, and the transformation of China into a base for foreign sweatshops. China unquestionably became part of the global value chain, much like many of its neighbors. There is still evidence that China's military is being used against workers, for instance its contributions to UN forces that occupy Haiti.

With all that said, I still think it is ridiculous and inappropriate to start denouncing China as "the enemy of Palestinians" in a thread that's exposing regime change operations, especially when none of the people taking this stance can find any Palestinian literature denouncing China in this way. I've explained that already, but I'd like to also emphasize that this is a thread about treacherous Western Socdems shilling for regime change. Nothing that Jacobinmag or the ISO has in mind will ever do any workers in China or Palestine any good. As well, I assume these posters live in an English-speaking country. So why are they hand-crafting their own personal denunciations and stances against China?


 No.2937556

Anyone here have experience with Avakian's RCP?


 No.2937571

>>2937506

Rationalize it all you want, but the fact is that China is complicit in Israeli apartheid. The fact that Palestinians focus their anger at the more direct culprits doesn’t change the fact that China buys and sells weapons which are used to oppress Palestinians. China’s relationship to Israel is not a matter of opinion, it’s an objective fact.


 No.2937573

>>2937548

>it's always good to cite your sources

>no source for Castro quote

I would like some sauce please


 No.2937575

File: 6a1efee90e3b83f⋯.jpg (47.89 KB, 703x602, 703:602, 16864193 10210804455120398….jpg)

File: 706f01284ba6951⋯.jpg (46.5 KB, 500x379, 500:379, 17-09-03-fidel-xi_orig.jpg)

>>2936785

>>2937139

China follows the modern Russian policy of simultaneously having good relations with Israel and states that want to destroy it.

>>2937548

>>2937573

Didn't Castro continue to claim that "China is a socialist country, and Vietnam is a socialist nation as well" and call Xi Jinping "one of the strongest and most capable revolutionary leaders I have met in my life"?

https://www.telesurenglish.net/opinion/China-Is-Most-Promising-Hope-for-Third-World-Fidel-20171128-0017.html


 No.2937581

>>2937571

It's one thing to say it's complicit. It clearly is. It's another thing to say "the enemy."

>The fact that Palestinians focus their anger at the more direct culprits

And their analysis, no?

>>2937573

Here's the article/transcript where Castro compares Deng to Hilter:

https://twitter.com/RedKahina/status/1007366155009445888

>>2937575

>Didn't Castro continue to claim that "China is a socialist country, and Vietnam is a socialist nation as well" and call Xi Jinping "one of the strongest and most capable revolutionary leaders I have met in my life"?

Yes, it is worth asking what made him change his mind or his line. Whether out of his beliefs or diplomacy in a tough situation. If the latter, why is it that Western communists are absolved of a similar responsibility?


 No.2937765

>>2935345

>Ben Norton and Max Blumenthal

pot calling the kettle black, that's how you yankees say it eh

>>2936753

>the enemy of Palestinians

Because it doesn't sanction Israel and every other state that does bad things? Is it also the enemy of the Middle East, Africa and Latin America for not nuking the US and the UK?

>the workers and Peasants of China

Socialism with Chinese characteristics massively improved the lives of the workers and peasants of China.

>Filipinos who don't like the Duterte regime

Because it didn't sanction or blockade the Philippines after the Filipino people voted for him?

>>2937575

>China follows the modern Russian policy of simultaneously having good relations with Israel and states that want to destroy it.

Amazing how that's the policy of most non-Western states because it's really the "default" position and dumbshit Westerners see it as a Russian thing.


 No.2937811

>>2937765

>Because it didn't sanction or blockade the Philippines after the Filipino people voted for him?

The CCP supports Deuterte’s war against the New People’s Army.


 No.2937852

>>2937765

>"default" position

Not usually for socialist states.

>Westerner

wrong

Russia is a prominent example given their relations with the Axis of Resistance and with Israel


 No.2937855

>>2937765

>Socialism with Chinese characteristics massively improved the lives of the workers and peasants of China.

Socialism with Chinese characteristics isn't socialism.


 No.2937868

>>2935407

Many British and Australian trots share the same autistic position. To be against Salafism or a "revolution" lead by Muslims is Islamophobic to them.


 No.2937878

File: ca45554dbeef3f1⋯.jpg (72.37 KB, 620x387, 620:387, ASSAD_2639408b.jpg)

>>2937868

Are the majority of Syrians "islamophobic" and not "true Muslims" according to them?


 No.2937884

>>2937878

no, according to them evil Assad and his Alawi minority magically rule over and oppress all the good Sunni Syrians… kind of like /pol/'s jewish phantasm


 No.2937926

>>2937811

>The CCP supports Deuterte’s war against the New People’s Army.

"Supports" how?

>>2937855

Well it's not the enemy of the workers or peasants.


 No.2937955

>>2937926

They are allied to the regime.


 No.2937957

>>2937955

wow the communists dont break diplomatic relations with every other state, their bad now


 No.2937958

>>2937955

and stop saying "regime", liberal


 No.2938047

File: fbbc4964dd9fb0c⋯.jpg (21.12 KB, 540x600, 9:10, 9:11Brainlit.jpg)

>>2937958

>hurrdurr if you say a word that some liberals use your a liberal


 No.2938104

>>2937926

>Well it's not the enemy of the workers or peasants.

>19th century tier sweatshops owned by Western corporations making billions from exploiting the labour of Chinese workers

>not an enemy of the workers

Dengism is a mental illness.


 No.2938301

>>2938047

>i use the bad word for all governments that the western establishment dislikes, but im not a liberal


 No.2938303

>>2938104

800 million people lifted from poverty

full communism by 2050


 No.2938305

File: dd225900312a80f⋯.jpg (56.27 KB, 500x382, 250:191, khrushchevcorn.jpg)

>>2938303

>communism by 1981


 No.2938306

>>2938305

To be fair, the Chinese don't claim they'll reach communism by 2050, just that what they call the primary stage of socialism will presumably be replaced with a higher stage, while still remaining socialism.


 No.2938307

>>2938306

How do you peacefully remove or disenfranchise the economic elite of the PRC (who would oppose any sort of moves towards nationalization) when economic power always translates into political power?


 No.2938328

>>2938307

Second cultural revolution


 No.2938329

>>2938328

Just keep having them until everyone gets it!


 No.2938332

>>2938329

It's not a matter of "you get and believe in Mao Zedong Thought", it's that if you poke your head out and say dumb shit you're getting a dunce cap and a big character poster if not getting beat up by red guards.


 No.2938333

>>2938332

b-but if they don't get it, kill them


 No.2938344

File: 34992cc6c64944f⋯.jpeg (22.65 KB, 474x315, 158:105, th.jpeg)

>>2938328

Do you think this little faggot will let Alibaba be natioanlized? No he won’t.


 No.2938350

>>2938333

How dedicated is the Chinese military to socialism?


 No.2938366

>>2938344

Alibaba is actually pretty cool because it abolished banks.


 No.2938369


 No.2938370

>>2935368

> Every "leftist" that isn't a Marxist-Leninist is an enemy, left unity is a myth and is undesirable.

This. Don't read any other comments. Everyone on the left has to be a gommunist. Everyone else is a neoliberal.

The OP conference is neoliberal.


 No.2938372

>>2935420

>PSL or CPUSA

These two are full of neoliberal shills most likely. Someone who is trustworthy has to create one and keep it free of the neolibeal infiltraitors.


 No.2938373

>>2938344

>Do you think this little faggot will let Alibaba be natioanlized? No he won’t.

Would he really have the power to defy the Chinese government ? And didn't Jack Ma argue for a planed economy made possible by big data ? https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/03/economic-planning-walmart-democracy-socialism


 No.2938376

>>2938344

He has such a weird face


 No.2938379

>>2938303

>800 million people lifted from poverty

No shit m8. China failed to develop under socialism like the USSR did, and so Deng just adopted capitalism in order to develop be productive forces. The success in fighting poverty in China is rooted in the development that comes from capitalism, however just like in Europe, capitalism in China will eventually outlive its usefulness and need to be replaced by socialism. You’re delusional if you think that Chinese capitalism can overcome its contradictions on its own, or that they can ever transition to socialism without some kind of revolution.


 No.2938392

File: c2cd18e6f1655a1⋯.jpeg (23.38 KB, 600x338, 300:169, jeffdrevil.jpeg)

File: 696fca626121f7b⋯.jpeg (100.84 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, littlebits.jpeg)

>>2938376

well at least he don't look like dr.evil, and his face isn't weird it's just small proportional to his head


 No.2938430

>>2938303

>800 million people lifted from poverty

>Throw 800 million people INTO poverty with Dengism

>Then give them >$1 per day in wages

>Poverty abolished epic style!


 No.2938562

>>2938379

I, uh, don't think we disagree.

Whether the stage that China is in can be properly called socialism is of little importance. Call it socialism or not-yet-socialism, today they're the ones trying hardest at reaching full communism.

>or that they can ever transition to socialism without some kind of revolution.

I reserve the term "revolution" for violent uprisings against the state. I think that the Communist Party of China can guide the eventual transition to communism.

>>2938430

>>Throw 800 million people INTO poverty with Dengism

now this is shitposting


 No.2938564

>>2938562

>today they're the ones trying hardest at reaching full communism

No they aren't. A capitalist society dominated by the bourgeoisie like China is today cannot just become communist or even socialist. Nor will the Chinese bourgeoisie accept a transition to socialism since it necessarily comes at their expense. The idea that the CPC will just flip a switch one day and implement socialism is utopian as fuck and completely opposed to the basics of Marxism. In order for that to happen then the Chinese government would have to act independently of the Chinese ruling class.


 No.2938565

>>2938307

Does it?

I mean, what is economic power really? If the party, through government, can interfere in companies, as long as the army is loyal to enforce the party's decisions how much power over their "own" capital do the titular "owners" of companies actually have? In liberal democracies the right to property is enshrined in the institutions themselves; even if the Democratic-Republican Party of the US suddenly became communist, it would be unable to legislate away the power of capitalists, or convince the courts to enforce such laws. The same is not true of China even today, in this bureaucratic aspect at least.

In countries like Brazil that aren't even trying to do socialism, some of the richest people go to prison and have considerable portions of their wealth confiscated for crimes.


 No.2938566

>>2938430

Bruh I'm not a dengist but real wages for Chinese workers have quadrupled in the last 30 years, it's shitty but it is improving, especially when you consider that real wages across the rest of the advanced capitalist world have decreased


 No.2938568

>>2938565

>Does it?

Yes and if you think it doesn't then you aren't a Marxist.

>If the party, through government, can interfere in companies, as long as the army is loyal to enforce the party's decisions how much power over their "own" capital do the titular "owners" of companies actually have?

Western countries can interfere with and nationalize companies. Why are they any less likely to spontaneously transition to socialism than China?


 No.2938573

>>2938568

Shut the fuck up american


 No.2938575

File: 45e916ef1b69245⋯.png (259.84 KB, 483x368, 21:16, 126.PNG)

>>2938573

So this is the power of right deviation.


 No.2938576

>>2938575

Let me know when the communist party in china loses power and then i'll agree with you. Until then do us all a favor and stfu


 No.2938578

>>2938568

>Yes and if you think it doesn't then you aren't a Marxist.

Yeah, real economic power, thus the US example. My question was how much real economic power does the capitalist class in China really have, or in other words how much power can the party take from them unopposed with the stroke of the pen, and if that is enough to crush whatever remains in the hands of capitalists. A revolution was not needed to abolish Lenin's New Economic Policy.

>Why are they any less likely to spontaneously transition to socialism than China?

Well because the people who lead China say they want to transition to socialism, and they seem to have real power to do so.


 No.2938589

>>2938564

>In order for that to happen then the Chinese government would have to act independently of the Chinese ruling class.

https://twitter.com/isgoodrum/status/1026976507007135744


 No.2938744

>>2938562

>>>Throw 800 million people INTO poverty with Dengism

>now this is shitposting

How is it shitposting? Deng ruined people's living standards when he destroyed the Iron Rice Bowl.


 No.2938829

>>2938373

>Would he really have the power to defy the Chinese government ?

He definitely influences them.


 No.2938838

>>2935397

Why not join the 4th international and be a Marcyite dawg?


 No.2938847

File: 854481deed9ede1⋯.jpg (181.08 KB, 750x1044, 125:174, READ BORDIGA.jpg)

>>2938576

wow riveting discourse


 No.2938863

>>2938372

>Everyone is neoliberal except me


 No.2942657

>>2937407

>Taking sides between them is like taking sides in WW1.

World would be better if German Empire won so China should be supported.


 No.2943810

>>2942657

Ease off the Kaiserreich there fam.


 No.2943824

>>2938589

All those committees are is the state directing the economy towards their goals for national development and geopolitics, rather than allow the market to go whichever way it wants. Germany and Japan had similar schemes in the 19th century, Singapore does it today, this doesn’t make them socialist. The state in China still in practice defends the institution of private property, their economy is dominated by and dependent on commodity production and thus the Chinese state is compelled via reification to behave in a way consistent with a bourgeois order. I’ll repeat, to deny the bourgeois nature of the CPC is to go against the most basic principle of Marxism: economics dictates politics, not the other way around.


 No.2943835

>>2943824

but this is Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, bro


 No.2943849

>>2938578

>My question was how much real economic power does the capitalist class in China really have, or in other words how much power can the party take from them unopposed with the stroke of the pen

That’s an irrelevant question. Plenty of western states have provisions that allow for the expropriation of private property, China is not unique in this regard. The argument that the state having the ability to expropriate property somehow makes a country socialist or even less capitalist is the same argument AnCaps make when they insist that we don’t have “real” capitalism. Second, just because the state has the power to end capitalism doesn’t mean they will. The CPC and China’s bourgeoisie have become thoroughly integrated. Much of he leadership is bourgeois (including Xi) and much of the bourgeoisie are party members. There are literal billionaires that sit on the party congress. Even those members that are non-bourgeois bureaucrats still have their position snd interests secured by the bourgeois order, so nobody in the party has any real reason or motivation to put an end to capitalism. I’m sure you’d agree that Western porkies and bureaucrats would never voluntarily abolish capitalism, so why do you think Chinese ones will? Thirdly, even if the party were to move back to socialism of its own accord (it won’t) you are completely discounting the ability of the bourgeoisie to influence politics via unofficial means ranging from lobbying to personal connections to funding political movements.

>A revolution was not needed to abolish Lenin's New Economic Policy.

The bourgeoisie requires time to rebuild itself during a period of capitalist restoration in a socialist country. The NEP was only in place for 6 years, and none of the NEP men became nearly as wealthy as China’s ruling class, many of whom rank among the richest people in the world. Furthermore none of the NEP bourgeoisie ever infiltrated the CPSU anywhere near the same extent as the Chinese porkies have the CPC. In other words, the Russian bourgeoisie wasn’t able to rebuild its power in that 6 year timeframe. Capitalist restoration took place in China over 40 years ago, and since then their power has grown to the point where the CPC leadership is composed entirely of people who are either bourgeois or bureaucrats with a stake in the bourgeois order. It’s not even remotely comparable to the NEP.

>Well because the people who lead China say they want to transition to socialism, and they seem to have real power to do so.

Lots of people have said that, but so far the only ones to deliver on it are actual revolutionaries. Sorry but I’m not willing to take a centimillionaire like Xi on his word when it comes to socialism.




[Return][Go to top][Catalog][Nerve Center][Cancer][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[]
[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / 1776q / agatha2 / choroy / dempart / fascist / freeb / vg / vichan ]