No.608620
Why has today's Left pretty much forgotten its duty of attacking religion and religious institutions?
Is it a post-Dawkins, "ugh we're not like this" type of shit?
No.608630
>>608620
We don't have a duty to attack religion unless they're acting in a way that's contrary to our economic interests.
No.608635
Blaming religion on problems that stem from material means, are you fucking stupid?
No.608636
you need to go back to reddit now op
No.608640
I just remembered that most of /leftypol/ hasn't really read Marx and will probably talk about religion being superstructure so there's no need to attack it
No.608652
>>608620
The left doesn't need to attack religion, rational people do.
>ugh we're not like this
Pretty much this.
Soft faggots feel the need to be respectful and understanding of other people's stupidity.
No.608655
>>608620
> Duty to attack religion
> leftism
No.608661
>>608620
>duty
>>608636
says the namefag
>>608640
I just remembered you need to fuck off kid
No.608666
>>608652
Many on the left today are more likely to embrace christian socialism than "active atheism". Your brain on Ideology is a dangerous thing.
No.608675
>>608666
Religion is cancer and should be abolished.
BTFO
No.608678
Religion is pretty fucking shit, its just that in the last decade the popularity of "new atheism" has reached a critical mass on the internet its no longer the contrarian position and thus no long popular on the chans.
No.608683
It's just not that valuable in terms of priorities in this day an age. If we're talking about most western nations, religious institutions hold little to no structural power anymore, and have been shown to bend to the goals of the working class should the right pressures be applied. That's not even taking into account the fact that most people aren't all that deeply religious in most western countries, and thus would not likely abandon revolutionary goals over conflicts with religious authority.
In places like Central and South America, you have movements like liberation theology which actually utilize religion as a staging ground for the unification of the working class identity. It's not perfect mind you, but it has allowed for greater mobility of its associated movements because it does not try and antagonize a deeply religious people by claiming to be out to destroy (from the perspective of someone who sees religious diligence as a prime life directive) everything they know.
Things like radical Islam are mostly a response to imperialist interventions in the region. While that doesn't justify what people have done in its name, it's only one channel by which people in that region feel they can fight back. Socialism also had some time in the limelight serving that same role, but people had grown disillusioned by the dynastic dictatorial leadership among other things, which offered an opportunity for imperialist powers to swoop in and start supporting opposition groups.
No.608695
Religion in the first world is a tool against Capitalism and not for it, therefore we shouldn't fight it.
No.608704
>>608695
>Religion in the first world is a tool against capitalism
Incorrect.
Religion is a tool used by capital to redirect the populations anger back into reinforcing state (and by effect capitals) power.
No.608709
>>608704
traditional metaphysical values fight against consumerism and individualism, the main propellers of capitalism in the 1st world.
No.608714
>>608709
>spooking against individualism
SPOOK METER HAS REACHED CRITICAL MASS
No.608716
>>608683
Dissagree.
Most of the right wingers in American (trust me I can account I live in the, deep, south) are deeply religious and will fight tooth and nail to protect that interest and the state it upholds and in effect the capital that upholds.
Most conservative politics also identify with religious policies.
>liberation theology which actually utilize religion as a staging
The exception proves the rule.
While I agree that things like Islamic state are the result of capital and state intervention in the fertile crescent that doesn't change the fact that religion is used to reinforce state power and has done so since, just about, since its inception.
The institutions of religion are just another protection for capitalism.
No.608717
>>608620
>post-Dawkins
>measuring the world with shit tier scientists
No.608727
>>608709
>traditional metaphysical values
Mother of spooks
> fight against consumerism and individualism
The abandonment for personal possessions was not for the common good, however. Jesus said to abandon your possessions to follow (blindly) into the house of the lord.
I grew up in a pretty religious house, man.
Also, you act like I would be in-favor of fighting against individualism.
Capitalism is an incredibly collectivist ideology. All direction is given from the top down and each worker is expected to follow directions with out falter or face reprimanding.
That doesn't sound like individualism to me.
No.608739
Religion is fading in many cases in places like the US (minus the evangelists). It will continue that way. New Age Atheists and edgy communists constantly agitating them about totally ending it won't help. In places in the NE young people are at the very least like "culturally catholic" where they celebrate the holidays and go to church twice a year.
Regardless of how prominent it is or isn't, we have no place attacking religion directly.
No.608749
>>608739
I'll say it again/
Religion is a tool used to reinforce state power.
Religious institutions have to go.
No.608750
>>608640
>reading anything by Marx
No.608760
>>608683
First point is interesting, but there's some problems with it.
It's true that religion holds no power in the sense that religious institutions no longer have the same authority they once had, but false consciousness of any sort is a danger in itself, even if it lacks the material support for it.
Religion, in particular, tends to exist today as a substitute for class consciousness: people who have it are more likely to be poor and uneducated, and seek religion in order to alleviate their situation. In short, their religious alienation is directly proportional to the degree of the oppression they suffer, which means that the masses who should have radical potential will have, instead, religious and other ideological mechanisms operating against this potential. It's easy for you and me to ignore that (or to neglect its importance for them) because that's not really our milieu, but they're serious about it (serious enough to donate, together, millions of dollars to preachers and institutions) and it deprives us of a very important base of support. Which is why I think that even though it's a bit redundant and passé to us, anti-religious propaganda still has a role to play in our rhetoric.
Second point, I think that Marx warned us against "Christian asceticism with a Socialist tinge" for a reason. These "left-wing" religious groups here do gather a lot of support from the poor, but the Left is not really happy with them and it's for a reason. To draw an analogy, the problems with is like the problems with reformism or the idea of a "fair" capitalism: if the main belief structure is not challenged, the people who subscribe to it can momentarily drift towards a more progressive interpretation of that belief, but eventually they will return to its standard outcome and the progressives will have achieved nothing other legitimizing it as a possible mechanism for reform. Movements like liberation theology have only succeeded in "training" its target audience to continue to respond to preachers, and expecting in vain for the well-intentioned ones.
And I agree with you about radical Islam.
No.608807
>>608640
>implying Marx thought religion was anything more than ideological superstructure
No.608813
>>608727
>Capitalism is an incredibly collectivist ideology. All direction is given from the top down and each worker is expected to follow directions with out falter or face reprimanding.
Capitalism is not an incredibly collectivist ideology, it is the antithesis of collectivism. Collectivism inevitably leads to statism, the polar opposite of capitalism.
Corporate or business hierarchies are not collectivist just because they have hierarchies and regulations. Unless the business you work for forces you to abandon all your individuality; your moral compass, passions, beliefs and the word "I". Then you should probably leave and report them to the authorities.
No.608814
Present, to the supreme revolutionary council, the pros and cons of genociding those who refuse to acknowledge there is no god in public.
Pros: more resources for everyone, average intelligence goes up, humanity will not be distracted by toughts of the afterlife, humanity has just taken huge stem towards the future,liberal tears, it attracts many young fatalistic oppressed youth to the cause
Cons: time making mass graves, guillotine sharpening some cuties who would make good collectively owned sexual workers get executed(trough prostitution is extremely reactionary and not marxist)
There is a strong historical precedent for genocide, why should communism deny this tool?
No.608820
>>608620
The Religious spook is just one of many.
If they aren't zealots, then there really isn't anything to be concerned about.
No.608828
And why would you do that? Why would you attack fellow leftists? I mean not just Christians, but why alienate any leftists?
No.608838
>>608828
>>608828
>Look at all those memes.
No.608849
>>608813
Not really sure if you're being ironic there m8.
No.608855
>>608749
so you are going to deny my freedom of speech and freedom of religion? Change your flag to a tankie.
No.608867
>>608849
I am not being "ironic".
If you're a burger flipper at Mc Donalds, you have chosen that position so you may support yourself while you work on improving yourself so to earn a better job somewhere else.
That is not collectivism, it is individualism. It is working for what you want to achieve; doing it for yourself for whatever reason you have decided.
However, if you are a burger flipper and have no passion or interest in helping yourself and instead choose to stagnate, then you're just a parasite m8 and no social or economic system will ever help you.
If you think it would be better under some fantasy like communism, then I just feel bad for you, son.
No.608875
>>608867
Das rite.
Poor people just have to work harder and lift themselves by the bootstraps :^)
No.608900
>>608620
Gee, it's almost like religious institutions like the Catholic Church no longer exercise an oppressive, hegemonic control over political life.
Seriously, anyone bitching about religion in Western Europe or blue state America is euphoric
>>608630
>>608635
this and this
No.609065
>>608630
This. Sorry edgelord, you can burn alone in hell.
No.609094
>>608717
On that dawkins is right, plato a shit.
>>608709
Holy shit, this tankie just went full reactionary.
>>>/pol/
>>608867
>mfw the only randroid I know IRL is an unemployed perma-virgin
Individual responsibility for survival is the only really "individualist" element of capitalism. Even the freedom to choose your job or what to consume are limited unless you have a decent amount of money. As for production itself, it's incredibly collectivist, more so than any preceding order. We work in massive coordinated groups in businesses that can be as large as a small country (in terms of workers employed) to produce goods that are more often than not sold to a different part of a supply chain. It's eusociality at the point of a gun. We are like bees in a fucking hive.
To top it off we are constant urged to work harder, to not steal, to not strike and to serve our countries in war. We are made to sacrifice ourselves to capital accumulation, so that the wealthy can live lives of luxury.
How the fuck is that not collectivist?
No.609181
>>608620
Because the worst religious totalitarians today are usually Muslim.
No.609195
I think this is a good time to protest the spook creation institutions. The people are willing to stand up against political proto fascists more openly now more then ever so this seems like the next logical step.
No.609206
>>608620
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with being religious, people are free to be as spooked as they like.
I do think that it remains our duty to attack the religious institutions, however. They're often a hotbed for reactionary politics and conservatism.
No.609219
File: 1458553083202.jpg (72.63 KB, 400x609, 400:609, get fucked bourgeois scum ….jpg)
>>608620
bcuz you are retarded
"But under no circumstances ought we to fall into the error of posing the religious question in an abstract, idealistic fashion, as an “intellectual” question unconnected with the class struggle, as is not infrequently done by the radical-democrats from among the bourgeoisie. It would be stupid to think that, in a society based on the endless oppression and coarsening of the worker masses, religious prejudices could be dispelled by purely propaganda methods. It would be bourgeois narrow-mindedness to forget that the yoke of religion that weighs upon mankind is merely a product and reflection of the economic yoke within society. No number of pamphlets and no amount of preaching can enlighten the proletariat, if it is not enlightened by its own struggle against the dark forces of capitalism. Unity in this really revolutionary struggle of the oppressed class for the creation of a paradise on earth is more important to us than unity of proletarian opinion on paradise in heaven.
That is the reason why we do not and should not set forth our atheism in our Programme; that is why we do not and should not prohibit proletarians who still retain vestiges of their old prejudices from associating themselves with our Party. We shall always preach the scientific world-outlook, and it is essential for us to combat the inconsistency of various “Christians”. But that does not mean in the least that the religious question ought to be advanced to first place, where it does not belong at all; nor does it mean that we should allow the forces of the really revolutionary economic and political struggle to be split up on account of third-rate opinions or senseless ideas, rapidly losing all political importance, rapidly being swept out as rubbish by the very course of economic development.
Everywhere the reactionary bourgeoisie has concerned itself, and is now beginning to concern itself in Russia, with the fomenting of religious strife—in order thereby to divert the attention of the masses from the really important and fundamental economic and political problems, now being solved in practice by the all-Russian proletariat uniting in revolutionary struggle. This reactionary policy of splitting up the proletarian forces, which today manifests itself mainly in Black-Hundred pogroms, may tomorrow conceive some more subtle forms. We, at any rate, shall oppose it by calmly, consistently and patiently preaching proletarian solidarity and the scientific world-outlook—a preaching alien to any stirring up of secondary differences."
No.609260
>>608620
theres no point tbqh. religion's effect on peoples lives are at their lowest point ever. ask any sunday church goers anything about the bible and most of them would probably ignore you or try to turn the conversation in another direction. not to mention the catholic pope is basically leftist's trump, saying populist shit to attract supporters and to appeal to younger and liberal audiences. religions and religious institutions are no longer a risk in the west at least, the only thing we need to worry about is the radical muslims.
No.609261
>>608683
this. fuck you OP
No.609286
>>608620
But fam, religion is no longer the opiate of the masses, consumption is.
No.609289
>>609094
"Plato a shit."
Anonymous internet expert
No.609294
>>608855
Dismantling religious institutions isn't the same as banning your religion. If you really think that we can allow the private churches (protestant, scientology, etc.) or the traditional ones (Catholic, Jewish, etc.) intact post-rev, you are deluding yourself.
r/radicalchsristianity
No.609299
>>609289
Idealist philosophers can suck my dick. People who think they have anything worth saying can also suck my dick.
No.609300
>>608900
>Seriously, anyone bitching about religion in Western Europe or blue state America is euphoric
Daily reminder that church and state go hand in hand in most of Eastern Europe and in Russia. They will have to go.
Daily reminder that private religions (for-profit protestants, Scientology, etc.) rampant in America will have to go.
No.609302
>>609299
Yet your cock remains terribly unsucked.
I wonder why!
No.609304
>>609302
Keep sucking idealist.
No.609308
>>609294
Lenin hat, stop being so reasonably unreasonable
No.609309
No.609310
>>608855
>So ur gonna deny mu freedums!! cherg yer flag!
Believe what ever you want but I want have theocracy ruling over my life.
And, yes, religion reconstitutes state power and state power is used to defend capital.
So, how about you stop being such a cuck for a fake magician in the sky?
No.609312
>>609310
>state power is used to defend capital
Except when, you know, it's the only weapon we have against capital.
No.609318
>>609312
Let's not go here Lenin hat.
We were along so well.
:^)
No.609319
>>609318
I know, I know, praise Xenu.
No.609320
>>609286
>religion is no longer the opiate of the masses
But it literally is. Religiosity is a good measure of how terrible a country or community is. The poor and uneducated are still the most religious. Religion is still the sigh of the oppressed creature.
In fact, when we pretend that there's nothing wrong with spending time and energy on unreal things, people in communities and countries which do waste their resources on this stuff suffer tremendously. I think american blacks would start doing a whole lot better if nobody pushed the idea on them that they should be lead by reverends and ministers, instead of, say, doctors and lawyers (whose profession concerns the real world).
No.609321
>>609320
>american blacks would start doing a whole lot better if nobody pushed the idea on them that they should be lead by reverends and ministers, instead of, say, doctors and lawyers (whose profession concerns the real world).
I think everyone would do better if no one pushed them to become anything.
No.609641
File: 1458580750404.jpg (Spoiler Image, 498.8 KB, 665x1000, 133:200, 1458429401720-2.jpg)
So many sages ЛЕНИН-sempai-fam.
Here, have a bump.