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Tags: leftism (CLICK HERE FOR MORE LEFTIST 8CHAN BOARDS), politics, activism, news

File: 1458594358070.jpg (27.74 KB, 300x225, 4:3, Oil Venezuela.jpg)

 No.609910

If Venezuela's economic problems are just caused by overreliance on oil, wouldn't a planned economy solve their problems?

 No.609914

File: 1458594458411.pdf (167.58 KB, Economic Calculation Probl….pdf)

inb4 muh economic calculation problem

I gotchu, fam


 No.609916

Explain how overrelance on oil causes the problems and how planned economy would solve them.

Also, I can think of a few more factors that are at play.


 No.609918

Venezuela doesn't have enough immigration from the Middle East. Start learning Arabic to welcome them.


 No.609923

>>609918

go to bed, /pol/


 No.609924

No, Since Venezuelan economy can`t be truly self-sufficient. This is why planned economy could never work outside of Russia.


 No.609939


 No.609943

>>609939

Using smmry.com

2 IS PLANNING TRACTABLE? Murphy summarises his argument as follows: [I]f the socialist planners really are to mimic the market outcome, they would need to publish a list containing, not merely a huge number of prices, and not merely an infinite number of prices, but rather a list containing an uncountably infinite number of prices.

In neoclassical economics the number of constraints on the equilibrium will be proportional, among other things, to the number of economic actors, n. The computational resource constituted by the actors will be proportional to n but, in the phase change region, the cost of the computation will grow as en.

Cantor introduced diagonalisation to show that the number of real numbers- that is, numbers consisting of an integer followed by an arbitrary number of decimal places-has a higher cardinality than the integers and rationals.

Of course, if the number of commodities is countable then so is the number of corresponding prices.

Clearly, while a finite number of commodities is used in production, there is an infinite number of potential commodities.

Clearly, the number of direct inputs used to manufacture any given product is only a tiny fraction of the total number of goods produced.

In the first part of Table 2 we assume that the mean number of inputs grows as the square root of the number of final outputs.


 No.609950

>>609943

tl;dr you cant make summaries of shit like this, just read the damn 16 pages.


 No.609967

Yes, Venezuela should industrialise and make sure to become self sufficient. Don't try to micromanage thought, small and medium bussiness is ok thought. Hate the game, not the player.


 No.609994

>>609967

Wrong field mate.

Also, only allow cooperatives, not small capitalists businesses.


 No.610000

>>609924

You act like it worked in Russia.


 No.610009

>>610000

They lasted for about 80 years, surviving 2 world wars and several invasions and civil wars. Are you trying to tell me it didn't work?

Waste of trips.


 No.610018

>>609924

>Venezuelan economy can`t be truly self-sufficient

wat?

>They have oil

>They have arable land

of course they can be self-sufficient.


 No.610024

>>610009

quads sorry


 No.610029

>>610018

Their iron,gold,uranium etc. production is near none. They can`t be self-sufficient.


 No.610035

File: 1458597542565.png (401.7 KB, 543x480, 181:160, Evil of communism.png)

>>610009

Not to mention that Soviet Union had massive industry and awesome science. It was making it's own computers, game consoles, own cars and own consumer goods. Contemporary Russia… LoL.

Today capitalist countries don't make much, just buy things from China.


 No.610040

>>610009

Yeah under the jack boot of stalin.

Oh and like 60 katrillion people died.


 No.610041

>>610029

Well they should at least try to be as self sufficient as possible, maximise their own industry as much as possible while only importing certain specific things they lack.


 No.610058

>>610040

Yes and?

Millions of people die under fascist regimes or capitalist states, are you implying those don't work either?

But I'll let you go back to Catalonia 3 years of pureness.


 No.610060

>>610035

>Today capitalist countries

>just buy things from China

Except for china then


 No.610064

>>610060

Well you get the point.


 No.610065

>>609994

Petit bourg are cliser to the proles in terms of class conciousness than to the big capitalists, dont fool yourself.


 No.610067

>>609910

>>610018

Argualy, their overreliance was caused by the abudance of oil and the obvious imposibiliyy of self-sufficient in such small territory. That's why Chavez pushed to created an articulated market between other countries in South America. Mercosur actual function is to create a market for compensating the lack of certain products and services in those countries, and giving them a ground to trade as a group.


 No.610070

>>610058

forgot:

Misdeed of a leader do not take away from the many years the economic system beneath it worked.

Soviet union lasted from 1922 to 1991, of which stalin only ruled from 1924 to 1952. That is 40 years of non-evil-dictators rule.


 No.610071

Their economy was neither planned nor unplanned in orthodox terms. They just fucked around like retards for over a decade. They literally did not know what they were doing.

It would be pretty hilarious if fatass hadn't called it "socialism of the 21st century" so Breitbart-esque demagogues can use it to scream and whine their usual SOSHULISM IS EBUL agenda.


 No.610074

>>610065

I don't see why we should even allow people to taste being a capitalist. If you can't run a business without exploiting workers, then don't. I get that market socialism is not "pure socialism", but at least you promote democracy in the workplace and cooperation, rather than hierarchy and exploitation.


 No.610079

>>610067

>>610067

Now, blaming Venezuela overreliance on oil is an old meme. State's funding through selling oil goes back to the 50's (at least as how it works today).

Now, anyways, the lack of initiative could be a product of market barriers on access to technology (dependence on technology because patents) and trusting way too much in Mercosur could have made that possible.


 No.610098

File: 1458598886403-0.jpg (53.83 KB, 444x416, 111:104, 1413309557638.jpg)

File: 1458598886403-1.jpg (76.05 KB, 800x386, 400:193, 7535425.jpg)

File: 1458598886403-2.jpg (33.07 KB, 550x275, 2:1, 134134235.jpg)

File: 1458598886403-3.jpg (709.66 KB, 1024x762, 512:381, 3318158.jpg)

>>610058

>>610035

.>>610035

Yeah, I knew this meme was coming.

In reality

>>610058

>Millions of people die under fascist regimes or capitalist states, are you implying those don't work either?

This may come as a surprise to you, but, Yes>>610035

.>>610035

Yeah, I knew this meme was coming.

In reality

>>610058

>Millions of people die under fascist regimes or capitalist states, are you implying those don't work either?

This may come as a surprise to you, but, Yes


 No.610100

>>610098

==FIX YOUR SHIT HOTWHEES


 No.610106

>>610098

>If I post holocaust pictures and pictures of starving people, sure it will prove my point of which I did not make any in this reply.

Ok?


 No.610121

File: 1458599399831.png (479.11 KB, 576x566, 288:283, 1456936509728.png)

>>610106

>pictures of thousands of body's piled up in mass graves from the soviet union and the holocaust mean nothing. The U.S.S.R totally worked.

>States totally work, don't mind all the bodies.

W E W


 No.610122

File: 1458599414766.jpg (49.28 KB, 543x644, 543:644, Fucking awesome!!!.jpg)

>>610098

Nice cherry picked pictures from civil war started by reactionaries and imperialists.

P.S. First pic is from the holocaust.


 No.610125

>>610121

>Anarchy grows on trees


 No.610127

>>610121

Seriously, what the hell the bolsheviks were supposed to do? How the hell could they just make the state go away, I mean the Bolsheviks were attacked since day one.


 No.610132

File: 1458599719160-0.jpg (44.64 KB, 550x404, 275:202, spanish_civil_war.jpg)

File: 1458599719161-1.jpg (76.27 KB, 960x612, 80:51, 547398_10150758746726023_1….jpg)

File: 1458599719161-2.jpg (59.79 KB, 610x447, 610:447, Slide276.jpg)

File: 1458599719162-3.jpg (58.95 KB, 450x320, 45:32, The Makhnovist Army.jpg)

>>610122

Those are specifically, cherry picked, from stalins archives.

Thank you very much.

Also, you know, the starving people are from the famine he cause by forcing collectivization.

I wonder if people would have not starved to death if Lenin wouldn't have taken over when people where collectivizing the work place.

Mean while in ancompton


 No.610136

>>610122

>first picture is from the holocaust

>Ignoring the fact Nazi Germany was a statist regime.


 No.610140

>>610127

>Seriously, what the hell the bolsheviks were supposed to do?

Leave people the fuck alone?

Not stop workers control of the means of production?

Not crush any decent under the iron boot of the state?


 No.610150

>>610140

>Leave people the fuck alone?

And let them get murdered by the invading forces? No need to organize the masses to defend themselves; as the other anon said

>Anarchy grows on trees

Shame that there would be no more trees thanks to the 13 foreign forces.


 No.610165

File: 1458601029454-0.jpg (34.08 KB, 333x218, 333:218, 200809240015[1].jpg)

File: 1458601029455-1.jpg (55 KB, 490x225, 98:45, 18072011-spain-civil-war[1….jpg)

File: 1458601029455-2.jpg (80.75 KB, 507x380, 507:380, BIG_103095015040610_00[1].jpg)

File: 1458601029455-3.jpg (41.31 KB, 500x348, 125:87, arton165-e4a97[1].jpg)

>>610132

>Mean while in ancompton

And remember, when you can't defend youself, its not your fault, its only because of those evil statist people. If everyone just played nice, we could all be friends and my system would work.


 No.610170

>>610140

>Leave people the fuck alone?

Apart from teaching iliterate peasants how to read, they did.

>Not stop workers control of the means of production?

Russian EMpire had NO means of production, plus the nation was devastated from civil war.

>Not crush any decent under the iron boot of the state?

Let imperialists crush young revoliution?


 No.610174

>>610140

>Leave people the fuck alone?

Apart from teaching iliterate peasants how to read, they did.

>Not stop workers control of the means of production?

Russian EMpire had NO means of production, plus the nation was devastated from civil war.

>Not crush any decent under the iron boot of the state?

Let imperialists crush young revoliution?

>>610132

>Also, you know, the starving people are from the famine he cause by forcing collectivization.

>Ignoring the fact that duo to ineficensy femines were near constant in Tsarist Russia.

>Ignoring the fact that femine was duo to mentioned inefisency of Tsarist Russia and the fact that the country was devastated from WW1 and Civil War

>Ignoring that when femine happened te Bolsheviks (who believed in whitering away of the state (in due time) had just taken power and didin't had that much time to fix the mess

>Ignoring that there were no femines after collectivization and the Bolsheviks fixed the Tsarist system


 No.610185

File: 1458601895390-0.jpg (145.76 KB, 1280x952, 160:119, 35635635.jpg)

File: 1458601895391-1.png (137.52 KB, 300x237, 100:79, 245346356.png)

File: 1458601895391-2.jpg (121.57 KB, 1024x751, 1024:751, 234234525.jpg)

File: 1458601895391-3.png (297.05 KB, 576x566, 288:283, 1456597321201.png)

>>610170

>Teaching peasants to read requires us to crush workers ownership over the means of production

>Teaching peasants to read requires statism

>Russian EMpire had NO means of production, plus the nation was devastated from civil war.

Lies

>Let imperialists crush young revoliution?

>Defense requires a state

>Ignoring the fact that duo to ineficensy femines were near constant in Tsarist Russia.

>Ignoring the fact that tsarist russia was a state

>Ignoring the fact that femine was duo to mentioned inefisency of Tsarist Russia and the fact that the country was devastated from WW1 and Civil War

>ignoring the fact that lenin didn't help much of shit

>Ignoring that when femine happened te Bolsheviks (who believed in whitering away of the state (in due time) had just taken power and didin't had that much time to fix the mess

>Ignoring that Withering away of the state will never happen and that they only made things worse

>>Ignoring that there were no femines after collectivization and the Bolsheviks fixed the Tsarist system

>Ignoring the fact that Stalin existed


 No.610194

>>610185

>Lies

LoL, seriousl couple small pictures supposed that Russian Empire had industry?

So millions of workers should own couple civil war damage factories?


 No.610212

>>610185

>Look they had factories

>shows pictures of a few small workshops


 No.610218

>>610165

>What even is platformism?

>Posting pictures of the actual revolution ins Spain

>Bodys are a bad thing in this case (for some reason)

>First two pictures are, literally, the revolt against the Republican government of Spain

http://global.britannica.com/event/Spanish-Civil-War

The second pictures are, literally, brown shirts getting what they had coming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_%28Spain%29

Compared to 6 million random Russian workers who died for no reason.


 No.610227

>>610140

>Just gib MoP (in a country coming straight out of feudalism, meaning these were scarce) and call it a day.

Stop embarrassing anarchists so hard.


 No.610230

File: 1458602844101.png (172.12 KB, 700x527, 700:527, what happens under anarchi….png)

This braindead ancom is litterally the stereotype of anarchism.

>MUH STATISM

>MUH STALIN

>WE DID NUTHIN WRONG ITS OTHER PEOPLE WHO DESTROYED US

>ANARCHISM WORKS GUYS TRUST ME LOOK AT CATALONIA THAT LASTED 3 WHOLE YEARS BEFORE BEING GENOCIDED


 No.610232

File: 1458602934814.jpg (198.17 KB, 1006x768, 503:384, salute.jpg)

>>610218

>The second pictures are, literally, brown shirts getting what they had coming.

>

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_%28Spain%29

The white terror was the killing of anarchists by the fascist you utter fucking moron.


 No.610234

Yeah if they weren't a bunch of chickenshits


 No.610237

>>610212

http://www.ehs.org.uk/dotAsset/62d8a367-8beb-4dd0-b21f-d98b425c6ef3.pdf

>Between 1861 and the Revolution of 1905, rural Russia experienced significant

social and economic change. Emancipation of the serfs began a sequence of reforms

designed to improve the civil rights of the rural population.

>The land reforms that

accompanied emancipation transferred property rights from the gentry and the state to the

peasantry.

>The expansion of the railway network and growing integration with global

markets led to increased regional specialization as grain exports boomed in the south and

substantial industrial growth took place in the north-central provinces

>In the late XIX — early XX century the Russian government took a number of

measures to strengthen the role of Russia in the world economy, namely: stimulation of

economic growth through industrial development, improvement of public finances,

stabilization of the ruble by the introduction of the gold standard, protectionism, and

expansion of transport infrastructure.

> This study assesses the impact of the above

mentioned measures on the formation of investment climate in Russia in 1885–1913.

The years 1885–1913 are considered as an integral period from the point of view of the

conducted economic policy, and, consequently, its impact on the investment climate. |

>It should be noted that success in the development of Russia in the late XIX — early XX

century is traditionally associated with the policies of Sergei Witte

>There was a rapid growth of cities and urban population, however urban population grew

slower than total population. The rising demand for labour in Russian cities is

unquestionable.

>W. Rostow believed that at the end of XIX — early XX century Russia has entered

a stage of take-off with self-sustained growth4. According to P.

>Gregory during 1885-1913

the growth rate accounted for 3.25% per year, and per capita — 1.75% per year5. In

comparison with the developed countries of the time

>Russia was one of the fastest growing

economies.


 No.610240

>>609914

Damn son the first bit was dense as shit but after page 5 its really good.


 No.610241

>>610232

That's what I said.


 No.610245

>>610237

Stop shitting up every thread with your kneejerk reaction to everything "statizd", you autist.

Go make your own shitty thread if you want to fuck about on russia so much.


 No.610246

>>610230

>>WE DID NUTHIN WRONG ITS OTHER PEOPLE WHO DESTROYED US

That is hilarious coming from you


 No.610252

>>610246

What? Where did I say anything like this?

Russia was not really socialist and the demise was an error of their own mistakes.

Saying that "we would have succeeded if it was not for you damn meddling capitalists" is admitting that you will never achieve socialism. All marxists attempts at socialism that went under did so because they did something wrong, be it organizing, timing or defence.

But go on, keep telling everyone your time will come one day and not learning anything.


 No.610253

>>610245

>Triggered.

:^)


 No.610258

File: 1458603433292.jpg (261.69 KB, 651x1600, 651:1600, pretending to be retarded ….jpg)


 No.610265

>>610252

But the thing is they took the labor movement with them on the way down.

And I am not saying anarchist revolutions didn't have their faults.

But did Stalin really need to under supply Spain so bad?

Did the red army ==really== need to kill the Ukrainian anarchist?

Did they really need to crush any other attempt at socialism that tried to come to fruition?

Their actions have set the communist movement back hundreds of years and it's time to fucking try something else.

>But go on, keep telling everyone your time will come one day and not learning anything.

I've learned more than enough and still have a lot of learning to do.

But keep on telling yourself the state will wither away and when the gulags land in the states remember who told you so.


 No.610273

>>610265

>But did Stalin really need to under supply Spain so bad?

>stalin this

>stalin that

Why dont you suck his dick if youre so obssed with stalin. Litterally nobody is defending stalin here.

>Their actions have set the communist movement back hundreds of years

Thats a impressive achievement, considering it only exists for a narrow 300 if you include really basic communes.

Anyway, what parts of "stalin was a shitty dictator" and "it had many faults" did you not get?


 No.610281

>>610273

>Why dont you suck his dick if youre so obssed with stalin.

>Lenin is so much better :DDDD

>Thats a impressive achievement, considering it only exists for a narrow 300 if you include really basic communes.

Future Tense, how does it work?

>Anyway, what parts of "stalin was a shitty dictator" and "it had many faults" did you not get?

Lenin and Trotsky where, literally, no better.


 No.610287

No, Venezuelas economic problems are caused by a corrupt, incompetent Government that has essentially no functional institutions and because of the sheer level of corruption and self-serving, nobody even gives a shit that the Government doesn't actually function.

Millions of tonnes of goods are being sold across the border in Columbia due too ripping off of the price controls designed too help the poor. Do you honestly believe that numerous high officials in the Government itself don't have a hand in this? You could easily crack down on smuggling yet a fucking entire YEARS supply of medical goods got across the border, hundreds of trucks.

Also doesn't help that because of the collapsed, corrupt Government institutions, that there is essentially no rule of law in Venezuela, something like 90% of crimes don't even go too court. You can murder 20 people in Venezuela and chances are you will never see a courtroom and just be allowed too roam free.

On TOP of this you have international meddling (Koch Brothers, US) which forces Venezuela too rely on oil and be unable too diversify their economy, this is called the "Resource Curse".

Insanely incompetent Government along with heavy US and US energy influence actively working against any good the Government actually does means that Venezuela is a basket case.

The PSUV could get the Government functioning again, but it would probably involve arresting 90% of the Government ministers, doing a complete clean out and then rebuilding the Government and it's institutions with transparency in mind and a strong independent corruption watchdog.


 No.610290

>>610281

>MUH LENIN

>MUH TROTSKY

Do you just keep pulling other people you hate out of thin air for the sake of your autistic argument? You are litterally the only person talking about Lenin and Trotsky.

Anyway, back to venezuelan and thanks for your input of "we need to abolish the state that will totally work" for venezuela, im pretty sure 99% of venezuelans dont agree.


 No.610303

>>610290

Cognitive Dissonance.


 No.610305

>>610303

>Freudposted crashes in again


 No.610309

File: 1458604858390.jpg (106.94 KB, 625x937, 625:937, dick.jpg)


 No.610322

>>609914

Damn this is a lot more interesting than I thought, but I need to do a whole lot of looking shit up.

Might write a small article if you could call it that about it.


 No.610328

>>610322

And i find it interesting because this mentions a system which is litterally what I advocated before.

Lange model. Very cool.


 No.612041

>>610287

>Millions of tonnes of goods are being sold across the border in Columbia due too ripping off of the price controls designed too help the poor. Do you honestly believe that numerous high officials in the Government itself don't have a hand in this?

The problem you describe is inherent to the policy and would also occur in a country you believe to have a more honest culture if they implemented the policy.

An institution gives people things they can resell at higher price. Why wouldn't they do that? It's a stupid policy. I'm not saying it must be always bad to give some people stuff below market rate, but it shouldn't be something easy to resell. If the subsidized thing is used up immediately, then this isn't an issue. Take food for example. Giving people cans of food means they can resell it, operating a soup kitchen means people have to consume the food at that place. People can't resell a service they received, eg. they can't resell an operation.

There are methods for keeping the price of certain things low that are less crude than direct price controls, like a lower sales tax on food. But keep in mind that in a society where there are poor and rich people, lowering the price of some thing by lower taxes or subsidies makes that thing cheaper for both poor and rich. It's more to the point to tackle the issue that the poor person has enough money than trying to fiddle with the prices of hundreds of different things.


 No.612060

>>612041

>operating a soup kitchen means people have to consume the food at that place

then Porky can just sell the materials of the kitchen across borders




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