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File: 1447894959854.gif (2.87 MB, 450x405, 10:9, 1444195431323.gif)

 No.12794

Can the NAP be applied preemptively? Do I really need to wait to be aggressed on when it's obvious it will happen and put myself in harms way or can I solve the problem before it happens?

 No.12922

>>12794

If someone with a knife walks up and says that they're going to stab you, a preemptive strike is perfectly ethical.


 No.12927

Hypothetical: you're concealed carrying and see a guy pull up to some guy and point a gun at him.

There are potential situations where this would just be a prank, whatever; regardless, you'd be absolutely justified in shooting the man who pulled the gun before he fired.

You would not be justified in shooting someone because of a mere suspicion they may draw a weapon on someone some day.


 No.13002

Yes you can initiate force to save yourself.


 No.13044

>"What is proportionate force?"


 No.14256

>>12794

An imminent threat of aggression is the same as aggression as the others said, guy menacing you with a knife, guy who declares he's going to pull a gun and kill you then begins reaching inside his waistband, etc.


 No.17674

It's a judgement call. Use common sense, you don't have to put up with constant threats, but you can't go around killing everyone who looks at you the wrong way. In practice, if you don't trust someone, the best solution is to have a wall between you and them.


 No.17712

File: 1455989619938-0.png (2.32 MB, 1600x1000, 8:5, doom hobbes.png)

File: 1455989619940-1.jpg (12.85 KB, 533x224, 533:224, sovereign state of war.jpg)

>>12794

The very existence of this question is why Anarcho-Capitalism cannot work.

The NAP is supposed to be the lynchpin; the one simple principle we can all follow to have a society without any other laws. The problem is that in practice, there's not just the NAP, but NAP version 1 where you can only shoot once shot at, NAP version 2 where you can shoot if someone is pointing a gun at you, NAP 3 where you can shoot if someone has a gun near you and they make threatening comments, NAP 4 where you can shoot if someone has a gun near you and you don't like each other, NAP 5 where they don't have a gun but say they are going to kill you, NAP 6 where any combination of the above but you can shoot people for trespassing on your garden, NAP 7 where you have to warn them first, NAP 8 where you have to try and remove them and not kill them, NAP 9 where you have to not injure them, and so on and so forth, since for every Ancap there is a different subtle variation on the NAP. Once you have that you lose the ability to declare it the one thing everyone can agree on so as to keep the peace.

Instead society would quickly devolve into protection agencies trying to arrest each other over different interpretations of what violated the NAP.

This is why you have a government crack everyone on the head and lay down a set of laws that everyone agrees on. Monocentric law works because coordination problems are hard, and a lack of coordination on fundamental issues where violence gets bandied about means a Hobbesian nightmare war of all against all.


 No.17714

>>17712

>This is why you have a government crack everyone on the head and lay down a set of laws that everyone agrees on.

Yeah, and then you have wannabe government version 1, wannabe government version 2, wannabe government version 3 … :^)

If you are uneasy about PDAs trying to arrest each other, you can always live in gated community where, as an internal rule, only one PDA is allowed, and you can call it government. I predict that it would be far more frequent to have gated communities where specific "varieties" of the NAP are adopted, but not a unified PDA. I could be wrong, though, and it doesn't bother me.


 No.17716

>>17712

Except there is nothing about a monopoly on force that makes it more moral.

I'd rather people have disagreements than say fuck it and do something which they know that is wrong.

Also the free market seeks efficiency so the most moral and efficient system will always take place.


 No.17723

File: 1455993785120.jpg (185.44 KB, 869x486, 869:486, 1389231085797.jpg)

>>17714

>Yeah, and then you have wannabe government version 1, wannabe government version 2, wannabe government version 3 … :^)

Yes, but then someone wins and founds a state. Usually, stable states are ones in which the boundaries of different states are based on which set of law can find its itself in enough agreement among the people willing to do violence in the population in order that said rule of law or cultural mode may be enforced.

>If you are uneasy about PDAs trying to arrest each other, you can always live in gated community where, as an internal rule, only one PDA is allowed, and you can call it government.

That's a rather small country. Probably after a period of chaos, other people would set up similar gated communities, and we'd return to a situation like Celtic European times with small tribes in hill forts. However, disagreements over the NAP are going to mean these communities fight, and they'll conquer each other until you end up pretty much back where we are now, but with a lot more death to get back here.

>>17716

>Except there is nothing about a monopoly on force that makes it more moral.

A lack of a monopoly on force means war in that area, so a monopoly is more moral than the alternative. We can then ask which monopoly would be more moral, so perhaps a lassez faire minarchy with a strong nightwatchmen state can work once more.

The Neoreactionaries have their head on straight here.

First Order (through conquest), Then Government/Law (prescribing the rights to be enforced), and only then Freedom (tweaking the law until you can have the most scope for action within the bounds of what holds the state together).

Monopoly can just as easily bring a lack of freedom, but only monopoly in law holds the possibility of freedom, since a lack of monopoly merely replaces the single, procedural, and relatively polite robber, with an absolute seething mass of violent thieves.

Polyarchy is how freedom undoes itself, because it unleashes the freedom to take away others freedom. We must take away the freedom from those people to have anything left at all. Total freedom is impossible unless you are a God.

>I'd rather people have disagreements than say fuck it and do something which they know that is wrong.

People will have disagreements by killing each other, until you settle the disagreement with someone emerging from the chaos to bring order.

>Also the free market seeks efficiency so the most moral and efficient system will always take place.

Markets only work well if property rights are well protected. States are best at doing that, because a state can lay down a consistent set of law across a whole vast territory, whereas a polyarchy scenario creates transition costs due to business owners having to account for different local laws. Business uncertainty can paralyze markets, and sudden shifts in law can make stock values plummet.

Therefore, this is as much an argument against democracy as anarchy. In democracy there are constant and ceaseless battles between interest groups to "progress" in the direction they want the state to progress. This creates uncertainty and creates a ratchet effect where the scope of the state goes outside its role as a referee. Democracy and anarchy therefore are related, and in fact, classically speaking, they are both on the left. It is only the relatively recent Anarcho-Capitalist theory that becomes so confused about things. Anarchy in practice would be the perfect democracy; rule by mob justice. All anarchism resolves to anarcho-communism, and then after that, as the dream dies, a scrabble to remake the state by warring gangs.


 No.17724

>>17723

Different anon, but I'm with you on this.

In the ancap future we'll see roving gangs raping and murdering → city-states forming for self protection → wars between city states over resources → empires forming as city-states band together → corruption and bureaucratic decay → back to where we are now.


 No.17735

File: 1456003291241.jpg (15 KB, 300x247, 300:247, 0000.jpg)

>>13002

So we can ban nuclear weapons right????

please


 No.17748

>>17724

>In the ancap future we'll see roving gangs raping and murdering

Reasoning, please?


 No.17749

File: 1456006291308.jpg (28.63 KB, 720x480, 3:2, Bulb_zach.jpg)

>>17723

>Defining anarchy as the rule by cannibal biker gangs

>"Look guys, anarchy leads to rule by cannibal biker gangs!"

>Defining democracy as rule by literal mobs

>"Holy shit, democracy is just like mob rule!"


 No.17756

>>17748

Because only the State can defend property and prevent murder! Before the State we were nothing!

All hail the State!


 No.17757

>>17723

>A lack of a monopoly on force means war in that area

First and foremost, the monopoly on force is a legal construct. You can look at it factually, of course, just like you can look whether any specific law is effectively enforced. You'd say that the monopoly on force was in effect if, as a general rule, only the legitimate authority (the state) resort to violence. This is the case when crime is effectively prevented. In other words: Effective crime prevention is necessary for a factual monopoly on force, not vice versa. You're putting the cart before the horse here.

What you'll have to do is demonstrate that a state is necessary to prevent crime.


 No.17758

>>17723

>Markets only work well if property rights are well protected. States are best at doing that, because a state can lay down a consistent set of law across a whole vast territory

Property disputes are prevented when property laws are clear to the layman. In general, they are. Every layman understands that if something is in your possession, it probably belongs to you, etc. The layman is only confused when you bring in weird legal constructs, the kind of constructs that only a state would enforce.

If a property dispute does happen, then it needs to be settled, obviously. A neutral arbitrator can do this job just as well as a government court, if not better.

I'm assuming here, for the sake of argument, that no one would deliberately attack the property of another.


 No.17854

>>17723

>Yes, but then someone wins and founds a state.

How is this better than "yes, but then someone wins and imposes his version of the NAP"?

> Usually, stable states are ones in which the boundaries of different states are based on which set of law can find its itself in enough agreement among the people willing to do violence in the population in order that said rule of law or cultural mode may be enforced.

Partially correct. A polity should be homogeneous in order to be stable. Racially heterogeneous polities tend to be unstable, even with a widespread agreement on rules, except, maybe, if those rules are precisely some variant of the NAP. Democracy, for instance, in racially heterogeneous polities will always lead to secessionist movements and/or civil war.

Notice that gated communities are polities and all these stability criteria also apply to them. What works for statist politics works even better in an ancap framework.

> That's a rather small country.

Present-day gated communities are small precisely because they are not supposed to be sovereign nations. Ancap gated communities will have whatever size is deemed optimal by ALL its members. This is because, being opt-in, they will need reasonable opt-out rules (secession or exile with full compensation), otherwise no-one will join them.

> Probably after a period of chaos

If by chaos you mean random violence and strife, there's no reason to believe that anarcho-capitalism leads to such a period. Quite the contrary, it tends to prevent those situations. Those conflicts usually involve conflicting statist entities (wannabe states).

> other people would set up similar gated communities, and we'd return to a situation like Celtic European times with small tribes in hill forts.

You don't need a hill fort when the neighboring community also believes in the NAP. The fences will not be against large scale invasions but against marauding criminals. With a modicum of police cooperation treaties between communities, little more than picket fences will be needed, sometimes not even that. Also, gated communties may be deeply nested, much like polities in general are nested (ie, nations have sub-national political divisions, down to counties).

> However, disagreements over the NAP are going to mean these communities fight, and they'll conquer each other

No. If two communities believe in the NAP, both will try to avoid conflict and none will try to conquer the other. The best real-life example of the NAP (and something like anarcho-capitalism) working in practice nowadays is the concept of "national sovereignity" in modern geopolitics, together with international law (and without a world government). Only a few "rogue nations" are causing problems, and most problems are precisely because nations (I mean countries) are not opt-in, as gated communities are (or would be).




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