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/liberty/ - Liberty

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File: 1449473221475.jpg (43.78 KB, 692x321, 692:321, 2669699590_073bec49be_o.jpg)

 No.13750

Capitalism is thinly-veiled collectivism.

Prove me wrong.

pro-tip: you can't

 No.13756

File: 1449475691983.jpg (171.99 KB, 485x750, 97:150, individual_rights_mane.jpg)

Pic related.

Directly prove that Capitalism isn't tied to individual rights first via a counter-example (that you didn't just make up in your head), then we can talk about your bait, m8.

protip: you won't.


 No.13762

>>13756

>if it says it's about individual rights it must be fact

typical porky enabler


 No.13765

File: 1449476966251.jpg (103.76 KB, 960x960, 1:1, 12311172_473303536174527_8….jpg)

>>13762

That's not a counter-example showing how Capitalism isn't for individual rights (or even showing how it's thinly-veiled collectivism).

Try again.


 No.13766

>>13765

>Individual rights refer to the liberties of each individual to pursue life and goals without interference from other individuals or the government.

Can I do whatever I want to achieve whatever goal I want in capitalism? No. Yup your system is based on a lie.


 No.13767

>>13766

Well, we prefer the term "life, liberty, and property," but I can understand how you dislike private property so I'll ignore that momentarily.

>Can I do whatever I want to achieve whatever goal I want in capitalism?

Can you?

>No. Yup your system is based on a lie.

Why not?

Can you explain how your example of why not is somehow possible/accepted under a different political philosophy?

Can you explain howso without violating the first clause in our argument in favor of individual rights being a good thing?


 No.13768

>>13767

I'd like to point out at this time that I'd rather legitimately hear out your concerns and criticisms before coming to an answer to your questions.

If this is just an effort to get a reaction out of people, then you'll be wasting both my time and yours since I'm just studying for my electrician and Russian finals right now anyways, so you should probably point that out now before we continue if that's your goal.


 No.13770

>>13767

>Why not?

To take an extreme example: so I can go shoot up a place and not be shot back at (interference)? No.

>Can you explain how your example of why not is somehow possible/accepted under a different political philosophy?

>Can you explain howso without violating the first clause in our argument in favor of individual rights being a good thing?

Irrelevant, the problem is capitalists are trying to sell me bullshit. No one can do whatever they want and not be interfered with in some way under that system. That's the problem capitalists a bunch of snake oil salesmaen like the pinkos.

>>13768

My goal is to shit on societal philosophies, left and right.

Good luck on those, man. I'm studying too. Signal processing, etc. I should probably get back to it.


 No.13771

File: 1449479696260.png (18.82 KB, 1200x800, 3:2, egoist_anarchist_flag_by_a….png)

>>13770

>To take an extreme example: so I can go shoot up a place and not be shot back at (interference)? No.

But that happens in virtually any philosophy (either the civilians are doing the "shooting back" or the state is via "law enforcement").

Plus the fact that others shoot back at you is a proof of their declaration of life, liberty, and property (in this case, via response to an attempt on their life and thus an attempt to impede their individual rights).

>Irrelevant

I'd say it's very relevant. If you want to insult criticize an ideology, the first goal is to provide an alternative, better system. Otherwise your arguments will fall on deaf ears (they still might, but at that point they're being reactionary).

>the problem is capitalists are trying to sell me no pun intended? bullshit.

What bullshit is that?

>No one can do whatever they want and not be interfered with in some way under that system.

Does a system exist where someone can do whatever they want, and not be interfered with in some way? Even the most tough-minded egoist (the philosophy) would be hard-pressed to say that actions don't have reactions. It's no different than fish swimming away from the spot where one's hand enters the water.

>My goal is to shit on societal philosophies, left and right.

Again, I'd advise you to come up with an alternative when shitting on philosophies. Though in your case specifically, I'd advise you to read up on Max Stirner's Egoist Anarchism after finals (pic related).

>Signal processing, etc. I should probably get back to it.

Sounds like all kinds of gross. Good luck to you as well, I'll let yah get back to that.


 No.13776

>>13771

>Plus the fact that others shoot back at you is a proof of their declaration of life, liberty, and property (in this case, via response to an attempt on their life and thus an attempt to impede their individual rights).

But you see how them having their rights interferes with my pursuit of doing what I want to them. Not that I want to hurt anyone, I don't.

> If you want to insult criticize an ideology, the first goal is to provide an alternative, better system.

The goal can be to get others to think of a better alternative. Or be more honest to themselves about what the current system actually provides.

But yah lets get back to this after our finals. No point in fucking over grades to "win" internet arguments. So good luck, man.


 No.13780

>>13776

>But you see how them having their rights interferes with my pursuit of doing what I want to them.

You're not arguing against any actual capitalist ideology here, you're arguing against a blatant strawman. Every radically capitalist ideology, be it anarchocapitalism or objectivism, says that you should be allowed to do whatever you want as long as it does not interfere with the rights of others.


 No.13784

>>13780

Oh like freedom of speech as long as it doesn't offend others? Gotcha.


 No.13787

>>13771

That picture is my property now.


 No.13794

>>13787

Save it, it's all yours my friend :)


 No.13797

>>13750

>claim

>prove me wrong

That's not now it works. Burden of proof.


 No.13803

>>13784

Actually, more like freedom to do whatever you want as long as you dont hurt anyone's rights. The latter part is important. You are totally allowed to harm others, so to speak, but you must not infringe on their rights.


 No.13825

>>13803

Good ol' freedom*

*some restrictions apply.


 No.13827

>>13825

Last time I checked, you objected to capitalism resorting to false advertising. Now you've gone beyond that, and literally bitch about it not giving you the freedom to murder as you see fit. That's shifting the goalposts.


 No.13830

>>13827

Nope, last time I checked freedom meant lack of restriction.


 No.13835

>>13830

>freedom

>means lack of restriction

>this is somehow bad

Give me a moral case for altruism first, faggot. Then we'll talk.


 No.13851

>>13835

No, freedom is good. I'm just pointing out how capitalism fails to provide it.

Also you get cooperation from pure egoism with enough runs of the prisoner's dilemma. The issue though is the first iteration may be the last and may be critical if we tweak the punishments.


 No.13859

>>13851

>cooperation from pure egoism

Oh, where no one can trust or depend upon each other? Sounds wonderfully inefficient and horrible.


 No.13861

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>13859

Actually under such a scenario it's easier to know what a person's motivations are. Empathy also isn't the best thing in every scenario.


 No.13865

>>13770

>>13766

Freedom is universal. That means each individual's rights must be respected, and not subsumed into a collective. Each individual person you would shoot has an individual right to life, which you have no right to violate.

Freedom =/= I can do literally anything I want.

You don't have a right to violate rights. That would be a contradiction. Your position fails the test of universalization.


 No.13866

>>13861

Prisoner's Dilemma takes the path it does because the future is uncertain. The single game argument still doesn't win out long term versus tit for tat beause not EVERYTHING is on stake from a single game. Not every decision is a war.

We just need to start applying tit for tat and respond rather than be good 100% of the time.


 No.13868

>>13865

>Freedom is universal

>Freedom =/= I can do literally anything I want.

Nope. Freedom is subjective. It is a condition on the individual, if they have no restrictions on them they are free irrespective of others.

Take the example where there are slaves in some far of land.You're not a slave and their slavery has no bearing on you. You are free when they aren't.


 No.13870

>>13868

It should be noted that the Spartans in their heavily regimented society thought they were extremely free.


 No.13881

>>13851

>No, freedom is good. I'm just pointing out how capitalism fails to provide it.

If you define absolute freedom as the freedom to rape, murder and torture, then absolute freedom is definitely not good.


 No.13911

>>13881

Is it the freedom that is bad or the action? The freedom to carry something out doesn't mean one will carry something out. An ideal humanity wouldn't need restrictions at all.


 No.13964

>>13911

Too bad humanity isn't ideal.

Nothing is fucking ideal.




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