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File: 1450371006837.png (4.28 KB, 500x250, 2:1, Oekaki.png)

 No.14076

So where do you guys stand on immigration.

Here's my view. In a free society (without a giant state with massive social spending and invasive bullshit arbitrary laws) "immigration" is called moving. If people are willing to let you onto their private property, you can move there, and it solves all the problems public property present (so many fucking problems that can only be solved arbitrarily.)

But we don't live in a free society. We live in a statist society where the poor are, by definition, parasites: "a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others."

In principle, I do not support the entrance of anyone who is willing to use the state as a third party to commit an act of aggression against me (taxation for whatever stupid bullshit like the Iraq War, drug war, public school, or money for da programs.) If we knew someone was going to come over and commit acts of aggression directly, like murder, everyone would agree that would be unacceptable, don't let them in. Yet, if this act of aggression is committed through a third party, the mafia, it's still evil. But, if that third party is the government, somehow acts of aggression are okay, it's as if the evil has been laundered through the almighty moral standard of statehood.

In practice, I am willing to accept the entrance of a specific group (religious, ethnic, national) if they are "above average" in terms of respect for private property rights/liberty. This would exclude French people (fucking socialist cunts who want to take away my right to defend myself), Muslims (need I say more), Mexicans (80% of first generations support "bigger government" can I get a fuck that with a side of dear fucking god no), most European nations actually (see France), etc.

The problem of statism is bad enough already without importing dozens of millions of parasites with no principles beyond brazen self-interest in exploiting the system for personal gain- welfare is super awesome morally because it benefits them, unless they win the lottery in which case wealth redistribution is evil… because brazen self-interest! Same thing with college students growing up and suddenly no longer supporting socialist bullshit, they have no principles except for self-interest, and I find the fact that they flip-flopped, the complete lack of moral principles, more revolting than the individual positions on wealth redistribution in and of themselves.

In a statist system, I think the interesting question is would we allow people who want to use the government to commit acts of aggression if there's no welfare state. Obviously I'm not going to endorse the entrance of millions of people who want to exist as parasites on any tax dollars I pay, but if we lived in a Jeffersonian Republic, would third worlders who want welfare and a bigger government still be a no-no?

I would say the only situation wherein I would accept the entrance of millions of people with little to no principled respect for property rights is if the government's actions were functionally independent of the desire for muh programs. A Jeffersonian Republic that imports 150 million Mexicans will soon, in practice, become Mexico 2.0. If it was a small government monarchy I would say I wouldn't give a fuck who comes in because they can't directly affect the amount of hammering the state does against my property rights.

 No.14080

Open borders plus ( and here's the really important bit) no welfare state means that productive, hard working people will be able to easily immigrate if they want to, but lazy people won't come to your country and shit everything up because the only way to make a living is to actually work.


 No.14081

I'll read your view and pick at it in a minute.

>So where do you guys stand on immigration.

Most of us believe in relative freedom of movement- that is, no one can stop you from migrating around.

Most of us either are Right-libertarians and agree with the concept of strong borders, or among our AnCaps and less-right libertarians, even though we believe in open borders, we believe in what you could call "private borders" or "microborders" where individuals have the right to discriminate, not allow people onto their property/into their privately owned towns, etc.

In the sense of microborders, "open" borders are really the only sensible option for Libertarians who follow their philosophy. A microborder will only let in an immigrant if there is a host family willing to allow them in, and only if it's not a contractual violation to do so.

Some protectionists would disagree with this, obviously.


 No.14082

>>14076

In a society that respects property rights and has a free economy, immigration would not be controlled. The only way imigration could be controlled is if everyone decided to not sell goods to the immigrants they deem unworthy. Hotel owners would not lend them rooms, shops would refuse to sell them goods, etc. If they breach private property, they would be taken care of (the "how" depends on the system the society runs on).

If a bunch of illiterate people decided to suddenly immigrate there, that would be akin to an invansion, and people would have to get together and stop them from entering, or refuse to provide services.

True Capitalism will weed out the competent from the incompetent, and will automatically filter the immigrants who do nothing. This is what America was like in the late 1800s and early 1900s. People came over in drones (but really not comparable to current numbers) by ships, and most remained on the lower rungs of society for a long time before rising up due to their own effort.

In a society with a government-controlled economy, immigration and welfare, I am against uncontrolled immigration of even harmless people because they will only leech from the system, and this only leads to long-term degradation of the economy. This is why people are running to Germany and refusing european countries with bad welfare. A United States Citizenship currently takes 15 years at minimum, and you need to be employed all those years, and can not open a personal company/ start-up based in the US if you are not a citizen, and should not have broken any major laws. This is for well-educated foreigners, and if you want a united states citizenship without much experience, and belong to one of the 50 countries with the highest immigration rates, you are basically fucked.

Meanwhile, the United States accepting 50,000 refugees is a fucking joke. Every year they allow 80,000 foreigners from small countries to get a green card, not based on merit, but a lottery. This is particularly unjust to the people from the top 50 countries, (and moreso to the United States itself) because they let uneducated people immigrate easily while the people who can work on high levels are denied admission. Shit like this makes me think there really is a an agenda behind this.


 No.14084

File: 1450378488867.png (1.65 MB, 1120x630, 16:9, we_have_a_visual.png)

>>14081

Followup:

The issue you're going to run into OP, is that you want to set up a governing body that acts rationally when all evidence points to them being irrational entities. It would be easier to make it so that an irrational government can't interfere with the way things are supposed to work.


 No.14085

>>14082

If you are going to have a state-run economy, I'm alright with giving those small-country bumpkins that aren't on the top 50 list preference (in a sort of "affirmative action" sense) IF and only if it's a merit based system. I will say that, anon. The current US immigration policy is a joke, but the popular solutions are also jokes.


 No.14086

>>14085

In the system that was followed in America in the late 1800s to the early 1900s, you needed to show that you had enough money to not be poor and die on the streets. If you didn't have enough money, you were sent back. This system works only if there is no welfare.

The system you described just adds a merit list on top. The chances of such a system being perfectly merit-based is really doubtful and would have a very small chance of being followed perfectly. This sytem is also recessive, because it denies people who have scarce resources in their countries (and might currently be low-skilled/illiterate) but could be productive citizens in this country (after years of low-paid jobs and hard work) entry.

Which "popular solutions" are you referring to?


 No.14089

>>14082

>Every year they allow 80,000 foreigners from small countries to get a green card, not based on merit, but a lottery.

And the worst part is that large corporations who want to shrink wages contract out to companies to stuff the ballots so their potential employees get green cards. H1B is one of the most corrupt, nonsensical clusterfucks of bureaucracy I've ever seen.


 No.14095

>>14086

Obviously the three main ones:

Build a wall

Open borders with forced integration

"immigration reform" that really just either makes it more of a random numbers game, or just increases the number of immigrants let in


 No.14106


 No.14173

>>14095

>Open borders with forced integration

I'm honestly puzzled by someone like Caplan who pretty much states that he wouldn't give a shit about state naturalisation programs while implying modern society is too fractured for it to work anyway. Is that his infamous autism?


 No.14186

>>14173

Or maybe it's just a double agenda infused with lies.


 No.14208

Immigration can be aggressive. It is a fact that some groups exist in the world that don't want us to have freedom. They are a threat to our liberty.

I'm not a "collectivist", but ethnic groups do have a right to inhabit their own area without being forced to compete with other ethnicities. Other cultures/races reproduce at a much faster rate than others and it's unfair to allow one race to basically wipe out another.

If you begin opening borders and opening trade routes, you're forcing people to compete in an unlevel playing field. Not all countries have free markets, some countries basically have slavery, i.e. China.


 No.15541

>>14208

>free market

>unfair competition

Nah, fam. I agree with you about immigration, but I think you're looking at it the wrong way. LIke someone said earlier, develop a society with no free handouts, and you'll scare away groups that would suck you dry, be they races or culture groups.


 No.15853

File: 1453260160302.jpg (17.48 KB, 240x360, 2:3, Nation, State, and Economy.jpg)

The nation-state has borders for its own self-preservation. A nation which becomes flooded by foreigners can not retain its national character and therefore cannot remain the nation it is. It is a nation's character (its culture, values, customs, experiences and superstitions) which engender its laws. These are by no means static, nations evolve, but a healthy nation will try and protect itself from harmful outside influences, from invaders, occupiers and colonists.

I don't know whether some people here are foolish enough to actually think a liberal nation could retain its liberal character after absorbing an indefinite number of Latins, Sub-Saharans and Muslims, but with anarchists you can never really be sure.

I know of the ideal of a proprietary civilisation and its golden gated cities but please learn how to separate ideal from reality.

Seems to me that some here just really want open-borders and are mining for any excuse to have them. The same rabble who can't stand Stefan the loony ranter.


 No.15857

>>15853

>Seems to me that some here just really want open-borders and are mining for any excuse to have them

I want closed borders, but I can't justify it. How can people collectively own an entire country of land? How can the state claim ownership of borders?


 No.15861

>>15857

They don't collectively own territory. The state is sovereign over territory. This means it can compel within the land it is sovereign without needing to claim ownership.

Your state doesn't own your home but it has it power to enforce the law even in it. It is the rule of law and the constitution which protect you from arbitrary expropriation.

And how you justify it? Opportunity cost. What do you stand to lose by not defending your borders?


 No.15872

>>15853

>"National Character"

>"Society"


 No.15877

>>15872

Bretty spooky :DDDDD


 No.15888

NO BORDERS NO NATIONS


 No.15897

>>15857

Read Hoppe's short essays on borders.

Pretty much he says that you can have discrimination and property-based borders via privately owned contract cities, then just deny blue-haired girls or trannies residency.


 No.15914

>>15872

>IDS ALL JUST ARBIDRARY SPOOGS :DDD

People like you should be deported to Africa.


 No.15957

>>15914

Why should people who are right do to Africa?


 No.15982

>>15914

then define them, retard


 No.15992

>>15982

define what?

France is not Qatar. Qatar is not Bolivia. Bolivia is not Taiwan. Refusing to acknowledge difference doesn't fucking stop differences from meaning things and affecting the world.

such a fucking spoilt spaz


 No.15993

>>15992

>this is not the same as that because of spooks

seems legit


 No.15998

>>15993

"culture, values, customs, experiences and superstitions are the same everywhere and always"

k then


 No.16000

>>15998

>posts spooks

everywhere from qatar to bolivia and back to taiwan the bourg capitalist explouts the worker, any "culture, values, customs, experiences and superstitions" are a result of this


 No.16005

>>16000

wat

>>15992

>muh "lol I gave you the cow, make the milkshake urself" argument

gr8 b8


 No.16034

>>16000

so?

if they're not "class conscious" the proles will fuck your gay commie ass up too

you just want them here to destroy the capitalist establishment, pig

>>16005

literally what


 No.16036

>>16034

>you just want them here to destroy the capitalist establishment

nothing wrong with that


 No.16039

>>16036

fine

it will be the best cure for your cultural marxism anyways


 No.16040

>>16039

>cultural marxism

great meme

dont forget we also worship satan btw


 No.16043

>>16040

"I'm a National Socialist! Not a Nazi!"

poison by any other name…


 No.16055

Holy shit this spooked guy is fucking retarded. What the hell are you even doing on /liberty/?


 No.16108

>>16034

>literally what

read my post again.


 No.17667

File: 1455932680661.jpg (89.15 KB, 734x960, 367:480, 1441114649121.jpg)

> So where do you guys stand on immigration.

I stand on Trump's wall, looking for wetback invaders to shoot.

t. Hoppean ancap


 No.18357

>>15857

>How can people collectively own an entire country of land?

the same way they own a small piece of land

1. claiming unclaimed ressources

2. transaction

regarding the collective ownership

there are really no restriction on the legal forms you write up. but generally it wll be company like.

and as far as we can tell companies dont arrange around equal rights. rather totalitarian (but friendly) leaders and people chose to follow them. look at the silicon valley companies. but of course anything else is still possible.

recommended reading: the voluntary city


 No.18362

>>16040

>>16000

>>15993

>>16036

A cap of this is basically howtotrigger/liberty/.png


 No.18366

>>17667

It's amazing how oblivious some people are to the harmful impact illegal immigration has on an economy. Not just an economy, but in our case, public welfare, as well as politics. Illegal immigration is one of, if not the biggest problem our nation faces, yet these morons want to come in with their open border bullshit. Fuck off… I'll bet none of these fucking people have a job.


 No.18414

>>18366

or even legal immigration, if its the wrong people

heres the contents of my immigration.txt

———-

immigration is very much not a monovalent thing. so basically its not inherently good and not always good

it doesnt take a genius to see that there great people distributed all around the world, often in bad (i.e. worse than here) governments and that it would benefit all to come together (under the best government) and collaborate on technology. the fallacy then is to think that since some immigration is good, more will be better.

to achieve an understanding resembling he empirical, we have to consider the general social dynamics

[theorem of societal virtues]*

[theorem of general social dynamics among its elements]

inertia from desire to memetic ## this is relevant for the transformation of a society. also of a migrated segregaded/secular society

*** social inertia can be described as a force trending toward a cerain point (like a conservative field)

inertia (soft – for whole population) caps due to genetics, wich cause certain behavioural traits, wich influence social dynamics

inertia from habits ## this is important for immigration (first gen etc)

—-

immigration is not the thing giving us strength. it is a very specific kind of immigration

—-

instead of the marxist forced 100% blend

let it naturally evolve, see who wants to be with who, for whatever reasons, and take it from there

* theorem of societal virtues

obviously certain attributes (zero corruption, altruism, foresight, peacefulness, cooperation, work ethic, excellence ..) make a society more sucessfull than ones without those attributes or ones wich make a society less sucessful (corruption, lazyness, shortterm spending, hedonism, decadence, wastefulness, infighting, warmongering, antitechnology, embracing mediocrecity or inferiority ..)

and obviously we should spread those attributes ('culture')

this can be, and in fact is best done, peacefully

and its obviously a big mistake to dilute good culture with bad elements (attributes) from certain other cultures

the goal is to collaborate, and put together the good elements from each culture. blindly merging cultures is thus a bad idea

unfortunately it is not always so simple to break things down

important: this has nothing to do with ethnicity

let the people that want to be together find themselves/eachother and do as they please

this is mostly relevant on a small or rather localized scale i.e. companies

but of course this extends to larger scales, of large society, e.g. countries

culture some kind of median, so better culture is achieved by not diluting it with elements of lower 'score' or by excluding lower elements

add in interdepency and systematic dynamic and you get '1 drop of oil taints 1000 liters of water' kind of effect. e.g. 1 murdering psychopath on the loose is enough to make 1000 feel uncomfortable

so why would we include elements that contribute a (severly) negative dynamic to the system?

note this gives us some conclusion about immigration. from a sortof autistic economists point of view it goes like this: potential immigrants have

but of course this neglects the socio dynamic effects and thus the positive or negative effects on economy

btw: social science without math is pseudo science

examples: south korean work ethic, german work ethic, african maximum exploit ethics, altruism in north europe and china-japan-korea, violence and tribe/clan

the default culture fostered by islam/arabic countries is inherently deteroiative on society. of course thats not the only deteroiative effect. another prominent one for example is marxism.


 No.18415

>>18414

in reality there are people that pretend those differences to not exist and that 'we are all one' (marxists). following their logic we should be comfortable sharing a small cabin with an agitated king cobra. and of course genetic differences dont exist, because king cobras are just like humans. as far as genetic differences among humans go, just going by phenotype a blind man can see that (with the exception of single cell twins or clones) genetic differences do exist. do neurological differences exist? an MRT is all it takes to check. spoiler: the answer is obviously yes

you your shitty arbitrary defintion based on 'feelings' wich mostly revolves around facial recognition and whatever conenctions your amygdala makes [the amaygdala is responsible correlating situations, impressions, objects etc with emotions)

regarding tradition, (cultural) traditions obviously arent the be-all end-all. evolutioniary iteration is the holy key here.

these traditions as they exist, are what has gotten society to where it is. considering what we have achieved and the overall quality of life we lead is extraordinary, these traditions and cultural value are great. as such it is very large mistake to disregard them.

also radical changes bear the risk of dooming the entire society. as such any radical changes should be undertaken on a small scale, to see the results before comitting our entire future to the risks.

see the voluntary society

the marxist fallacy of unequovivical equivalency leads them to believe to that you can bring in just anyone and they will behave like theyre told

wich is totally not how things work

now if you let out your grandeur and become a surpremacist thinking he knows best, he knows what exactly the desireable attributes are and will be, thinks he can cast perfect judgement and wants to decide who is allowed into a society all be himself, you end up with another marxist fallacy: intellectual and moral surpemacy. some person that in its narcist ways decide it alone knows whats best for everyone else and should have the power to enforce it.

the actual solution is that everyone is responsible for themselves and what they own, has absolute authority over that and zero authority over everyone else.


 No.18416

File: 1456618749517.png (179.2 KB, 685x699, 685:699, kelly.png)

>>18415

>now if you let out your grandeur and become a surpremacist thinking he knows best, he knows what exactly the desireable attributes are and will be, thinks he can cast perfect judgement and wants to decide who is allowed into a society all be himself, you end up with another marxist fallacy: intellectual and moral surpemacy. some person that in its narcist ways decide it alone knows whats best for everyone else and should have the power to enforce it.




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