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A recognized Safe Space for liberty - if you're triggered and you know it, clap your hands!

File: 1452392866763.png (19.32 KB, 2000x1333, 2000:1333, 2000px-Ancapflag.svg.png)

 No.15234

Would unions exist in ancapistan?

 No.15238

Of course.

They just don't have government backing.


 No.15248

>>15234

they die very fast, usually


 No.15251

>>15234

Yes. There would be no government to put down striking workers for a company. Plus, kinda hard to be productive if you kill your workforce.


 No.15259

>>15251

This.

>But muh Pinkertons!

The same Pinkertons who were fucking demolished by striking workers and had to call for the National Guard?


 No.15262

Yes, and they would very quickly get rid of capitalism and establish full communism.


 No.15299

>>15262

>implying communism can be sustained


 No.15338

>>15299

do you even entropy


 No.15357

I don't understand what's wrong with unions or why the government should have anything to do with them. Isn't a union just a cooperative relationship between workers of a business who propose ultimatums to their boss? Seems voluntary.


 No.15360

>>15357

It normally would be, but there's a power balance that Unions are supposed to strike between being the voice of the worker and making sure the business is successful.

When government got involved in the process, they greatly expanded the unions and turned union bosses into fat cats that made ridiculous demands because they knew that they couldn't be fired due to government backing.

This actually just happened at Verizon a few years ago- the Union bosses made outrageous demands that ended up putting hundreds if not thousands of people out of work for something like 4 months because the employees were required by law to strike (even though none of the employees wanted to).


 No.15361

>>15360

That's insane and idiotic. I assume it that fucking moron FDR that allowed this state of affairs to pass?


 No.15362

>>15360

>>15361

I mean the 'required by law to strike' thing. That's one the most breathtakingly idiotic sentences I've ever read, it's like…bizarro world material.


 No.15370

>>15361

Pretty sure it was, but I'm too lazy to look it up (and have been awake for the lastt 24 hours)


 No.15371

How is it retarded? Unions used to be the most successful organizations against both capitalism and the state, and now they are the private economic army of the state.


 No.15374

>>15362

Completely agreed.

Here in Germany, the unions basically have a legal monopoly on pissing the boss off. If you want to quit your job, you can. If you and fourty others want to do this at the same time to pressure your boss into playing along with your rules, you can't, not unless you ask the union for permission first. The rationale behind this is that not involving the unions would make the fight between employer and employed disorderly, which sounds like an argument but really isn't.


 No.15376

>>15374

Oh shit, we need to build unions to strike against unions!

>>15360

That's so retarded. People hate corporations for having too much power when the government is bailing them out, subsidizing them, giving their unions power and squashing their competitors (Uber vs Taxi)

And then people are so statecucked that they call for more government regulations


 No.15382

>>15376

>le something bad happens

>==ban it==

the history of the world, 1900-2040


 No.15385

>>15371

Actually most of their accomplishments they stole- they didn't create the conditions for them.

Case and point: the 40-60 hour work week was the result of technological innovation and improved wealth among the lower class. Unions fought for it for years unsuccessfully, and it only became possible in the 1900s after Henry Ford and others began improving manufacturing techniques.


 No.15458

>>15385

That's not true, though.


 No.15475

>>15458

>le not true

sure thing, buddy


 No.15514

>>15382

>lol retard quit acting in your own self-interest

the history of the right, 1900-2040


 No.15521

>>15458

I hate using facebook references, but I'm too lazy to adjust it into a webm and deal with Josh's fucking with this site's code, so…

https://www.facebook.com/WeAreCapitalists/videos/450189361819278/


 No.15522


 No.15524

>>15521

>>15522

Or to quote their long-ass post that you won't read:

UNIONS: NOT the cause of our 40 hour workweek!

When economists and historians were surveyed, 88% of them either agreed or mostly agreed with the proposition that economic growth – NOT Unions – was to thank for our reduced workweek. In fact, only 5-6% thought that unions were the primary cause. [1] While this - by itself - does not constitute evidence, the following points DO:

• In 1790 about 90% of workers worked in agriculture. [2] They had almost no choice. People didn't have the luxury of ignoring food production. And until recent human history, 40 hours of labor a week generally wasn't productive enough to feed a family, so hours were long and labor was intensive.

• Thankfully, as technology made it possible, fewer farms fed greater populations, and by 1990 the share of the labor force working in agriculture had dropped to only 2.6%. This decline occurred consistently throughout the decades. [2] [3] What's noteworthy is that freedom from these long hours and back-breaking labor didn't arise because someone passed a law mandating that everyone could stop working after only 8 hours and still magically have enough food to feed their families, rather it manifested because increases in productivity allowed people to leave the farm. Two of our sources confirm this was happening, one specifically noting the increase in per capita GDP from 1800 to 1860 [4] and the other noting its increase from 1890 and on. [5]

• When people moved into manufacturing, they began working fewer hours over the decades. To confirm this, our video heavily relied upon two key sources. As the census explains, “Prior to 1913, except for the data in the Weeks Report and the Aldrich Reports, readily available data are extremely spotty and inadequate.” [6] The Weeks Report was part of the 1883 Census and the Aldrich Report was prepared for the 1893 Senate Committee on Finance. Since these are considered by most professionals to be the best sources from this era, they're what we used in our review. The data, despite well known inaccuracies, still show an undeniable trend. The average workweek declined from approximately 70 hours in 1830 to about 60 hours by 1890. [7] [8] As stated in the Weeks Report, “There having been a marked increase in the 10-hour period, and a marked DECREASE in the 12 to 13 and 13 to 14 hour periods between 1830 and 1880.” (FYI: the number of individuals working 8-9 hour work days was mostly unchanged at this point.) [7]

• This, too, was the result of productivity increases; specifically, the implementation of steam power. As a 2006 National Bureau of Economic Research study concluded, after observing historical trends in labor productivity, “Controlling for firm size, location, industry, and other establishment characteristics, steam powered establishments had higher labor productivity than establishments using hand or animal power, or water power. …The diffusion of steam power was an important factor behind the growth of labor productivity, accounting for 22 to 41 percent of that growth between 1850 and 1880…" [9]

• In the 1900's, workweek hours declined again from around 55-60 hours to only 35-40 hours by 1938. This clearly demonstrates that the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 was essentially unnecessary, at least in regards to establishing a 40 hour workweek as the standard. [10] [11] [12] [13]

• Furthermore, it was found (Whaples 1990a) that high unionization and strike levels reduced hours only to a small degree. [10] In city-level comparisons, for instance, "state maximum hours laws appear to have had little affect on average work hours, once the influences of other factors have been taken into account." "Overall, in cities where wages were one percent higher, hours were about -0.13 to -0.05 percent lower. …This suggests that during the era of declining hours, workers were willing to use higher wages to 'buy' shorter hours." [10]

• So despite the data showing a clear decline in work hours all occurring prior to Unions having successfully lobbied Congress to legislate the 40 hour standard, people still mistakenly believe that Unions were to thank for our 8 hour day and 40 hour workweek. Our graph, from the study "Trends in Hours: The U.S. from 1900 to 1950”, shows the decline from 1830 to 1990. We had already reached the 40 hour standard by 1938 WITHOUT the need for legislation. Furthermore, as this study states, the "decline was not even across workers: it benefited mostly low-wage earners who used to work the most in 1900.” [14]


 No.15526

>>15524

THE REALITY?

Labor unions had been trying for decades to legislate a shorter workweek but their goals simply weren't mathematically feasible until per capita GDP and productivity had first increased. Once they DID increase the demands of Unions were finally possible. This is far different, however, from falsely concluding that their demands were the SOURCE of said advancement. Just as in 1791 when Philadelphia carpenters went on strike seeking a 10 hour work day or in 1835 when different Philadelphia strikers did the same. Just as in 1864, when the Chicago labor movement began demanding an 8 hour work day, similar to the National Labor Union in 1866 who declared it necessary to free people from "capitalist slavery." Just as with the Illinois strike of 1867, or the 8-hour proclamation declared by President Grant in 1869, the central demands of labor organizers in the 1870's, the objectives of the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions in 1884, or the American Federation of Labor in 1888, all of whom sought an 8 hour work day, little improvement could have resulted had the economic circumstances not first allowed it. Yes, unions demanded a shorter work day, and yes, unions demanded a shorter workweek, but PRODUCTIVITY INCREASES and ECONOMIC GROWTH gave it to us.

____

Citations: 8chan won't let me post them because of URL shortener bans.


 No.15537

File: 1452657859887.png (17.19 KB, 480x400, 6:5, chart.png)

Referring to Hazlitt's writings, unions definitely have their place in a free market. If an employer is not giving his workers a wage equal to their market value, it is only right for those workers to leverage for pay equal to their labor (and not over it). However, Hazlitt also states that the need for such union leverage is often quite rare, as competing employers will likely offer better pay than their current shit bosses to take their business. In this way, the free market makes employment a competitive market. In the rare case that one single mega-corporation owns the whole region (see Harlem county coal mining operations and J.H. Blair) then unions may be a reasonable solution. No matter what though, free association should always be encouraged.


 No.15568

>>15514

>STOP THINKING!!!!!!!!1!!1!1!1

The history of the world in a nutshell, 200000 B.C. - 2040 A.D.


 No.15573

>>15568

The history of YOUR world


 No.15603

>>15573

open your eyes.


 No.15655

File: 1452855939161.jpg (146.65 KB, 1300x730, 130:73, 1443378168494.jpg)

bourgs are morally obliged to respect worker's source of income or they will burn down the factory and go work for the competition

in a purely anarchical society hierarchy is voluntary and therefore the ruling individuals are subject to any sort of moral judgement


 No.16238

YES

Its 100% compatible with the nap to form a union and strike or threaten to quit in order to get a better deal. What you can't do is stop scabs from taking your job by force.

>>15248

Usually? There has never been an ancap society.


 No.16256

>>15603

time to wake up


 No.16297

>>16256

open your eyes.


 No.16308

>>16297

Enough is enough is enough is enough


 No.17633

No, because they would be useless.


 No.18428

>>15234

yes

unless people are so agressively growing the economy that there is such a shortage of labour that companies compete fiercly enough for union to be unnecessary

see silicon valley


 No.18437

>>17633

They can raise the wages of the workers in the union.

It causes other people to be employed but maybe the union doesn't give a fuck.

I might favour a ban tbh but the left would go fucking nuts like UK in the 80s




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