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/liberty/ - Liberty

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File: 1428268514647.jpg (572.84 KB, 2084x1326, 1042:663, 1420253443090.jpg)

 No.1546

In a free and equitable society, people would not be deprived of the fruits of chattel simply because of private property.

In the Confederate South, slaves were held by wealthy individuals (laissez-faire capitalism). Under regimes like the USSR and the PRC, slaves were held in special camps performing work at the direction of, and to the benefit of, bureaucrats (state capitalism).

Under anarchism, chattel slaves would be held in common, and everyone would have a fair and equal shot at borrowing a slave or two for cleaning around the home, sexual recreation, working other sites of communally held means of production, etc.

 No.1549

>implying we would need slaves
>implying we wouldn't have service robots

 No.1555

>>1546

>having slaves


>held commonly


Take your retarded goal post moving propaganda to /leftypol/ you fucking moron.or potato /pol/, this shit won't even remotely fly here.

 No.1558

Any system that prevents members of society from having property is not laissez-faire capitalist, it's just predatory.

>USSR

>capitalism
Dude, you dense or what?

 No.1562

File: 1428277692021.jpg (37.96 KB, 461x354, 461:354, rpv spooner slavery.jpg)


 No.1738

>>1546
Slaves is wrong, dumbfuck.

Though the Confederate South was more about the Northern businesses wanting a monopoly and basically doing everything in their power to murder Southern economy.
Slavery was basically the last straw, since cheap labor was literally the only thing keeping their businesses standing. And barely at that.

 No.1749

File: 1428351045476.jpg (82.56 KB, 450x750, 3:5, MOarmcp.jpg)

>>1546
>In a free and equitable society
>slaves

How the fuck do mongoloids like yourself continue to exist from day to day?

 No.1783

>>1558
>that prevents members of society from having property…predatory

Yes, the predatory exclusion of the common man from the bounty of chattel is indeed brutish and tyrannical

>>1562
>Lysander Spooner
>Lys-an-der Spooner
>Lies, and their Spooner

The guy's name literally proclaims him as a peddler of deceit. 10/10, fooled legions.

>>1738
>Slaves is wrong, dumbfuck.

Compared to what? Your grammar, knucklehead?

>>1749

With ease and with pleasure, ya statist

 No.1785

>>1783
Compared to non-slavery, I guess. I mean, that's the easiest thing to compare it to.

 No.1790

>>1785
Well, then the original judgement is not one that I can concur with

 No.1791

>>1790
M'kay. Why?

 No.1792

>>1791
As you're just regulating away a subset of property from the user. Have to get up early, will continue tomorrow.

 No.1793

>>1792
So do you just not believe in natural rights, or just believe in natural rights for only some people?
What makes some people property and some people have the rights to own them as property?

 No.1794

>>1783

Don't mind the shitposting faggot OP, he's just going to try and straw man his way out of this one.

 No.1795

>>1793

Because this dumb faggot doesn't even into the basics of negative law theory.

 No.1802

>>1783
>Yes, the predatory exclusion of the common man from the bounty of chattel is indeed brutish and tyrannical
Something tells me you're not even trying to present an argument here.

>The guy's name literally proclaims him as a peddler of deceit. 10/10, fooled legions.

That's just about got to be the most cringeworthy thing I've ever read on here.

>Compared to what? Your grammar, knucklehead?

You want to swing the grammar-club, you shit-eating cunt?

>With ease and with pleasure, ya statist

Absolutely nothing of value in this post. Nothing.

 No.8675

File: 1440885196806.png (298.61 KB, 539x458, 539:458, 1440471949526.png)

Chattel slavery violates the NAP.


 No.8694

>Slaves were held by wealthy individuals (laissez-faire capitalism).

Retard detected. Slavery in the south was extremely subsidized by government. It was impossible for it to be profitable WITHOUT government intervention. Poor, working class whites were conscripted by state governments to track down and return slaves and if they refused, they could be jailed.


 No.8703

File: 1441045544549.jpg (99.93 KB, 440x498, 220:249, 1388111025124.jpg)

Why couldn't the spammers push shit threads like this off the board?


 No.8730

File: 1441251538746.jpg (50.24 KB, 380x380, 1:1, kek.jpg)

>>1546

Slavery? On /liberty/? You do realize who you're proposing this idea to, right?

>>1749

Holy shit, Someone actually saved and reused a piece of my OC.


 No.8750

>>8730

It's voluntary slavery. If you don't like it, you always have the choice of killing yourself, therefore you are actually free.


 No.8751

>>8750

Voluntary slavery is much more complicated than that. Both Adam Smith and Murray Rothbard have argued against the possibility of it, whereas Walter Block thought it possible.

I think one must differentiate between contractual slavery and actually owning a slave. Contracts only bind the contracting parties, in this case the master and the slave. This has many interesting consequences. For example, third parties could operate an underground railroad with impunity, contract with the slave and so on. I don't see why a contract to serve someone as a slave would not be possible.

With actual ownership, it's different. It's currently physically impossible to grant someone possession of your own body, so one could argue that this would make ownership of it impossible by default, as you can't possibly transfer your possession of it to him. Slavery is not just ownership over a body, however, but also over the mind and the soul of the person you have enslaved; here, we have the same problem.

I don't want to solve all the problems of voluntary slavery now. All I'm saying is, you should think this through before writing half-assed bait.


 No.8756

>>8750

If that's the case, then why not liberate yourself right now?


 No.8914

>>8675

This. OP is a faggot.


 No.11402

>>8751

>. It's currently physically impossible to grant someone possession of your own body

How is it less *physically* impossible than owning a car or a cow?

All ownership is a legal fiction. It's a necessary fiction for society to function, and it was probably the first "idea" that early humans had which separated them from other primates. You make a spear, you own the spear. If you live in a community you don't "take things" from other humans. But this is a made up rule. It's not like ownership exists outside the human mind.


 No.11403

>>11402

>All ownership is a legal fiction.

Possession is the holding of power over a given object. The agency of another human being prevents you from holding more power over that human being than it does over itself, hence possession of a human being is impossible. It's that simple. If you want to "own" another human being, you have to come up with another theory of property and possession.


 No.11964

>>11403

>Possession is the holding of power over a given object. The agency of another human being prevents you from holding more power over that human being than it does over itself, hence possession of a human being is impossible. It's that simple. If you want to "own" another human being, you have to come up with another theory of property and possession.

You don't think dogs and cats have agency? By what criteria do you consider human agency to be paramount. Is it because you are a human?

If an advanced alien race comes down and enslaves us, would you accept that because they have more agency than us?


 No.11967

>>8750

RADICAL FREEDOM!


 No.11968

>>11403

He already has a different idea of property.


 No.11979

>>11403

Possession is real, private property is not.


 No.11981

Economically your post makes perfect sense.

However, you cannot have slaves in a true capitalist society as that restricts a man from reaping the fruits of his labour.


 No.11983

>>11964

>You don't think dogs and cats have agency?

When did I ever imply that?

>>11979

Your point being?


 No.12047

>>11983

>When did I ever imply that?

I asked "How is it less *physically* impossible than owning a car or a cow?"and then you answered, and then I refuted your answer.

Unless you weren't actually responding to my post.


 No.12061

File: 1447135709416.gif (997.73 KB, 500x500, 1:1, epigif.gif)

You wouldn't really have slaveholding in a free society, because slaveholding implies a violent act of coercion. A slave is stripped of their rights and so are all of their descendants, thus it's implied that they aren't really free to make their own decisions and you've used violent coercion to obtain them in the first place. Slaves can't exist in a free society.

What you would likely have is two forms of servitude which would be the closest thing to a "slave" in an Anarchist society.

1) Contracted Servitude

Contracted servitude would be a matter in which your rights have not been violated, but you've agreed to set conditions that could in fact be considered "slavery." Pretty much under contracted servitude, you voluntarily give away some of your rights to another in exchange for something. That something could be food, shelter, money, experience in a trade, or any combination of the above among other things. In exchange, you agree to give your owner a monopoly over your labor for a set period of time (whether that labor is sexual, manual, intellectual, or some combination of the above). Your children are not held to that contract nor can you make your children part of said contract except in the form of adoption. Effectively you are still a free man, you're just an "apprentice" or "indentured servant" working for an individual. If that individual violates that arrangement (such as via sexual harassment/assault) you could terminate your contract at any point and the courts would uphold your decision based on an anarchist version of common law.

2) "Reparations Servitude"

If you don't own the property to sell off, and you're too lazy to actually work off your debts via payments agreed to in an arbitration/court hearing, a case could be made to voluntarily put yourself into a form of servitude to cover reparation expenses for a crime or foul that has been committed against another. This would assume that both parties consented to this form of reparations, and like in the first example, you would still have basic rights that would make you a servant, not a slave.

Could the definition between servant and slave be very thin based on the sort of contract? Probably. The major thing is that if your "owner" was causing you mental or bodily harm, you'd have a case against them in a private court of law under servitude, whereas you would have no such rights under slavery.


 No.12064

>>12061

Posting this gif is an aggression against my eyes.


 No.16337

File: 1453681626170.jpg (16.67 KB, 367x319, 367:319, 1449031749842.jpg)

Its not profitable to own slaves in a post industrial revolution world, which is why there is no more outright slavery. Most people think slavery is immoral and would not buy products of slave labor.


 No.16368

>>16337

>Most people think slavery is immoral and would not buy products of slave labor.

They would though

They probably do


 No.16475

>>12061

>but you've agreed to set conditions that could in fact be considered "slavery."

>Pretty much under contracted servitude, you voluntarily give away some of your rights to another in exchange for something. That something could be food, shelter, money, experience in a trade, or any combination of the above among other things. In exchange, you agree to give your owner a monopoly over your labor for a set period of time (whether that labor is sexual, manual, intellectual, or some combination of the above).

"agreed to"

"voluntarily"

Right. I'm pretty sure I know how this would end up.


 No.16505

>>16337

>Its not profitable to own slaves in a post industrial revolution world, which is why there is no more outright slavery. Most people think slavery is immoral and would not buy products of slave labor.

You mean how everyone from Apple to Walmart are using slave labor right now? Or isn't it not a big deal because it's occurring in the 3rd world?


 No.16510

>>16505

It's not slavery because they can jump down from the building and if they are lucky they won't get caught in one of the suicide nets.


 No.16531

>>16505

>slave labor

lol cry more, commie

They get paid, and the "lol surplus value" shit is retarded.

They choose whether they want that job or not.


 No.16551

>>16531

>lol cry more, commie

>

>They get paid, and the "lol surplus value" shit is retarded.

>

>They choose whether they want that job or not.

back to reddit, /leftypol/, SA, twitter, or wherever you came from tbh fam


 No.16567

>>16505

The alternatives to Apple/Walmart are far worse for folks in those third world countries.


 No.16579

>>16567

Or socialism.


 No.16598




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