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File: 1457300778323.png (151.87 KB, 500x497, 500:497, copyright.png)

 No.18858

Can people own ideas? If they invest their labor in the production of the idea, wouldn't the same principle apply to ideas that applies to land? Certainly movie piracy is pointless and unambiguously bad, but I can't quite get my head around perpetual patents. Could someone collect royalties on every object sold that included a wheel in some form?

 No.18859

It always struck me as funny that all of Rothbard's and Mises's stuff is freely available, but very little Marxist stuff is, beyond some of the more basic works.


 No.18862

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

Ownership is the exclusive right of use for some rivalrous good. It is the concept we use to avoid and settle disputes concerning the use of items, the use of which restricts the ability of others to use.

For instance, if one person eats an apple, they have destroyed that object as an apple and it can no longer be used in the same way. So if two people wish to eat the apple, who is ethically justified in doing so? The answer is the one who owns it (supposing that one of them does).

Ideas, however, are not rivalrous. If one man spends his time and effort to invent a wheel, and uses that idea to manufacture wheels and improve his quality of life, his ability to use that idea is in no way restricted by another man making use of the same idea with his own property. Intellectual "property" uses the concept of property (which is meant to avoid and resolve conflicts) and initiates conflicts. It grants the supposed intellectual "property owner" the ability to restrict the other man's use of his private property.

Remember that you don't own things because you worked hard for them. This isn't the Labor Theory of Property. You own things because you have a claim to that rivalrous good that is objectively prior to anyone else's.

This isn't the video I wanted, but Kinsella knows his shit.


 No.18864

From an ancap POV, the main argument against "intellectual property" is that it infringes on actual, physical property. Those two kinds of "property" are fundamentally incompatible. If you believe in full property rights over your body and homesteaded resources, so-called "intellectual property" (most clearly patents, but also other forms) become impossible as a simple corollary.

Of course, you could implement patents and other forms of IP as a covenant in a particular community, but you couldn't enforce them over other communities, which makes them far less useful. Also, there's a number of economic and practical reasons why almost nobody would join this kind of community.


 No.18871

But remember, in an anarchist society there can be an ENDEAVOR market. Just look at Patreon or crowdfunding. If you are an artist you can say

"I won't make a new album if you don't give me 7 million dollars". Maybe another artist could do the same with less money, maybe you could be forced to ask for less money, that's how the market works. The music won't belong to you (and in theory it doesn't even belong to anyone in our actual society) but you are able to get some profit from your talent.

(English is not my fist language. Sorry if i used the word endeavor wrong)


 No.18874

As far as copyright goes, you could require the customer to enter a covenant of non-duplication to purchase a work of media. With patents, a similar mechanism could be used when recieving trade secrets. This solves the dillemma of what to do when two people invent something simultaneously. I don't know what to do about trademarks though.


 No.18876

>>18858

Copyright is used to monopolize, I'm not a fan and would say that intellectual property is not real tangible property therefore it is not property. If we keep it I would make it a first to use instead of first to file.


 No.18881

>>18858

I believe that intellectual property should exist, and that it would exist in libertarian-land and even AnCapistan.

I do not believe it would be a global-spanning property nor would it be abused in the manner it is right now, with loopholes and ridiculous standards allowing things to be copyrighted indefinitely. The reason we have BJTs and FETs which perform almost the exact same damned functions.

People's ownership of ideas extend to a certain realm, such as a new technology or a special upgrade to an existing technology, but they do not last forever nor are they absolute. A court might defend someone who's starting a business only to find that a larger company stole their idea, but they certainly wouldn't support that someone if the technology had been on the market for a long enough period for the business owner to have had a chance to expand with it.


 No.18882

>>18862

>which is meant to avoid and resolve conflicts

To play devil's advocate, if an established company steals a picture of the designs to a new manufacturing method, and proceeds to use their superior funding and connections to build it and outsell the creator before the creator has a chance to even sell his product/get his name out there, does this not stifle innovation and entrepreneurship leading to more conflicts?

The current system is obviously a false one, but does a place for "intellectual property" truly not exist at all? Should the wright brothers have died bankrupt as other companies stole their airplane designs during the first few months of success (as was almost the case)?


 No.18886

>>18881

What is the moral basis for this view, if you wouldn't mind elaborating.


 No.18888

>>18882

>To play devil's advocate….

Strictly speaking, that does not stifle innovation and entrepreneurship because the innovation has already happened and the entrepreneurship still must be exercised by the company to bring the product to market.

It should also be noted that the vast majority of history, even in the Western world, has proceeded without intellectual property legislation, and this in no way limits innovation. In fact, we tend to see the most innovation and entrepreneurship in precisely those industries with the fewest intellectual property controls. It is only after those industries birth economic giants that they begin to protect their position through legislation.

Somewhere I've seen a lecture (can't find the link at the moment) that cites research showing among other things that copying an innovation takes just as much time and effort as developing it in the first place.

>but does a place for "intellectual property" truly not exist at all?

I'd say there are some institutions closely related to intellectual property which have a valid place in a free society. I think it's already been mentioned that entirely contract-based IP could occur in a limited sense, where persons agree not to copy or share information by contract.

What I see having a real place is the Trademark. I would consider the use of another entitie's trademark to constitute fraud. If you put the Gucci symbol on some bag you made, yet you do not represent Gucci, a purchaser might consider themselves defrauded and pursue damages.

I think it's important to point out 2 other things at this moment:

1) The fashion industry shows that people are willing to pay more for the name on the product, for whatever reason.

2) There's virtually no IP protecting the fashion industry, yet the pace of innovation and entrepreneurship in that sector is blistering and non-stop.

>Should the wright brothers have died bankrupt….

As above, I can tell you from my technical experience that it takes a lot more than looking at a diagram to figure out how to make something correctly. That scenario is unrealistic. So much more often, the IP holder isn't some small guy, but rather a big established business blocking other people from improving on their products to protect their profit margins. We can tell ourselves these emotionally-laden stories, but they are far from the prevailing current of reality.

And frankly, this is (again) not the Labor Theory of Property. It isn't yours because you worked so hard for it. If I invent some new awesome thing and somebody else copies it, I have no ethically consistent grounds for forcing them to stop using their property to produce goods that other people want to buy. Even if it means I lose a lot of money. The company took nothing away from me; I still have the idea.


 No.18893

>>18888

Hmm… See I don't think we're really in disagreement so much as we're not in full agreement since I consider trademarks, copyrights, and patents to all be under the branch of "intellectual property."


 No.18894

File: 1457321005110.png (354.33 KB, 800x800, 1:1, 1434256142240.png)

>>18886

This is a bit more complex.

All anarchists generally agree on the idea of bodily autonomy unless you're one of those weird AnComs that believe in collective ownership to the extent that one's body can be violated by the collective so long as it's collectively agreed on.

The idea of private property from the AnCap spectrum Natural Rights aside is the notion that bodily autonomy extends to things created via your own labor. Therefore if we can not violate others bodies because we only own our own body, then we should, morally, not be able to violate the products of others bodies because we only own the products of our own body.

In effect, if bodily autonomy is an axiom, a tautology, then the products of one's bodily autonomy are a provable theorem. These proofs and sets can be used to logically create the theorem of private property/private property rights. Via a pseudo-mathematics viewpoint.

When talking about intellectual property, one can say that no, the property created by one's imagination is not in fact a legitimate piece of property since anyone could use their bodily autonomy to create a theory of how to make something. The true question is, if something is someone's property and is actualized, does the rigorous intellectual process that theorized it extend to that application alone, or to all objects using that theory, to which the answer, I believe, is neither.

If you look at a bucket, a bucket was the intellectual property of someone, at some point, who understood that planks of wood tightly packed together created a barrier that water could not pass through. Someone, at some point in human history, had to develop the technology of the bucket using what they already knew about the natural world/natural laws of the world. Others created vases, and others simply used giant leaves or other means to achieve the same results, but the bucket was at one point someone's intellectual property, and they likely profited off of it.

At some point, the bucket became common knowledge (whether through enough of them being sold, or through sharing the knowledge is irrelevant). From this process, we can extrapolate that there is some qualifying marker of an object that changed it from the intellectual property of one person to that of everyone. There's different approaches you can take from this, but the one I prefer to refer to is the spread of said technology becoming public knowledge.

In this sense, if Bob creates a new engine that performs a function using his knowledge, then Joe, who lives in the same town, must respect the bodily autonomy used to make that engine if Bob intends to profit from his engine. If Joe wishes to take Bob's technology whether by asking or stealing that knowledge and remake it in the next town over, then it is Joe's intellectual property in the next town over, but Joe should not infringe on Bob's creation or Bob's right to sell his creation within that community, as that would create a disincentive for Bob to innovate further in the future. Every time Bob sells one of his engines, he sells a "share" of his technology to others. He is selling the rights to the knowledge that went into creating that technology to others.

Therefore is Joe's bigger company wishes to use the technology, they must first buy the technology, effectively purchasing a "share" of Bob's technology, in which Bob acknowledges that he is selling that share to Joe's company and not to Joe specifically. Alternatively, Joe's company could buy one of Bob's engines from someone he sold it to provided they did not sign a contract stating they would not.

In this sense, intellectual property rights have been born. A judge/court would hold Joe's company accountable if they simply took Bob's technology without paying for a share in Bob's knowledge via the purchase of Bob's engine, or tricked Bob into giving them a share via illusive means.

This will probably look like a jumbled mess when I'm proof reading through it, but it made sense when I was writing it.


 No.18904

File: 1457346762153.png (58.28 KB, 431x277, 431:277, mutialism pep.png)

>thinking you can own anything

fucking spooked lad


 No.18918

>>18894

Sounds like you are arguing for IP-by-covenant, but you are confusing utilitarian arguments (IP promotes innovation) with natural-rights arguments (IP is a product of one's body.. in some sense and/or to some extent).

> If you look at a bucket, a bucket was the intellectual property of someone, at some point

There were no patents when buckets were invented. Heck, much of the Industrial revolution happened before patents were a thing, and virtually all software innovation happened before software patents existed or played any significant role.

For a practical case against patents (not by ancap or even libertarian authors), see, for instance:

http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/intellectual/against.htm


 No.18922

>>18894

What if two people arrive at the same invention independently? If you come up with something independently, under your schema, it would be yours. Wouldn't patents violate this?


 No.18923

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>18888

Found the lecture. Not from an AnCap, but you can see the applications of much of the information he cites.


 No.18974

>>18882

Of course intellectual property has to exist in some form. We are moving to a digital world where more and more property can be considered to be intellectual.

I'm a programmer. If I spend 3 years of my life eating ramen noodles while working 24/7 to develop some app I intend to sell and recoup my expenses (this is literal entrepreneurship) then some large company shouldn't be able to just steal my source code and then release the app under their name having done none of the work.

This implies source code is a thing that can be stolen. Which means it is property.

If on the other hand it is no property, there is no incentive for digital entrepreneurship due to the example I listed.


 No.18975

>>18974

>If I spend 3 years of my life eating ramen noodles while working 24/7 to develop some app I intend to sell and recoup my expenses (this is literal entrepreneurship) then some large company shouldn't be able to just steal my source code and then release the app under their name having done none of the work.

Why?

>This implies source code is a thing that can be stolen.

But copying things isn't the same as stealing them. You haven't been deprived of any of your property.

>If on the other hand it is no property, there is no incentive for digital entrepreneurship due to the example I listed.

How do you figure? The lecture posted above thoroughly demolishes the "intellectual property is necessary to incentivise innovation" argument. It shows in no uncertain terms that empirically the opposite is true. This myth has been dismantled time and time again, but it keeps resurfacing from the mouths of those who simply haven't seem the honest historical examination.

I'm not dismissing the difficulty of your work, but perhaps if you are unable to profit from your labor, you've simply made a mistake in your strategy or execution of your ideas. The technological reality of the world is constantly changing. It isn't appropriate to use the cudgel of law to compensate for your failure to adapt to these realities. This isn't a moral judgement of you; it's merely an acknowledgement of the fact that even the most competent persons can make poor profit-seeking decisions, as your scenario would suggest that you have. Perhaps the use of NDAs or alternative monetization strategies would be in your best interest.


 No.18980

>>18975

>Why?

Because that's what an entrepreneur does. How do you think most inventions get made? People quit their 9-5 job and invent something in their garage or home office while living off savings.

>But copying things isn't the same as stealing them.

It most certainly can be.

You know what. Permit me to be rude for a second in order to demonstrate the insanity of your logic. Let's say you write a novel. You spend years writing this novel. While your friends were out partying, you were at home working on the story. You made sacrifices, as any entrepreneur does. After a few years you show a final draft to your friends, it's great. They love it. Your hard work will be rewarded.

But somehow, before you get it to the publisher someone else "copies" the manuscript and and gets it printed first. Makes millions and millions of dollars. Their name becomes synonymous with your book. Not stealing, right? You still have your version he has his.

The only way someone will sit there and read that story and nod his head and go "yes yes intellectual property must be demolished nothing wrong here" is if they are someone who has never worked for himself, or created anything of value in this world with his own mind or two hands.


 No.18985

>>18980

Your entire argument boils down to: "intellectual property is conceptually legitimate because if it isn't, some people might waste a lot of effort for nothing and be very sad."

That lacks any logical rigor. You're arguing from adverse consequences, which is a textbook fallacy. I agree that putting in all that effort and seeing nothing for it would suck, but the potential for you to lose your invested effort does not establish a moral right to control how others may use their property. You could very well work hard and see no returns, and I agree that would be unfortunate, but it doesn't give you the right to eliminate that risk at the expense of others, and it certainly doesn't invalidate the logical case and historical data that undermine your position.

If you want to turn a profit off of your intellectual efforts, particularly in this day and age of increasing ease of reproduction, then you're going to have to adapt your strategy to the new realities, just as horse-and-buggy drivers had to adapt to the adoption of motorcars. It sucks if you've invested all that effort and see nothing for it, and I feel for you, but that empathy does not override principles.


 No.18988

>>18985

So in my novel example you would be okay with someone "copying" your manuscript that sprang from your mind and you wrote down, and selling it for millions of dollars while you got nothing not even attribution?

Yes or no.


 No.18991

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>18988

I'd be upset about it, but I wouldn't have any moral authority to stop them. Yes I would accept it, but no I wouldn't be "okay" with it.

I might hope to prove to the general public that I was the original author, and thus secure their custom through their preference to pay the original author (as outlined in this video), but I would absolutely oppose compelling their cessation.


 No.18993

>>18980

>But somehow, before you get it to the publisher someone else "copies" the manuscript and and gets it printed first. Makes millions and millions of dollars. Their name becomes synonymous with your book. Not stealing, right? You still have your version he has his.

What if they just take your most novel and exciting idea and adapt that to their own work? Or, hell, just steal your main character? Judgements on intellectual property are arbitrary, and I highly doubt you could come up with a theory of intellectual property that would change that.

>>18988

Not the guy you were answering to, but maybe there was an implied contract, on how he shouldn't copy and sell your manuscript. If that was the case, then he can be held liable for breaking that contract.


 No.18995

>>18993

>What if they just take your most novel and exciting idea and adapt that to their own work? Or, hell, just steal your main character? Judgements on intellectual property are arbitrary, and I highly doubt you could come up with a theory of intellectual property that would change that.

Maybe. But there is an infinite difference between saying there is no intellectual property and saying there should be intellectual property, but there needs to be sensible limits.

>>18993

I don't mean implied contract. I mean you spent 3 years writing a novel, and one day you see it on the bookshelves word-for-word with some other author's name. No idea how he got it. But he's made millions of dollars and got attribution for a thing you sunk a bunch of your life into.

Today, since intellectual property rights exist, you sue them and show the courts drafts going back 3 years.

With "no intellectual property rights" you have exactly zero recourse. But who cares, it's not theft right? I firmly believe anyone who makes this argument has never made a creative work or invention of any actual value.

This poster >>18985 believes in the case if someone sells your novel as their own, you merely have a "bad business model" and you have to "adapt to the new reality." I guess the bad business model is actually making things yourself instead of "copying" things other people make (its not stealing remember).

So if it's a bad business model to write a novel compared to copying someone else's manuscript and selling it under your name which is infinitely easier, goes back to my original point of stifling innovation.


 No.18996

>>18995

The fact that you only see two possibilities; being creative and getting copied versus copying the creatives, indicates an unrealistic pessimism and a lack of imagination on your part. I specifically mentioned adapting your monetization strategy as a potential safeguard against these kinds of things, as many creative artists are learning to do today under the reality of free internet media.

>stifling innovation

You've gone back to this argument and completely ignored the part where this argument has been soundly dismissed over and over again, and that the data has been presented here in this discussion.


 No.18997

File: 1457475768127.png (39.64 KB, 825x635, 165:127, 1455671537773.png)

>>18996

>You've gone back to this argument and completely ignored the part where this argument has been soundly dismissed over and over again, and that the data has been presented here in this discussion.

Your opinion is not data.


 No.18998

>>18997

>Your opinion

>A lecture from a prominent academic citing several empirical studies is an opinion.


 No.19003

>>18862

I cosign these sentiments.

Furthermore, an examination of the origin of copyright in England shows it is crony capitalism.

>>18894

What made you think that an anime picture was appropriate for this board?

>>18997

Many people define "opinion" as anything they disagree with.


 No.19006

>>19003

>Many people define "opinion" as anything they disagree with.

I define an opinion is anything that is not fact, or derived from facts in a logical proof. This is not to say all opinions are equal, as some opinions are far more well informed or backed by evidence than others. But don't fool yourself, they are all opinions. Economic theories about hypothetical situations are not a fact, sorry.

So what I don't think is helpful is for someone to sophomorically link a hour and a half youtube video from a "prominent academic" as a debate trump card (my academic can beat up your academic!). I expect that nonsense from /pol/ or /leftypol/ but not here.


 No.19008

File: 1457485814998.png (322.46 KB, 2400x747, 800:249, intellectual property 2.png)

>>19006

> don't think is helpful is for someone to sophomorically link a hour and a half youtube video from a "prominent academic" as a debate trump card

How is citing a relevant lecture about the issue at hand not helpful? In what way is that presented as a "debate trump card"? What's sophmoric about sharing a source? The lecturer covers a lot of points relevant to the discussion, and you're basically saying that you don't have an hour and a half to dedicate to learning more about the subject, yet you still feel qualified to talk about it.

You've simply dismissed it, haven't addressed any of its content, and have continued to forward points directly refuted by it without so much as requesting a more direct presentation of the sources, which I might be willing to do if you demonstrated a willingness to participate in the discussion. But you haven't made any such requests; you've simply plowed ahead as though the information presented to you didn't exist, and chided me for being so childish as to cite the perspective so someone better qualified than either of us to speak on the subject.

Believe it or not, empirical studies are not merely opinion. Economic insight is not just groundless conjecture. You're repeating tired fallacies, and becoming indignant and making personal attacks when the flaws in your thinking are respectfully demonstrated. Let us note which of us has demonstrated a need to resort to insinuations about the character of the other parties; it hasn't been me. That doesn't necessarily prove anything, but rhetorically it doesn't make your position look very strong.


 No.19009

>>19008

>yet you still feel qualified to talk about it.

I'll bite, what makes you qualified to talk about this subject.


 No.19010

>>19009

Well considering that the difference I pointed out between us was my willingness to do the research regarding the subject which you have refused to repeat, it should be clear that my foundation for thinking I'm qualified to discuss the subject stems from the amount of study that I've done, and my willingness to examine new information.

Sage because we've gotten off-topic.


 No.19011

>>19010

Let me ask you something then that should appeal to your ancap sensibilities: have you ever created anything of value?


 No.19013

>>19011

>have you ever created anything of value?

Naturally, and I'm reasonably convinced I know where you're going with this, so I'm going to try and head you off a bit here:

I'm a very technically-minded person. I've studied and continue to work in STEM fields, so the application of intellectual work to the development of valuable goods is a huge part of my life. I fancy myself something of an inventor, in fact.

I was raised on the idea that patents were legitimate. It was just obvious. The "natural" order of things was that you invent something, you patent it, then you sell the patent to a big company and make a lot of money. I was so attached to this idea that when I started making my political transition from moderate/independent authoritarian to what eventually would be AnCap, I despaired at the thought of my precious IP and struggled desperately for ways to protect it philosophically. Unfortunately (it seemed at the time), it couldn't be done. Not with any intellectual honesty. Not after discarding so many baseless assumptions. I was so worried that there would be no way for a creative type like myself to make money.

Fortunately, my studies of history and economics showed this fear to be baseless as well. The more I researched the subject, the more I found that inventors, composers, entrepreneurs, and all sorts of creative types were well able to make plenty of money off of their creative efforts even as technology advanced, and modern creative artists are learning new ways to make money off of their art that don't rely on the antiquated publishing model. The world is advancing in response to economic needs, and I have no reason to fear that I'll be uniquely un-served by these economic forces if I pay any attention to them.

No amount of making this about my personal fears of losing years' worth of effort is going to sway my position, because I've already been through that. I've passed through the shadow of the fear-based position and arrived, through reason, at the rational position that principles don't have exceptions just because we're worried about what might happen. I'm inviting you to explore the same ground and gain these insights just as I have.


 No.19020

>>19014

>plant seeds

This analogy falls apart because food is rivalrous, whereas intellectual "property" is not, which has been the core distinction I've made all this time. The food isn't yours because you deserve it due to the hard work you did; it's yours because you are objectively responsible for its existence, and a property right must exist to resolve conflicting usage claims. There can be no conflicting usage of intellectual property because it's non-rivalrous; one person using it does not preclude another person from using it. I've presented this reasoning directly in this discussion, and I've read the dissenting literature.

>I believe fundamentally that we as human beings have a right of ownership over the following things:

But why do you believe that? What is your logical basis for supporting that idea? If you don't provide that basis, then the scope of conclusions that can be drawn from it becomes uselessly unlimited. What if you create something out of the property of another person? Does their claim override yours? Why? What does it mean to "create" something? Obviously you're not bringing new matter into existence, but reconfiguring existing matter. If you pile one rock on top of another rock, did you "create" that stack? If you teach a person a skill, have you "created" a skilled person? If not, how much or what kind of manipulation constitutes the relevant sort of "creation"? Many of these examples seem absurd, but your position as presented leaves these questions open.

>all notions of wealth are simply an abstract fiction created by societies to facilitate their operations

Strictly speaking, that isn't economically how wealth is defined, but it isn't central to the discussion, so I'm hoping we can proceed under the simple acknowledgement of objection.

>if I apply my intellect and labor to a piece of code, a work of fiction, or an invention then morally it is also my creation and I am both responsible for it and have dominion over it.

But what exactly is it that you own? How do you own an abstraction? The code isn't physical matter. You're laying claim to any and all physical matter that is configured to represent the idea you developed, even if that matter is constructed of something that somebody else already owned (remember the previous problem I pointed out along these lines? Relevant.)

What if somebody else happens to develop pretty much exactly the same idea at more or less the same time, totally independently of you? This actually happens fairly often. Who owns it? You both put in the effort. You both worked your asses off. You both applied your labor and are responsible for the outcome. Who gets to lay claim to all matter that anyone else might own which comes to represent this idea? This leaves open a number of irreconcilable conflicts, which is not the hallmark of a consistent worldview.

>if we are to live in a society that we shape through a democratic process

Well there's another avenue where I must express my opposition once more.

>stolen

Again, you're applying that word without establishing that it's relevant to the situation at hand. You've established that you've worked to produce something, and I'll even grant that the other party has acquired access to that thing without your permission, but we haven't established that you've been deprived of the thing, which is a vital part of things being stolen from you.

> But as a sentient being and morally free agent I am under no obligation to watch them in order for my opinion to remain valid.

That is far from anything I have asserted. I'm vehement about the validity of moral truth, and at no point have I asserted otherwise. I simply do not accept your particular moral claim, as you still have not established the logical foundation for it. If you don't provide me with any reason to believe your particular moral claims, then it would be unreasonable for me to accept them.


 No.19023

>>19013

Okay, now I see where you are coming from. So I genuinely thank you for playing along, as it is important to me that I actually reach the person on the other end of the Internets, who is you. But also recognize calling my position "fear-based" isn't accurate, and consider the possibility you are projecting.

To the main point, my objection was not about making money off one's creative work per se. Rather, I consider this a moral issue, which I will explain later. First, let me draw a parallel:

Presumably as an ancap you believe firmly and resolutely that private property and markets should exist. Now imagine you go to /leftypol/ and try to argue that if you plant seeds in the spring and harvest the crops in the summer, you deserve the food. But obviously you are wrong, and the food you planted and harvested belongs to all the workers. Furthermore you shouldn't insist on pretending property exists. It is a spook! And there is an infinite number of youtube videos featuring prominent academics with economic theories and empirical studies which demolish the "property should exist" argument. Read more Marx and get back to me.

Ask yourself whether there exists some Marxist version of yourself living in an alternate universe making that exact counter-argument right now, or whether you are the Ancap version of him!

Now back to the moral issue. I believe fundamentally that we as human beings have a right of ownership over the following things: ourselves (our bodies, our minds, our thoughts), and that which we create with these instruments. This moral proposition is decoupled from the question of profit, as all notions of wealth are simply an abstract fiction created by societies to facilitate their smooth operation. But even in a land without profit or money, I argue that if one finds a fallen log in the woods and carves a canoe that it is his by moral right as he created it. Likewise if one applies his intellect and labor to a piece of code, a work of fiction, or an invention then morally it is also his creation and he is both responsible for it and has dominion over it. I realize in practical terms that theft is a fact of life. Animals steal from other animals, and humans steal from other humans. Even the concept of ownership can only exist in a social context. But if we are to live in a society that we shape through a democratic process then I assert my opinion that the laws should protect creators of intellectual property from having their works outright stolen and sold for profit by those who did not have a hand in their creation!

I concede the possibility that you have any number of youtube links featuring academics citing reputable studies proving that moral truths do not exist, or that moral truths do exist and they are different than mine. But as a sentient being and free moral agent I am under no obligation to watch them in order for my opinion to remain valid. tbh, fam as they say


 No.19024

>>19020

FYI, deleted/reposted with some edits.


 No.19032

>>18985

You're the AnCap who thinks the driver isn't responsible if their passenger fails to wear a seatbelt, aren't you?


 No.19033

File: 1457517882000.jpeg (25.78 KB, 255x232, 255:232, 1453785923213.jpeg)

>>19003

Anime?

That's Ebola-chan, anon. NORMIES GTFO RIEEEEEEEEEE


 No.19034

>>19010

If you can't summarize something in your own words, it's typically not worth listening to someone else talk extensively on.

It's why I'll usually respond with danke memes and short answers that leave a bit to the imagination. Let them come back for more our of curiosity rather than by intimidation. You know as well as I do that few people have the time to waste an hour and a half, and of those who do, most would rather waste it on what they consider more fulfilling or enjoyable endeavors.

That's like, public choice theory 101 right there.


 No.19035

>>19032

>You're the AnCap who thinks the driver isn't responsible if their passenger fails to wear a seatbelt, aren't you?

Not the guy you are responding to but I don't see anything wrong with this.

If the passenger is of sound mind and body and chooses not to wear a seatbelt then that decision should be respected and the responsibility of the consequences of any accident (ie, not things like the driver purposely crashing the car) placed on them.

Of course, if the road is privately owned then the owner can stipulate rules for use of it, including the wearing of a seatbelt in which case either the driver of the passenger is held accountable depending on the actual wording of the rules.


 No.19038

>>18995

>I don't mean implied contract. I mean you spent 3 years writing a novel, and one day you see it on the bookshelves word-for-word with some other author's name. No idea how he got it. But he's made millions of dollars and got attribution for a thing you sunk a bunch of your life into.

My first question would be how the supposed author got the manuscript. Did he physically steal it? That's a violation of your property rights. Did he break into your home and photograph it? Violation of your property rights. Did he photograph inside your home while standing outside? Arguably, still a violation of your property rights. In all these cases, you already have a compensation claim and don't need intellectual property to do the trick.

If you send it to your friend or upload it on your homepage, and them someone publishes it, then that person broke an implied contract, according to which they can't copypaste your work. They can be held liable for that. You get full compensation. Intellectual property is not needed.


 No.19039

>>19023

>>19024

I don't know if these were intended as a response to my response, but they don't in any way address the points I brought up.

>>19032

If you're referring to some particular person you've had a debate with on this forum, I'm going to say I'm not that person.

>>19034

>If you can't summarize something in your own words, it's typically not worth listening to someone else talk extensively on.

Except that I had summarized it in my own words. I presented the claims in my arguments, and the video was simply an academic citing sources confirming those claims. All the dialectic content can be found in this thread. The video is just support.

Still sage because still off-topic.


 No.19050

>>19033

Answer my question. What makes you think that anime is appropriate to post here?


 No.19061

>>18858

>wouldn't the same principle apply to ideas that applies to land?

no because it is not a finite ressource

>movie piracy is unambiguously bad

no

example: netflix, youtube, streaming general

you think the record companies went along with that out of autochoice?

also montezation generally != forcing people at gun point to pay for your ideas (and deriviate work)

>Could someone collect royalties on every object sold that included a wheel in some form?

that would be pretty stupid now wouldnt it

tldr IP

remove all IP

remove all trademarks


 No.19063

>>18882

>Should the wright brothers have died bankrupt as other companies stole their airplane designs during the first few months of success (as was almost the case)?

I dont see anything wrong with adding other qualifiers than 'idea'

in fact this is already true for companies today

look at SV an/or entrepenurship courses. they talk a lot about execution. execution is everything. everyone can have an idea etc.

if you have an idea, in addition to that idea beeing food, you also need posses knowledge of and execute how to turn that idea into a company

nothing wrong with that

also there can be other monetezation models for ideas. some example

- financed in advance (by banks, venture capital, crodfunding, some nonprofit comittee or whatever finance models people coem up with i the future)

- donations for good content

- content is 'trojan horse' for monetezation e.g.

– andriod / google play

– QT its an opensurce c++ library for (advanced) GUIs, they sell support/coaching on how to use it

bonus:

weve started to believe that, because things have been around, they have a real place in this world and should continue to exist.

so when somebody asks 'but what do we do if there is no money in music?' the answer is 'are you sure professional artists need to exist?'


 No.19065

>>18974

>I'm a programmer. If I spend 3 years of my life eating ramen noodles while working 24/7 to develop some app I intend to sell and recoup my expenses (this is literal entrepreneurship) then some large company shouldn't be able to just steal my source code and then release the app under their name having done none of the work.

its your responsibility to turn that source code into a sellable product before you publicly release it

also note that source code != software product released

and stealing is still illegal

if you post the source on github gitlab and somebody copies it, thats not stealing

breaking into your appartment or decrypting your computer is still illegal. and the reading legal theorists think that the economic damage resulting from that intrusion should be included in the compensation your entitled to.

(but this would be up to whatever laws govern your property)


 No.19066

>>18988

>So in my novel example you would be okay with someone "copying" your manuscript that sprang from your mind and you wrote down, and selling it for millions of dollars while you got nothing not even attribution?

differentiate between stealing - the result of intrusion, misappropriation of the script (be that a physical journal or the 0's/1's on your computer or whatever else)

and copying - publicly aviable information

in practice:

stealing your manuscript = illegal

copying / reprinting your published book = legal

if you dont want to give the stuff away you have to come up with some monetazation model that can handle the copying

e.g. selling the physical hardcopy of the book, donations, financing in advance

its not the governments (or law enforcement general) task to handhold people who cant be arsed to make a proper monetatzion model - like record companies of old, who didnt want to handle people not buying their CDs like they used to. turns out now they have a model for music.

also friendly reminder that

weve started to believe that, because things have been around, they have a real place in this world and should continue to exist.

so when somebody asks 'but what do we do if there is no money in music?' the answer is 'are you sure professional artists need to exist?'


 No.19068

>>18998

>prominent

doesnt mean anything

>academic

doesnt proof anything

>citing several empirical studies

>empirical

>studies

its impossible to make an absolute proof with data - unless you have all the data of the system. good luck getting all the data of the universe

>is an opinion.

it can be


 No.19072

File: 1457616813867.jpg (38.05 KB, 491x414, 491:414, happy.jpg)

>Suggest privatizing the ocean, all libertarians nod and smile

>Suggest intellectual property, everyone loses their fucking mind

Never change, /liberty/.


 No.19075

>>19072

how is ocean floor + water different from landspace + air ?


 No.19078

>>18882

>Should the wright brothers have died bankrupt as other companies stole their airplane designs during the first few months of success (as was almost the case)?

That's a fun story, in fact. You know what the Wright brothers did? They actually patented pretty much every part of the airplane: the propellers, the ailerons, the wings, even the airfoil shape. They patented so much of that thing that if you wanted to make any kind of aircraft in the United States, you had to pay them handsome royalties. They were extremely litigious, and they wound up stopping their own airplane production to pursue patent infringements full-time, stopping everyone else from making airplanes as well.

As a result, pretty much nobody in America was making airplanes. Even the military couldn't develop airplanes without running into the Wright patents, and they wouldn't pay them because they had already invested so much into the Smithsonian Institute, which failed to develop the airplane first.

During this time, it was the Europeans who were able to develop airplanes, leaving the United States far behind in air power and innovation. The Wrights absolutely stood on the throat of American air industry, and America fell behind.

This continued until the United States declared war in 1917 and, discovering that they were far behind in air capability, abolished all patents in airplanes until 1975. And from 1917 to 1975, there was astonishing innovation and development in the aerospace industry, all without any intellectual property protection at all.

This is a case where you can actually see the switch turned off on IP, and watch the flow of innovation and entrepreneurship suddenly come cascading onto the scene. This is as clear a case as you could hope for.

>>19068

>its impossible to make an absolute proof with data

You know what you can do empirically? Falsify a claim. Like the studies did. Like I said they did. Yay Popper.


 No.19189

>>19078

>And from 1917 to 1975, there was astonishing innovation and development in the aerospace industry, all without any intellectual property protection at all.

Because it was all government funded. So in your world there should be no IP laws, so all innovation stems from government funding. I guess that's just ancaps for you..


 No.19192

>>19072

>Suggest privatizing the ocean, all libertarians nod and smile

>Suggest intellectual property, everyone loses their fucking mind

It's because the Internet has been overrun with millennials / students with their naive little beliefs about the world they obtained from a 3 hour youtube video they once watched while high.


 No.19210

>>19189

>it was all government funded

Um, no, it was not. Look at all the small private aircraft that were developed; the Cessnas, the Pipers, etc.. Look at all the commercial aircraft, and the private jets. There was a huge private market in aircraft.

To say that all aircraft development between 1917 and 1975 was government-funded is patently absurd.


 No.19267

>>19078

>You know what you can do empirically? Falsify a claim

yes

>Like the studies did.

no

counter proof != counter evidence

specifically, if you say something like '(within x dataset) there exist no elements a'

then finding a would absolutely falsify the statement

meanwhile the 'empirical' studies dont have the scope to make any empirical proofs about how the university is going to play out


 No.19277

>>19267

When the claim is

>intellectual property laws are needed to inentivize innovation

and the evidence shows

>innovation is higher in cases where there are fewer or no intellectual property laws

Then that evidence falsifies that claim.

They claim

>!A -> !B

The evidence is

>!A ^ B

Therefore

>!A -> !B

is false.


 No.19302

>>19277

>When the claim is

>>intellectual property laws are needed to inentivize innovation

>and the evidence shows

>>innovation is higher in cases where there are fewer or no intellectual property laws

>Then that evidence falsifies that claim.

no, because they havent gone through all the cases

what they have absoluetly proven is a correlation

if you want to make the absolute prove of causation you have to rule out every single other possibility

wich is not something one can only do if one know all the elements, the arrangements and the entire dynamics.

wich is not really feasible. one reason is because the system we are part of (the universe, possibly multiverse) is too complex for humans to comprehend wholly.


 No.19361

>>19302

You have the null hypothesis reversed. The onus is on you to prove why IP laws are necessary.


 No.19369

>>19361

not my point

my point is its not possible to make an absolute proof with data because our system is too complex (you would need all elements, their arrangements and dynamics)

also im 100% against any form of IP


 No.19392

File: 1458330687614.jpg (212.37 KB, 1920x1080, 16:9, 1453966780243.jpg)

I've always wondered if there's any scholarly research done on the question:

overall, do IP/patents spur invention/innovation or deter it?


 No.19425

>>19392

I have some text. Im into nonlinear dynamic (chaos theory) and gametheory. unfortunately not deep enough to make a formal proof, yet. unfortunately not enough time on hand to learn it right now.

Ive been googling but havent found anything. its kinda surprising there isnt anything, but then again its very possible exactly that is the case.

So making the proof is something on my list, if it prevails that there is no publication yet. I have several things on that list however, so anyone is welcome to do it instead.

the part about roughly equal entropies is a bit bumpy as-is. but Im pretty sure you can work it out mathematically to produce some logically sound result that will practically do the same thing as a 'rough equality'

——————————————————-

intellectual property hinders adoption of ecnomic optimization

this is also very important regarding 'competetion'

should you put a price on a book?

economic operations of publishing a book:

cost of writing it (opportunity etc)

cost of publishing

ev of the information published (for the world)

accumulation/transfer of money

cost of publishing is neglectible these days (for ebooks anyway)

there is no direct/inhernet value in accumulating value. if there is one insight austrians have into keynesianism its that.

indirect value is the things you can do because of acess to capital/funds YOU WOULDNT OTHERWISE HAVE ACESS TO

this depends on aviability of capital/funds otherwise

on how much capital you would actually accumulate with the price

and finally the impact of what you can actually do

considering

avialability of funds is pretty good

often the amount of money accumulated [via transfer] from (currently) fairly niche books isnt very large

impact is more difficult to quantifiy or even break down. but basically considering you cant actually efficiently buy way through things (there are (soft)caps like confirmation bias regarding public opinions etc etc, often it seems like its not that large. meanwhile the sortof killer quantative acessment is that it follows roughly the same rules of complexity as the impact of free information - so smaller initial entropy, because its contained to you, and similar runaway facter (i.e. entropy change rate) because its roughly the same complex system

a simplified way of viewing this is an exponential function [two graphs, e^x and 2e^x]

after the book is written: - should you put a price on it [the electronic version]?

yes if ev of information for the world > ev of accumulation of money

because of complexity (see chaostheory, butterfly effect) the impact of free information is actually extremely large

also similar things are true for other restricted access IP

e.g. virtual classroom




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