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Liberate tuteme ex Excelsior!

File: 1441649645440.png (757.39 KB, 1091x733, 1091:733, how_not_to_mary_sue__read_….png)

 No.6448

What do you guys have to say about Mary Sues? I've been on Tvtropes way too long until I got sick of the site, and from it, I have the impression that a lot of new writers seem to think you're not shit-tier as long as your main character is not a Mary Sue.

Personally, I don't have that much against Mary Sues. I think there are dozens of worse things to write. In fact, I think I'd prefer a magical princess who gets shit done over another boring, trite everyman every single day. I'm still starting out with any kind of serious writing, however, so I'd like to hear a few more opinions from actual e/lit/ists, too. Might prove insightful.

I'm assuming here that the concept still has any meaning. I'm aware that it's been watered down like shit, and has been created by fanfiction-writers in the first place, so yeah.

Pic related. Haven't read this shit myself, but it looks like complete cancer.

 No.6449

OP here. Now I've read the pic. Holy shit, it really is a bunch of self-serving bullshit.


 No.6450

For my purposes a Mary Sue is a blatant authorial self-insert in place of another character, and no more. When detailing this fault it's rather easy to confuse things by wandering off into a discussion about characters and characterization. Then any perceived failing of how a character is presented gets mislabeled as a Mary Sue.

Stephen King is the most well known to be consistently called out on this. While King bashing is a popular pastime for the greater /lit/scape, this is one accusation that is consistently wrong. So he's worth some study to see how he doesn't do this.

Some part of yourself will intrude into each character to some extent, that's not a surprise. One way to avoid stomping the character is to decide what you would do or say in a given situation, and have the character do something, anything, else.

I think a good study here is the character Pinkie Brown in the novel "Brighton Rock" by Graham Greene. I get the impression Greene built Pinkie with this method, having him do the exact opposite in any given situation.

Another issue is dialogue. You need to learn how to have a character speak differently than you do. One cheap trick here is to listen to and analyze your own speech. Identify the vocabulary and patterns you use, and never let a character use them.

Take some acting classes, and/or read up on acting methods.

On the other hand, stories with authorial self inserts can work just fine. Roman à clefs are a thing. See pretty much any Bukowski novel, or "Two Sisters" by Gore Vidal. The key here is that the audience understands what you are doing and who you are within the story.


 No.6452

unreadably bad grammar/10


 No.6453

>>6452

Nof OP necessarily - the pic.


 No.6454

>>6449

>it really is a bunch of self-serving bullshit.

that's the point of marysues.


 No.6461

>>6454

I actually meant the pic in its entirety. The right character is supposed to be a Mary Sue, and is given an F grade. The left one is supposed not to be a Mary Sue and she has an A grade. Whoever made this pic is giving herself a pat on the shoulder because she can write sample characters that aren't Mary Sues, just very uninteresting.


 No.6463

>>6461

i think that the sample with A is, in the mind of whoever made the pic an example of good mary sue.


 No.6466

>>6463

Well, F is a skilled warrior, a prodigy and can kill gods, or something like that. I think she's supposed to be the Mary Sue.


 No.6467

A character is interesting because of how he reflects certain attitudes and perspectives. It has nothing to do with some checklist, or power level.

The tvtropes approach to art is: "here are lists of things I like and things I don't like, let's put the things I like together and avoid the things I don't like." It's soulless.


 No.6468

>>6467

That's the real joke in the picture. Character A doesn't really have more character than Character F, she just has a more reasonable backstory and could conceivably encounter a challenge.


 No.6469

>>6467

Well said. When you break down a story into individual tropes, some of which are highly specific but have no bearing on the story whatsoever, it's easy to lose sight of the bigger picture. One of my friends once suggested a trope like "multi-parted doors", for when a door splits into multiple parts when it opens. This only ever happens because it looks cool, however, and that's it. Just because it occurs in several stories does not mean it ever characterizes any story to any relevant degree.

That's an extreme example and one that was thankfully never became a trope, but I think a lot of tropes are like that, and thinking in terms of tropes encourages you to look at trivial details like that while neglecting how they actually fit into the story.

>>6468

In that case, it's actually quite the convincing parody of people jerking off to not writing Mary Sues. Personally, I got fucking tired reading both characters.


 No.6483


 No.6490

>>6483

Christ that's even more tl;dr.


 No.6493

>>6490

You mean you didn't read the artist's entire list of reasons why other people make shit fanfic characters but hers (I'm just assuming here) are amazing, which of course culminates in the ultimate example that she doesn't actually know how to make more interesting characters than the people she's berating?


 No.6512

File: 1441987704115.png (12.23 KB, 284x98, 142:49, israel:^).png)


 No.6513

File: 1441987775361.png (36.91 KB, 881x310, 881:310, 14 swords.png)


 No.6516

>>6512

The real question is, does it count as misogyny is you criticize someone you think is a woman, but who is actually a man?


 No.6517

File: 1441993773674.jpg (77.63 KB, 640x533, 640:533, 1441834947200.jpg)

>>6516

Here's a misogyny checklist:

>Is it offended

Y=soggy knees

>Is it screaming

Y=soggy knees

>Is it discontent with anything at all ever

Y=soggy knees

>Have you looked at it

Y=soggy knees

>Have you talked to it

Y=soggy knees

>Have you disagreed with it

Y=rape

Hope this helps, anon. Don't forget to check your privilege.


 No.6518

>>6516

Depends on why you thought he was a women. If it's because he sounded stupid and you think all women are stupid, then your knees are soggy as fuck. If it's because most people on DeviantArt just so happen to be female, then I don't see how this should make knees soggy.

Unless you ask feminists, in which case you lose no matter what.


 No.6520

>>6517

Thank you for clearing that up for me.

>>6518

Check your logic-privilege.


 No.6698

>>6448

mary sues only bother me if they are present in published works.

take "the icemark chronicles" for example. the main character, Thirrin, is a thirteen year-old girl who can outperform every soldier within her castle in every martial category.

in addition to that, she can never be wrong. For some unknown reason, her gut guides her to make the most educated and correct choices when all evidence presented to her should maker her choose otherwise. this also extends into how she solves situations, and that is through bullying. throughout the whole story, this young girl bosses other characters around (most of them being older than her, in addition to being foreign kings and queens themselves) and they just role with it. she's supposed to gather an army to defend her realm, and she manages to pull it off by being a bitch and making empty threats.

to wrap it all up, characters are introduced and then ousted from the story for no other reason than to make her look good. For example, she trusts a boy she meets in the woods to treat her wounded soldiers, rather than have her royal physician do it. yes, the boy is objectively correct and the better healer, but why should she believe him over her physician (who is a mean old crotchety man btw)? she's lived with this older man in her castle for her whole life and been taught that his methods are true, but she just tells him to piss off after he gets rightfully angered. Then we never see him again, he just disappears.

i can go on and on about how the whole series is shit, but that would derail this thread into so many different topics.


 No.6702

>>6448

what i find incredibly funny about this is that the A character isn't even that far from being a mary sue.


 No.6703

>>6702

perhaps cliched is a better term though.


 No.6709

Mary Sues can only exist in fan fiction, where they are a self-insert for the author. I don't read fan fiction, so they don't bother me.




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