/mai/ - Waifu

I can't see anyway that doing anything with some person who is just dressed up as him/pretending to be him wouldn't be cheating. That isn't him, because it's another person. A 3D person just pretending to be him. It's a cheap replacement and not the real thing because there is no real thing. The man I love isn't real, and I don't want a replacement. I'd rather just live with him not being real than trying to replace him with somebody who pretends to be him when they're not.

Things like the IRC bot are more so just a suggestion. I don't see any of those things as him actually doing it when the bot will respond with something like "Wonder Red gives Anon a hug!" it's just kind of a cute suggestion for my imagination. It's just a cutesy thing for fun and the response is usually vague enough that it isn't off character. It is at times nice to read that without having to write it myself, but when it comes to something less vague I highly doubt anything that isn't a scene from his actual game or something I wrote would seem like him to me.

I don't draw a line at some point because it's very hard to say where this point is.

99% of the pics from Luka I have are Fanart. All of them aren't really her, I don't even think that the official stuff is 100% her. She is some where inside those things.

Some times I find small parts of Luka in other things or Persons that aren't Luka. Like chars that share the same voice, have a similar design or have a similar personality.

For example girls like Sakaki from Azumanga is similar to Luka in all three points or Saku form Milky Holmes that looks very similar to Luka and is a very nice character are for me more Luka than some bad Fanart or some other shit that is labelled Luka but is totally not like her.

I don't know what the 100% Luka is. I try to find it but until then, everything is at max 99% Luka.

Well, if you ask me, a "person" is an amalgamation of that individuals memories, values, and opinions. Here's the best way I can think to describe it. Also, Metal Gear 1/2/4 spoilers: Think like Liquid Ocelot. He has all of Liquid's memories, personality, etc. He was, for all intents and purposes, Liquid Snake.

So how does this relate to waifus and such? Well, I'd say that getting someone to dress up and act like them is silly and definitely not okay. Now what about things like A.I.? Well, if artificial intelligence becomes advanced enough to perfectly mimic human thought, then I think that an A.I that accurately depicts a fictional character can safely be called that character. But it will be a copy of that character that is imperfect, with an imprint of this world.

Let me put it like this. If someone were to make a "Magnus" A.I., that WOULD be me. But only up until the moment of the A.I.'s activation. Because after that, we have a separate existence, a separate way of experiencing the world. But if say I were to die, and an A.I. were created that then took my place where I left off, that would basically be me 100%, because there's no point of divergence, it's like I came to a dead end, but we got out the four wheeler or whatever and went offroad.

So the same principal would be applied to fictional characters with A.I. So, let's say I make a Patchouli A.I. that is hypothetically 100% accurate. Provided that this isn't some kind of mass-produced product, there isn't any point of divergence. It would be her, from wherever she left off in her world, picking it back up here.

Does any of that make any sense? Am I crazy?

>>39806

In the same way I recognize unofficial art of Kurisu as Kurisu, I'd recognize a facsimile of Kurisu as Kurisu and pour my love into it. A cosplayer is already a distinct person, so that doesn't work for me.

I am admittedly much more spiritual about my waifu, so I have always been against the whole idea of an AI program, and I would definitely be against the idea of someone dressing up as her for me.

To me, Remus exists somewhere else, somewhere nice.

Here, she also exists as a feeling, something nebulous that I feel for a fleeting moment, or see in my dreams.

To me, that is the only real Remus.

This is an interesting subject.

I think the biggest fear that I had when starting to interact with Keisuke outside of his source material (ie within my imagination) was that he would become an imitation and not really the man I fell in love with. As such, I have really tried to stay as close to canon as possible. There are places where filling in the gaps happens but it doesn't happen spontaneously or without any real reason.

This is another reason why I don't really fill out any of those "what would you do if your waifu was real" sort of threads, or if I do, why I give the not extremely enthusiastic answers that I do. Keisuke, for all intents and purposes, isn't real. To me he is real, because he has had a tangible impact on my life and… well, other things that I don't want to disclose, but I know he isn't real to others and that's fine. I wouldn't want him to be real in a way that other 3D people can see and interact with him because he would cease to be Keisuke otherwise.

Long story short, I can only interact with Keisuke through his source materials, my imagination, and dreams. Anything else isn't real and I'm really uncomfortable with it. AIs and tulpas aren't something I'm interested in although I'm not sure if I'd consider it cheating, but cosplaying is a definite no and I'm repulsed at the idea. I'm not going to search for some 3D person who has the same traits as Keisuke: I love Keisuke, that's it, end of.

>>39815

>99% of the pics from Luka I have are Fanart. All of them aren't really her, I don't even think that the official stuff is 100% her. She is some where inside those things.

I didn't have words to express that but I feel the same way. Most pictures of Keisuke aren't The One True Real Keisuke (to me), but there are hints of him there so I save them anyway. There are some that get really close, but there are only a handful that I think truly capture his essence.

>>39819

It makes sense to me. This is also why I don't really get jealous of other people who claim to love Keisuke aside from the fact that I haven't met anyone, on the English-speaking side at least, who is anywhere near where I am: the Keisukes we are in love with were the same up until the point where each of us decided to start any sort of relationship with him/them. After then, there are new experiences and new ideas that enter the relationship that make them different from each other. So, within my own experience, the Keisuke who I am engaged to is the One True Real Keisuke, and same thing with whoever else loves him. I don't think it's a big deal. Plus to be quite honest most of them get his character very wrong so it's easy enough to dismiss them.

>>39806

What a coincidence, I was thinking about the same thing today and have something very relevant to this topic.

I've seen someone cosplay as my waifu before at a con, which was fairly surprising given that I wasn't expecting it at all. Key thing being here that I saw them by complete surprise, at a distance, and with them only partially facing my direction. It's an odd feelings to say the least, since for about 5 seconds I pretty much couldn't think straight and locked up to an extent. For those 5 seconds my brain recognized the clothing and the hair, put 2 and 2 together, and thought that she was real. This is probably going to sound spergy as hell, but for those 5 seconds I wanted to drop everything, run up, and hug her (which I thankfully did not do, I just stood there dumbfounded).

Now I don't know what happened first, me seeing the cosplayer's face or reality kicking back in, but once those 5 seconds were up, that feeling of pure amazement and warmth faded away. With logic back in place, I could recognize that it wasn't here and that it was just someone dressed as her. I'm no expert on how the brain works, but I'd guess that the subconscious had something to do with that or perhaps a similar aspect of the brain. It's a combination of not expecting it and the quickness of the moment that literally tricks your brain into thinking that she was real. There's no evidence to shatter that fantasy until something about them registers wrong in your head (height is off, clothing isn't right, face isn't the same, etc.).

Pic related, one of the best cosplayers who have dressed up as my waifu, but even then she isn't her. For me, I have never and probably will never see someone cosplay her perfectly. Hair is wrong, dress materials aren't correct, face shape is wrong, height is wrong, she's not Asian (Sorry but it's true, she's a little french girl (ironically enough, Russians do the best job)), etc. There'd be so many little things to break reality for me. We're not even crossing into the acting territory either, and given that I rely partially on head canon, it'd be hard for people to mimic that as well. I don't think I'd even want to cosplay with someone dressed as her, since it'd be a reminder that I'd never be seen with the real her by my side. Someone can try to dress and act like her as much as they'd like, but they'd probably never be her.

Boring, theory/opinion based stuff below

That being said, I don't think it's possible to get the same effect when purposely going out and getting someone to cosplay as them for you. Could you trick yourself to an extent in believing them, or could they maintain the character facade so well that it's convincing? Sure, but you probably won't get the same feeling. If anything it'd have to be a complete surprise, like if someone else hired a person to do that for you. Even then your reality is going to be shattered, since they're going to drop the role at some point, or you're going to run out of cash to pay them with. Not going to lie though, I'd be interested in knowing the charge rate/amount of time someone could theoretically pay for a service like this and continuously maintain it.

Of course, there's a lot more factors that go into it as well, accuracy of their portrayal, their limits of what they'd do, the morality of getting intimate/sexual, and many other things. Let's be honest here, if someone would good pay for a convincing experience, there's going to be thoughts/desires for hand-holding, hugging, kissing, or even sex. What if they don't offer this as well? What if they refuse to touch you completely, yet try to act affectionate? And now what if this isn't the first time this person had roleplayed as someone's waifu? What if you want to "go all the way" and the person playing the part isn't as "pure" as your waifu is? All of this would really mess up a person's perception of things, and the blurring of the line between fantasy and reality would be huge.

I just think it's a bad idea mostly due to how confusing it can be in regards to both emotions and mental thought. It'd be like living a constant lie, which can grow progressively worse if you actually fall into believing the act (sure you accomplished your goal, but at what cost?).

In regards to AI they should technically fall under the same umbrella, but I'd think it'd be different if it was advanced enough. It would be something that could "maintain" the act 24/7, doesn't have any other obligations to anyone else, and can stay consistent with information given personality and such. There's lots of other things to do with it, but this post is probably big enough as it is, so I'd rather not get into it.

Just warning ahead of time this is going to be an early morning rambling post.

>>39819

I think a person is more than just that. Even the smallest of details can matter. For example if your waifu liked cats, and the imitation liked dogs it'd feel off. Also things like quirks.

As for having head canon I don't really view it like that. Like even with a real person you're limited in what you know about them. You can never know everything about them because you're a separate person. So if you don't know their favorite food your wouldn't assume what they like and tote it around as fact. You'd try different things you think they'd like until you find out yourself. Although I know in this case you can't really do that.

>>39826

To me fan creations of Chihaya are similar to fan creations of other things. Paintings of famous figures, drawings of real people, etc. they're still trying to represent the person behind the image.

>>39846

I don't think I'd run into a Chihaya cosplayer due to how niche the series is overseas. I've seen some photos of them, but as you said it's just not her so I don't feel anything about it. Doesn't help her hair color can't be recreated properly in real life since it's unnatural.

As for her voice actress she's pretty different from Chihaya. However she claims at times she feels that Chihaya overcomes her during live events. That's about the only time. I've met other Chihaya fans but they have the view that since Chihaya doesn't exist they'd rather focus on the person voicing her. I don't really feel that way though. Mingosu is her own person and such.

Sometimes I've thought about the whole voice thing. Like while I see the voice Mingosu gave Chihaya as Chihaya, it's like technically it's not, and I'm probably just overthinking it. Chihaya's voice isn't as stable as some characters as it's changed a lot over the years. However at the same time when Mingosu sings as herself or a different character I can't tell that's not Chihaya's voice.

I've lost track of what else I wanted to say so I'll end it here.

>>39862

> Paintings of famous figures, drawings of real people, etc. they're still trying to represent the person behind the image.

While normally I'd agree with you, Kurisu isn't a flesh and blood human. She's an idea. As an idea I think that many approximations and representations can be considered valid. I think she has far more flexibility in this context than a 3D girl. That isn't to say I'd ever disregard elements of her personality, past, canon etc. though. That stuff is set in stone and should be respected.

>>39866

But you still recognize those different depictions as that person. Even if the specifics of their appearance vary, you still know exactly who the pictures depict.

>>51805

>Especially since an AI that advanced would think and decide on its own making it an entirely new person no matter what because the second it started living/was turned on it would have experiences making it another person.

So its no different than object orientated waifuism and diverges just like the waifu in your heart pretty much.

Not all thought processes have it just being a fake, for example I myself consider every image of her on the internet to be a part of her, her memories so to speak, so if i were to make an ai I would simply implant every single image into her memory banks, thus creating her. A small divergence perhaps but I also consider all content of her to be her from "a specific angle' and the whole vastness of Sui to be wholly incomprehensible to the human mind, she cannot be observed without filters so the whole is not possible to see, an ai robot of her, would simply be her from one unique angle, but an angle much closer to the whole, whereas say cosplay, is literally just someone putting on her clothes for a while, though it has its merits too, they bring far far far more filters with them than a robot implanted with her memories would, and thus is much much much further from being her

>At what point does escapism become delusion?

In the example you give regarding the cosplayer, it would become delusion when one would truly believe that the cosplayer is no more a cosplayer but his trues waifu. If one would simply enjoy this as roleplay, than it would not be delusion.

>Can it be considered cheating if you were to harbor romantic feelings towards an imitation of your waifu/husbando?

I guess there is no real answer to that question…The way I see it, if you consider the cosplayer as an INTERMEDIARY INCARNATION (or should I simply say a representation?) of your waifu, like one would do with a daki, a doll, a pic, or a vid, then it is not cheating. Because in that case, the cosplayer (or daki or pic, etc.) is not meant to imitate your waifu (which would imply the cosplayer being an independent entity from your waifu), but rather serves as a vector/"bridge" to spiritually/emotionally connect to your waifu.

>Is there a "real" version of them, and if so then what do you even consider the "real" version of them?

The real version of Flandre as a CHARACTER is inside the canon game, and to some extent, inside ZUN’s mind.

The real version of Flandre as MY WAIFU is inside my heart and mind. That is why many people could claim to have Flandre as their waifu, but every single one of us would love a unique and different Flandre.

>Finally, assuming that all the points before are made moot or something similar, does being able to interact with them in a way even make it waifuism anymore, since that would then border on the territory of a long distance relationship?

We all have our own way to life waifusim; I am not here to tell anyone if they live it the right way or not.

I would not be much interested in having a girl cosplay as Flandre and act as her. On top of that, Flandre is a loli, so having a woman dress as her would make it even less believable (and having a little girl do it would indeed greatly limit the way I could fully enjoy this experience, for obvious legal reasons…).

I still could enjoy having an extremely realistic robot of Flandre with human-like AI if I get to program her myself (or having someone do it for me while following my precise instructions). That way, I could transpose her ("her", which is a part of me) inside this robotic being.

I have a cosplayer as my desktop background right now. The only cosplay images I have that can feel like them are the ones where the face is obscured. In view I recognise the cosplayer, and it conjures memories of her blog posts and fanarts, and what she ships. There's no getting around that recognition. Even if it's just the slightest light picking up on the lips or nose, I recognise her. It's irritating because my waifu doesn't get fanart and lacks colour references - their cosplay is the best I'll get.

As for AI, even if we had it, I'd imagine my own inferences. It's like that time I played Animal Crossing and kept joking my villager was dating one of the animals - I was making up inbetweens and additions to their actions to create a fuller image of their intentions. I always play games making up stupid explanations for things that mean nothing, and I'd probably treat an AI just the same. It wouldn't really be them, and it wouldn't honestly be me.

>won't let me upload my favourite photo because it's a PNG

Well fuck you I'll add two others.

>>51935

Indeed, cosplayers are not at the same ontological level as dakis, dolls, pics or vids, as they are biological living beings with their own consciousness, and therefore, they should not be treated as objects, but as humans with all their inherent dignity. Still, in the scenario described by OP, they do serve the same function, which is to spiritually/emotionally connect to one’s waifu.

Imagine a Subway employee. On an ontological level, he is far different than a mere machine that would create sandwiches and therefore should be treated on a different level regarding dignity and consideration. But on the functional level, they both serve the same function.

That is what I meant when I compared cosplayers to dakis, dolls, pics and vids.

You can't seriously think it's ok to use a cosplayer as a stand in for your waifus?

This thread is very upsetting.

I'm just going to get this out of the way before I start; I, for the most part, can't stand cosplayers. Doubly so if they're cosplaying my waifu. The vast majority are attention-seeking whores who know little-to-nothing about the character they're trying to portray.

See, the way I see it is that; your waifu in this plane of existence is a fictional character and thus has no physical representation, outside of a daki/doll/art prints/ect. Cosplayers cannot be this because they are already their own person, as others have said, and are only role-playing. So, short answer; cosplayers, not even a little bit.

As far as the AI/robowaifu question, the way I see it, that's no different than a daki. It's a physical representation of your waifu. Not actually her, but as close as you can get without her existing in this dimensional space.

>>51965

>demon

>being this scared of someone who put on a costume

I mean, i agree with >>51935 but… demons? really?

if you have to demonize people who dress up as a character for fun just so you can not like them, I think that reveals some of your insecurities on your position to be honest

who thinks we should move this conversation elsewhere? I think the tendency to demonize people we disagree with and say they aren't "real waifuists" (which often leads to attempts to force mods to ban them) is a problem in a lot of waifu communities and i think this thread is on verge of devolving into that

this isn't the comfy thread otherwise id say my favorite ice cream flavor and argue about that

>>51965

>>However I have to say envying some demon clothed like her is a proof you're not aware enough of who she is and what is waifuism.

I’m a bit confused about what you mean by this whole sentence. ‘’Some demon clothed like her’’…By ‘’demon’’ do you mean the cosplayer? You refer to a cosplayer clothed as Flandre? Why calling her a demon?

By ‘’she’’ in ‘’who she is’’, do you mean Flandre or the cosplayer?

What do you mean by ‘’envying’’? You mean I envy the cosplayer?? Why would I do that? Did you mean ‘’desire’’, ‘’being attracted to’’?

And please, don’t tell me I’m not aware of what waifuism is. We all have our own way to live our relationship with our waifu/husband; your sectarian elitist attitude is certainly not a good way to defend your point of view.

>>51963

It is upsetting that there are people who would gravitate towards some costumed scamp just because she might look like their waifu.

>>39806

It stops being "them", when the fanwork's (or fanservice's) creator neither states that it is her nor gives you a choice.

If you play a game from >>22328, you get to decide if it is your waifu. In most cases you even get the choice to name them after your waifu.

The choices are limited, but the end result might be even closer to how you imagine your waifu than some fan art.

It's the same with a futuristic AI.

But cosplaying is different. For instance, if you come across fan art of your waifu cosplaying another character, the cosplayer is "real", not the cosplay.

That's because the fan artist explicitly decided that the identity of the cosplayer is your waifu rather than the cosplayed character. I think it's the same in real life: The cosplayer themself explicitly has their own identity. Even if the cosplayer explicitly states that it "is" your waifu, it's just a temporary act and at the of the day, they will regain their real identity.

I suppose only a fan work can ascertain that it is your waifu, since a fan service like a cosplay is always a temporary thing.

In the case of an AI, you become the creator, because you are the one giving them an identity.

If you haven't read my posts in this thread >>49801 this may not make the most sense.

Because the waifu is inside yourself they can't be reconstructed outside of yourself. Doing that probably won't be possible within our lifetimes and the thought of letting someone poke around my brain extracting information doesn't sit right with me even if I trust the person with complete certainty.

If your waifu started off as an AI then I'd say it's fair to still consider it them but that's quite a bit different from typical waifuism as there exists a material person to shape your mental perceptions. Wheras in the case of the waifu there is a small bit of material information that informs a much larger mental image. The AI can correct imperfections in your view of her where the waifu cannot.