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File: d013f931f6a54fa⋯.jpg (63.6 KB, 750x500, 3:2, fd4eeb7bf0141c2194cf4ffec6….jpg)


I don't know how many of you browse /leftypol/ so I'm posting my thread here as well. I'd like to see what you have to say to this argument against Marxism. Hopefully I won't get banned.

>It is a fundamental principle, if not an axiom, of Marxism that capital is a fiction and only exists as an illegitimate and parasitic phenomenon, which alienates from the workers part of the value created by labor. This is why Capitalism is called "Capitalism" and Marx's book about it Das Kapital. However, Marx's own system contains a feature that can only be understood as reflecting the reality of capital. As Marx allowed, indeed celebrated, that over time the material conditions and modes of production change and improve, representing the economic progress of history, he overlooked the circumstance that this progress must then be ranked according to a system and scale of value. The quantity of labor may not change, but what it can produce, in quantity and quality, does. The ratio between quantity and quality of labor is called "productivity."

>Thus, the vast number of Egyptian masons and other laborers who could produce a pyramid, an essentially useless object, would now be put to better use producing the consumer and capital goods of an industrial economy. The difference in productivity between the pyramid builders and automobile makers is covered by Marx with a version of Hegel's dialectic, which is supposed to produce ever more complex and sophisticated structures with each iteration. Be that as it may, this effectively introduces a new variable into the equation of value. A quantity of automobile labor differs in a different dimension of value from an equal quantity of pyramid labor. Nothing prevents Marx from identifying such a scale in the dimension of dialectical progression. However, there is already a name for such a scale of value: It is the value of capital, including human capital.

>Pyramid building is labor intensive production, while automobile building is capital intensive production. Capital intensive production requires skills and knowledge, whose fruits may be effected by the industrial workers, but which may only be conceived and held systematically in the consciousness of the industralist, i.e. the Henry Ford. Yet even Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

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pick one



Workers are compelled to sell their labor-power, but even if a worker was fabulously wealthy he would still be exploited because the capitalist would still be extracting surplus-value from the unpaid amount of his labor. Capitalism is inherently exploitative just like slavery and feudalism, no matter what the worker/slave/serf himself thinks of that arrangement.



>Workers are compelled to sell their labor-power,

they are not



Good point the workers of the world should just all start small businesses, thanks Proudhon.




read stirner

File: d7ce62f0dbb4593⋯.png (59.54 KB, 500x192, 125:48, 1.png)


debunk this







we have bigger guns

t. private police


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hmm.... computer, enhance.

File: 441ed36f63287b2⋯.jpg (127.33 KB, 800x400, 2:1, imperialism, world systems….jpg)


Is world-systems theory bullshit or legit? Is it compatible with the Leninist conception of imperialism and monopoly stage of capitalism (and if not, what are the differences between them)? Is Maoism-Third Worldism the logical conclusion of world-systems theory?


File: 27f2058452c831e⋯.jpg (33.74 KB, 318x474, 53:79, book cover.jpg)

There's a Marxist critique of world systems theory in the following work: https://archive.org/details/LogicOfImperialism

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Does anybody here (Or any other left-leaning board) participate in Syria Generals?


File: 0128913dd118572⋯.jpg (75.64 KB, 660x933, 220:311, c15407aee7b95423a08aedb5db….jpg)


I've...perused it a few times. I thought the Rojava hate on /leftypol/ was a bit much, so I was mighty unprepared for what I saw there. They seriously discuss "the Rojava Question." Guess what the answer seems to be over there? It also seems a litte...idpol-y. It feels like I'm on /pol/ sometimes over there, lol.



Who is this semen demon?

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File: 79c74cd5751bd6b⋯.jpg (185.02 KB, 800x640, 5:4, AngelaMerkel-WelcomeMuslim….jpg)


Why is it ok to oppress the rich and wealthy but it's bad to oppress the jews?

Also, the other day while I was talking to one of you commies, he said that Angela Rape-my-country Merkel was right wing, and Jeremy Commie Corbyn was a centrist, so my question to you guys is, where on the compass are these two in your eyes?

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File: 8014fad0dbe3384⋯.jpg (25.46 KB, 306x306, 1:1, John Brown.jpg)


>like how "fake" socialism relies on famines.

I don't recall the USSR (or China, or... any other socialist country) suffering constant famines every other year or decade. In fact it was precisely through collectivization that the famine of the early 30s in the USSR was the last of its kind (excepting a brief famine right after the Great Patriotic War caused by Nazi destruction.)

>Here's there compass results

A political compass score doesn't say much, first because words don't necessarily equate with actions, and second because the compass itself is flawed. Here's a decent critique by a liberal: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/redefining_the_political_spectru.htm

>Now repeat after me, you don't have to be a socialist to be left wing.

That's true, but then we're not arguing about the Levelers during the English Revolution, or about John Brown, or many other movements/figures that could be described as left-wing for their time despite obviously not being socialists.

I don't think someone who, in essence, seeks to perpetuate the current status quo (as I'd argue Corbyn does) is left-wing. So long as private ownership of the means of production dominates an economy, it is capitalist. There is nothing I've seen in Corbyn's politics that indicates he wishes to change this arrangement or carry out any policies that would greatly annoy the capitalist class.

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"Oppress." I, personally, don't seek to oppress anyone. My revolutionary actions are in defense of myself and humanity as a whole. Violence is perpetrated against us. We seek to remove the ability of the oppressors to oppress us. This is not out of a sense of class-based rage, but out of human solidarity. I care for you, and so I don't want you to suffer under the yoke of this monstrous system we live under. I care for those that oppress us as well, since they do so out of ignorance, or because they were inculcated in their ideology from youth and haven't had the opportunity to learn different. It is not only OK to fight back against their oppression, it is a moral imperative to do so.


File: 4e0ef15e85a7856⋯.jpg (141.27 KB, 695x1152, 695:1152, Pritt Light on Moscow.jpg)


Yes, as I said, Pritt and Zilliacus are examples of left-wing persons who were not Communists. They drew the ire of the Labour Party's leadership because they refused to go along with the Cold War attacks on the USSR, but otherwise they were Labourites, not Marxists.

"Light on Moscow" and "Must the War Spread?" (both by Pritt, and both of which I've scanned and put online) are great explanations of European diplomacy during the 1933-1939 period.

File: c97db0d507dabec⋯.jpg (53 KB, 503x347, 503:347, muke is anglo.jpg)


Anyone know of any good ML podcasts?


The DP podcast is a good lefty podcast.



Think about this

This person lives in a relatively nice home with a lot of over priced garbage everywhere, paid for by welfare, which pays enough that it can buy all that and still be fat, the state also pays for It's incredibly expensive transitioning and eventual DRS.

All this while spending 16 hours a day online rallying other well off well fed idiots to attack the working class as hard as they can in the name of saving the working class. They hope this will destroy the system that supports their parasitic asses.

Really makes you think.

Really makes you think.



File: bc731a3f6499bb0⋯.jpg (74.11 KB, 690x388, 345:194, Lenin hooray.jpg)

>to attack the working class as hard as they can in the name of saving the working class. They hope this will destroy the system that supports their parasitic asses.

Well, by your own logic, these people are against the working-class yet want to establish a system (socialism) that abolishes unemployment, thus rendering welfare unnecessary and consequently obliging them to play a productive role in society, to the benefit of the working-class.

So I don't really see your point, or how that individual is a reflection on the international communist movement.

You also had some pictures alleging Communism is a Jewish conspiracy, but I've never seen anything demonstrating the specifically "Jewish" nature of Marxism or how socialist governments pursued "Jewish" policies.

Your other pictures were porn, so I accidentally deleted both types.

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what is drs?

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Long live the workers!!LONG LIVE THE WORKERS!!

Long live the millions that rose up in the first huge victory for the working class, for the ones that struggled to overthrow capitalism, the ones that fought for their rights, for communism!!

Long live the workers that guided by Lenin and the Bolsheviks, inspired by Marx and Engels ideas, fought and triumphed to stablish a better system!!

Because today 100 years later they deserve to be recognized ,as they inspired, inspire and will inspire, the oppresed workers to rise up.

Because although 100 years later it seems capitalism is again unstopable, this remebers us that there is nothing as the force of the workers united, that there is teh possiblity for a more Fair system, were oppresion is ended.

So today comrades join, independently on your particular thoughts, because we remember the workers that struggled to achieve their goals.

I hope some day we will be able to see what they fought for.



PS::What are you doing to celebrate it comrades?

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File: 0124bc5ef7103f5⋯.jpg (728.88 KB, 1159x700, 1159:700, __shana_shakugan_no_shana_….jpg)

Glory to those who struggle against Capital. Glory to Marxism-Leninism and the Soviet Union.


File: 8fd90a512ba5e52⋯.jpg (1.8 MB, 1555x2048, 1555:2048, GURREN LENIN.jpg)


What for??


File: 1b78d0dec1fec5c⋯.png (283.37 KB, 325x935, 65:187, octrevgraphic.png)

Drinking beer and reading Trotsky's unabridged history of the revolution. Was going to go to pic related but the weather is nasty af.


Vodka, Semechki and Balalaika.



>taking pride in working


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I don't buy le genocide meme so I fully encourage you to drop all your thick commie redpills on my gaping roadie asshole


What are you looking for, more specifically?



Arguments for collectivization, mostly. Also shit that overal disproves the Red Army was going around eating all the food n shit in Ukraine.


File: e4ccc1271fde55e⋯.jpg (28.94 KB, 480x480, 1:1, didnt u forget to ask uncl….jpg)


>Arguments for collectivization, mostly.

I assume you mean arguments in favour of socialism/communism/collective ownership of the means of production generally (and not specific policy of the USSR in the 20th century)? I remember the article Why Socialism? by Albert Einstein being a pretty good introduction to socialism, back when I was a liberal.

Here it is: https://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/

>Also shit that overal disproves the Red Army was going around eating all the food n shit in Ukraine.

I'm not an expert at Soviet history so I'll leave this question for Ismail or someone else.



No mang I mean Soviet collectivization of agriculture. The kolkhoz system. Whether it caused the famine or not, the role of the kulaks, how they started speculating with the NEP, etc.


File: 9626003f22334d1⋯.png (2.95 MB, 1504x1000, 188:125, Collectivization poster.png)


For arguments in favor of collectivization:

* https://archive.org/details/DobbSovEconDev (Soviet Economic Development since 1917)

* https://archive.org/details/SovietPeasantryOutlineHistory (a Soviet account)

* http://b-ok.org/book/2606184/eda7a0 (Farm to Factory: A Reinterpretation of the Soviet Industrial Revolution)

As for stuff debunking the "USSR intentionally created a famine" narrative:

* https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/vv.html

* http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrow...yYXlA&user=&pw

* https://archive.org/details/FraudFamineAndFascsim (Fraud, Famine and Fascism: The Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard)

* http://b-ok.org/book/1159294/b3f33f (The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933)

Robert Conquest, Orlando Figes, Terry Martin, Michael Ellman and Hiroaki Kuromiya are among the many mainstream historians of the USSR who argue the famine was unintended, so it's not some fringe "Stalinist" view.

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Do any of you think China is still a socialist country?? Or at least an state capitalist dictatorship of the proletariat?

Do you believe the Chinese are going back sometime to a socialist planned economy withouth burgeoise, generalized commodity production and private porperty?


It’s not a socialist country, no. It’s incredibly unlikely that China will ever return to socialism without another revolution or some major shit going down.



Fuck no, not since the late 70's.

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Maybe this has been discussed here before, but what about adding the option of posting with a flag, similar to /leftypol/ (before they fucked it up)? Good idea or no? I assume the intention is for this to remain a primarily ML board, so maybe we wouldn’t need a Bookchin flag or anything, but for example an ordinary ML flag, a Maoist flag, a Hoxhaist flag, etc? Alternatively (or additionally) the flags of former and currently existing socialist states like Cuba, DPRK, Yugoslavia, etc.

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File: 98ffcd5e0dbb104⋯.png (207.47 KB, 1200x600, 2:1, Variant of Soviet flag.png)


If other people want it, I could do so.




Since this board is for Marxism-Leninism, I don't think it is necessary. Flags are only useful when different tendencies share a single board. Maybe when /marx/ grows, which it hopefully might.



You can still associate different flags with different tendencies: Soviet Union (generic ML), North Korea (Juche), Mao's head (Maoist), Albania (Hoxhaist)


it's unnecessary. I barely look at flags can end up being divisive and tend to ignore the substance of the conversation. This happened a lot on leftypol



*and can end up

File: 2c9eac9984ad0a0⋯.jpg (76.78 KB, 500x622, 250:311, usa ball 05.jpg)


Hello, I'm from /leftypol/.

I was wondering what you /marx/ists think of Rojava. I know that there are ML, Maoist, and Hoxhaist groups from other countries fighting alongside them, but I also know that some Marxists, both in Syria and abroad, support Assad's government and believe that Rojava is just a US puppet state. What do you lads think?

Pic unrelated

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I'm definitely not an expert on Syrian politics, but to me they're clearly better than many other groups in the region, with their support for democracy, women's liberation, socialism, etc. On the other hand their cooperation with the US is suspect. I'm pretty in the midde on this question. I think the "tankie" position (100% support for Assad) is pretty ridiculous but I'm not gonna pretend like they're not, at the moment, being used for US imperialist interests, like some anarchists do.



IF that is correct why does Russia arms and supports Rojava and why are Kurd's are allied to Assad :)?



I sympathize with them in their desire for self-determination and wish them well in any attempts to build socialism, but they need to to seriously re-evaluate their decision to collaborate with the US. I don't think even the most ardent supporter of Rojava will deny that the only reason for the US to assist Rojava is to further their own interests in the region, and building socialism in an independent or semi-autonomous Kurdish nation is certainly not in the interests of the US. Once the more pressing threats to American hegemony in the region have been eliminated (Assad/Russia and the Islamists) the US will without question turn on them and dismantle any gains that have been made. Allowing the US military a foothold in their own territory obviously would only make this easier. The meme response to this is to point out that the Soviets received military aid from the Western Allies during WWII, with the British and Americans both operating military forces out of Soviet territory as well, therefore "the Soviets must have been imperialist puppets too!" but the difference in situation is pretty glaring and the situations aren't terribly comparable.


The PKK is fighting in a guerilla war against a NATO member state right now. Fucking moronic western leftists think that the US state security apparatus is omnipotent even though it is filled with the more incompetent morons every year.

The US is literally losing a war against one of their former "puppets"

File: 27c6b45dd512c6f⋯.png (413.2 KB, 2505x1440, 167:96, 2020electoralmap.png)


There's an HTML game out on the internet called POWER - a multiplayer american political simulation game, and it needs your help. If you all think that the current Republican regime is bad, wait until you get a load of the Republicans in power in this game. To give you a taste, the leader has changed the national name from USA to The Greater American Reich. You heard that right. Reich.

That leads to the heart of the issue: There is legitimately no feasible opposition to these fascists from the left. They have all been factionalized into small tribes which are a shell of the former power that was the Democratic Party. The competent minds went one direction, the resources went another, and those that were devoted simply left.

Which brings me to my proposal: Join the game. The way I see it, you have two options for opposing the fascist regime in the game:

1) The Democratic People's Union (DPU): A small but growing group of players that carry the competence required to contest the right wing. They have dedicated themselves to an IWW-esque model of direct democracy and direct action to run the party, and have dedicated themselves to the ideal of an Industrial Democracy where all the workers share in the wealth and all have an equal say. Their weakness is that, while they are growing, they need more. They need more members, they need more resources, they need more support.

Discord Link: https://discord.gg/fAvK3W5

2) The Democratic Party (DNC): The old-guard of the Democrats is all but lost. This party has long-since lost its way on the path to neoliberalism and has found itself very malleable to the will of whomever is in charge. This has left them weak and helpless to fend off the GOP, as the last band of competent players either left them for the DPU or betrayed them and chose an unholy alliance with the fascists. Their strength, however, is that their resources are all but limitless in the system. If you can ascend to the top quickly, you could find yourself at the helm of a mighty power.

Discord Link: https://discord.gg/3UpFd

Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

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Former Senator from the NDA here before it was reformed into the Demorats

So the Nazi larpers took over even more, huh?

I quit because I was tired of endless fucking meme bills in the senate from GOPfags



You should join Ismail's forum http://eregime.org/index.php

Him and his friends run lots of political-themed games.



You should not because he has paranoid schizophrenia



No he does not. He does not even ban people unless they do blatant fuckery (like last year he made someone an admin to create a domain for the forum and that someone was a Trump supporter who deleted literally 95 per cent of the users).

Just look at /marx/, he lets open nazis and ancaps post here unless they spam the forum.

He is the most relaxed admin I know.



wew, a diagnosis over the internet

how trustworthy

Isma may be a revisionist, but he's the most chill admin I've ever met

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First off, sorry for sliding the board. But honestly what's your stance on all that drama on /leftypol/ since yesterday? A few minutes ago I got banned for arguing that Russia isn't an imperialist actor in Syria. There is currently a war going on between the mods which consists of a side that bans people for euphemizing US imperialism, and another side that bans people on sight who are critical towards the YPG.

All because some Anarchists, Leftcoms and YPG posters made endless threads about the BO saying that you shouldn't openly support imperialism. I'm tending to side with the BO on this - he didn't actually say that you can't support Rojava but that you should recongize that imperialism exists, and that it is a problem, which should be common sense for a leftist board. I feel like the quality of /leftypol/ has been going down a lot recently, with an extremly vocal anti-ML front and this kinda feels like the final nail in the coffin. I've seen posters being absolutely ignorant to even accept that there are marxist definitions of imperialism out there that make sense, and that there is theory out there interlodging anti-imperialism with class struggle (which kinda is inseperable anyway). I've been trying to summarize people about Maos dialectic of contradictions, and the responses I got were unisono "not gonna bother, red fascism, dumb and proud". I'm kinda done with this board, Leftcoms ruined it, creating an extremly narrow-minded consensus.

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/leftypol/ Board Owner here, if these really are the reasons you were banned, it's definitely against the rules to ban you for that. I've PMed the volunteer who banned the Catalonia thread. If you can show me the ban message for the DPRK flag then I can investigate that too.



Apparently I'm still banned for the Catalonia thread.



The ban log is totally broken right now, sadly.



I keep getting banned for evasion but I haven't been banned in the first place. I already appealed.


Months later, and it's still complete shit. I think they're trying to push people to their shitty website, but since they have like 10 people there, they're shitting up /leftypol/ to make people want to leave.

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I'm looking for that PDF that dismantled Popper's falsifiability connected on Marxism.

Anybody has it?


File: 0d8cdc1bd224faf⋯.jpg (139.09 KB, 300x439, 300:439, Cornforth.jpg)

There's a book-length work by Maurice Cornforth (the CPGB's leading authority on philosophy during the 1930s-70s) arguing against Popper: http://b-ok.org/book/2341203/4411ec

Here's the PDF you're probably looking for though: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi= ("Popper’s Double Standard of Scientificity

in Criticizing Marxism" by Hristos Verikukis)

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