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 No.2678

Would anyone be interested in making a counter-video to this, or a sort of debunking? It would be interesting at least to see a good criticism. The person is quite polite and makes a clearly structured argument, so it will be easy to attack key points.

 No.2679

File: 1436345411279.jpg (108.85 KB, 960x702, 160:117, Stalin aviation festival.jpg)

Summarize the issues he brings up and I'd be glad to respond.


 No.2680

>>2679

I'll summarize them briefly. They're probably tired points to you though. Luckily, he makes individual points clear, it's presented almost like a mathematical proof.

1. States are three things. They have monopolized use of force, a group of people who execute this force, and a geographical area in which to execute this in.

2. States, because of this group of priveleged people, will always create a ruler-class above them, preventing them from establishing a classless society because of Nomenklatura and such. At best they can establish "State Capitalism" (Whatever the hell that means, is there any more meaningless term in leftism?)

3. States aren't necessary to achieve socialism because of the previous point and because of Catalonia and the Free Territory achieving "Socialism."

4. State socialism has always repressed workers and destroyed revolutions and attempts at workers control, because they killed said Free Territory, Kronsdat, etc.

5. Therefore Libertarian Socialism/Anarchism is the best.

These are probably points you've all refuted individualy, but if you can pick apart the actual argument that most Anarchists use it would be of great use in future debate.


 No.2682

File: 1436389523656.jpg (57.44 KB, 683x460, 683:460, Stalin Constitution.jpg)

>1. States are three things. They have monopolized use of force, a group of people who execute this force, and a geographical area in which to execute this in.

Yes, so long as one does not omit the crucial point of the class nature of the state which underpins its very purpose in existing and using force.

>2. States, because of this group of priveleged people, will always create a ruler-class above them, preventing them from establishing a classless society because of Nomenklatura and such.

The differentiation of tribal communities into classes and the eventual emergence of the state were the results of primitive communal life impeding the material development of society. The state is an inevitable part of the development of human society in the period of classes. It will wither away once the final system of class exploitation (capitalism) has been defeated and the high material and cultural level associated with "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" becomes a reality.

>3. States aren't necessary to achieve socialism because of the previous point and because of Catalonia and the Free Territory achieving "Socialism."

There's already a thread discussing the Makhnovites, but as far as Catalonia is concerned see PDF pages 314-323 of the following for examples of the "socialism" of anarchist control of Catalonia: https://espressostalinist.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/espana.pdf

Also the words of Juan Andrade, one of the POUM's leaders and obviously not someone partial to the "Stalinist" view of events: "The anarcho- syndicalist workers had made themselves the owners of everything they collectivized; the collectives were treated as private, not social, property. Socialization, as practised by CNT unions, was no more than trade union capitalism. 'Although it wasn't immediately apparent, the economy as run by the CNT was disaster. Had it gone on like that, there would have been enormous problems later, with great disparities of wages and new social classes being formed. We also wanted to collectivize, but quite differently, so that the country's resources were administered socially, not as individual property. The sort of mentality which believes that the revolution is for the immediate benefit of a particular sector of the working class, and not for the proletariat as a whole, always surfaces in a revolution, as I realized in the first days of the war in Madrid.'"

The other two questions presumably don't require answers. On Kronstadt see (a Trot source): http://www.marxist.com/kronstadt-trotsky-was-right.htm


 No.2683

>>2682

>

The differentiation of tribal communities into classes and the eventual emergence of the state were the results of primitive communal life impeding the material development of society. The state is an inevitable part of the development of human society in the period of classes. It will wither away once the final system of class exploitation (capitalism) has been defeated and the high material and cultural level associated with "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" becomes a reality.

His point is that states are inherently unable to destroy class systems because of the nature that a priveleged bureaucracy will emerged which creates state capitalism which is self serving and won't abolish itself according to him. He doesn't believe that a state can even achieve socialism because of this.


 No.2684

File: 1436427195917.jpg (36.1 KB, 600x420, 10:7, Stalin speaking.jpg)

>>2683

>His point is that states are inherently unable to destroy class systems because of the nature that a priveleged bureaucracy will emerged which creates state capitalism which is self serving and won't abolish itself according to him. He doesn't believe that a state can even achieve socialism because of this.

Yeah but that's not an argument, just an assertion. I much prefer an assertion by Lenin: "It will take decades to overcome the evils of bureaucracy. It is a very difficult struggle, and anyone who says we can rid ourselves of bureaucratic practices overnight by adopting anti-bureaucratic platforms is nothing but a quack with a bent for fine words."


 No.2685

>>2684

Good point.


 No.2688

>>2678

>I can“t actually provide a refutation of the arguments this person presents (probably because I'm poorly read, embarrassingly lazy, and just all around suck at this leftism thing), can someone else please provide the arguments I will probably not really understand either but that I can copypaste to deliver epic pwnages on my jordanian red tape board?

So this is what this shithole is for now? An entire AIDF team just so they can try to maybe get a point or two except not really, and then maybe they can get posted on /leftypol/ because that's going to change anything perhaps but again not really?


 No.2691

>>2688

Is there even an AIDF when there is only Ismail answering questions and posting scanned books?


 No.2692

>>2688

>Someone wants to learn criticisms of certain position

>Someone wants to learn things about x topic

>since they don't know anything they shouldn't ask questions.

Something about this seems logic seems counterproductive.


 No.2694

>>2692

>Someone wants to learn criticisms of certain position

>Someone wants to learn things about x topic

Qualitatively incommesurable statements.

>I want to learn about this topic, can you give me some pointers, or books, or anything that will help me in this endeavor?

versus

>I want arguments I can use against other people, I don't want to make the studying to refute them myself, I don't care about actually learning, I just want to stop getting rekt by anarchists on /leftypol/

Marxists fancy themselves scientists and yet every single time I see you do any intellectual work it's ever less scientific.


 No.2696

>>2694

I asked for arguments or counter-points because I was actually planning on making a response to this.


 No.2698

>>2696

Don't, because you clearly don't understand the argument being presented.

There are many sources in the video's description, start by reading those. Then maybe you will be in a situation to understand what is being said.


 No.2699

He is a feminist


 No.2702

>>2698

Who's saying I haven't been doing that? I incredibly simplified his position since Ismail didn't want to watch the whole video. I've actually been taking notes because I think it would be fun and educational for myself to try and make a response.


 No.2738

ITT: anarcho babbie used derail


 No.2739

>>2738

ITT: LELnin babbie bumps thread with nothing to contribute.

At least learn to sage, fucking tankie newfag.


 No.2740

File: 1438341127431.jpg (67.33 KB, 500x354, 250:177, image.jpg)

>>2739

>anyone I don't like is a newfag


 No.2742

>>2740

>i cant sage but im not a newfag guise

alternatively

>i dont sage my derailing shitposts but im not a newfag guise

off yourself newfag


 No.2743

>>2742

>Says the shitposter.


 No.2744

>>2743

>start shitposting

>get shitted back

>waaaa stahp zhitpotin

speaking of crybabies

also

>tu quoque

also

>newfag still can't sage


 No.2745

>>2744

I'm not >>2743

Also,

>this entire post

>>>/suicide/

>>>/gulag/




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