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File: 1446599408588.jpg (46.79 KB, 500x335, 100:67, Mao-And-Stalin.jpg)

 No.2973

/leftypol/ said you might be able to help me out?

What was the nature of the Sino-Soviet split, and why were so many Academics/Westerners/Activists who were so ready to stand with the Soviet Union averse to China (and/or vice versa). What's the beef?

PS I've even heard some put Mao's revolution in the same category as Hitler's (nationalistic and 'romantic'?), as opposed to October Revolution (?).

PPS. I know there are actually multiple questions, there, and they may have different answers.

 No.2976

File: 1446603073631.jpg (116.12 KB, 345x460, 3:4, Stalinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn….jpg)

Mao, like Tito, had led a revolution against feudalism and to unite his country. But, like Tito, he was not much of a Marxist. In power he was a nationalist more than anything. In the 1940s and much of the 50s his theoretical views justified policies that were clearly at variance with Marxism, such as the view that the bourgeoisie and proletariat could assume "non-antagonistic" relations with each other under New Democracy.

After Stalin's death the Soviet revisionists began pandering to nationalist elements inside the socialist camp, as signified by their rehabilitation of Tito (a move Mao himself fully supported.) But the revisionists, unlike Mao, were not interested in turning China into a world power and giving it nuclear weaponry.

In response the Chinese began to oppose the Soviets from what seemed like leftist positions. This would especially gain them followers among the third world countries who were opposed to the USSR's rapprochement with American imperialism and Khrushchev's calls for "peaceful coexistence" which essentially told those in colonies and semi-colonies to cease fighting for national independence.

By the beginning of the 1970s the anti-Marxist nature of Maoism was revealed internationally; Mao met with Nixon and openly aligned China with US imperialism. The "left" positions China took against the USSR were shown to have been demagogy. In the course of the 1970s the Chinese praised Tito and upheld the likes of Mobutu, the Shah of Iran and Pinochet as anti-imperialists.

In conclusion, the Sino-Soviet split reflected the interests of two powerful revisionist, state-capitalist countries, one emergent and the other already in a supreme position.


 No.2977

>>2976

I read somewhere someone was accusing the Maoist Revolution to be a 'romantic' one 'like Hitler' (and presumably unlike the USSR). Could you provide some insight on that?


 No.2980

File: 1446610561864.jpg (97.52 KB, 685x942, 685:942, Stalinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn….jpg)

>>2977

Yeah I don't know where that comes from. Comparing Hitler to Mao is pretty silly. The Chinese Revolution was real, it just never went beyond the bourgeois-democratic stage nor could it be termed a proletarian revolution. It certainly wasn't fascist.


 No.2981

>>2980

something about romanticism?


 No.2982

File: 1446612217041.jpg (305.03 KB, 988x1280, 247:320, Stalin as Commissar for Na….jpg)

>>2981

"Romanticism" isn't fascist though. Many bourgeois-democratic authors and artists were romanticists.

Mao historical role in China was, as Hoxha noted, that of a progressive bourgeois democrat. He fought against fascism.


 No.2983

File: 1446613231398.jpg (45.66 KB, 460x460, 1:1, ludwig_wittgenstein1.jpg)

>>2982

Okay, sure but I guess my question is: when Marxists use the term "Romanticism" what are they talking about?

Also, what's the difference between bourgeois and fascist romanticism in your world-view?

I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain for awhile. I find your language game to be interesting and somewhat exotic. Do you mind me asking if there is a certain orthodoxy with which you personally identify, or at least think you're the most similar to?


 No.2984

File: 1446615330618.jpg (35.8 KB, 600x392, 75:49, Stalin in Gori.jpg)

Marxists can use the term romanticism to refer to either the literary-artistic trend (such as Shelley in the case of the USA) or in the sense of having a romanticized (and thus oversimplified or idealist) view on a subject, e.g. a romantic view of revolution which underrates its violent content or the many stages the transformation of society has to go through.

In a sense Mao's views on revolution were romantic or sentimental, but IMO that term belongs much more to petty-bourgeois intellectuals like Sartre or Serge. The main impact of Mao's deviations from the Marxist-Leninist conception of revolution came from idealist Chinese philosophy and his own nationalism.

I don't know what "fascist romanticism" is. I can't exactly picture a romanticist author like Byron having much in common with German authors active during the Nazi period.


 No.2985

>>2984

>IMO that term belongs much more to petty-bourgeois intellectuals like Sartre or Serge

The idea came from Richard Rorty in CIS saying that Habermas was worried a revolution in the West would become a 'romantic' one like Hitler or Mao. This was in 1986, so the USSR was technically still around at the time.


 No.3163

Why there is a lot of french jews (Bernard Henry Levy, Alain Finkielkraut...) who were Maoists in the 1960s-1970s but became Neocons later in their lives ?


 No.3164

File: 1455777438698.jpg (199.93 KB, 960x845, 192:169, Molotov and Stalin.jpg)

>>3163

There have been many student radicals from the 1960s and 70s who have transformed into bourgeois politicians and academics. As far as French Jews go, Cohn-Bendit went from being an ultra-leftist who ranted against "Stalinism" to being a social-democrat (while, of course, still perfectly willing to rant against "Stalinism" if he ever has to do so.)

I don't think being a Jew has much to do with becoming a neo-con. If I had to guess why a bunch of Jews went from "left" to neo-con right, belief in a common Jewish identity and establishing a tie between that identity and the continued existence of the State of Israel probably accounts for the move into a specifically neo-conservative position, helped along by the fact that Jews are less likely to be socially conservative in the "WASP" sense and thus less interested in paleoconservative types.


 No.3165

>>3164

Thank you very much, I didn't expect an answer so quickly !

What do you think about "On the Jewish Question" by Karl Marx ? and about the Jewish Question in general ?

Also what are your thoughts on the Migrants Crisis and Massive Immigration in general ?

I know it's off-topic but the board is kind of dead.


 No.3166

File: 1455842212031.jpg (87 KB, 960x681, 320:227, Stalin is k00l.jpg)

>>3165

>What do you think about "On the Jewish Question" by Karl Marx ? and about the Jewish Question in general ?

Marx's pamphlet was written as a polemic against Bruno Bauer, an anti-Semite. Marx discussed the situation Jews were driven into by European society through centuries of persecution and restrictions on what occupations they were allowed to engage in. He noted that with the abolition of capitalism the Jew would be liberated from Judaism and from that peculiar status as a "huckster" and other negative roles anti-Semitism shoehorned them into.

>Also what are your thoughts on the Migrants Crisis and Massive Immigration in general ?

I think that the Western powers are the cause of the crisis and are hypocritically trying to deflect blame for it. Refugees ought to be supported against scapegoating and xenophobia, while at the same time attempts by the capitalist governments to cut social programs (citing "lazy refugees" or whatever) or pose as "defenders of national culture" should be opposed.

>I know it's off-topic but the board is kind of dead.

I don't mind. Better to be kinda dead than full of lameness.




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