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File: 1411501879012.jpg (43.55 KB, 850x400, 17:8, quote-a-house-divided-agai….jpg)

 No.61

Alright guys, are we going to stay on /leftypol/ or /marx/.

If we stay divided then it will only hurt both groups.


http://strawpoll.me/2632324

 No.65

The liberals and non-Marxists and such can stay on /leftypol/. Here is more focused.

 No.69

>>65
Yeah but im really afraid that this board is going to be unbearably slow unless we let some moderates in.

 No.72

>>69

Eh, let's see how it turns out first.

 No.89

>>69
Actually I wouldn't doubt that people from both boards with frequent both. At least ours looks cooler so people would want to stay.

 No.90

>>61
I've looked at both /leftypol/ and /marx/ and I far prefer it here. I think with any /pol/ board, you're going to have the /pol/ culture - that is, the inability to actually argue your point. Getting away from that stigma, perhaps in name only, is a worthwhile investment for the future.

However, /marx/ does look cooler, and the name looks better.

 No.418

Are we opposed to getting the RevLeft community in here, or does everybody consider them cancer?

I think RevLeft has some pretty good posters, but also a lot of circle jerking

 No.421

>>418

They are mostly cancer IMO. Full of Trots, SJWs, anarchists, and sectarians with no sense of pragmatism or learning from experience; they're just focused on fine tuning their snowflake ideologies. That being said of course there are some good posters as you said. The community overall is fairly shit though.

 No.423

>>421
I think /Marx/ is becoming too hostile to non-Marxist-Leninist ideologies. Trotskyism should be fully tolerated. As should tendencies like Left Communism and Luxemburgism

 No.425

>>423

What do you mean by 'tolerated'?
Praised?
Just post if you want to.

 No.428

>>425
It's just kind of ironic to call others sectarian and yet complain about RevLeft being full of Trots. Anti-Trotskyism is as sectarian as anti-Marxism-Leninism, it just matters on which tendency you come from.

 No.430

>>428

I don't consider Trotskyites to be valid Marxist-Leninists really. During the time when Trotsky was alive the Trotskyists were basically servants of the bourgeoise and underminers of socialism. And now they basically slander the Soviet Union and spread misinformation and bourgeois propaganda. Trotskyists slander it from Lenin's death onward. Those other so-called "tendencies" slander it since 1917. This isn't about feelings and soft 'tendencies', it's about the rightness and wrongness of theory and which side you're on. Trotskyites can still post, I just don't think they should necessarily go without harsh criticism.

 No.431

>>430
Trotskyists aren't Marxist-Leninists and we openly say we're not Marxist-Leninists. We say we're Leninist. Marxism-Leninism refers to branches if Marxism that hold that Stalin was a positive figure (among a lot of other things, I know I'm simplifying) but Trotskyists believe that he he dismantled the dictatorship of the proletariat.(again, a simplification)

 No.436

>>431

Trotsky was extremely critical of Lenin before he died. Then when he died, he claimed to be a devout Leninist and started criticizing Stalin. Trotsky was basically an opportunist asshole. So I correct my previous statement >>430 >Trotskyists slander it from Lenin's death onward.

He actually spoke against bolshevism the entire time before the revolution. After the revolution he spoke against Lenin, claiming to be a bolshevik. After Lenin died, he spoke against Stalin, claiming to be a Leninist.

I think most of his popularity nowadays comes from bourgeois propaganda that found its way into the minds of progressives. After all look at how Trotsky is portrayed in the bourgeois media. When he was alive, he served as a nice leading figure for anti-Soviet propaganda by the bourgeoise.

 No.437

>>436
> Trotskyism means you support everything Trotsky did

Is the opposite of accepting "bourgeois propaganda" holodomer denial and cult of personality inspired mental gymnastics?

 No.438

>>436
The Soviet Union started going downhill even under Lenin's watch. The ban on factions, the over-centralization of the state, and the authoritarianism that lingered even after the Civil War kind of let Stalin have his way once he got the upper-hand.

There's evidence to suggest Lenin was uneasy about the state of affairs in his last testament.

I understand for marxist-leninists criticizing anything the great leader did is somehow blasphemy and makes you anti-Leninist, so I get how marxist-leninists basically treat Trots as Heathens to be burned at the stake.

 No.446

>>437

The real mental gymnastics are those gone through when attempting to create a cohesive definition of Trotskyism.

>>438

>I understand for marxist-leninists criticizing anything the great leader did is somehow blasphemy and makes you anti-Leninist


It's not just about obeying the leader. It's about the political line and the actions of the party including its leader. Stalin held a good line and upheld the dictatorship of the proletariat and the revolution.

 No.508

>>61
At first I thought it would be a good idea to just have /leftypol/, but now I think it's a good idea to have a board just for marxists. I mean there's gonna be enough fighting just on /marx/ alone without each thread having people saying "Remember Stalin" on each thread.

 No.514

>>508

Yeah I think it's good to have a bastion of scientific socialism away from the quagmire of "general leftism".

 No.521

>>446
>upheld the revolution

By destroying any power the proletariat might have over the government and the means of production and creating a beaurocratic police state which fell away from the teachings of Marx and Lenin and was responsible for the deaths of millions?

I will never understand the cult of personality that surrounds Stalin. He completely bastardized original Marxist and Marxist-Leninist theory and was pretty much the worst thing to happen to socialism. In his time the original aims of socialism were all but abandoned to create a fascist state not unlike Nazi Germany, and because of him the current general public has very negative reactions to the words "socialism" and "communism" without really knowing what they mean. All they know is what Stalin created, and associate it will ALL of socialism. Socialists and Communists now have to completely rebuild their reputation, and try very hard to teach people what socialism actually means.

 No.528

>>521

Or maybe the bourgeoise has always been slandering socialism, and therefore has been slandering Stalin, one of it's most important leaders. Did you ever think that the "horrors perpetrated by Stalin" could be bourgeois propaganda, which Trotskyism seems to adhere to? Read some of his Stalin's statements and writings.

"The crushing bureaucracy" was a criticism of Marxism since Marx's own time. Trotsky was just carrying the anti-Marxist torch, passed down by the other non-Marxists.

Read "Another View of Stalin" if you get the chance, it's a book.

 No.529

>>521

>cult of personality


>buying into bourgeois khrushchevite dreck

 No.532

>>528
>Stalin diddin do nuffin!
>The holodomer is a lie!

>Hitler diddin do nuffin!

>The holocaust is a lie!

It's as if I'm back on halfchan /pol/…

 No.542

>>532

You don't need to jump to one "extreme" or the other. Lumping those two ideas together doesn't really say anything about their validity.

>holodomer


LOL

 No.556

>>542
It's good to see the posters on /marx/ find the deaths of millions humorous. Implying the "horrors of Stalin" were nothing but "bourgeois propaganda" really is the same as saying "Stalin diddin do nuffin!"

 No.563

>>556

>b-but muh millions..!

 No.565

File: 1411917625146.jpg (43.96 KB, 375x346, 375:346, image.jpg)

>>563
The average marxist-leninists is a psychopath incapable of critical thought

 No.574

File: 1411923690699.gif (992.8 KB, 250x250, 1:1, 1377468778786.gif)

>>565

>swallowing bourgeois "history" whole without even questioning it


And I'm the one incapable of critical thought, top kek.

 No.578

>>574
>swallowing party history whole even though the soviet communists deliberately distorted facts and events
>actually thinking Stalin diddin do nuffin
Holy shit how can you be so in denial? I guess the Great Leap Forward didn't kill anyone either?

 No.579

>>578

>I guess the Great Leap Forward didn't kill anyone either?


People died and there was famine. Mistakes were made but it wasn't the party's intent.

I think you have a distorted view of history. You think the same of me. How do you propose we resolve it?

 No.1320

>>69
You know what else is slow in coming? The inevitable collapse of capitalism. If instant gratification is your thing, go join Crimethinc. or any debauchee society. You must learn patience.

 No.1453

>/leftypol/
Even the name of the board sounds shite.

 No.1479

We have a pretty functional working relationship right now, with /marx/ being to /leftypol/ as /natsoc/ is to /pol/.

I could see a lot of /leftypol/ users migrating because of the BO's Ferguson retardation though.

 No.1502

File: 1417393399789.jpg (25.09 KB, 500x564, 125:141, 1415900534877.jpg)

>>579
>Mistakes
Yeah no, the famine in Ukraine was no mistake.
If it was, they'd have spread the food around. It was the deliberate attempt of a dictatorial to beat the most rebellious fraction of the population into submission, and freeing up good land for russian colonists. It was imperialism, pure and simple. Had no other practical use.

Also, I bet you have an explanation as to why it was a great idea to murder untold numbers of moscovite doctors ? They were all ennemies of the revolution, maybe ?

You also have a good fucking reason for the Moscow Trials ? And the systematic erasing of those condemned from all pictures and photographs ?

Stalin was just another fucking dictator who would have slaughtered half his country if it meant he could rule for a minute longer.
If you had at least had the decency of trying to try to defend other figures, like how Lenin ruled for such a short time it's hard to know how things would have turned out if he'd stayed, but no, you chose, deliberately, to defend the fucking worst of the lot.

The one thing he did was industrialize his country, paying with corpses for it. Just how Hitler built fucking highways. Thanks a bunch, but that doesn't excuse any of the other shit.

Even the USSR denounced his heritage after his death, what fucking more do you need ?

I can't even believe you have the gall to write "Mistakes were made" considering the sheer scale and diversity of the bullshit Stalin pulled.

 No.1507

>>1502

>The one thing he did was industrialize his country


Stalin socialized the country and fought an intense struggle against counterrevolution.

>Even the USSR denounced his heritage after his death, what fucking more do you need ?


And look where the USSR ended up. Look at the policies of his successor, his prime denouncer. Class collaboration and capitalist restoration.

By the way, the Great Leap Forward was in China; no Stalin involved.

 No.1524

File: 1417636588388.jpg (35.31 KB, 400x404, 100:101, enver_5th_congress_df.jpg)

>>1502
>Yeah no, the famine in Ukraine was no mistake.
It was certainly not intentional.

>If it was, they'd have spread the food around.

How could they when there were food shortages in other parts of the USSR during the same period?

If you want sources on the famine period, the most comprehensive bourgeois account is "The Years of Hunger" by Davies and Wheatcroft. Two other good reads though are:
* http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-russia&month=0205&week=a&msg=G9gRj0I/eXnblGCPQyYXlA&user=&pw (if you want a good summary of why the Soviets did certain things during the famine in the Ukraine)
* http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/library/tottlefraud.pdf (on how stories of the famine were turned into "omg stalin is killing them all")

>it was the deliberate attempt of a dictatorial to beat the most rebellious fraction of the population into submission, and freeing up good land for russian colonists.

This is the first time I heard that the Soviets sent Russian colonists into the Ukraine after the famine. Do you have a source?

The Soviets had a much more difficult time collectivizing land in Turkmenistan than the Ukraine, doesn't mean they tried deliberately inflicting a famine on the former. The Ukraine was the USSR's breadbasket region, local functionaries arduously denied any reports of food shortages so that they could appear in the best possible light to their superiors.

>Also, I bet you have an explanation as to why it was a great idea to murder untold numbers of moscovite doctors ? They were all ennemies of the revolution, maybe ?

"Untold"? A few doctors isn't tens of millions of people lol. Stalin's daughter claimed her dad didn't believe in the charges against the doctors, and more significantly the vigorously anti-Stalin "dissident" Zhores Medvedev claimed it was Stalin himself who was about to put an end to the case before he died.

>You also have a good fucking reason for the Moscow Trials ?

A number of persons were found guilty of collaboration with foreign states, sabotage and assassination.

>And the systematic erasing of those condemned from all pictures and photographs ?

That practice long predates the Soviets. Considering that such photos were used in propaganda, it didn't make much sense to place them next to people who were in good standing.

To give another example, when China invaded Vietnam in 1979 (in response to the Vietnamese ousting Pol Pot) there was a member of the Vietnamese leadership who defected to the Chinese side. His presence was blotted out of photographs afterwards as a form of punishment. Doesn't mean Vietnam denied he ever existed (nor did the Soviets deny Trotsky, etc. ever existed.)

>Even the USSR denounced his heritage after his death, what fucking more do you need ?

That depends on whether or not you think Khrushchev and Brezhnev were great communists and had no self-interested reason whatsoever to condemn Stalin, his policies and his theories.

 No.1525

>>1524

5 red star post comrade.

 No.1542

>>61
Leftypol is nothing but shit posts these days (even before the gg raid). I suggest we all move back here.

 No.1543

File: 1417957942140.jpg (276.44 KB, 606x473, 606:473, Hoxha in Dardha 1966.jpg)

>>1542
I'm always here, FWIW.

Sure I'll go go /leftypol/ to post in a thread about Hoxha or whatever, but I'll probably stop doing it after the current threads I'm posting in on there cease to exist.

 No.1548

>>1543

Was there some controversy with the admin recently or something? I heard it mentioned.

 No.1551

File: 1417966843900.jpg (270.33 KB, 593x781, 593:781, Hoxha in 1941.jpg)

>>1548
Where? On /leftypol/? I have no idea. I just know that it's filled with people who aren't very bright.

 No.1559

>>1543
That's too bad, but yeah I can see why you'd leave.

 No.1570

File: 1418104234695.jpg (40.99 KB, 534x532, 267:266, 1402902336396.jpg)

>leftypol
>Obsessed with identity politics as much as pol
>Now has black nazis in place of white Nazis
>They have become pol with an even larger superiority complex
That really didn't take too long



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