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8chan News Board Ring: /pn/ - Politics and News - /politics/ - Politics

File: 1458456826572.jpg (95.53 KB, 675x450, 3:2, gurgaon_india_gettyimages-….jpg)

 No.344581

What happens when a city is managed almost completely by private corporations? Visit Gurgaon, India, a boomtown of millions without a citywide system for water, electricity or even public sewers.

https://archive.is/papmm

>An unplanned city can grow at astonishing speeds. In 1991, India’s legislature passed a raft of economic reforms that opened sectors of the economy to foreign companies. At the time, Gurgaon was an unexceptional town of 121,000 people surrounded by vast tracts of fallow land. By a regulatory quirk, the land around Gurgaon was managed by a single agency, the chief minister’s office in the state of Haryana, versus India’s usual thicket of competing government agencies. It meant that developers’ plans in Gurgaon could be approved in a matter of days, not years. The result? Fast-track approvals for office parks, luxury condominiums, five-star hotels and golf courses. Half of the Fortune 500 companies launched satellite offices in the city’s gleaming high-rises, and it’s home to one of the largest shopping malls in the world. “There are parts of it that look like Singapore or Hong Kong or any world-class city,” says Rajagopalan. But rushing into a bureaucratic void posed a challenge for developers: Who, if not the state, would provide basic public services? “If you ask a regular person, ‘Would you want to live in a city that doesn’t have a functioning sewage system or garbage disposal or a good network of roads,’ they’d probably say no,” says Rajagopalan. So the developers had to convince potential renters to say yes — by filing in the gaps in the city’s sparse public services themselves.

>A dystopian world between privatized compounds. Gurgaon does have some public services; “old Gurgaon,” about 35 sq km in size, is technically a town with a municipal body to manage it. But there are intolerable gaps in the city’s infrastructure. Private security guards may secure the grounds of an apartment or an office complex, but that leaves massive security gaps in the rest of the city. “Between one industrial park and another industrial park are empty areas that are not safe areas at all,” Rajagopalan says. Sewage trucks will frequently bypass treatment plants and dump their contents on public land, and while it poses a health hazard to nearby slums, public officials don’t have the resources to counter such infractions. In short, Gurgaon’s success story is confined to an archipelago of private compounds populated by those who can afford to live there. Look beyond those select properties — and into the city’s slums — and Gurgaon presents an object lesson in the limits of privatization. There, the residents suffer from power and electricity shortages, and the same unsafe and unsanitary conditions that shape daily life for so much of India’s urban poor. The pressing question for them is how a rapidly urbanizing nation will absorb another 404 million residents into its cities by 2050, according to one United Nations estimate, and not suffer a complete breakdown of public services.

>One paradoxical solution to Gurgaon’s heedless growth — sell off still more of the city. Rajagopalan offers an unlikely solution to India’s growing pains. Yes, developers show a dismaying lack of civic responsibility beyond property lines. But a funny thing happens as they snatch up larger and larger tracts of land. They develop an incentive to build — and finance — the missing pieces of public infrastructure. “Right now DLF doesn’t find it in its interest to run its own huge sewage system, because it has only four or five small developments,” she says. “It’s not profitable to run to a main sewage line and then treat the waste. But if it had a large enough property, then it would absolutely do it — otherwise no one would live there.”

>The private city has a precedent: Walt Disney World. In the 1960s Walt Disney bought up a 25,000-acre wilderness known as the Reedy Creek Improvement District in Florida. Today, you probably know it as Walt Disney World, and Rajagopalan holds it up as an example of what private developers might need to do once they own massive parcels of land.

tl;dr- The private parts of the city work great, and the solution to the problems with the city are actually privatizing more of it.

 No.344596

Whenver I read a mainstream article about libertarian/capitalist/anarchist/just-letting-people-work-things-out-without-violent-rulers solutions, invariably I see the same faux-amazement that it could even work. The same "Oh, but it doesn't quite do things the same way as our oh-so-amazing government set up" nonsense. Saying its not ideal that independent devolopers ship out sewage rather than have a city wide sewage system as if its necessarily worse just because its not how governments do it is the standard statist crap I'd expect from TED. Have they done the economic calculation to see if its worth it? I bet the land owners did but the author don't mention it anywhere in the article, simply assuming its baaaaad.

Mainstream reporting on these things always reads like some 101 econ freshmen paper from a kid who just found out about Hayek. Its better than nothing but holy crap is it tedious. Its like they can't imagine any other world and so even small tastes of it just blow their minds.


 No.344602

>>344596

In reality, they probably tried to get a sewer plant put in, but they couldn't because of the Indian government taking forever to approve it.

India's government is extremely inefficient. It took them years to approve coke/pepsi to be sold in India, imagine how long it takes them to approve a public works like a sewage plant… Which they probably don't allow private individuals to build in the first place.


 No.344604

I actually feel ashamed for posting a designated shitting thread since I tend to keep my shitposting to crabs only.

That being said, I hope anons appreciate it.


 No.344605

>give private comanies more freedom

>lel we still need gubmint controls cuz muh moneys

>indian gubmint is highly inefiicient and corrupt

>something is still happening

It isn't libertarianism, just loose gubmint controls. But it's still a positive outcome.

Never heard that for communism.

"City espouses communism, prepares mars rocket in three days"


 No.344618

>>344602

>sewage system

>India

DESIGNATED


 No.344650

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

yeah a corporate run city is the best idea haha take that government fags!!!!

inb4 >vice


 No.344664

File: 1458469469428.jpg (23.44 KB, 400x224, 25:14, 1387652815331.jpg)

>>344581

So, in other words; it works!

Water, electricity, and sewage management is internalized to the private ownership of the rich, and the poor find out how worthless and lacking in any marketable skills they really are.

The system works.

t. bourgeoisie


 No.344666

>>344664

Besides it's not like India has particularly more success with public health in DESIGNATED areas with high government intervention.


 No.344686

>implying any system could work in India


 No.344689

>>344581

>isolated case of ayncrap actually working

Ok, ok, I have to be honest I am impressed.

This proves two things:

1. No government can be better than a shit government.

2. >>344604 Crab spammer who slides /pol/ news threads with crab bullshit confirmed as /leftypol/ shill. Post more threads like this if you hate /pol/ so much, your crab threads aren't funny


 No.344694

>>344664

>le ebil bourgeoisie boogyman

Socialist detected. Go put yourself in a trash can.

>>344689

Government is always shit.

>>344666

Satan trips checked.


 No.344721

B-b-but privatization is g-g-g-good!

F-f-fuck you communists!


 No.344724

>>344581

>tl;dr- The private parts of the city work great, and the solution to the problems with the city are actually privatizing more of it.

but the article shows that it doesn't work, as with every other case of privatization, and ends with the claim that more privatization will somehow magically make it work.

Fuck you're retarded OP


 No.344727

File: 1458480399281.jpg (541.33 KB, 793x1400, 793:1400, 1456618225401.jpg)


 No.344729

File: 1458480531014.gif (2.62 MB, 464x352, 29:22, 1391527400618.gif)

>>344724

>but the article shows that it doesn't work


 No.344731

>>344581

Every city in India has terrible problems with its public services like sanitation.

Another Libertarian experiment would be Hong Kong.

Hong Kong went from a fishing village to one of the richest cities in the world in 30 years.

This article just shows that Indians cant get their shit together and chinks can.


 No.344736

File: 1458481987767.jpg (365.51 KB, 644x425, 644:425, kowloon.jpg)

>>344596

Deregulated, decentralized authority does work in construction planning, the problem is it works like shit.


 No.344738

>>344736

>the problem is it works like shit

Shit means good in this context right?

I can never keep up with the lingo you kids are using.


 No.344765

>>344738

It produces results, but the results are garbage.


 No.344770

>>344765

Better than the literal garbage known as India's government.

I think it's pretty good when you factor in tye designated shitting streets surrounding them for miles.


 No.344773

Its a silly assertion. India's problem is that they're not white.

Libertarianism will never catch on in the white world for that same reason. There's a basic genetic understanding between whites that there must be some sort of central authority with limited powers just to keep everything tidy but to stay out of people's affairs.


 No.344855

>>344581

wow i'm converting to libertarianism now


 No.344868

BASED INDIA


 No.344874

File: 1458492756645.png (523.66 KB, 500x889, 500:889, intl.png)


 No.344877

>>344773

India is white dumbass. Only black people in india are the mudslimes because they have sandnigger genes.


 No.344878

>>344724

butthurt jealous pookistani detected


 No.344908

>>344877

>India is white

kek


 No.344912

india designated pooperpower 2020


 No.344923

File: 1458497656913.jpg (15.07 KB, 292x340, 73:85, 2.jpg)

>>344581

>or even public sewers


 No.344928

PRIVATIZED SHITTING STREETS


 No.344936

>>344877

>ugly smelly shitskins that are the closest thing to niggers

>white

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


 No.344940

File: 1458499007939.png (523.66 KB, 500x889, 500:889, intl.png)


 No.344945

>>344940

>everybody who disagrees with me is /intls*%$^%&/ goon SJW from le reddit


 No.344950

File: 1458499933242.png (63.12 KB, 856x1382, 428:691, Example1.png)


 No.344957

>>344950

not even on the same level as one of those guys from the other image leftpol, take your shit memes and go back to the cuck shed


 No.344971

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>344602

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licence_Raj

>The Licence Raj was a result of India's decision to have a planned economy where all aspects of the economy are controlled by the state and licences are given to a select few. Up to 80 government agencies had to be satisfied before private companies could produce something and, if granted, the government would regulate production.

This is why they shit in the street.


 No.344979

>>344581

Yesterday my car was stolen. Proof Libertarianism doesn't work.


 No.345010

>>344581

>owned and managed by private corporations

>libertarianism

Pick one, commie.


 No.345011

>>344950

>implying any of those guys were practicing capitalism

Kek.


 No.345025

At least read the article people.

It works. Basically the only problem would be "poor people don't get free shit".


 No.345026

POO ECONOMICS


 No.345045

they should stop experimenting with feminism instead


 No.345121

>>344877

India is Caucasian.

Caucasian does not equal white though. It just means they originate their ethnicity from the caucuses.

>>344773

>Muh genetic politics

Fuck off with that bullshit. Plenty of non-white societies have implemented forms of Libertarianism, the Zomians and the Somalis being the most common examples.


 No.345125

File: 1458512745827.png (243.35 KB, 580x606, 290:303, dca.png)

>>344950

1) None of 'em killed nearly as many people as the original meme picture.

2) Capitalists see these guys as evil fuckers right there with the leftys, we recognize what they did was bad and can tell you exactly why what they were doing was bad/where the state influence came into play

3) Capitalists don't go parading these fuckers around like lefties (see: Che Guevara T-shirts and Leninist flags)


 No.345129

>>344971

I need to save this vid so I can bring it up when NatSocs argue for their planned economies.


 No.345246

>>345026

poopernomics


 No.345268

File: 1458526403891.png (977.36 KB, 1600x1053, 1600:1053, 1458285892547.png)

POOPIE NOW COSTS 10 RUPEE

PRIVATE SHITTING STREET PORKIES ORGANIZED PRICE HIKE


 No.345274

>>344971

THIS

India is like Detroit on steroids


 No.345276

>>344950

>Leopold II

>Shah of Iran

>Pinochet

>any of these men being capitalist at all

It's like you don't read history at all, /leftypol/.


 No.345278

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

DESIGNATED SHITTY CAR

Dude is sweatier than Rubio


 No.345300

>>344727

I have always wondered, wouldn't the Amish be considered communist? They seem to be doing fine.


 No.345301

File: 1458528757833.jpg (14.83 KB, 285x249, 95:83, 1389239278625.jpg)

>>345276

>you dont read history

>your wrong

another quality argument with lots of verifiable sauces


 No.345307

>>344950

kek this is brilliant, loving the damage control in response too.


 No.345359

DESIGNATED SHITTING IDEOLOGY


 No.345392

File: 1458534092898.png (5.66 KB, 327x126, 109:42, militia extremists.PNG)

>>345010

Ancap (anarcho-capitalism) is a branch of libertarianism. It is more anarchist ("anarcho") than libertarian, but in a libertarian economy there would be pretty much no regulation either. The difference would be (from my understanding) instead of everything being completely privatized you would have very limited city/county/state governments, with very low taxes for things like infrastructure. So the gov is all but non-existent and the private sector can do basically whatever they want, short of buying up cities/counties/states.


 No.345405

>>344581

designated shitting city


 No.345409

>>345301

I'm not the guy you were replying to, but wouldn't you say that Leopold II (to pick just one of those four) was practicing authoritarianism (or imperialism at the very least)? He had complete personal control of a country and its people granted to him through the use of his position in government. Just because he sold their resources doesn't really make it equivalent to the capitalism that we have today, just as we don't compare the slavery in the American South with the capitalism of today.

I also don't see how you can draw doubt in the way that I just did with the communist leaders in the original image. Those men were clearly trying to implement a specific ideology/economic system through any means necessary.


 No.345416

>>345409

>>345409

>just as we don't compare the slavery in the American South with the capitalism of today

i don't even know what this means. slavery is capitalism in its purest form. chattel slavery especially


 No.345421

File: 1458537134708.png (111.83 KB, 500x500, 1:1, liberty political compass.png)

>>345392

same guy here, some of what I said may or may not be complete bullshit - maybe an actual ancap could come in and help (idk if they ever leave /liberty/)

Actual difference, summarized from a little reading:

>Ancap replaces all government with the free market and it's principles, "law" enforcement is done economically and by private police

>Libertarianism is way more broad, but is basically minarchist (small gov is necessary). (Anarchist libertarianism is paradoxical and is simply anarchism.) Libertarian capitalism would be essentially what we have now but with much looser or non-existent economic regulations, overall weaker fed, stronger state (and in some cases, county and/or city), very low/next to nonexistent taxes for things like infrastructure or public transit.

pic related might help you see the differences/where other things are

>>345416

>capitalism = slavery

That would be anarcho-corporatism (I made that phrase up just now, but it's meaning should be obvious).

What we are seeing in OP is more an example of ancap in action, if I understand ancap correctly. Certainly not exact but a lot closer than what we've seen before.


 No.345488

>>344581

the age old claim that people of all ethnicities are the same worldwide is proven false again and again

so how can you speak against american libertarians by pointing to India?


 No.345493

>>345300

As Libertarians and evolutionary psychologists have pointed out in the past, any political system within reason can work if you're working with 200 or fewer people.

The Amish split into two separate towns whenever they reach 150 people for a reason. They keep very strict population records in order to ensure they can maintain control over their local "family" groups.


 No.345500

File: 1458547215852.jpg (54.6 KB, 418x417, 418:417, fixed_it_up_for_you.jpg)

>>345421

>>345392

AnCap here who posted this thread well, AnCap that's turning AnChrist slowly but surely.

Libertarianism is a system of government that takes the "best" ideas from Democrats and Republicans, and tries to put it into a manageable system. Big L Libertarianism is, strictly speaking, old school Republicans for the most part with the occasional Moderate Democrat who's upset about all of the socialists infecting their party. Big L Libertarianism is the most compatible with a number of ideologies, leading to all kinds of weird fuckery like "Left-Libertarianism" and "Libertarian Nationalism." The most reading they've ever done are the constitution and very basic materials like "The Law." To the big L Libertarian, free markets are great until "dem dere illegals took ere jerbs!"

libertarianism is a system of government similar to what the founding fathers wanted. They tend to not use the capital L, and will typically use terms like "Paleoconservative," "Constitutionalist," "Objectivist," or "Classical Liberal" to distinguish themselves from big L Libertarians. They take the words of libertarian thinkers seriously, but usually with a heavy grain of salt. They like free markets, but are skeptical of them.

Minarchism is a system that holds that taxation is theft, but the three pillars of government (military, infrastructure, and courts) are justifiable theft because… Well, they come up with all kinds of crazy ways to justify it. They've typically read more dank shit like Rothbard, but take it with a grain of salt. Typically this is considered the cutoff point for when a free market can exist.

Voluntarism, Mutualism, and Agorism are an even more specific sub-branch that focuses on completely freeing the markets (though they have different means of going about it, Agorism being the most active and Voluntarism being more of an armchair libertarian approach). These groups tend to have a lot of solidarity with Minarchists, and have read the likes of Konkin, Roderick Long, and Hoppe, rounding out the rather brutalist approaches of Rothbard into a more manageable ideology. Typically when you hear someone use the term "AnCap" they're referring to Voluntaryism and Agorism, but the term is unintentionally used to describe our mutualist brothers as well from time to time. Depending on how "pure" their ideology is, they may consider things like Godord and Xeer to be anarchy, or they may only consider examples like Zomian culture or Cospaian elder councils to be legitimate anarchy.

Right now, the situation with this Indian city is somewhere inbetween minarchy and anarchy. The city itself is more easily described as a "minarchist state in which the minarchist rulers the land holders are not properly taking responsibility for what is theirs." Minarchists would suggest more direct intervention, whereas AnCaps would recommend to privatize more of the land to see what happens.

I doctored up this picture to represent the real anarchy ideologies, removing the shitty fake ones that no one uses.


 No.345501

>>345488

Except it's a success when you consider it's India. Read the article… The whole one, not the partial one I posted.


 No.345518

>By a regulatory quirk, the land around Gurgaon was managed by a single agency

Didn't even need to read half your post to figure the problem,OP. It's almost the marked wasn't free to work, and istead we had cronies in it's place, inflating an infrastructure bubble.


 No.345530

>>344581

lel.. come on.. people in India will not poo in the loo, irregardless of the economic system.


 No.345534

>>345518

Yes, I can tell you didn't read half of the post quite clearly since you could have saved yourself the trouble of writing that post if you had.


 No.345535

File: 1458554580170.png (465.77 KB, 3050x7553, 3050:7553, 1431291569862.png)

>>344950

Except they didn't commit 1.5 times 9/11 a day for a whole century.


 No.345536

>>345518

Because cartels can't happen in a free market, right?

An unregulated market leads either to crony capitalism and regulatory capture with a strong government or cartels and oligarchy with a weak state. The only solution is to let the markets do what they do best but regulate in such a way that outliers don't ruin it for everybody.

It does nobody any good that EvilCo went bankrupt (and rebranded themselves into NotEvilCo) after they poisoned the river. The river is still poisoned.


 No.345542

>>345536

Your basis is unfounded, and your premise is flawed.

What makes you think the government monopoly will be better than any of those "cartels" you mentioned? Public servants do not act different just because they are public. Their private citizen modes of thought do not suddenly change when they get put into a position of absolute authority.


 No.345552

>>345542

>Your basis is unfounded, and your premise is flawed.

And your assertion is unsourced. I use as my source the countries that have tried to regulate a market to remain free, the Northern European nations. A mixed economy where anti-trust legislation is actually enforced and where regulatory capture is kept at bay allows the free market to flourish. Free market does not mean Laissez-faire.

>What makes you think the government monopoly will be better than any of those "cartels" you mentioned?

You tell me. I'm arguing in favour of neither. I, unlike you, just recognize the failures inherent in both and suggest you try the solution that has already been proven to work.


 No.345741

>>345552

>I'm gonna make assertions and then claim it's everyone else's responsibility to prove me wrong lol

You sound like a Catholic.


 No.345776

This is not a valid test of capitalism.

>Run by an already formed foreign corporation.

Capitalism would best be tested through national capitalism. Have an internal minarchy with a nationalized currency and "smart trade" rules and regulations to protect against the not so capitalistic markets of other nations.

Side Note: All intellectual property laws are anti-capitalism. IP laws are government enforced monopolies that cause a whole host of problems and no solutions.


 No.346228

>>345500

Checked. That seems to clear it up well, thanks.




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