/o/ - Auto

Sorry but as a mechanic, people have no fucking idea of what they're up against. Not to manufacturers, not the legislators or the lobbyists.

Just the sheer magnitude of the complexity of modern car electronics. Think you can thinker with the code? OK, have fun debugging those 5 parallel data busses and not messing up the relationships between tens of data tables or not rendering modeled parameters worthless. The sheer magnitude of the complexity is mind boggling, this isn't like tuning a fucking megasquirt.

Even for us, the code and data aspect of the car is well hidden away below a thick abstraction layer through which penetration is nearly impossible, and thankfully so, even without dealing with those, modern cars are still a nightmare of complexity.

My car is going on relatively old (2004) and it's engine management is relatively simple versus what is new today, and I still would never dare think myself capable enough to fuck around in the computer's software.

Also, pause and think for a minute:

What will happen in most cases is people are gonna fuck with something, it's not going to go as planned, they'll being it in to the shop and what will the answer be?

>Can we fix it? No, you fucked it up.

And the world will be filled with bugged out cars no one wants to deal with. It's already enough of a pain in the ass fixing all the other shit people do to their cars when they try to fix it themselves.

>>3373
Regardless of the magnitude of complexity, people should have the option of tinkering, at their own risk. There are already a shitload of modified cars out there, complexity is nothing if you're an autist.

>>3377

It's still stupid.

I repeat: it's not that simple, and to think that you can do better with a USB cable and some data editor you got on the interwebs shows you have no idea.

Look, I'm all for manufacturers making things easier. Our shop started doing ECM reflashes and the amount of effort needed to do more than a small handful of manufacturers is nothing short of daunting. Really, it could all be a lot easier if besides the J2534 interface, the programming workflow and requirements were standardized. And that's not even mentioning the FORTUNE it costs to keep up with the access to manufacturer services.

>>3373
>>3378
Being a mechanic and being a programmer are different.

tfw i pirate my music through a hacked pandora app on my phone


i have unlimited skips, no ads, i can download songs that i give a thumbs up on the spot

its literally the new limewire

>>3379

The people that want to do this are neither.

>>3380
>its literally the new limewire

Tell me more.

>>3378
>muh complexity

>>3382
Don't underestimate autism
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=How-to-Electronically-Modify-Your-Car-Part-1&A=113146

>>3403

Even independant mechanics can reflash computer modules.

All it takes is a correctly configured computer, a J2534 interface and the right service subscription. Some manufacturers even give full fucking access to everything: With a J2534 and access to toyota's data service, you get full bidirectional access to every module on the car, just like the dealers have.

What cannot be done and what is completely normal is editing the contents of the software packages that are uploaded to a car.

You want independent mechanics to be able to easily work with the car's software? letting people fuck around with it isn't the way, make the programming requirements and equipment, workflow and data access easier to manage.

At the moment, if you want to handle a reasonable amount of manufacturers, you need about 3 or 4 different windows configurations, and subscriptions to each individual manufacturer that all have their own arbitrary terms of services and costs.

The SAE standardized the communication interface in the J2534 standard, but everything that happens at either end of that interface box is fucking chaos.

>>3412
Right I actually read the article instead of skimming and I can understand your complaint. But to me it seems like some lawyer could stroll up to your shop on behalf of whoever and say "No, you can't do that. We are taking you to court now".

Also I know the absolute Chaos that is trying to deal with electronic systems. Hell it's even worse if you work on anything before 1997 where they were shoving the interface port all-over the with different ports.

But to have a Law that fines anybody not authorized to work on a vehicle (Even independent mechanics according to the article) is ridiculous and frankly just having someone say "You fuck with the computer and you're on your own" would be better.

>>3414
>"No, you can't do that. We are taking you to court now"

Actually they can't, or rather they'd be fucking stupid to do so, manufacturers provide data services exactly for that purpose. You call them up, pay money, and get access to their service.

GM for example, has you login to a site and start a java web launch app through which you do the reflash. Vin, model, etc, you can select any module and see the revision history and download the latest. Say you install a fuel pump Josh module on a silverado? GM use the same on all their lineup so it comes completely blank, you have to use that system to flash the correct software to it. same for ECMs, BCMs, whatever. Manufacturers so want independents to repair their cars that some even publish software updates to improve the functionalities of generic scan tools.

The meat of the debate seems to be "inspect and modify the code", which will only lead to trouble. If the aim is to repair the vehicle, you do not need to inspect and modify the code, you need to install the correct part and flash it with the correct software.

And it's completely understandable that manufacturers don't want people looking at and tweaking their code, that shit costs millions upon millions of dollars and takes years and years to develop and tune.

>>3415
>The meat of the debate seems to be "inspect and modify the code", which will only lead to trouble. If the aim is to repair the vehicle, you do not need to inspect and modify the code, you need to install the correct part and flash it with the correct software.

although much earlier than the OBD-II cars being discussed, i actually have flashed and modified L98 ECU EPROMs which are written in assembly a few times where you actually have to modify tables for fuel with a program such as WinFlash, there are also archives with hundreds of stock and modified GM EPROM images available

although this was done to compensate for other modifications, not repair

>>3416

Yeah, that's also at the focal point of the discussion:

Manufacturers are perfectly fine, and even WANT independent shops to be able to repair their cars.

Modification though, they don't give a fuck about.