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File: 37c7cdd42f422c1⋯.jpg (4.89 MB, 4000x3507, 4000:3507, Christ_in_the_Wilderness_-….jpg)

f014c1  No.387[Reply]

Thread for all matters concerning fasting.

13 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.

bb310a  No.501

>>500

i know that even monks are allowed to eat meat sometimes if, say, politeness requires it.




File: 1330ef7bb6f7add⋯.jpg (29.12 KB, 500x334, 250:167, Catechism.jpg)

23aec4  No.32[Reply]

1 post and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.
Post last edited at

38b129  No.479

>>472

I wish there was more information about this guy, he truly seems like a wonderful person.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Sysoev




File: 0f2ab457c4e8a33⋯.jpg (12.84 KB, 195x295, 39:59, medecine of the world.jpg)

452f1a  No.438[Reply]

Here are the 10 chapters of the Third Book of Meqabyan (also called Ethiopic Maccabees), found only in the Ethiopian and Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox canons. It may be interesting to read and discuss, as it is not well known.

I make this as a separate thread since it is a separate book from the other two; however, know that some Ethiopian canons combine 2 and 3 Meqabyan as a single book titled "2 Meqabyan".

This is the translation made by Ras Feqade Selassie, (c) 2008. You can purchase it here: http://www.lulu.com/shop/feqade-selassie/ethiopian-books-of-meqabyan-1-3-in-standard-english/hardcover/product-20641621.html

I will post 5 chapters every day.

The plan of the book is:

1 - 2: Satan describes his story and perspective.

3 - 4: A prophet prophecizes against Satan, and explains why God made Adam.

5 -10: The prophet prophecizes against those men who follow Satan.

16 posts omitted. Click reply to view.

452f1a  No.470

>>469

Not as much as 4 Maccabees or Enoch, but it still shows a Jewish worldview that's different from what Christianity would later be like.

In 1 and 2 Meqabyan it seems that the Law of Moses is what will save at the last judgment. In 3 Meqabyan it is said that Adam was made so that he would fulfill the worship that Satan has chosen not to do. That's about all the "bizarre" stuff I could see. 4 Maccabees is 10 times worse in comparison.

Although either way I don't know how the Ethiopian Tewahedo interpret these books.




File: 1dfbec2d3b05ea1⋯.jpg (1.11 MB, 1200x799, 1200:799, holy_synod.jpg)

0c5b6b  No.1[Reply]

1. Be respectful of Orthodoxy. Shitposting and bantz are ok as long as they don't go out of hand.

2. Off-topic threads will result in a warning and then ban.

3. That's really it, and don't be a jerk.

13 posts omitted. Click reply to view.
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0f51e2  No.465

>>341

>our hugbox

Sorry we won't let you shit up the board jew.




File: 971f740c4ea9b90⋯.jpg (17.17 KB, 404x303, 4:3, wat-if-i-told-you-wat.jpg)

52baa1  No.485[Reply]

>be Kallistos Ware

>be a bishop

>be a former anglican

>support sodomy

>support ordination of women

>support contraception, divorce, abortion.

>be a "respected Orthodox theologian"

Not respected by anyone here I hope.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Kallistos_(Ware)_of_Diokleia

2 posts omitted. Click reply to view.

426595  No.492

>>491

Besides, a lot of the OP's accusations are nothing more than libel. "We must have a serious discussion on this topic because we have yet to suggest an Orthodox reason for why we do or believe this" is not equal to supporting liberal and sinful practices. Mgr Kallistos criticizes many times (rightfully so) the fact that, on these issues (pastoral treatment of homosexuals, ordination of women, contraception…) we never meditate and give an answer from Orthodox theological perspective, but either fall back on Papist or Protestant arguments, or simply say "this is how we've always done it".

I don't know his view about ordination of women, but I know for a fact that the accusation that he is pro-LGBT is plain false. He pointed out the hypocrisy of the usual pastoral treatment of homosexuals: heterosexuals who indulge in premarital sex, cohabitation, even adultery, are allowed to receive communion out of mercy, but homosexuals who are in a non-sexual relationship are strictly excommunicated. This is not normal - in what world is romantic attraction (without intercourse or other kind of intimacy) a much more grave sin than fornication and adultery? In what world should communion be given to fornicators out of extreme mercy, but no such mercy can be extended to homosexuals who do not fornicate? There is clearly an imbalance - maybe we should also let chaste homosexuals commune, maybe we should be more strict regarding fornicators communicating, maybe there is a third option, but in all cases this is a discussion that needs to be opened, especially as Orthodoxy prides itself on being more pastoral than Western Christian communions are.

That being said, Mgr Kallistos does say things that bother me. He's way too irenic about the Council of Florence, and is honestly on the edge of heresy because of this in my opinion.


812e9f  No.493

>>492

OP here. He's literally written a book on the ordination of women priests.

We should not be mediating if mediating means liberalizing doctrine because muh current year. We are the one, holy, apostolic Church with continuity going back to the early church and ecumenical councils.

We must not budge on anything.

"This is how we've always done it" is a perfectly good argument.

>>487

I do respect the title, but this whole matter is depressing. Indeed I just listen to my own bishop.


3bcfeb  No.498

>>493

>we must not budge on anything

what does it mean to "budge"? The reason we have bishops governing their areas is because the bishops have the authority to govern in their territories and because they know what's the situation on the ground. A common example of apostolic authority was when the Serbian patriarch allowed abortions for serbian women raped by turks within a certain period of time (a year).

So it's not like we "shouldn't adapt to anything ever", but there are also some core principles that should be adopted and kept. The line is indeed gray between these two understandings I guess.


80b7df  No.503

>>492

If homos have been excluded for 2000 years from communion they should remain excluded. Tradition is what's proven to be good, and this is what tradition demands.


453426  No.504

>>503

The point is that it is vague enough to point out hypocrisy and leniency regarding extra-marital affairs of heterosexuals and chaste homosexuals. IMO both should be excommunicated or suffer some degree of penance until they repent. It's an inconsistency that is done out of convenience instead of out of righteousness.




YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

d917c3  No.475[Reply]

A short interview with Father Spyridon regarding his book Orthodoxy and the Kingdom of Satan.

16ef8b  No.478

File: c76c7c53b140bf1⋯.png (1.08 MB, 1098x1645, 1098:1645, green_is_my_pepper.png)

>>475

could you upload a non-youtube link? I really hate that service and would appreciate if you could do either a mega.nz upload or some other way for me to download and view it on my own.


d917c3  No.481

File: 8c834f8c56d8e3a⋯.jpg (305.51 KB, 1257x2050, 1257:2050, 81Ta4XkmEAL.jpg)


d917c3  No.489




File: 54ed9684efe8d1e⋯.jpg (44.3 KB, 330x450, 11:15, tsar_nicholas_icon.jpg)

6792c8  No.3[Reply]

Should Tsar Nicholas be recognized as a saint?

http://pravoslavie.ru/english/105541.htm

thoughts?

12 posts and 2 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

918ef8  No.143

File: c474894dec924fc⋯.jpg (135.75 KB, 1024x768, 4:3, e4078c71329b308604256c463a….jpg)

The Romanovs are all saints because they were martyred by communist filth.


116a3b  No.146

File: 485d2e739756ddd⋯.jpg (39.74 KB, 564x728, 141:182, nicky_as_captain.jpg)

>>143

I agree with this, especially if you look at the history of communism and the masonic/jewish "killing of the king" ritual. Some people think that the romanovs shouldn't be saints because they were killed not for their faith but for their "bad policies" during their rule. However, I think that if we examine the jewish influence in the revolution of 1917, the fact that they were violently murdered because he was an orthodox tsar is undeniable.


858465  No.474

Yes, obviously.


ebc61a  No.484

Glad it's so unanimous in here. On the thread on this on /christian/ I had to debate tooth and nail against the modernists.


4b82fc  No.486

File: 9cceaf32781580b⋯.mp4 (9.56 MB, 640x360, 16:9, bozhe_tsarya_hrani.mp4)

>>484

>modernists

more like JIDF




File: 5281900ceccd895⋯.png (191.62 KB, 2192x3912, 274:489, cringe.png)

9bd7ee  No.28[Reply]

I get that we have ministries like DTTW which honestly attempt to evangelize a specific niche. But DTTW aside, has Orthodoxy within the US, or even within North America, become more or less a shelter for those rebelling against Protestantism and Catholicism? I would rather take in converts who were sincere in their approach and not just because they came across some meme. pic related.

35 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.

aebe64  No.459

>>454

but you would agree that racemixing in general is a bad thing? Like, if you fornicated with a woman, and then you came back to church, you wouldn't be kicked out of church for fornication, would you? I feel like it's similar here, the church says "you made a mistake, now go and fix it in the best way posssible by keeping the marriage together".


7bb682  No.463

>>459

>but you would agree that racemixing in general is a bad thing?

It is my understanding that racemixing is an America-only issue. We "are all God’s children, through faith in Christ Jesus! For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal. 3:26-28)

It seems that the Church has never unnecessarily opposed the social customs. If racemixing is viewed badly, makes tensions and uncertainties for the social status of the progeny, then maybe racemixing is bad for this particular society. We should realize, however, that America is not the world, for example in my country race is literally nothing and the word "negro" is a perfectly normal word without any negative connotation.

Interestingly, it seems there is one racemixing incident in the Bible. The wife of Moses was black. Apparently Aaron and Miriam (brother and sister of Moses) didn't like this and accused Moses for taking a "Cushite" woman (Numbers 12:1). Here the word "Cushite" is used as an insult because Zipporah, the wife of Moses, wasn't Cushite but Midianite (a tribe originating from South-West Arabia).


4c07ef  No.466

>>463

I call BS. The most racist people I've ever met were Norwegians and Brits. You may not appreciate it because of how rare it is to encounter other races in Europe broadly, but it is certainly there. Acting like it's a bad thing is destructive to you imo. Lying by degrees is still lying.


7bb682  No.467

>>466

Look, I am not saying you won't find nationalism in Europe. And I don't say this is necessarily a bad thing. My only point was that there are places in the world where the skin color is non-issue simply because the other races are so rare there. So my answer to the question "Is racemixing in general a bad thing?" is this: it depends on the society.

I think that it is a bad thing to impose universal social norms everywhere. The social norms keep balance in the society. In same cases the interference with the social norms can be harmless or even beneficial, in other cases, however, this can be destructive for the society. The things that happen in the American society are simply self-protective reaction. Of course, the other other societies have their own different self-protective reactions. And it is so easy to accuse another society when its issues are non-issues at your place.


e57a42  No.483

>>459

Since race and culture are intertwined, these interracial marriages rarely work and are a modern innovation. I would agree with you.




File: 35810cbfca5bbd4⋯.jpg (47.16 KB, 554x380, 277:190, Catholic vs Orthodox.jpg)

66ebcf  No.37[Reply]

I am noticing an uptick in the amount of Catholic vs Orthodox posting on /christian/. Can't tell if false flagging going on or not.

34 posts and 5 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

a7070f  No.401

>>278

>I tell you: you will not have finished going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes

It would help if you understood what I meant by this.


992782  No.457

>>397

>EUflag

oh boi

In St. Justinian's law it says the empire should execute gays, so I think prison time is merciful and Christian. Maybe they can use the time to contemplate their depravity and find Christ.

Dostoevsky became a Christian and supporter of the Tsar after his Siberian imprisonment, so that's something.


357c3d  No.461

>>457

St. Justinian's law also said that Jews were barred from any government office, are you saying we should do that too now?


76da8d  No.468

>>461

Yes.


747eab  No.473

>>461

100%




File: 565bf03c19a4f6d⋯.jpg (62.93 KB, 372x500, 93:125, Dr643mhWoAESk9N.jpg)

4e7c3e  No.456[Reply]

I have a serious question. If I look at a woman and think "she looks pretty", even for an instant, is that a sin I need to confess to my priest? Asking as a young man looking for a wife.

What constitutes a lustful thought?

08e38a  No.460

>>456

I feel like many people misinterpret this. Chemistry cannot be a sin. And even if it is, it's such a minor one that the priest doesn't need to hear it (after all, you don't confess some automatic bodily chemical responses of anger, pride, etc. to your priest).

But back to the question, I don't think it's even a sin. It's chemistry: if you look at someone and you see a potential partner, you brain chemistry kicks into procreation mode. What is sinful, however, is to fantasize about it outside marriage. The brain response is not a sin, but it can become one if you don't control it.


7a229a  No.462

>>456

I think a lustful thought is when you think about performing sexual acts on a woman.


e321f1  No.464

>>462

Pretty much this. If you look at a woman and think she's pretty, there's nothing wrong there. It's when you imagine her in depraved positions and wish to sleep with her that you commit that particular sin.




File: fa6126cfff4e096⋯.jpg (3.52 MB, 3840x2160, 16:9, Noravank.jpg)

949e68  No.386[Reply]

Is this board only for Eastern Orthodoxy.

Yall need to see the light

Oriental Orthodoxy is the way

d22ae6  No.437

>>386

Make your case then


2cd8ee  No.455

>>386

Miaphysite or Monophysite?




File: 4b894b71f38e15c⋯.png (51.73 KB, 1329x468, 443:156, eo.PNG)

5d56e8  No.416[Reply]

1 post and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.

e95bfc  No.419

I can't think of a way to ever convince a Catholic against Catholicism, and no matter how much you pretty up the argument that is exactly what you must confront. It's a peculiar frustration they hold, that the Church is not decisive enough for their liking. I find it more convincing that the majority of the Apostolic Churches rejected papal primacy as understood by Rome as much as they rejected the filioque as understood by Rome. Let it never be said that Catholics aren't faithful.

That being said, I think it particularly interesting that he left Orthodoxy for Francis and not just the Catholic Church.


e078ba  No.429

>>416

Some people simply lack the courage to stand up for what is right, and will always just stick with the bigger/stronger party. You can't help them. Whatever arguments he gives are just excuses.


70bee3  No.431

>>418

>catholic university of ukraine

Many people in Ukraine and Poland reject Orthodoxy only because they hate Russia and many people in Croatia reject Orthodoxy only because they hate Serbia. Human weakness.


02a1fd  No.435

>>419

If he left because of Francis, that almost seems like he woulnd't be too welcome in trad orthodox churches (he might fit in GOARCH better).


02a1fd  No.436

>>431

I feel like in those situations, I would understand if say Croats stayed Catholic. Catholicism became part of their national identity, and I woulnd't blame them for sticking with it despite my belief in Orthodoxy. National identity is very closely tied to religion, so if it keeps people in line moral-wise, then it's better than trying to destroy their identity to try to accommodate orthodoxy.




File: f8bd93ad6bacfa9⋯.jpg (126.26 KB, 478x600, 239:300, _Patrick-the-EnlightenerFl….jpg)

7925a7  No.432[Reply]

>what is the western rite?

The western rite is a century old movement within Antiochian and ROCOR churches that use pre-schism (sometimes even post-schism) liturgical styles and devotions. Parishes tend to have a strong focus on western saints such as St. Patrick and Venerable Bede in addition to our eastern saints. Many western rite monastics are Benedictine monks, as that order predates the schism.

There are also a number of non-canonical Orthodox synods with western rite parishes and monasteries.

>where can I find a western rite parish?

There are a number of parishes spread out across the US and Europe, the churches will either belong to Antioch or ROCOR. Your best bet is looking online, but you can ask fellow Orthodox Christians if they know of ones nearby. If you plan on visiting a western rite parish, make sure you know which jurisdiction they are part of.

>what are some western rite resources?

The following links could serve as an introduction for those interested in learning about and practicing the western approach to Holy Orthodoxy:

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2007/03/16/the-breastplate-of-st-patrick/

https://westernriteorthodoxuk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Old-English-Prayerbook.pdf

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Western_Rite

http://orthochristian.com/42686.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Rite_Orthodoxy

Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

7925a7  No.433

File: 39bcc31e5bfec6b⋯.jpg (71.7 KB, 666x491, 666:491, St._Brendan_America_explor….jpg)

Also please note that there might be western rite parishes under other jurisdictions than the ones mentioned above, though I only know of ones belonging to ROCOR or Antioch.


de56a2  No.434

>>432

>>433

I feel like Western rite would be more popular with people at ROCOR and Antioch if less people thought of orthodoxy as least partially as this "super duper exotic eastern religion". Because of a high number of people like this, people who treat orthodoxy like westernized buddhism, it seems ROCOR is not really keen on supporting these parishes.

Because this is relatively new and different from established orthodox traditions, wacky stuff soemtimes happens in those parishes, especially after a recent bishop who was "covering" western rite parishes in ROCOR was forced into retirement.

I wish Western Rite parishes can hold on for as long as it takes to establish a stronger liturgical tradition and presence as part of canonical Orthodoxy so that this doesn't just get shut down after the people in Moscow or Antioch are tired of the hassle.




File: 729cfb9087754ca⋯.jpg (1.35 MB, 2542x1524, 1271:762, ethiopian orthodox.jpg)

fc3bab  No.378[Reply]

Here are the 21 chapters of the Second Book of Meqabyan (also called Ethiopic Maccabees), found only in the Ethiopian and Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox canons. It may be interesting to read and discuss, as it is not well known.

I make this as a separate thread since it is a separate book. I will make a third thread for 3 Meqabyan when this is done, and then it will be over.

This is the translation made by Ras Feqade Selassie, (c) 2008. You can purchase it here: http://www.lulu.com/shop/feqade-selassie/ethiopian-books-of-meqabyan-1-3-in-standard-english/hardcover/product-20641621.html

I will post 5 chapters every day.

The plan of the book is:

1 - 4: Maccabeus, king of Moab, terrorizes Israel but, listening to the prophet Re'ay, repents and converts to Judaism together with his kingdom.

5 - 12: Tseerutsaydan invades the region. Persecution of Maccabeus' children, and death of Tseerutsaydan.

13 - 21: The martyrdom of Maccabeus and his children, contrasted with the death of Tseerutsaydan, leads to a reflection on death, the resurrection, and the last judgment, in opposition to the beliefs of the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Samaritans.

24 posts omitted. Click reply to view.

527f6a  No.424

CHAPTER 20

And believe me that all our Works that we worked in this world won't remain nor be hidden at the time we stood before Him fearing and trembling.

And at the time we didn't seize provisions for our path, and at the time we won't have clothes for our bodies, at the time we won't have a staff for our hands nor shoes for our feet, and at the time we won't know the paths where demons take us, whether it be slippery or smooth, or be it dark and whether it be thorns or nettles, or whether it be a Water depth or a pit depth, believe me that our Works that we worked in this world won't remain nor be hidden.

We won't know the demons who take us and we won't hear their thing.

As they are black ones and as they lead us to darkness, we won't see their faces.

And like the prophet spoke saying, "At the time my soul was separated from my flesh, Lord, my Lord, Thou know my path, and they hid a trap on that path where I went, and I saw returning to the right. I lacked one who knows me, and I have nothing there whereby I will escape", as they take us to darkness, we won't see their faces.

As he knows that demons ridicule him, and as they will lead him to the path he doesn't know, his speaking this is because of this, and if he returns leftward and rightward, there is no person who knows him.

He is alone amidst demons, and yet there is none who knows him.

Angels of Light who are subtle, are who are sent toward kind persons, that they might receive righteous ones’ souls, and might take them to a place of Light, to the Garden, where welfare is found.

Demons and Angels of darkness are who are sent that they might receive them and might take them to Gehenna that was prepared for them that they might receive their hardship by their sin that they worked.

Woe to the souls of sinners who take them to destruction, who have no welfare nor rest, nor escPost too long. Click here to view the full text.


527f6a  No.425

CHAPTER 21

Where are persons who gather a foreigner’s money that wasn't the Work of their hands, nor their money?

For they take a person’s money for free, and they shall be gathered without knowing the day when they died that shall arrive upon them, however they quit their money for a foreigner.

For like unto their fathers, they are sinners’ kindreds, who worry and seize sinners like unto them, whether it be by theft or by robbery, and their children won't be joyful in their fathers’ money.

As they have gathered for them in violence, and as it is like unto misty urine and like unto the smoke that wind scatters and like unto wilting grass, and like unto wax that melts arising from before a fire, as sinners’ glory shall perish like unto that, there is none whom their fathers’ money will benefit. Like David spoke saying, "I saw a sinner man being honoured and famed like unto a cordia and like unto a cypress, but at the time I returned, I missed him. I searched and didn't find his place", there is none whom their fathers’ money will profit nor benefit.

Because they gathered a person’s money in violence, it seeming to them that they won't die, like persons who wrong their companions won't boast, sinners’ destruction is likewise at one time.

You lazy ones, think that you will perish and that your money will perish with you, and if your silver and your gold abound, it shall be rusted.

And if you birth many children, they shall be for many graves, and if you work many houses, they shall be demolished.

For you didn't fulfill your Creator JAH’s Accord and if you multiply livestock, they shall be for your enemies’ capture, and all the money you seized in your hands won't be found, for it has been what wasn't blessed.

Whether it be in a house or in a forest, and be it in a wilderness or a pasture place, and be it in a grape threshingfloor or in a grain threshingfloor, it won't be found.

Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

527f6a  No.426

And He will dispute for them in Judgement time and He shall save them from an evil thing and from tribulation and from all who dispute them. In the first era, if a priest lived who works the Tent Work, who keeps the LAW and keeps the Tent Order and lives firmed up in JAH’s Accord, by the first Order and all the LAW, as they would give him the tithe and what was birthed first beginning from humans up to livestock, He would save them from all the tribulation.

Like Moses commanded Nun’s son Joshua, there was a country of sanctuary in all their country. By not knowing and by knowing until they judged a judgement against him whom they convicted and for him whom they acquitted, if a person lived who killed a soul, he would be measured there that he might be saved.

He told them, "Examine in your reasonings that he has a quarrel with him formerly, and be it by axe or be it by a stone or be it by wood, as it has fallen from his hand by not knowing, if he says, 'That person upon whom it fell died on me' examine and save him. If he did it in not knowing, let him be saved.

But if he does it knowing, he will receive his hardship like unto his sin and there is none who will pardon him; but if he kills him in not knowing, as he has done it in not knowing, examine and save him lest he die.

He worked for them that they might distance from all the sin, yet Moses would work like unto this for the children of Israel lest they depart from JAH’s LAW.

He commanded them that Adam’s children who live firmly in JAH’s Commands from worshipping idols, and eating what died and lodged, and what a sword bloated and cut, and who distance from all evil works like he worked for them that they might work it and might totally distance from all that isn't due.

He commanded them lest they depart from the Commands He worked for them in example of the Tent in Heaven, that they might save their bodies and might find their lodging with their fathers.

As they have been birthed from Seth and Adam who did JAH’s Accord, persons who believed in JAH’s Word anPost too long. Click here to view the full text.


527f6a  No.427

This is it for the Second Book of Meqabyan. I'll take a break and give my thoughts later, I'm really tired.


527f6a  No.428

Some remarks…

- In chapter 8, Tseerutsaydan's kingdom is identified with the kingdom of iron and clay in the Book of Daniel. Exegesis usually recognizes this kingdom as being either the Seleucid Empire or the Roman Empire, which leads further credibility that Tseerutsaydan is Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

- However, in chapter 12, Tseerutsaydan is said to die from a heart attack right after claiming divinity. This isn't how his death is related in 1 and 2 Maccabees.

- The author's understanding of original sin is incredibly close to that of Paul. Note that this isn't the only pre-Christian document that explicitly claims the doctrine of original sin.

- The attack against the Pharisees, Sedducees and Samaritans is bizarre, especially the attack against "the Jews". Could it be a Christian interpolation? One could think it was written by a Pharisee who is not favorable to the mainstream Pharisee doctrine that the resurrection will be more like a reincarnation, but who knows?

- Note that pagan temples are called "mosques" in this and 1 Meqabyan. I assume it's meant to be "masgid", which means "place of worship".




File: 33eebd4ba12a9d6⋯.jpg (226.87 KB, 1200x754, 600:377, Kiev Lavra.jpg)

0584f4  No.39[Reply]

What are your thoughts on the politics of the Ukrainian government trying to take over the Kiev Caves? It is fairly obvious that the state, by fusing the two schismatic churches together into a national church, will attempt to force out the canonical Ukrainian Church. Porky and the Ukrainian government would do this in order to take the caves from ebil Russians and set it up as a much needed national symbol. I have a feeling if it goes through, we may see an increase in violence again. Imagine if the Greek government backed a schismatic sect and allowed them to control all of Mount Athos, would almost be the same situation.

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d2c2f9  No.352

>>349

I wouldn't say that's a compelling case to support a remain decision. The Church shouldn't be this involved at all. It's a question of how to determine jurisdiction and that is clearly delineated by country. If Ukraine is just an amalgamated country, why do they operate with great autonomy within the ROC? Why are they, who are greater in size and prominence, still under ROC jurisdiction while the OCA is autocephalous?

I don't know much nor think it particularly matters in this instance. The Ukranians and Russians have entered into conflict. That should be a moment where officially at least the two part ways while it resolves, not become tools for various state governments to wield over the people. When you hold onto the ethnic church rather than the jurisdictional church, you get situations like America. I would not want that for anyone.


721ac1  No.371

>>352

You're right, but I think you're missing a point that was not explained yet in this thread. The point being that separation of church and state is viewed as unnatural. The state and the church should be like two vital parts of the living organism that is the Church of Christ.

That being said, Putin isn't a God-annointed tsar, so saying that the current russian government is God anointed is a real stretch. But on the other hand, the western influence that the Ukranian church is bringing is in direct conflict with the faith.

The shit that goes on in the Ukranian church might seem very weird, because it is. Firstly, the Ukranian church is led not by an ROC metropolitan: he was in schism since 1994 or something. He had his own church that was very small and only took off when Maidan and all that shit happened. Then they started confiscating church property from ROC churches.

They also paint icons of living people (patriarch Philaret in particular). They depict putin as the demon in churches.

I get your concern, but I feel like if the Ukranian Orthodox church gets their way, it would open the floodgates to western influence into the Russian church, and that would then lead to gay propaganda and modernization of the church, something which goes directly against church law.


d2c2f9  No.374

>>371

Both governments officially espouse separation of church and state and are on paper democratically elected. This is not a feudal system. The synthesis of Church and State can only work in a feudal system, otherwise you're going to get something like early America where "the politicians sound like preachers and preachers". That ruins churches, not helps them. to emphasize that is only in relation to a democratic system. There is no government or nation on Earth I would want to meddle with the Church in such a way these days. The Church should reflect the true reality of man, while gently guiding them back to Christ. Pretending like we are still in an absolute feudal world is dangerous.

I'm not opposed to a feudal society, or of the Church being a part of the Government. I only believe that the Church getting this involved at this time will only ruin it. We, as Christian's, have no true home on Earth. We are like the Israelites in Exodus, strangers in a strange land. Our only true home is that of the Kingdom of Heaven. Anything else is a dispensation.

As for Ukraine, I thought Bartholomew had created and appointed a third church, and that earlier church is currently dwindling because of it. I would never support any of the former churches actions. I only support the move because I believe it to be technically sound. I trust neither Russian or Ukranian to do it correctly. I see this as only a mournful situation. I am keenly aware of the many flaws and fractures that the US would use, and how easy it is for the Ukranians to fall into it. In that same breath I know very well what the Russian government has done to both the Orthodox and Catholic Church in the past and make no delusion about it. Frankly, the only church I would support fully in this situation is ROCOR unless they too are incredibly subverted by the US, but from memory they haven't been.


d2c2f9  No.375

>>371

As for your last concern, I would look to the OCA and ROCOR as examples of a deeply American Church. Surely Ukraine would be targeted harshly, but it is possible to fight the rot.


10fa21  No.407

>>374

>>375

What do you mean by feudal? It seems like you meant to say autocratic which is different.

>Church getting this involved at this time will only ruin it

perhaps, maybe not "right now". But I still think the church should be active politically, at least in order to preserve the interests of the church. If you don't, you will get California where priests will soon be required by law to break the seal of confession. You will also get globohomo and widespread porn if the church doesn't act politically (just look at Hollywood).




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