>>135>>650These two guys are close, but
>>650 loses it in the end because he has bought into the right wing slander that Left/Liberals are socialists.
I particularly take umbrage at this:
>You are eithr a collectivist or believe in self determination. Obviously bullshit, because collectivism is still self determination in a democracy. Unless everyone happens to be anachro-capitalists, so long as Liberal principles like universal suffrage apply, then your society is self-deterministic.
Gun control is always an issue that is brought up to show just how "anti-individual" the left is, but that's laughable because the far right conservatives have just as long and stories history of suppressing individual rights for the sake of religion or tradition (Anti-miscegenation laws, including religion mixing, porn censorship, alcohol prohibition, both are anti-free market activities and inherently anti-individual)
The truth is that society will always, one way or another, either through political or cultural means, establish a group of norms that people live by. It doesn't matter if it's "everyone has to wear a hat outside" or "no one can own a gun". This is neither a left or right issue, all people indulge in this.
Anyway, as for OP
>>126The easiest way to think of this is that both side of the political spectrum are actually coalitions of self interests and ideologies that are "mostly" compatible (but not always).
On the right, you will have free market capitalists that will never call themselves "conservatives" because they view conservatism as being inherently anti-individual rights (which makes sense, because political adherence to tradition is anti-individual choice)
On the left you will have civil libertarians that support gay marriage and racial equality on the grounds of individual rights, but would never call themselves Marxist's because while they may support neo-liberal fiscal policy (mixed economy) they still put a premium on individual property rights.
And of course, many people will have various cross-over beliefs but just throw their hats in with one side or the other depending on what their cultural view is and people frequently mislead themselves by pretending whatever side they favor is the only side that supports their agenda, instead of understanding that support for most ideals of Liberalism is broad, but just varies in priority by region/cultural identification/political party.
To summarize - Most people are Liberals, they just lean left or right. In fact, most people are neo-Liberals to some degree or another (look it up). Depending on what country you live in, "Liberal" is just a brand placed on the right or the left. Where I live these days, Liberal is the name of right party coalition. So basically I call everyone Liberals because it's accurate and I just refer to people as being Left or Right on that spectrum based on their support for free market economies.
Anyway, with this background in place, what you need to understand is that there is a schism on the "Left" between left leaning Liberals and what is often called the "New Left" (or more recently, progressives - but I think many people are misapplying that label to themselves due to marketing).
Within the ruling class/elite of the New Left, most of these guys are socialists. They just happen to align with the left leaning Liberals because they are more willing to listen to equality arguments based around market reforms. Most Left Libs don't want to go as far as these guys do obviously.
Just imagine it's similar to how most Right Libs wouldn't want to live under a religious theocracy, but they ally themselves with cultural conservatives/traditionalists because of economic reasons (so long as those economic reasons aren't introducing reforms based on cultural conservatism, ahem).
As you can see, it's a tricky balancing game on each side between various factions and self interests.
So, as to the fighting - It's easy. Left Libs are still fucking Liberals and they support Liberalism and New Left politics, if they are allowed to become dominate, are pretty much in opposition to this.
I know that was really long winded, but I hope it cleared up some stuff for you guys.