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a8d550 No.1811

I've argued before that "All Roads Lead to Atheism." (By this I mean that multiple disciplines have contradictions that tend to lead towards a person rejecting religion and becoming an Atheist.) I’d like to expand on that, and ask the question: Does Atheism also lead towards a single road?

I mean, wouldn’t it be nice the thoughts of Atheists tended to naturally converge upon a single path, because then it would be easier to cooperate? Well the answer so far appears to be no, and that Atheism leads to many branching roads. Atheism appears to be a resting point on a person’s personal journey toward a better understanding of the world.

Many philosophies and schools of thought have been founded on Atheism. Once a person believes that world has no protective guardian, and presupposes no sacred canon, he tends to be inclined towards giving serious thought about how to better improve our world. In that sense, a lot of good can come from reaching this level of understanding.

Today, many of the professors that teach philosophy at (non-Christian) Universities are Atheists. Even in Ancient Greece many of the Greek philosophers had little need for Gods and have quotations that mocked them, or that encouraged individuals to solve their problems without the Gods. I’m also inclined to believe Kant was actually an Atheist, (or a Deist). I’ve read that Ayn Rand became an Atheist In High School, and she later founded Objectivism. (I may insert more examples here later.)

Perhaps it’d be more accurate to say that philosophy today tend to be founded in response to nihilism. That’s because philosophers must consider the possibility that everything is pointless if they are to be intellectually honest. Moreover, there’s a lot of strong evidence that we are living in a world of chance and tragic accidents, rather than a clockwork universe. (See the Marcus Aurelius misquote.)

marcus aurelius pic(FYI: These are his views paraphrased by the internet, rather than a quote.)

Nihilism may be the foundation of modern philosophy, and more layers are just applied on top of that. Whenever a philosopher became a nihilist after realizing that his religion didn’t have the answers for certain problems, and then realized God wouldn’t come down from the sky and save us, he tended to want to take stewardship of the world. Hence, many people have tried to create their own moral frameworks that they could personally thrive under, and then they tried to persuade others their framework was worth following.

Once we tentatively accept the possibilities of nihilism, we don’t tend to stay there, because it’s not satisfactory to behave as though our actions are utterly pointless. Nihilism is therefore a phase, and we tend to make up our own goals. Even if perfectly objective morality doesn’t exist, we can lean toward relative morality (i.e. situational ethics), and most Atheists do that.

People can’t always agree on all of the values though, because we have different experiences and different expectations. We have short lives that prevent us from acquiring all of the experiences of our neighbors, which makes for partial truths. Hence we acquire independent views that appear as self-evident to us, and when discourse breaks down our last retorts to one another is, “If you were born in my shoes you would definitely understand.” Perhaps if we lived long enough our roads would converge again at another point “beyond Atheism.”

That said, the Golden Rule/Silver Rule is so universal it’s usually a foregone conclusion. (It doesn’t even need to be articulated, since it’s a biological adaptation and even 3 year-olds prefer justice, and this raises the question of how useful philosophy really is.) If we have natural controls to stop us from killing each other, perhaps philosophy wasn’t ever enough to stop any wars. Perhaps philosophical literature is often just a feel-good way of articulating what we are already inclined to believe, and reinforcing our own values.

Even so, philosophy might have its day someday. Because there’s a chance that relying on biological controls alone will not be enough if society becomes more complicated, and prone to acts of self-destruction. There may even be times when we need to bring order to the chaos, even if that means stepping on personal liberties through a philosophical framework.

d5969c No.1812

>>1811

Hm. Interesting subject. A few things though.

Firstly, you come across as though from an environment where religion is a big deal. You seem to imply that religious faith is the default position and atheism the consequence of realising that faith is just that - presupposed conviction of an unsatisfyingly verifyable set of beliefs that must, in order to count as 'true', be coflated with notions of truth and knowledge. But religion is not the default. As such, your overall assessment - that it sorta begins with religion, then the critical mind necessarily rejects it resulting in atheism and nihilism and needs to erect a new system of thoughts/beliefs for itself - is not universal.

>Does Atheism also lead towards a single road?

You seem to imply that there is a 'single road' in theism. What do you mean by that? It sounds as false a statement as it gets and I can't fathom what you might have meant.

>philosophers must consider the possibility that everything is pointless

That statement is nowhere near as radical as it sounds though. Everything can only really be pointless if you presuppose a point to begin with. Most philosophies are anthropocentric and rely on man-made systems of declaration and acquisition of meaning (including vast branches of theism, only they wouldn't call it that way). There is, strictly speaking, no pointlessness in such a view. There is, however, no ultimate, fundamental, essential, end all be all point to everything. But very few (modern) philosophies claim such a thing to exist or be worthwhile or even possible to pursue. I assume this is the notion of pointlessness you allude to?

>tentatively accept the possibilities of nihilism

While I get what you're saying, I don't think there is a way out of nihilism once you've fallen into it, unless you simply accept unconnotated actuality (fatalism or pragamtism, if you will) or absolute relativity on every level (kind of subjectivist constructivism, for lack of a better term). Other than those two somewhat escapist options there is no way to put nihilism aside, since every system of meaning or truth you will inevitably not fully embrace. Unless you somehow suddenly become convinced of the correctness of a different philosophy, in which case good for you.

>philosophy might have its day someday

So currently it doesn't have its day because it's based on subjective outlook inherent in atheism? Is that a correct understanding of your view?

And the day of philosophy comes to serve as rational guideline or supervisor to biological mechanisms? I feel that you may be simplifying what goes into a society a little bit. Plus, following your train of thought, how, i.e. on what basis and to what end, would philosophy bring order when there is no obvious 'single road'?

I hope my questions make sense to you, i.e. that I understood you well enough in order to be able to ask them meaningfully.


a8d550 No.1813

>>1812

>You seem to imply that religious faith is the default position

Well, religion still predominates across more countries. A child is always born without religion, and must have it impressed upon him. A critical mind eventually rejects any religion, (which is easier to do if you have a broad education). Therefore anyone who is sufficiently educated and who has a critical mind is highly likely to become an Atheist, which is why I said many roads lead to Atheism. The point of this piece was to explore whether upon reaching Atheism, there was a second point of convergence.

>You seem to imply that there is a 'single road' in theism.

No, you've inferred too many implications.

>I assume this is the notion of pointlessness you allude to?

Pretty much. When you discard notions of the divine origins of man, there's no longer a presupposition that you must fulfill some transcendent purpose. When faith in that "purpose" is shattered a man has roughly 3 options, (and 2 suck). 1) kill himself 2) live without goals 3) or live while inventing "goals" (or aspirations)

>So currently it doesn't have its day because it's based on subjective outlook inherent in atheism?

It doesn't have it's day because 1) people haven't agreed upon a useful comprehensive philosophy 2) many people still wouldn't behave rationally, not even in line with their own values.

>And the day of philosophy comes to serve as rational guideline or supervisor to biological mechanisms?

Yes. Someday we may need to overcome our biological limitations, or we might (violently) annihilate ourselves. We might even need to resort to genetic engineering to remove certain dangerous imperfections that are left over from biology. The alternative is to trust to nature, and human evolution to eventually sort itself out.

>on what basis and to what end, would philosophy bring order when there is no obvious 'single road'?

I don't have an answer for this yet. I'd like to be born in the distant future so I could better answer if a deep education that encompassed philosophy ever leads to a single final destination.


d5969c No.1814

>>1813

>anyone who is sufficiently educated and who has a critical mind is highly likely to become an Atheist

Some psychologists would disagree but the assertion is fair enough. I took the transition away from theism as a key point of your post, but I see it's more about the general atheistic position. Still think you aren't allowing for enough options or alternatives, like secular culture or social community. These things aren't theistic, yet can and do provide protection, as it were, from nihilism. Essentially all areas that aren't ruled over by religion work this way. It's not necessarily an anarchy of 'goals'.

>to explore whether upon reaching Atheism, there was a second point of convergence

You mean in the sense of a transition to a higher or at least different form of understading? What would you respond to that? Can that happen? Would it be universal? Sounds to me like the analytic's dream.

>you've inferred too many implications

Fair enough. I got confused by the 'also' in

>Does Atheism also lead towards a single road?

I assume you meant whether the way FROM atheism leads onto a single road, as occured on the way TO atheism. Correct?

>When faith in that "purpose" is shattered a man has roughly 3 options

See, here is where it's apparent how fixated you are on theism. What would you say are the options for those who never were theists? Are they the same, perhaps less intense or existential (because they never assumed a divine "purpose" to begin with)? Those lucky enough not to have been indoctrinated might establish value in things like cooperation or society. Sure these are 'invented goals', but they are collectively invented. In that respect, they strike me as comparable to theism without falling into the nihilistic implications of your three possibilities.

>people haven't agreed upon a useful comprehensive philosophy

If you expect philosophy to find a greater consensus than that of reasonable and sound argumentation then I'm not sure I share your position on the possibility and nature of philosophy, because I assume you mean to say that there is a more concrete philosophy anyone could actually subscribe to willingly (or when compelled).

>many people still wouldn't behave rationally, not even in line with their own values

I find this to be a very intriguing point. Firstly in terms of the connection between value and rationality, and secondly due to the barrier between the theoretical and the practical. I'm skeptical as to how much philosophy can do on this front.

>overcome our biological limitations

Okay, I completely missed that point before. I thought you were refering to reason (thus philosophy) being required to act as coordinator, not as modifyer. But yeah, considering how unfriendly existence is towards an individual as opposed to a genus, we don't and won't simply rely on nature. I'm not sure what philosophy contributes to this as opposed to science, though. Reflections on morality or theories of action and behaviour perhaps?

>a single final destination

The road metaphor threw me off at first, but I get it now. The end might/should be universal and singular, though there may well be a plurality of ways to get there. Again I'm curious whether or not you think that might actually turn out to be the case. Something like enlightenment maybe?


bb7f79 No.1815

Why, oh why, is it that pretty much nobody outside of a very few of higher academia ever bother to read the German Idealists?

If theism is conflated with the notion of a belief in a conscious single being purposefully active in the creation or sustaining of the world, then many people in the past who considered themselves theist fall into a very strange paradox of articulating a really atheistic view/system. People like Spinoza, some eastern non-dualists, many mystical philosophers/theologians, and process theologians end up arriving at conclusions which are by that notion of a personal god as atheistic as any hardcore atheist. Many ideas are ultimately shared by different names and relations in a system, but the same inner content of meaning. Something like Brahman, by very abstract conceptions, can end up being no different than quantum fluctuations from nowhere.

The distinction between atheists and theists are overblown by the distinction of particular conceptions of the moral dimension, yet in metaphysics the atheists and theists of philosophical rigor end up sharing many similar views. People like Heidegger saw metaphysics/ontology as inseparable from theology no matter how far from a notion of god one wanted to get, hence he just called it all onto-theology.


9fc3a5 No.1818

3 ways

nihilism, existentialism, absurdism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

look at the first section, overview, and the second section, relationship to existentialism and nihilism


fd21ad No.1823

>>1818

You forgot Darwinism.


9deefe No.1928

New atheism tend yo be very dogmatic just look at rationalwiki or the atheist youtubers who gained fame.


fe1012 No.1934

I would assume skepticism, leads to every road of philosophy.




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