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File: 1457609682689.jpg (93.05 KB, 500x413, 500:413, img.jpg)

3cc343 No.11210

I'm watching Zeitgeist right now, and I'm wondering if there are any good refutations/challenges to watch for an opposing angle on it

6b3114 No.11217

>>11210

>da joos!

>alienate the Christians

>alienate the socialist

>hey let's all live in hippy comunes!


051c3f No.11276

>>11210

I'm not going to get into the conspiracy theory stuff, but just focus on the core idea of the Venus Project, which was agreed to be the solution to all these problems in Addendum. It's very similar to the Technocracy Movement but more environmentalist.

1: Post-scarcity is nonsense. Literally, we cannot have a post-scarcity society, because resources are always finite.

If you then say "Oh well, we only mean really really low scarcity" then you've rendered your claim arbitrary; for a given value of "scarcity", we could claim that we already live in a post-scarcity society. What specific thing do you want? Nobody to starve to death? That's a specific goal that has nothing to do with going beyond scarcity.

2: The Venus Project is contradictory because it claims to be post-scarcity, but also desires a "resource based economy" that creates "sustainability".

So, on the one hand, they want an economy in which we are free of the limits of nature, but on the other one an economy that respects the limits of nature...

Which is it? Resource based is a meaningless buzzword used to justify total control of individual consumption and lifestyles.

All of the Zeitgeist movies go on and on about how the money changing financial powers will put RFID chips in people and create a totalitarian state, but then its solution is to create an alternate system which is necessarily totalitarian, because it requires worldwide tracking of consumption for the purposes of centralized management of "sustainability".

3: You can indeed solve the problems of poverty and hard work by automating the economy but doing so does not require a non-market system, or any whackjob environmentalist totalitarian scheme. Literally just robots doing everything and then a basic income attached to that economy would reduce absolute poverty to zero (which is being reduced year by year by year btw) while retaining the property rights that we have. The whole Venus Project idea is just throwing out the baby with the bathwater, to create a centrally planned enviro-socialist economy.

We can't do any of this now, because technology isn't good enough, but when we can, I don't think we want to follow the thinking of Peter Joseph and Jaque Fresco.


6aa2b6 No.11284

>>11210

Stephan Molyneux debated/refuted it

you might want to look at some of his vids on it


444d5a No.11314

File: 1457641064676.jpg (579.28 KB, 1035x1359, 115:151, zeitgeist.jpg)

>>11210

With some basic insight into history and economics, there is no angle that doesn't oppose that movie.


39f19e No.11327

Zeitgeist is what happens when liberals read conspiracy theories and flirt with socialist ideals. None of their proposals are achievable in any reasonable timeframe and many of our economic questions would reamin unsolved.

t. socialist


6fa123 No.11454

File: 1457685420591.pdf (4.93 MB, Zeitgeist, The Movie- Comp….pdf)

>>11276

I disagree with pretty much everything you say.

First you are merely arguing semantics, worrying about the word "post-scarcity", forgetting about the real goal of the RBE: To have ride humanity of the scarcity-based causes of bad human behaviours, such as learning to be greedy because you had McDonald's for family diners while your neighbour had homemade organics. Under an RBE the robots would offer both families whatever organic foods.

You straw-man the Venus Project out of ignorance. It doesn't claim freedom from nature, it claims aligning with the limits and that these limits are quite huge if managed intelligently and efficiently, such that everyone can lives better than the richest alive now (in terms of connectivity, health, free time etc. - but not in terms of having dominate power over lots of people)

And yes, totalitarianism is a tool, use it to violently dominate from secret bases, or have free and open-source databases of The Commons (ie the whole Earth).

A human body is the model of management that the RBE is emulating. Local balance by automatic systems (cells managing their homoeostases), overridden by active de/centralised goals of the whole civilisation (brain saying raise arm).

Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco are both very smart people, worth listening to and UNDERSTANDING before moving on.

>>11210

Zeitgeist: The Movie is merely an art piece whose message is "Wake Up America!". It is forgettable and useless when compared to the later films. It has a source book - attached.

Zeitgeist Addendum is great and introduces brilliant ideas - recommended.

Zeitgeist Moving Forward is like Addendum but more focused on the logical train of thought free from personality, and geared towards a broader public audience - also greatly recommended.


6fa123 No.11455

>>11454

>to have ride

*to rid


8d92c1 No.11496

>>11276

The man Fresco said things correctly. The man Joseph is a totalitarian commie ideologue using the evil capitalist tools to further his authoritarian agenda.


7e383c No.11515

its almost 100% wrong except where it presents common knowledge in theology as some kind of hidden and mysterious truth

this destroys nearly every single point, point by point.

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/


9c2c0e No.11701

>>11210

The guy who made this is an egnineer. One fault Engineers have is that they are nowadays trained to look up the solution of a problem and then apply it. For example if you ask them to figure out the weight of a red ball, they would search it for a serial number and then pull out the big tome of big red balls. Of course the Venus project is a too simplistic of an answer for dozens of very complex problems.

Next argument is time. The movies were uploaded around 2010(?). What has become of the Venus project in the mean time? Nothing. It was masturbation on a highlevel just like sea steading, i.e. it is purely Academic crap.




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