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File: 1454558442267.jpeg (25.94 KB, 350x350, 1:1, 111250630_Non20Watermarke….jpeg)

b9fc1e No.7081

Anarcho-capitatlism

So what are your thoughts on anarcho-capitalism?

Pro or against?

Is it still relevant or is it too unfeasible to be taken seriously in this current-day society?

General ancap discussion

e78ab3 No.7088

It was never relevant.


fcc2f5 No.7089

>>7081

>Is it still relevant

What do you mean? Relevant to what? Do you mean to ask if it's an appropriate perspective for considering social organization? If so, then I put it to you that it is.

Consider the fact that Anarcho-Capitalism is rather like a political and economic sort of Atheism. It is a negative proposition, consisting of the rejection of political and economic coercion. It does not in itself propose any particular organizational unit or system, and embraces any organizational unit or system so long as participation is not compulsory. It consists of the recognition that none can know the optimal configuration of social institutions or the optimal means for achieving human well-being, and as such, that imposing them on others is not justified.

Since it is a negative proposition, arguments against Anarcho-Capitalism would consist of arguments for one particular system or another, which must grapple with the rational inconsistencies of imposed "order".

>is it too unfeasible to be taken seriously in this current-day society?

For this question, I present the following article with the simple comment; "look around":

http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/Obvious.pdf


debca0 No.7197

>>7081

Unrealistic, immoral, irresponsible, ridiculous, overall absolutely retarded.


6ad764 No.7198

anarcho-anything is and has always been a child fantasy


cb0ceb No.7251

File: 1455025257377.jpg (23.48 KB, 299x450, 299:450, pjp.jpg)

Anarchism and capitalism are incompatible. They're good people, but they're either autistic about economics or rich.

>>7198

pic related, I'm sure he got carded constantly


fcc2f5 No.7330

>>7197

>>7198

>>7251

What precisely do you think you're arguing against? What, in your mind, does "anarchism" mean? What, in your mind, does "capitalism" mean? Can you support these definitions? Can you establish what makes them incompatible or unrealistic?

Unfounded assertions get us nowhere.


cb0ceb No.7334

>>7330

Anarchism is devoid of hierarchy. Capitalism relies on hierarchy and private property. Trade is not capitalism, neither is money, mutualism or some form of market socialism may be what you're looking for instead of the clusterfuck that is anarcho capitalism.


aa357f No.7336

File: 1455143401630.jpg (52.97 KB, 500x300, 5:3, zweneed distributism.jpg)

Both Anarcho-capitalism and Anarcho-communism are shit.

Ancom: Shit because the abolition of private property takes away all possibility of independence, and the state is merely replaced with a bottom up communist mob justice.

Ancap: Shit because the NAP justifies non-action and waiting for the magical moment when everything will be privatized. It's also shit because it ignores that big corporations deserve just as much blame as government, largely because they are merged with it in fundamental ways. Ancaps just focus autistically on whether something is called "private" or not, and not on how organizations actually collaborate with total control of the populace. The donor lists for political campaigns should be treat as a list of traitors to the people. They also lack a support for the violent revolution that WILL be necessary to end big government, and the culture of revolt that will have to follow to keep big government gone.

Both of them: Neither ideology accepts that any collection of people enforcing law is a state, so a non-state society is impossible. Only a small state is possible and only through constant action by an extremely tough and battle hardened people. Anarchy is not going to be a tough and comfy utopia, but a resistance by militia groups to political and economic over-centralization. Law should instead be decentralized and municipally based.

What we need is not anarchism and not autistic capitalism or autistic socialism, but a movement based off of fluid power and property for every man, and that movement is distributism.

We need libertarian distributism. Distributarianism.


fcc2f5 No.7342

File: 1455154762081.jpg (136.95 KB, 700x495, 140:99, the-people.jpg)

>>7330

>Anarchism is devoid of hierarchy. Capitalism relies on hierarchy and private property.

Neither of these are definitions. You haven't explained what these things mean. We can't really have a discussion about them until their meanings are determined.

You continue to assert what these things involve or depend on, or assert that something is a "clusterfuck", but we can't really determine if what you're saying is true until you nail down what you're talking about.

>>7336

>Shit because the NAP

First off, the NAP isn't like scripture. I know a lot of AnCaps treat it like it is, but it's just a particular perspective. See >>7089 for more on what AnCap is and isn't.

>justifies non-action and waiting for the magical moment when everything will be privatized

So your gripe is that a doctrine simultaneously embraced by proponents of the philosophy, in your estimation, permits inaction? You feel that those you disagree with are morally obligated to bring their aspirations to fruition?

>it ignores that big corporations deserve just as much blame as government, largely because they are merged with it in fundamental ways.

Actually, AnCaps are pretty much on the front lines of complaining about this. Those big corporations only have that power because they merged with government, so if there's no government, they have no way of using non-existent government power to their advantage.

>Ancaps just focus autistically on whether something is called "private" or not, and not on how organizations actually collaborate with total control of the populace.

That simply is not true. AnCaps are quick to point out how a great many purportedly "private" organizations benefit from tax funding and preferential legal power. This is the primary basis for pointing out that the current economic arrangement does not fit the definition of "capitalism".

>The donor lists for political campaigns

Politics = government = !anarchy = !ancap.

>They also lack a support for the violent revolution that WILL be necessary to end big government

Historically, that's a bad idea. Civil disobedience is a much more effective and less destructive method for achieving large-scale social change. You might be interested to learn about "agorism", a popular strategic outlook among AnCaps.

http://www.aeinstein.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Civilian-Based-Defense-English.pdf

That said; the capacity for violent resistance is likely to be a prudent move for any free individuals or associations thereof.

>Neither ideology accepts that any collection of people enforcing law is a state

That's because (for most commonly-accepted definitions of "enforce" and "state", as well as the historically accurate definition of "law") it is not. The Amish, who "enforce" their social norms through nothing more than ostracism, cannot be accurately considered a state. A mall cop is not an agent of the state. Neither of these have a territorial monopoly on the legitimized use of aggressive force. They are not granted social permission to seek out people in their own homes and impose rules upon them with threats of violence. The associations with these groups are fully voluntary and non-monopolistic.

>Anarchy is not going to be a tough and comfy utopia

This position is not representative of any stripe of anarchist. Even AnComs aren't that deranged.

>Law should instead be decentralized and municipally based.

Have you considered the possibility of not tying law to an arbitrarily-defined geographical region? Have you considered the possibility that protection from predatory behavior is a service like any other, and thus can be provided competitively in a market? Maybe all the residents of one strange shape on a map don't all need to subscribe to the same protectors?

History is replete with diverse models of law. Some quite familiar, others almost entirely alien. You may find many of them interesting.

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Course_Pages/legal_systems_very_different_12/LegalSystemsDraft.html

Also

>austistically

>autistic

>autistic

Your rhetoric does you no favors.


fcc2f5 No.7345

>>7344

Did not intend to double-post, and I don't seem to be able to delete on this board.


13cd7e No.8139

File: 1456536550935.png (120.28 KB, 274x305, 274:305, hoppe-fsi.png)

Hoppean anarcho-capitalism is the future. Tell me one thing statist government does and an ancap society can't. Pro-tip: you can't.


13cd7e No.8142

>>7336

>Neither ideology accepts that any collection of people enforcing law is a state

A state is a group or institution with a monopoly on the use of force in a given territory. Just because a group happens to be enforcing the law, it doesn't mean they claim or are granted a monopoly on law enforcement.

A common objection is that, in an ancap order, you can own a mini-kingdom where you set your own rules. But that's not a monopoly on the enforcement of the law, because the ancap law is precisely what allows you to have this mini-kingdom, and it's not enforced by any central authority. In this aspect, it's very similar to international law as currently understood. It takes the concept of national sovereignity to the personal level.


19bb4a No.8303

>voluntaryism

Just cuck my shit up fam.


13cd7e No.8396

>>8303

Not all ancaps are cucked. I'm not sure about voluntaryists, I don't use that label.


a81deb No.8594

>>8139

Morality.


13cd7e No.8633

>>8594

What do you mean? Please elaborate.


6e8e2a No.8659

Great for rich people. Hell for poor people.

In the trash it belongs.


13cd7e No.8671

>>8659

I could prove you wrong but I don't need or want poor people in my political movement, so why bother.


9a9759 No.8737

File: 1456940218067.png (21.58 KB, 667x341, 667:341, ancap.png)

Anarcho-Capitalism is a utopian ideal that lacks quite a few things necessary for it to operate in reality.

For example:

1. Bare minimum for survival is an organized military that is competitive with other organized militaries. Without this, anyone can slaughter or enslave your people. Any AnCap geographical region would be easily crushed and conquered by neighbors.

2. In order to make a stable society which isn't going to self-destruct, at bare minimum there needs to be a system of informing everyone in the region about who is an untrustworthy individual. Without this system, a region under AnCap can be preyed upon by people within it. A stranger might take advantage of people in one location, then move on and take advantage of people in another location, with no end. So there needs to be a press even if no one is willing to pay for one.

3. Because some predatory behavior (murder etc) can leave no witnesses to spread the word, or witnesses can be intimidated into silence, there needs to be a system of laws, courts and investigative agencies that can asses the aftermath and discover a bad guy without witnesses.

There are more, but that's some of the basics.

Most AnCaps are insufferable people because they try to apply post-anarcho-capitalist logic to the modern world, which isn't anarcho OR capitalist.


13cd7e No.8749

>>8737

(1) yes, we need private armies

(2) Come on, that's a non-issue. You are shitposting on the internet and you are not getting paid for it (or are you?). Besides, there IS a market for news. Are you from a commie country? We don't need Pravda, thank you.

(3) There's ample discussion in ancap cicrcles about private law and private court systems.

> Most AnCaps are insufferable people because they try to apply post-anarcho-capitalist logic to the modern world, which isn't anarcho OR capitalist.

This is kinda true.

t. Hoppean ancap.


9a9759 No.8794

File: 1456953378969-0.jpg (170.47 KB, 800x522, 400:261, gypsies3.jpg)

File: 1456953378971-1.jpg (58.05 KB, 500x375, 4:3, gypsy king.jpg)

File: 1456953378971-2.gif (1.73 MB, 320x180, 16:9, gypsies.gif)

>>8749

>(1) yes, we need private armies

How will you fund them? Some kind of donation system? What if there aren't enough donations to protect from an enemy? Will you levy more donations on one person than the others? Will that person control the army?

Remember also that money has to go into a military-industrial complex if you're going to keep up with R&D of governments.

>(2) Come on, that's a non-issue.

Being able to take advantage of people is not a non-issue. Say a guy makes a business deal promising to pay $5,000 for some gold. He writes a promisory note, seals it with a fingerprint, everything. Goes to the next city, does the same thing. Keeps ripping people off.

Or a business magnate does an oil spill in one city, ruining it. In the next city he negotiates the use of some land, because the people in that city don't know he's a retard.

All because a newspaper doesn't circulate in both cities or there aren't newspapers at all, or some other issue. This is a major problem.

>(3) There's ample discussion in ancap cicrcles about private law and private court systems.

I know all about these discussions, and they're very flawed. If an arbitration system is private, such as where both parties pay an arbiter to decide, then its beholden to interests and under the table bribery.

A common response to that argument is "but if they cheat then no one will trust them in that business anymore."

For that to happen you again need at least a universal press, and even then the guilty party would always try to find a crooked arbitrator.

And what of a police force? Who will pay them? How to make sure they aren't used as thugs for a group of rich folk?

By the way this kind of weird response is another reason why no one like AnCaps.

>You are shitposting on the internet and you are not getting paid for it (or are you?).

>Are you from a commie country? We don't need Pravda, thank you.

If you truly wish to see what an ancap system looks like, look to nomads like Gypsies. They keep on the move so people can't destroy/enslave them, they're under the auspices of no government, and their main social link is trade/money.

Not sure why anyone would want to live like that.


13cd7e No.8827

>>8794

> If you truly wish to see what an ancap system looks like, look to nomads like Gypsies.

And that's the problem, you have the wrong picture of what ancap is about. To begin with, nomads don't own any land. A much more realistic picture is a federation of mini-kingdoms, like Monaco, Liechtenstein or Vatican CIty.

> How will you fund them? Some kind of donation system? What if there aren't enough donations to protect from an enemy? Will you levy more donations on one person than the others? Will that person control the army?

I think the usual answer involves insurance companies and PDAs, but I prefer to describe it as a military alliance where a few kingdoms provide the heavyweight military muscle and others pay. Division of labor. Only those who pay are protected. Look at NATO, for instance. The USA could beat the crap out of any other memeber, and yet you guys don't even charge us for the service :^)

> Remember also that money has to go into a military-industrial complex if you're going to keep up with R&D of governments.

Yes, I agree we'll need all the bells and whistles. I've heard some ancaps deny the need, but I think they are wrong.

> Being able to take advantage of people is not a non-issue.

I said it's a non-issue because people LOVE to gossip. Hence my comment about you shitposting for free. It wasn't an attack, just a bit of humor. If something happens, the ancap equivalent of /politics/ would be all like "IT'S HAPPENING!!!1"

> All because a newspaper doesn't circulate in both cities or there aren't newspapers at all, or some other issue.

And this is why I mentioned Pravda (a state-run newspaper). Virtually all newspapers in Western countries are privately owned and for-profit. They may be biased, but they sure aren't quiet.

> If an arbitration system is private, such as where both parties pay an arbiter to decide, then its beholden to interests and under the table bribery.

Corruption is far more of a problem in the current system, with no competition, where judges cover each other's asses, judges let the president get his way against the constitution, the president appoints judges.. so-called separation of powers is a joke, and it would still be a joke if it were real, because it gains you nothing.

IOW, if it kinda works in the current system, it will work like charm in an ancap society.

Personally, I don't believe arbitration will be such a popular service. I think in most cases each person in the dispute will call his own legal service, then the lawyers will have a meeting, a debate and finally an out-of-court agreement. In other words, diplomacy.

> And what of a police force? Who will pay them?

That's easier than the military. Your insurance company will tell you which PSA you should hire. Ancaps often say the insurance companies themselves will run the PSA business. I disagree. Insurance companies are civilians. The PSAs will be mostly former cops. They will remain separate in most cases.

> How to make sure they aren't used as thugs for a group of rich folk?

The short answer is, much like nations keep tabs on each other. Sometimes there's an arms race or even a preemptive strike, but the usual way is diplomacy and calm vigilance.

Also, realistically, I wouldn't worry that much. Imagine a rich guy tells his PSA (the most powerful PSA in the federation) to blatantly break the ancap law and get into a war with all the other PSAs in exchange for, say 10% of his wealth. The manager of this PSA tells the other PSAs about this proposal. The other PSAs will answer "thank you very much for the information. We've decided to confiscate your customer's wealth as punishment for treason and sedition. You can keep 50% of the booty in recognition for your great service in fighting crime. Help yourselves".

> By the way this kind of weird response is another reason why no one like AnCaps.

I didn't mean to offend. As I explained above, each of those comments was a point made with a bit of humor.


3f8def No.8896

"Anarcho-capitalism" is plutocracy.

It's, literally, an oxymoron.

Inb4 Marxist Strawman


558802 No.8898

>>7330

Anarchy means no hierarchy. If there are masters and slaves, kings and serfs, employers and employees, rulers and the ruled, it's NOT anarchy.


3a3017 No.8899

>>7081

Childish, hopelessly naive nonsense. Large firms would immediately form an authoritarian state and use it to their own ends.


a06714 No.8918

>>7081

>implying this trash ideology wouldn't just result into the rich and powerful exploiting everyone else

Why bother? You already have your anarcho capitalism in the US. Now those made rich by capitalism and free market economics have successfully engaged in a hostile takeover of the US government, which is now for all intents and purposes an extension of corporate will.

Also the whole 'voluntarism' joke. I don't even know where to begin with that one.


a81deb No.8966

>>8633

A state is needed to set a concrete and stable set of laws enforcing morals.

>muh Hoppean communes can do that!

Not in the unified and binding way that a state does. What if 40% of the town want a drug banned because it's maiming/killing people but 60% of the town are druggies? More people die and the town sinks into depression and decline. Also, in ancap-land, the person with the most money (and therefore the biggest private police) gets to set the morality. And that morality will almost always support that person getting richer at the poor's expense. Essentially a new oligarchy forms.

>morality shouldn't be decided centrally! muh freedumbz!

People are idiots. Time and time again, humans will lead themselves, or the others around them, to death or sorrow if allowed to. They'll smoke something they know will make them dependent and kill them. They'll have sex with as many men as possible and end up a used, melancholic hag with mental problems. They'll hold up signs welcoming in the same refugees who will sexually assault them a few months later.

Like it or not, an ancap society would be utter shit. Drugs especially would run society into the ground. The freedom to be dependent on a substance which kills or dulls you. Yeah, what great freedom that is.

>but people will just do immoral things anyway!

From the dawn of time, people have murdered each other. There are ancient skulls with signs of blunt trauma caused by another human - murder is ancient and has never stopped occurring. Does that mean we should not prosecute people for murder? Because people will do it anyway, right?

The point is: punishment is a deterrent and a pretty good one. People always get through, but they are rightfully punished for trying to bring obvious ills to our society.


9a9759 No.8967

File: 1457025451999.gif (998.72 KB, 320x241, 320:241, facepalm worf.gif)

>>8827

>Monaco, Liechtenstein or Vatican CIty.

All of those have governments, two of them are authoritarian.

>where a few kingdoms

But those are kingdoms. With kings.

I don't think you have the right picture about ANARCHY itself.


9a9759 No.8968

>>8896

Why would anyone say marxist strawman?

"Anarcho-communism" is also an oxymoron, as it is a bureaucracy.

Bureaucracies often leave less freedom to the average person than oligarchies.


9a9759 No.8973

File: 1457026179427-0.jpg (166.93 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, fascism result1.jpg)

File: 1457026179430-1.jpg (117.06 KB, 1200x495, 80:33, fascism result2.jpg)

File: 1457026179431-2.png (2 MB, 1920x1040, 24:13, fascism result3.png)

File: 1457026179432-3.jpg (271.25 KB, 1435x597, 1435:597, fascism result4.jpg)

>>8966

I think the idea of anarchism is to let those same useless people kill themselves off. Without welfare or the protection of those who are actually intelligent, the stupid will disappear through natural selection.

Are you familiar with Norse courts? For a person to win such a trial they had to carry heated bars of steel for a farther distance than their accuser. Or meet each other in duels to the death.

This system wasn't designed to get justice or truth, but to make sure that STRONG AND CUNNING INDIVIDUALS prosper in the society, regardless of how guilty they might be.

Over time the idea is that the strongest and the most cunning of the people would be most numerous, and have the most power in such a society.

NOW CONSIDER WHAT THE SYSTEM OF PROTECTING PEOPLE FROM THEMSELVES WOULD RESULT IN

If you still can't figure it out, look at pics.


13cd7e No.8982

>>8966

> A state is needed to set a concrete and stable set of laws enforcing morals.

That would be the role of private laws in ancap gated communities, mini-kingdoms, etc.

> What if 40% of the town want a drug banned because it's maiming/killing people but 60% of the town are druggies?

The Hoppean answer is either secession or exile (with reasonable compensation according to predefined membership rules).

All your points are reasonable, but the Hoppean solution is always "build wall", and I think it works pretty good between nations. For similar reasons, I suspect that the main disputes would be about land, pollution and WMDs rather than about social rules. I think that's a huge improvement in the way to universal peaceful cooperation.


13cd7e No.8984

>>8967

> All of those have governments, two of them are authoritarian.

> But those are kingdoms. With kings.

In an ancap society you can call yourself "king" on your land. After all, you are sovereign. People who come to live in your land have to accept your rules beforehand. In practice, it works much like a small kingdom, and those work pretty good.

> I don't think you have the right picture about ANARCHY itself.

Insurance companies and PDAs are just one of many ways ancap societies can be organized. I prefer the vision of mini-kingdoms, also very much in line with Hoppean anarcho-capitalism. Have you read "Democracy:The God that Failed"?


1fc7ff No.8993

>>8671

Who's gonna do the dirty jobs for you, smart guy?


13cd7e No.8998

>>8896

Anarchy means "no rulers", just like monarchy means "one ruler". Since there are no rulers (makers of rules), the rules are usually hardwired into the anarchist doctrine, and that's why there are so many anarchist schools. Anarcho-capitalism is anarchy (no rulers) and the rules are those of free-market capitalism.

I know, in practice, leftie anarchists insist on this vague notion of abolishing "hierarchy", which IMO is a dangerous, anti-social form of lunacy. In that sense, you are right, ancaps are not "Anarchists".

Plutocracy would be "one dollar, one vote". Still much better than democracy.


13cd7e No.9002

>>8993

heh, I was mostly jerkposting.

Also I don't mean in the future ancap society, I mean in the movement. Poor people hate us, they are brainwashed by the left, they don't understand the arguments and they dont care. I genuinely believe ancap would be good for them, and it would be great to convince them, but I dont see how.


9a9759 No.9203

File: 1457050841103.png (84.35 KB, 1246x938, 89:67, anarchy.png)

>>8984

>In an ancap society you can call yourself "king" on your land. After all, you are sovereign. People who come to live in your land have to accept your rules beforehand. In practice, it works much like a small kingdom, and those work pretty good.

So you're admitting that ancap basically leads to tyranny.


13cd7e No.9218

>>9203

No, because tyranny is when someone makes rules (and tyrannical rules at that) and those rules are imposed on people who did NOT agree to them. There's a huge difference.


36f21a No.9223

File: 1457051994056.jpg (180.41 KB, 999x1395, 111:155, wittgenstein.jpg)

>>8984

>In an ancap society you can call yourself "king" on your land

>your land

How do you determine which land belongs to whom?

>>9218

>tyranny is an absolute principle that exists solely in relation to my ideology

mfw


13cd7e No.9260

>>9223

> How do you determine which land belongs to whom?

The short answer is by general consensus. No one claims to be the owner of the truth, people debate and negotiate.We start from the fact that each person owns his own body (no slavery) and the products of his labor.

Here comes the tricky part, because, while your labor is yours, the raw materials are originally unowned natural resources, and someone may object if you gobble up too much of the land and leave too little for the rest.

In practice it can sometimes be tricky, but most ancaps would prefer a reasonable (though not perfect) agreement on starting conditions as soon as possible, and then move on with trade as the main mechanism. The main source of wealth, in our view, is the peaceful division of labor, and the best way to achieve that is with strict property rights.

I think this is, to some extent, an open issue, but not really a substantial flaw. IOW, if we are a community of ancaps, we'll sort it out.

>tyranny is an absolute principle that exists solely in relation to my ideology

I didn't mean that. I'm using the colloquial sense, in which not even an absolute monach is always a tyrant.

Tyranny is not defined in ancap theory AFAIK. What exactly is your definition of tyranny?

Also, keep in mind that, precisely because you must agree to the rules in advance, those rules are unlikely to be anything like "tyrannical".


36f21a No.9271

>>9260

>The short answer is by general consensus

That's not an awnser at all, this is the fundamental tenet of anarcho-capitalism and you can't even provide a way to solve it.

The only possible solution is communal property and personal property.

>I think this is, to some extent, an open issue, but not really a substantial flaw. IOW, if we are a community of ancaps, we'll sort it out.

A very big if. This if also requires everyone, or nearly everyone, being an ancap who follows his ideology completely.

>What exactly is your definition of tyranny?

It's not an exact term. If I would have to give a definition, I would define with real world examples, such as north korea.


1a74a4 No.9359

File: 1457089196636.png (114.62 KB, 224x309, 224:309, 1454709245447.png)

>"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""anarcho""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" capitalism


13cd7e No.9371

> That's not an awnser at all, this is the fundamental tenet of anarcho-capitalism and you can't even provide a way to solve it.

Anarchy means that no-one has a better claim than any other person to decide the rules of coexistence. Rules should stand on their own merits, not on the alleged legitimacy of the rule-making class. Anarcho-capitalism proposes free-market capitalism as the rule. In my opinion, the best example of ancap rules working in practice is international law as currently understood. Western nations have learned to coexist peacefully by respecting each other's sovereignity.

> The only possible solution is communal property and personal property.

Communal property is the worst possible (non-)solution. Communal management is always a mess. Almost any form of parcelling works better than that.

> A very big if. This if also requires everyone, or nearly everyone, being an ancap who follows his ideology completely.

We obviously need a critical mass of support. That's true of every political system. Good luck being a monarchist in revolutionary France.

If anything, anarcho-capitalism is a particularly resilient political system, because most conflicts over coexistence rules are promptly solved through freedom of association. You can, in principle, have liberal-democratic, ancom, Nazi and Islamist communities living side-by-side, much live vastly different countries coexist on Earth. The only condition is that land must be acquired according to free-market rules, and they must leave each other alone.

> It's not an exact term. If I would have to give a definition, I would define with real world examples, such as north korea.

OK, then I say tyranny is highly unlikely in an ancap society. Who would agree to live under that kind of rules? Kim Jong Un would live alone.


13cd7e No.9372

>>9371

meant to:

>>9271


9a9759 No.9859

>>9218

>>9260

>How do you determine which land belongs to whom?

>The short answer is by general consensus.

Protip: The general consensus is that a kingdom belongs to a king. People born on that land don't get to choose their king or agree to his rules.


097990 No.9992

>>7081

Bottom-line, ancaps or ancoms, it is imperative that technology reach the point where manual labor and the production of basic needs for life are so easily manufacturable that their prices (in ancap) are extremely cheap or can avoid being rationed (ancom). Anarchic systems supported by new technology can allow society to focus on the evolution of intellectual fields. Robots can gentrify the unskilled from society, naturally.


8262ba No.10010

>>9992

None of what you said even applies to capitalism, the system can't work without wage-labor. UBI is a possibility though if you want to enslave humanity for all eternity.


13cd7e No.10044

>>9859

All of politics starts with some form of general consensus.

Monarchy: the general consensus is that there there should someone (the king) with the privilege of making the rules and appointing his successor.

Democracy: the general consensus is that the majority should make the rules (direct democracy) or appoint someone to make the rules, or a combination of both.

Anarchy (including anarcho-capitalism): the general consensus is about the rules themselves, not about who should make them.

It's true that people who are born into a society are not given a choice, but that's the human condition, not a failure of some system or other. They don't get to choose their parents either, or the kind of world, or the time and age where they were born.

Ancaps believe people have a right to emigrate if they don't like their place of birth, but that doesn't mean they have a right to immigrate into places where they are not welcome.

I'd say it's a matter of debate whether children are entitled to a fraction of their parents' estate (because their parents did have a choice), but they have no claim on third parties' land or money, because only the parents made the choice to have a child.


13cd7e No.10045

>>10010

When ancaps say "free-market capitalism" we mean private property and the freedom to trade. Neither Wage-labor nor labor in general are essential features. For instances, in an ancap society where everyone owns general-purpose robots, no one works. People live from their assets.


5d59ce No.10322

>>8139

1. roads


7fa94e No.10324

File: 1457340175976.png (153.65 KB, 549x525, 183:175, 1411302632371-2.png)


13cd7e No.10452

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>10322

Hard mode: answer with a youtube video. Less than 15 minutes long. With cute pictures. Made by a nigger.

Challenge accepted :^)


ecfdd3 No.10512

>>10045

I'm actually not yet sure if we're going to see human labor abolished in the coming decades. People were saying the same thing about machines a century and a half ago. But let's assume we will here anyway.

>freedom to trade

Will exist under communism as well. You're confusing capitalism with free exchange. Every economy needs planning to work, capitalism just means the planners are guided by prices and competitive forces.

>For instances, in an ancap society where everyone owns general-purpose robots, no one works. People live from their assets.

What does this actually mean in practice? Without a wage to live on you would have to provide everyone with a massive personal estate for their needs.


ecfdd3 No.10513

>>10452

I have no doubt roads will be built in an ancap society. The problem is that their owners will conspire with each other to only build them when it's in their interests

One again, I say this as if an ancap society is impossible. In reality it would result in an authoritarian state.


13cd7e No.11098

File: 1457572645195.jpg (45.24 KB, 780x636, 65:53, n7HKJoV.jpg)

>>10512

> Will exist under communism as well. You're confusing capitalism with free exchange.

What's the point of exchanging goods with someone if they can come back later and steal what they gave me? What does "freedom to trade" even mean, without a clear demarcation of who owns what?

> You're confusing capitalism with free exchange.

I'm defining capitalism as private property and free exchange. I say "free-market capitalism" to avoid confusion. A typical definition of "capitalism" is "private ownership of the means of production". If it still triggers you, sorry, but I won't use your favored commie definition either.

> Every economy needs planning to work, capitalism just means the planners are guided by prices and competitive forces.

Plannig the allocation of resources for anyone other than yourself is completely arbitrary without prices People will always disagree and you will end up imposing your preferences on others. How do you decide if people need more icecreams or more bikes? How can you tell if they are working hard with low-productivity tools or they are just lazy?

Besides, under "free exchange" (which, again, is an empty concept without private property), price-based economic planning is the immediate, unavoidable effect. Yes, you can ban the market, but then how can you speak of "free exchange"?

> What does this actually mean in practice? Without a wage to live on you would have to provide everyone with a massive personal estate for their needs.

Massive by today's standards, average by then, when consumer goods practically (or, in a sense, literally) make themselves.

Look at it this way. Let's say you have, initially, a society where everyone works and everyone can afford housing, food, clothing, etc. This means there are enough natural resources to sustain this population, right? Now introduce general-purpose robots and leave the natural resources unchanged. What happens? People can still afford housing, food, etc, but they no longer need to work. But there's more, because some labor goes into finding more natural resources. So, people's living standards keep going up, they are able to eat more, have better clothing and so on.

One limiting factor often mentioned is real estate, but then you can have, for instance, massive floating cities. You don't see many of those nowadays because building them is very labor-intensive, and this labor can be put to better use. Not so with robots. So, people can have bigger houses and gardens too.

That's the underlying physical basis. In practice, I think the process will be perceived as prosperity and falling prices (a bit like the so-called "guilded age") rather than some kind of paradigm change. IOW, everyone will gradually become a wealthy NEET.

I'm not saying this scenario will happen anytime soon. I'm just saying the problem (widespread technological unemployment) and the solution (widespread jobless income) go together.

> I have no doubt roads will be built in an ancap society. The problem is that their owners will conspire with each other to only build them when it's in their interests

Provided that the right of passage is secured (as it should be) between one piece of private land and the next, there's no reason to think road maintenance will be unreasonably expensive. The only problem would be that you can't keep "free riders" out of communal roads, but there are several incentives for business owners to build and maintain the roads anyway, as described in the video. The exact model of development is hard to predict (that's what innovation is about), but several ones would be viable.

The issue of roads is important and we ancaps don't take it lightly, jokes apart. Here's some more on privatization (including streets and roads) by Hoppe:

https://mises.org/library/rationale-total-privatization


ff60bd No.11104

Capitalism for 12 year olds


64d312 No.11109

>>11104

I think jr high is more age appropriate since that is when kids start getting edgy


f436ce No.11181

How would anarcho-capitalism deal with monopolies?

Capitalism works best when there is competition, however a big downfall of pure, no rules, capitalism is that for bigger groups, the best strategy is just to monopolize. This can be done in many ways, including buying up competition. Very quickly this would lead to massive problems for anybody that is not at the head of said monopoly.

So, how does anarcho-capitalism deal with that? I don't even care about other issues, but capitalism without rules against monopolies are a big companies' wet dreams. Imagine never, ever, ever having anything but a comcast or AT&T, as your company for pretty much any goods.


84a005 No.11199

>>11181

A French economist actually did a decent job explaining this one to me, and he was only a small government conservative.

Simply put, a monopoly is not an inherently bad thing.

It was monopolies that drove the price of oil for the average American from some ludicrous amount at the time to less than 20 cents per barrel.

1) A monopoly must still compete if they are not a government sponsored monopoly. If they don't improve their product constantly, competitors move in with cheap knockoffs that perform essentially the same tasks, or come up with better things than them. Carnegie didn't remain the steel master by sitting on his ass and counting his shekels. He made steel cheap and easily accessible to the average American using an economy of scale, benefiting everyone significantly (and he was altruistic in the end to boot).

2) Price manipulation doesn't work in reality unless you have government force to back you up. While monopolies operate on economies of scale, they are still dependent on the success of the individual businesses. When they lower prices below a certain threshold, they lose profit. A lot of businesses, due to their small nature, can afford to close down during this time. When the monopoly goes to raise prices through the roof, small businesses tend to spring up and steal their customers, causing the monopoly to lose money a second time. This happens a few times (woth consumers switching to small businesses more and more) until eventually, the monopoly decides that the region is incapable of bringing a profit in. Simply put, monopolies can only offer cheaper prices if they can maintain cheaper prices- if they maintain cheaper prices, then they need to maintain at least a similar number of staff as the small business if not more so it's not like people are losing jobs- in fact the business owner might make more per hour being a supervisor, much in the same way a personal restaurant owner might be better off cooking for a chain. The cheaper prices ensure that people also have more buying power.


84a005 No.11200

>>11199

As for overseas monopolies, see my post on...

>>>/liberty/18932


13cd7e No.11209

>>11181

Austrian economists have a variety of answers, but I think the general consensus is that:

1) Natural monopolies are hard to tell apart from the normal market process. Every producer is a "monopolist" of his product. The real issue is monopolistic pricing.

2) Monopolistic pricing, unless created by government intervention, is a result of innovation and hard work. As such, it's temporary (constantly challenged by market forces) and it's a good thing, because innovation should be rewarded.

3) Monopolistic pricing is often the result of barriers to entry, but in most cases those barriers are created by government intervention. For instance, onerous health and safety regulations, and the patent system.

4) Anti-trust regulations harm consumers by rewarding the less efficient "sore losers" at the expense of the market leaders. They are essentially protectionist measures pushed by industrial lobbyists.

5) Predatory pricing simply doesn't work. Almost nobody does it, and those who try end up worse off.

https://mises.org/library/antitrust-reform-predatory-practices-and-competitive-process


f436ce No.11332

>>11199

>>11209

You guys have an extremely positive outlook on monopolies, in my opinion.

I feel it is quite easy for a monopoly to grow way out of control. Monopolies can actively reduce competition on many fields. Consider how an operating system like microsoft can influence nearly everything. It has taken many years for web applications to no longer be made specifically for ie6 (and there still are plenty that cannot move away). Every day people are plagued by having to use microsoft office and although some reasonable replacements exists, most likely exist because of government having stepped in in many cases (requiring an open standard for their "word" and so on, meaning microsoft had to tell some others about how docx and the like are implemented. In a world where they have no regulations they have to care about, I don't believe it would be hard for them to ruin that even more. Who would have heard of google if internet explorer blocked it near the start, to protect its own search engine. Alternative browser? We are the only browser you can find.

You can just look at ISPs in locations where google fiber arrived. Suddenly prices dropped and speeds increased dramatically. However you have to keep in mind that US ISPs have already been split due to how big of a monopoly they were, what if it was still bell? These corporations would have so much money that they can easily lock anybody else out. Most small competition to large ISPs have to rent the network from the large ISPs, in many cases, the large ISPs have had regulations made by government forcing them to do so. It is no longer feasable once one corporation has a giant network, to make a second one, because the corporation doesn't have to allow you access to their network in any way.

Once you become big, you can do things like buy up any actual competition, or pay off those that have any power whatsoever to block others. It is not like anarcho will suddenly mean there are no more people of power.

I just don't feel it is likely that monopolies will get taken down by healthy competition. Once you pass a critical mass, you will be able to influence nearly every market around you. Things like giving schools tools based on your products, limiting information, buying up competition, breaking compatibility with your system constantly and corruption can easily lead to you being a massive market force that is nearly impossible to take down, ever. And even if it dies one day, it is likely that it made many grand innovations be unsuccessful because they couldn't break through the market which was under control by the monopoly.

Getting a monopoly is about much more than predatory pricing. Although it is still frequently practiced and done. For example look at chinese metal dumping. They have hurt many western countries because china sold the metals for so much lower than it should have been able to afford, and while in this case, there is a government that is the cause, there is little reason to believe that there would not be a form of government in an anarcho society that could also do such a thing.


13cd7e No.11363

>>11332

> Consider how an operating system like microsoft can influence nearly everything.

Because, for a long time, only geeks cared about the lack of alternatives and the closed formats. Again, the market reflects people's preferences. To this day, everybody loves BIll Gates, and they idolize Steve Jobs. I tell you this as an Ubuntu user.

> most likely exist because of government having stepped in in many cases

Have you considered how the government had previously "stepped in" when it favored Microsoft products for official uses? Don't you think it matters that, for a long time, MS Office was a quasi-official government standard? For instance, in public schools and universities. That must count for something!

> microsoft had to tell some others about how docx and the like are implemented

The docx standard was opened shortly after ODF became an ISO standard. Governments already have a huge impact on the market. They should have less, not more.

> Who would have heard of google if internet explorer blocked it near the start

Young people wouldn't have heard of Microsoft. The company would be long dead by now if they had been dumb enough to try something like that. Apple would have stepped in and taken over most of the PC market. The rest would go to Ubuntu.

> You can just look at ISPs in locations where google fiber arrived. Suddenly prices dropped and speeds increased dramatically.

So what's your complaint? The free market fixed it.

> what if it was still bell?

Either it would be a high-quality service, or they would be facing competitors.

> It is no longer feasable once one corporation has a giant network, to make a second one, because the corporation doesn't have to allow you access to their network in any way.

What keeps you from building a paralell network? In most cases, government (including local) regulations play a big role. The issue of common infrastructure management is, in fact, a great argument for building private cities from scratch. Failing that, city districts should be able to secede and implement public works regulations more to their liking.

> Once you become big, you can do things like buy up any actual competition

That doesn't work, as other explained ITT.

> or pay off those that have any power whatsoever to block others.

If you mean politicians, that's an argument FOR anarcho-capitalism, not against it. How can you "block" the competition in a free market?

> It is not like anarcho will suddenly mean there are no more people of power.

It means that no person or group has public consent to steal from others or block their peaceful cooperation. No matter how wealthy you are, in an ancap society, once you step outside of peaceful cooperation, all your money is useless because it might as well be taken by force. Ask Louis XVI or Tsar Nicholas II about the usefulness of money when your legitimacy is questioned.

> Things like giving schools tools based on your products

Public schools, bribed politicians.

> For example look at chinese metal dumping. They have hurt many western countries because china sold the metals for so much lower than it should have been able to afford,

What about the benefits they got from having access to cheap metals?

> and while in this case, there is a government that is the cause

Governments do many things for political and military reasons. It's hard to tell apart one from the other. I don't know the details of this particular case, but, as I said, just like it harmed metal producers it helped metal consumers. By the way, does this argument mean you advocate world government?


9c4610 No.14379

>>8899

>Childish, hopelessly naive nonsense

>Communist flag

That's rich, Marx boy


e66289 No.14389

>>11199

>1) A monopoly must still compete if they are not a government sponsored monopoly. If they don't improve their product constantly, competitors move in with cheap knockoffs that perform essentially the same tasks, or come up with better things than them. Carnegie didn't remain the steel master by sitting on his ass and counting his shekels. He made steel cheap and easily accessible to the average American using an economy of scale, benefiting everyone significantly (and he was altruistic in the end to boot).

>

>2) Price manipulation doesn't work in reality unless you have government force to back you up. While monopolies operate on economies of scale, they are still dependent on the success of the individual businesses. When they lower prices below a certain threshold, they lose profit. A lot of businesses, due to their small nature, can afford to close down during this time. When the monopoly goes to raise prices through the roof, small businesses tend to spring up and steal their customers, causing the monopoly to lose money a second time. This happens a few times (woth consumers switching to small businesses more and more) until eventually, the monopoly decides that the region is incapable of bringing a profit in. Simply put, monopolies can only offer cheaper prices if they can maintain cheaper prices- if they maintain cheaper prices, then they need to maintain at least a similar number of staff as the small business if not more so it's not like people are losing jobs- in fact the business owner might make more per hour being a supervisor, much in the same way a personal restaurant owner might be better off cooking for a chain. The cheaper prices ensure that people also have more buying power.

screened




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