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YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

8c6d4d No.9006

Romney Slams Trump

Looks like Roger Stone was right. GOP is using Romney to eliminate Trump. Anyway, do you agree with Romney that tariffs "would instigate a trade war and that would raise prices for consumers, kill our export jobs and lead to entrepreneurs and businesses of all stripes to flee America"?

>If we Republicans choose Donald Trump as our nominee, the prospects for a safe and prosperous future are greatly diminished. Let me explain why I say that

>First on the economy. If Donald Trump's plans were ever implemented, the country would sink into prolonged recession.

>A few examples, his proposed 35 percent tariff like penalties would instigate a trade war and that would raise prices for consumers, kill our export jobs and lead to entrepreneurs and businesses of all stripes to flee America.

>His take plan in combination with his refusal to reform entitlements and honestly address spending would balloon the deficit and the national debt.

>His bankruptcies have crushed small businesses, and the men and women who work for them. He inherited his business he didn't create it - and whatever happened to Trump airlines, how about Trump University, and then there's Trump Magazine and Trump Vodka and Trump Steaks, and Trump Mortgage, a business genius he is not

8c6d4d No.9007

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>Looks like Roger Stone was right

In case you haven't seen the video.


be77d4 No.9013

Not having high tariffs has destroyed jobs in this country


8c6d4d No.9016

File: 1457034804001.mp4 (6.17 MB, 576x324, 16:9, romney trump 3.mp4)

webm for the greentext


76a631 No.9023

>>9016

DONALD TRUMP ON SUICIDE WATCH


a21861 No.9047

Probably a bad move in that he is likely despised now but he is entirely correct.


7d5599 No.9089

Even though this is a GOPe attempt to stump Trump, Romney did address several legitimate criticisms of Trump.

Trump does act like a bully. Trump does rely on talking points. Most of Trump's plans (even though I wish they could succeed) have no chance in hell of ever happening in this political climate.

That being said...

I don't agree that Trump's ideas on tariffs are bad, but I admittedly don't know a lot about the effects (good and bad) of them. I can understand Romney's concerns about them though.

I don't agree that Trump is a failed/bad businessman. He's admittedly a great businessman, even if he got his start through nepotism. Yeah, he's had several high profile failures and those should be addressed though.

And of course people are completely glossing over Romney actually agreeing with some of Trump's policies (Obamacare for one).

It's great to be able to disagree with/not completely support Trump and not have to worry about being called a paid Jewish shill and being banned for months on end. Thank you /politics/ mods/board owner.


f083c9 No.9146

Pretty pathetic, and will probably only bolster the case that Trump is presenting. The GOP has been using dogwhistle tactics to appeal to working-class voters while constantly fucking them over with austerity and free trade, and now that an insurgent populist has tapped into the discontent of this group like no one in decades, they're going insane and trying to pretend that they're morally superior to Trump even though their policies are as bad or worse. I wrote an article about this a few months back:

http://bunkermag.org/the-road-to-trump/


61b8c2 No.9153

>>9047

At this point, I think most white Americans would prefer America to be poor for a while, so that the immigrants fucking leave.


61b8c2 No.9155

>>9016

This is the guy who denounced China as a currency manipulator and described Russia as America's greatest geopolitical foe.


a21861 No.9165

>>9153

Trump is all talk and has no experience. Even bloody JEB! would be able to enforce immigration laws better.


61b8c2 No.9166

>>9165

Maybe JEB! would be able but nothing indicates that he would want to.


a21861 No.9170

>>9166

Again, anyone else. Trump has no plan, would have a congress that despised him and a Supreme Court eager to strike down his laws.


61b8c2 No.9174

>>9170

> Trump has no plan

The wall is not enough, but it's a good start. I expect him to do things he can't say in a campaign.

Congress is not a problem. He'd do it by executive order if needed. The Supreme Court may try to stop him, but they have to respect the law and the constitution just like him.


a3a248 No.9180

File: 1457049594663.png (50.89 KB, 613x279, 613:279, rubin1.PNG)


a21861 No.9184

>>9174

The Wall is a political diversion. It will never get passed and he knows that.

>He'd do it by executive order if needed. The Supreme Court may try to stop him, but they have to respect the law and the constitution just like him.

Where is the constitutional basis for overriding states rights, building a vast PW program and deporting 11 million people? You are an anarcho-capitalist for cripes sake! You should be able to see through this liberal abomination of a proposal.

The local governments would not agree to it, the Supreme Court would strike it down under the Commerce Clause, which explicitly gives CONGRESS the authority to regulate inter-state commerce.

Kennedy would die of a heart attack due to pure joy.


61b8c2 No.9191

>>9184

I'm no expert in the US constitution, but I'd say borders are a Federal issue. It affects the whole nation. Also, they can't speak of the Commerce Clause after they gave Obamacare the A-OK (just call it a tax lol).

> You are an anarcho-capitalist for cripes sake!

Yes, and Mexicans are far more socialist than Americans. For ancaps it's basically pick your poison. Mass socialist and hostile immigration is worse than any other policy because it's irreversible, short of civil war and ethnic cleansing.

Besides, I'm a HOPPEAN ancap, not the open-borders variant.

Why are you so butthurt?


a21861 No.9196

>>9191

Borders are a federal issue. Building public works programs through executive order are not.

>Also, they can't speak of the Commerce Clause after they gave Obamacare the A-OK

I can already propose how they get around that: Obamacare was passed by congress and covers multiple states and is thus inter-state trade while the Wall was rejected by states and by congress and is therefore not covered under the clause.

>Mexicans are far more socialist than Americans

If I were in their shoes I would be. So would you. So would every damn person on Earth. People who are desperate make bad decisions, that is why Mexico needs stabilization.

>Why are you so butthurt?

Someone is taking the party of Lincoln, Roosevelt, Dewey and Reagan and turning it into a media joke.


61b8c2 No.9214

>>9196

>If I were in their shoes I would be.

That's not the issue. The POTUS should serve Americans, not Mexicans.

> So would you.

No, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't. I'm not American, btw, I'm just looking at the show from Europe, all comfy and eating popcorn :^)

Really, there's no excuse for being a socialist, except maybe if you were brainwashed as a child. Being poor is no excuse for being a politicized thief. And again, that's not the issue. They are socialists and they will make America socialist.

> Mexico needs stabilization.

You mean sending the US army there?

> Someone is taking the party of Lincoln, Roosevelt, Dewey and Reagan and turning it into a media joke.

Lincoln prevented a secession, ancaps dont like that. The others I guess are fine, but they didn't have to face the immigration problem America has now. Maybe if you could bring them back to life they would side with Trump.


ea0f64 No.9216

>>9196

I'm enthusiastic about Trump in the sense that he is pushing the dialectic, but I have no knowledge of U.S law. What I gathered was that Obama was able to override states rights and congress with executive orders. Is this true or not, and how does it relate to Trump?

>>9191

>Besides, I'm a HOPPEAN ancap, not the open-borders variant.

Hoppe get's BTFO erryime by anarchist and analytical philosophy students, he doesn't even enter the little league.


61b8c2 No.9222

>>9216

>Hoppe get's BTFO erryime by anarchist and analytical philosophy students, he doesn't even enter the little league.

I don't idolize Hoppe, tbh, but he's a big figure of anarcho-capitalism, and he effectively destroyed the doctrine of open-borders. I came to similar conclusions before I even knew about him.


a21861 No.9225

>>9216

I believe many of the ways he did was technically legal in that they tended to be enforcing laws already on the books, were too small a matter to really be investigated and were largely controversial even then.

The wall would likely be argued to not fall under interstate commerce laws or rather be interpreted as such so if he enforced it by pen then it would be overturned.

Plus the SCOTUS is likely to be highly liberal and will almost never rule in Trump's favor.

>>9214

>Really, there's no excuse for being a socialist

Starvation? Is the radicalism of the poor too hard for you to understand?

These are not welfare bums. These are non-voting people being unable to live in their native countries.

>You mean sending the US army there?

No, I mean forcing the Mexican government to properly sort its problems out.

>but they didn't have to face the immigration problem America has now

Roosevelt helped broker peace between two Empires. Reagan ended the Cold War.

Out of those 3/4 were moderate republicans. If anything they would support Kasich or, due to old compared to new social standards, Cruz.


ea0f64 No.9229

>>9225

There are already border fences, what makes the Trump wall intrinsically different to them?

There can be no immigration policy without a border and deportation policy, so aren't his opponents in fact proposing a dissolution of immigration policy?

I have no knowledge of the legal details, but this seems like a logical conclusion to me.

>>9222

So he is a manifestation of your sentiments... nothing unusual about that, but you have to admit that he's an absolute garbage tier philosopher and economist. Anarcho-capitalism is the looney bin of libertarianism.


be77d4 No.9231

>>9225

>Out of those 3/4 were moderate republicans. If anything they would support Kasich or, due to old compared to new social standards, Cruz.

m8, trump IS a moderate, I would hardly even call him a conservative at all. Cruz is way more to the right than trump


a21861 No.9235

>>9231

He is a fascist. There is a difference. And I sincerely mean he is a fascist.

>>9229

Because of just how long he plans to make it and how high. Plus then the deport 11 million people plan... it is a clusterfuck.


ea0f64 No.9237

>>9235

"Fascist" is the "demonic" of modern ideology, it's sole meaning is indicating that what is accused of being fascist as being counter-thesis to modern ideology.


a21861 No.9239

>>9237

I mean sincerely fascist. He wants a unified American state "united" by Xenophobia.

Similarly he also seems to be against the 1st amendment.

Plus then the cult of trump.

That seems pretty fascist


ea0f64 No.9244

>>9239

I see, he is the anti-thesis of modern ideology because he embodies the anti-thesis as pathology.

Don't use terms as "xenofobia" or I'll have to accuse you of Trumpofobia, Liberaricisism and Conservatardism.

My point is that fascism doesn't exist as anything more than a hostile spectre.


a21861 No.9246

>>9244

Sure and that is your right, until Trump removes certain laws and I will be able to sue you under American law for being offensive. Forgot about that, didn't you?

Fascism is always lurking, just like socialism if a population is not vigilant then it will end democracy.


ea0f64 No.9249

>>9246

There needs to be Fascism, there needs to be an anti-thesis, a shadow, these aren't concrete persons or ideologies, but pillars of implicit ideology.

You could just as well be the fascist, many communists would probably describe you as so.


a21861 No.9251

>>9249

Sure, but in terms of the historical definitions of fascism trump meets a great deal of them.


ea0f64 No.9252

>>9251

What are those definitions based upon?

What is their purpose?


61b8c2 No.9253

>>9225

>Starvation? Is the radicalism of the poor too hard for you to understand?

The point is moot because socialism is not a product of dispair, it's a product of envy and hubris. Most hardcore socialists are actually quite wealthy and/or perma-NEETs with no work ethic.

If you are hungry, you politely ask for a job. If you can't get a job, you politely ask for charity. If you are desperate enough to steal, you know you are doing wrong, you dont feel entitled to it. Unless you are socialist scum.

> No, I mean forcing the Mexican government to properly sort its problems out.

And how would you do that?

> Roosevelt helped broker peace between two Empires. Reagan ended the Cold War.

None of that has a thing to do with immigration. You missed the point. They didn't build a wall because hostile immigration was simply not an issue. It only became an issue after 1965, unless you count the freed negros as immigration.

>>9229

> So he is a manifestation of your sentiments...

nothing unusual about that, but you have to admit that he's an absolute garbage tier philosopher and economist. Anarcho-capitalism is the looney bin of libertarianism.

He's a fine philosopher (his economics are also correct, but were laid out by Mises, Rothbard and others), and I challenge you to bring examples where he "got BTFOd" by the shitheads you like so much. I'd bet it's on issues no ancap cares about.

I just said I don't idolize him. He can be wrong from time to time, but he's a thousand times better than any anarcho-leftie ever born, and one of the best libertarian philosophers.

In fact, open-borders libertarianism is a stillborn philosophy, almost commie-tier in its hopeless internal contradictions. Only Hoppean anarcho-capitalism and closed-borders minarchism deserve any respect.


a21861 No.9255

>>9252

The main one used is the "14 points" of fascism.

>Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

This is basically Trump's campaign. A lot of it is nationalistic.

>Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Trump has called for torture, killing terrorists families and other such methods. Hardly a humanitarian.

>Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

Mexicans, journalists, the Chinese, "cuckservatives"

>Supremacy of the Military

Hasn't of yet but Trump does veer towards hero worship

>Rampant Sexism

Arguable but trump has made several dubious comments.

>Controlled Mass Media

N/A

>Obsession with National Security

Very big one with Trump.

>Religion and Government are Intertwined

He has made slight overtures to evangelicals, though nothing substantial

>Corporate Power is Protected

Arguable but Trump is no FDR when it comes to regulation.

>Labor Power is Suppressed

We'll have to wait and see but judging by background quite likely to happen

>Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

See: his attacks on basically everyone.

>Obsession with Crime and Punishment

yup.

Rest largely apply to regimes already setup.

>>9253

>it's a product of envy and hubris

Caused by despair.

>Most hardcore socialists are actually quite wealthy and/or perma-NEETs with no work ethic.

Sure... in 1st world countries. In Mexico I would argue it is different.

>you politely ask for a job.

Which pay little, and then the drug gangs take a lot plus government taxes...

>you politely ask for charity

Which is limited.

You rather remind me of a J.B. Priestley character.

>And how would you do that?

Increase aid but provide it directly instead of through the Mexican government. Pressure the government to legalise certain drugs for a trial period to see if it lowers the cartels' powers. Pressure the Mexican government to get rid of corrupt officials.


61b8c2 No.9263

>>9255

> Sure... in 1st world countries. In Mexico I would argue it is different.

But that's not because of poverty. It's because of the thoroughly corrupt political system, government, cartels and all, which leads to moral relativism. Like, everybody steals, it's all about who steals from whom. Eat or be eaten, all that crap. Not poverty itself.

>Pressure the government to legalise certain drugs for a trial period to see if it lowers the cartels' powers.

You mean legalize in the USA? Yes, that would work, but you have zero chance of legalizing coke in the current political climate. Marihuana maybe, but it would have no impact. Coke is the shit.


ea0f64 No.9265

>>9253

>He's a fine philosopher (his economics are also correct, but were laid out by Mises, Rothbard and others), and I challenge you to bring examples where he "got BTFOd" by the shitheads you like so much. I'd bet it's on issues no ancap cares about.

Take "argumentation ethics".

https://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/debunking-the-argument-for-self-ownership/

>In fact, open-borders libertarianism is a stillborn philosophy, almost commie-tier in its hopeless internal contradictions. Only Hoppean anarcho-capitalism and closed-borders minarchism deserve any respect.

It's the exact opposite, Hoppe is the contradiction. Hoppe stated that he wants miniature dictature ships in which all gays, non-whites and other people he doesn't like don't have any freedom at all.

>>9255

I could apply this to Hillary Clinton as well. My irk with this theory is that it is ideology, mostly implicit ideology, being disguised as a quanitifiable scientific standard. Fascism only exists as an other. The same is true for "scapegoating", which truly means "attacking a group with a high position in my ideological status web". And so Obama doesn't scapegoat gun owners, socialists doesn't scapegoat the bourgeosie and you don't scapegoat fascists.


be77d4 No.9266

>>9239

>Similarly he also seems to be against the 1st amendment.

How?


a21861 No.9268

>>9263

Yes but those things cause poverty. How can you expect the poor to just starve to death?

>You mean legalize in the USA?

In Mexico. Mexico is the main one facing the brunt and could probably have it done.

>>9265

Yes, obviously it is incomplete and not always applicable but I think that certain elements of his campaign veer to the uncomfortability associated with right-wing radicalism.


ea0f64 No.9273

>>9268

The main Republican attack on him is that he isn't right-wing enough, a Randian such as Paul Ryan is much more radical than Trump.

A better definition of fascism would therefor be crossing the overton window on issues such as immigration and left-wing embeddedness


a21861 No.9274

>>9273

He isn't right wing in that on some issues he has and had taken up leftist positions but he is really all about control. He wants the wall so that he can control the borders. He wants to limit the first amendment so that he can control the press, albeit indirectly. He wants uhc so that he can control peoples' health.


ea0f64 No.9279

>>9274

Those are accusations that are entirely unspecific, all politicians want control, politics is impossible without it.


a21861 No.9283

>>9279

Yes but they want it for a reason - "for the good of the nation/people" and so forth. Trump just wants the power.


ea0f64 No.9284

>>9283

So he's a voluntary egoist while the others are involuntary egoists?


a21861 No.9286

>>9284

The others stand for something he doesn't. Think of him like if Frank Underwood was real, a businessman and an even bigger egoist.


ea0f64 No.9288

>>9286

Do they stand for something, or do they let something stand for them?

I can't see politicians such as Hillary Clinton as being more faithfull in their supposed principles than Trump. The two party system simply doesn't allow more principled parties with True Believer politicians.


61b8c2 No.9292

>>9265

> Take "argumentation ethics".

https://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/debunking-the-argument-for-self-ownership/

Low-energy attempt at a refutation.

"I have written a few entries on the nonsensical concept that we call self-ownership"

Oh, boy. Here we go.

"but I have not yet discussed the argument put forward in its defense. I say “argument” in the singular because there is really only one"

No, there are at least two (perhaps more). Just because both use the concept of "property" in relation to the human body, it doesn't mean they are the same argument. The author's sloppy reasoning is far too obvious.

I agree Hoppe's argument is probably flawed, but no ancap cares because we justify self ownership from a moral objection to slavery. We don't need rhetorical tricks.

The Rothbard quote is irrefutably correct and the author makes no attempt at a rebuttal.

"Rothbard likewise cannot envision any alternative to the view that we’re a piece of property,"

What we call "property" is the right to physically control a scarce resource (typically a physical object or being) to the exclusion of every other person. The human body can always be treated as property in this particular context of ethical reasoning. That doesn't excludes other possible treatments or demean the human body in any way. Just because the author doesn't like this methodology, it doesn't make it unsound.

> Human beings are not a kind of thing that can be owned

Yes they are. Ownership is the right to control a scarce resource. The author is claiming that humans do not belong to the category of beings potentially subject to physical control, which is patently false.

Not worth discussing the rest. Utter crap. The only valid rebuttal comes from Robert Murphy. You could have linked his essay instead of that piece of garbage.

https://mises.org/library/hans-hermann-hoppes-argumentation-ethic-critique

Murphy's conclusion:

"Let us emphasize that we realize Hoppe’s observations are con-

sistent with the rest of libertarian thought. For example, Hoppe advo-

cates human self-ownership as an initial state of affairs, only to be

denied to individuals in special circumstances, such as when they

have been convicted of a crime. But the whole point of Hoppe’s

approach is not to argue that libertarianism is merely reasonable or

preferable, but that it is logically undeniable; for his argument to

work, he cannot afford to assume any libertarian principles at the

outset. So if Hoppe’s argument doesn’t prove that criminals own

themselves, then it can’t prove that non-criminals do, either, since

there’s nothing in the argument itself concerning criminal behavior.

Hoppe’s argument is an intriguing one, but it ultimately fails.

Although we support Hoppe’s goals, we cannot endorse flawed

arguments aimed at achieving those goals, as the acceptance of such

implies that we do not have better arguments on our side."

You see? Hoppe's argumentation ethics was never regarded by ancaps as anything but a intriguing experiment. No one relies on it.

Yes, Hoppe's argumentation ethics is probably flawed. No, it's not central to anarcho-capitalism in any meaninful sense. Anarcho-capitalist theory comes mainly from Rothbard. Hoppe added a few useful corrections to misguided open-borders leftietarians. "Democracy: the God that failed" is a much better book.

> It's the exact opposite, Hoppe is the contradiction. Hoppe stated that he wants miniature dictature ships in which all gays, non-whites and other people he doesn't like don't have any freedom at all.

Would you say all gays and nonwhites have a right to get into your house? What about ISIS members? What about Fascists and Nazis? They don't, right? Your house, your rules. Same thing Hoppe says, except that your house includes some land.


61b8c2 No.9294

>>9268

> Yes but those things cause poverty. How can you expect the poor to just starve to death?

I never said that. I said that just because you are poor doesn't mean you are ENTITLED to other people's stuff. Of course, I understand someone may steal out of dispair, but they should know they are in the wrong. Again, the point is moot. The typical socialist is not starving child in Africa, he's an obnoxious hipster in a Che T-shirt tweeting Marxist slogans from his smartphone.

> In Mexico. Mexico is the main one facing the brunt and could probably have it done.

First, how would America force Mexico to do shit, without sending the army?

Second, I think you are wrong, Mexico is mainly a drug transit zone. Coke goes from Colombia to America through Mexico, because coming through Miami by sea became too difficult.


ea0f64 No.9295

>>9292

You didn't refute anything in the link, you didn't even address it.

>What we call "property" is the right to physically control a scarce resource (typically a physical object or being) to the exclusion of every other person. The human body can always be treated as property in this particular context of ethical reasoning. That doesn't excludes other possible treatments or demean the human body in any way. Just because the author doesn't like this methodology, it doesn't make it unsound.

>The human body can always be treated as property in this particular context of ethical reasoning

>in this particular context of ethical reasoning

You likewise cannot envision any alternative to the view that we’re a piece of property.

>Not worth discussing the rest. Utter crap.

You got BTFO and get no further than "we are property in the anarcho-capitalist context of property, because I say that it is". A repetition of circular dogma.

>You see? Hoppe's argumentation ethics was never regarded by ancaps as anything but a intriguing experiment. No one relies on it

The biggest figure in anarcho-capitalism, Stefan Molyneux, does.

>Would you say all gays and nonwhites have a right to get into your house? What about ISIS members? What about Fascists and Nazis? They don't, right? Your house, your rules. Same thing Hoppe says, except that your house includes some land.

But Hoppe isn't talking about houses. He talks about the physical removal from society of everyone he doesn't like, that is a fundamental difference.


61b8c2 No.9298

>>9295

> You didn't refute anything in the link, you didn't even address it.

On the contrary, I proved the author's contributions to be utter crap. The only good parts are not his.

> You likewise cannot envision any alternative to the view that we’re a piece of property.

You still dont get it. I'm making no claim one way or the other about alternative views. I say we are "property" under the strict technical definition I mentioned. You can't refute this claim unless you prove that, under this strict definition, we are not, in fact, "property". The fact that we can be described or analysed in other ways is irrelevant to the truth or falsety of the claim you are trying to refute.

> You got BTFO and get no further than "we are property in the anarcho-capitalist context of property, because I say that it is". A repetition of circular dogma.

No, I say we are "property" as clearly defined above. The human body is a physical object. As such, it's a scarce resource. Different people may have different plans for this resource, and those plans may be incompatible. Whoever has a moral right to get his way is the owner of this resource. There's nothing circular here.

> The biggest figure in anarcho-capitalism, Stefan Molyneux, does.

HAHAHA yeah, right, whatever. Heck, I'd say Chris Cantwell is a better Hoppean ancap.

Now, seriously, I don't give a rat's ass about vloggers. Mises was arguably an ancap, even if he didn't know it, much less call himself that. His description of "democracy", where secession is allowed even for the smallest communities, is essentially top-down anarcho-capitalism.

Then you have Rothbard, and then the rest, prominently Hoppe (on immigration) and Kinsella (regarding IP). Maybe a few others. Definitely not the likes of Molyneux.


61b8c2 No.9299

>>9295

>But Hoppe isn't talking about houses. He talks about the physical removal from society of everyone he doesn't like, that is a fundamental difference.

Physical removal meaning expulsion from a particular community operating under a particular covenant. People joke about "physical removal" as if it means execution, but it's just that, a little in-joke.


ea0f64 No.9301

>>9298

>On the contrary, I proved the author's contributions to be utter crap. The only good parts are not his.

No, you repeated your proposition, which the author stated that Hoppe does endlessly, and called the rest "utter crap". You didn't prove anything, you didn't even address it.

>You still dont get it. I'm making no claim one way or the other about alternative views. I say we are "property" under the strict technical definition I mentioned. You can't refute this claim unless you prove that, under this strict definition, we are not, in fact, "property". The fact that we can be described or analysed in other ways is irrelevant to the truth or falsety of the claim you are trying to refute.

Yes, your ideology defines everything as a property issue. That is correct and it was the point that was made in the article. The issue lies with stating it must be necessarily be so and claiming that this is Logical as in Logic being independent from ideology.

>No, I say we are "property" as clearly defined above. The human body is a physical object. As such, it's a scarce resource. Different people may have different plans for this resource, and those plans may be incompatible. Whoever has a moral right to get his way is the owner of this resource. There's nothing circular here.

How can a physical object own a physical object that is itself?

How can you say that this is necessarily a property issue, without referring back to your ideology which states that it is?

The circularity lies in starting with property, to conclude with property. It's like stating that the bible is true, because the bible states that it is. Unless you have not made a proposition, and you just described the propositions of anarcho-capitalism.

Another problem is that "moral right", in this case means "anarcho-capitalist absolute property right", which leads to conclusions from the concept of property that only ancaps would draw from it, while using the general term.


61b8c2 No.9358

>>9301

> No, you repeated your proposition,

No, you repeated that I repeated my proposition, and you are doing that endlessly.

> and called the rest "utter crap".

The author's original contributions are utter crap. The actual argument he mentions is probably sound, but it's not his. The argument was made by Robert Murphy, who (last time I checked, and according to his WP entry) is also an anarcho-capitalist. That's been my point all along. Hoppe's argumentation ethics is not nearly as crucial to anarcho-capitalism as you seem to believe.

> Yes, your ideology defines everything as a property issue.

My ideology *treats* everything as a property issue. The concept of "property" is just a convenient way to analyse human conflict over scarce resources from a moral point of view.

You haven't shown any flaw in the idea that the human body can be treated as a resource.

> The issue lies with stating it must be necessarily be so and claiming that this is Logical as in Logic being independent from ideology.

You are conflating two separate issues: on one hand, the frequent ancap methodology of using the concept of "property", clearly and narrowly defined, to analyse human conflict. On the other hand, Hoppe's claim that denying self-ownership is logically inconsistent.

The former is not a claim, it's a methodology. It can't be called "true" or "false", it can only be called "sound" or "unsound". You can only prove it unsound by pointing out a wrong underlying assumption. Neither you nor the author have done that. The only underlying assumption it makes is that the human body is a physical object. If you agree to that, the methodology is sound.

Regarding Hoppe's claim, as I said, few ancaps take it as anything more than epic trolling. It was attacked by fellow ancaps who didn't stop being ancaps after that.

As I said, Hoppe's main contributions are his views on immigration and, perhaps, on the relationship between conservatism and libertarianism, that is, his joint attack on paleoconservatism and "socially liberal" libertarianism on the grounds that the welfare state goes hand-in-hand with degenerate conduct.

> How can a physical object own a physical object that is itself?

You haven't shown how this concept is absurd or contradictory. A human being is a physical object AND an actor. As such, he has the ability to manipulate physical objects, including himself. You do it every time you lift a finger. An actor's moral right to exclusive control of a resource is, by definition, ownership of that resource.

> How can you say that this is necessarily a property issue, without referring back to your ideology which states that it is?

As I said, the concept of property is not a claim, it's just convenient jargon. Every key ancap argument can be rephrased without using the concept of "property" at all, but that would be cumbersome and silly.

> Another problem is that "moral right", in this case means "anarcho-capitalist absolute property right",

No, I just linked "moral right" to the concept of "ownership", in order to define the latter. I deliberately left "moral right" undefined, hence avoiding circularity. I assumed we agree on the meaning of "moral right". If we don't, that's yet another issue.


ea0f64 No.9498

>>9358

>My ideology *treats* everything as a property issue. The concept of "property" is just a convenient way to analyse human conflict over scarce resources from a moral point of view.

It's convenient for ancaps because they can conclude their ideology from it. They start with property, to conclude with property.

>The former is not a claim, it's a methodology. It can't be called "true" or "false", it can only be called "sound" or "unsound". You can only prove it unsound by pointing out a wrong underlying assumption. Neither you nor the author have done that. The only underlying assumption it makes is that the human body is a physical object. If you agree to that, the methodology is sound.

You haven't given any argumentation for why it is necessarily so. You state that a body is physical, and then conclude that human beings are necessarily property without any justification for why it is so.

The human body being physical is a descriptive claim, self-ownership is a normative claim. The wrong underlying assumption is that the normative claim follows from the descriptive claim, the is/ought problem.

>You haven't shown how this concept is absurd or contradictory. A human being is a physical object AND an actor. As such, he has the ability to manipulate physical objects, including himself. You do it every time you lift a finger. An actor's moral right to exclusive control of a resource is, by definition, ownership of that resource.

Because a physical object owning a physical object doesn't make any sense, and there is no distinction between the actor and the physical object. Again, the normative claim of property doesn't follow from the descriptive claim of interaction.

>As I said, the concept of property is not a claim, it's just convenient jargon. Every key ancap argument can be rephrased without using the concept of "property" at all, but that would be cumbersome and silly.

It's the central tenet of anarcho-capitalism, everything being hyper-moralist absolute property.


61b8c2 No.9567

>>9498

We keep going in circles. You've been talking to a particular kind of ancaps and you think all ancaps agree on everything. In fact, we are arguing with each other all the time. The only two basic claims of anarcho-capitalism are:

1) No-one should be given the privilege set the rules. The rules must stand on their own merits by general consensus. For us, anarchy is the rule of law in the strictest sense, as opposed to the rule of law-makers.

2) The best rules of coexistence (from an ethical, economic, practical and/or political point of view) are those of free-market capitalism.

The rest is subject to constant debate.

> It's convenient for ancaps because they can conclude their ideology from it. They start with property, to conclude with property.

Concluding with "property" would win us nothing, because the issue remains of who is the owner of that property. You can argue for communism within this "property" methodology.

> The human body being physical is a descriptive claim, self-ownership is a normative claim.

And I'm making no such claim. You are confusing two separate claims:

1) The human body is (can be treated as) property.

2) Each human being is the owner of his body.

Claim #1 is descriptive. Claim #2 in normative. Hoppe tried to derive claim #2 from claim #1 and little else. Unsurprisingly, he failed. I still respect him because of his other contributions.

> Because a physical object owning a physical object doesn't make any sense, and there is no distinction between the actor and the physical object.

You say "it doesn't make any sense because it doesn't make any sense". That's not a rebuttal. The actor happens to also be the physical object. There's no contradiction. As I said, you can obviously modify your own body.

> Again, the normative claim of property doesn't follow from the descriptive claim of interaction.

Again, you confuse claim #1 with claim #2.

> It's the central tenet of anarcho-capitalism, everything being hyper-moralist absolute property.

Who told you that?


ea0f64 No.9574

>>9567

>We keep going in circles. You've been talking to a particular kind of ancaps and you think all ancaps agree on everything. In fact, we are arguing with each other all the time. The only two basic claims of anarcho-capitalism are:

I responded to a "hoppean ancap" by stating that he was BTFO. You responded to the link I posted by stating that it was BS, so I assumed you were arguing in favour of Hoppe's argumentation ethics that were refuted in the linked article.

>Concluding with "property" would win us nothing, because the issue remains of who is the owner of that property. You can argue for communism within this "property" methodology.

Deriving an absolute property based morality, from a system in which everything is such property, is concluding property from property. That is what was pointed out in the link, it not helping one bit with the actual application of anarcho-capitalism doesn't make it any less circular.

>You say "it doesn't make any sense because it doesn't make any sense". That's not a rebuttal. The actor happens to also be the physical object. There's no contradiction. As I said, you can obviously modify your own body.

Ownership is a relation between owner and owned, there is no such relationship between a thing and itself. This logic starts with the premise of us being property, and then concluding that we have self-ownership, using the conclusion as justification of the premise.

>Who told you that?

Every anarcho-capitalist who concludes that anarcho-capitalist absolutely property rights are intrinsically, and objectively, moral.


61b8c2 No.9584

>>9574

> I responded to a "hoppean ancap" by stating that he was BTFO. You responded to the link I posted by stating that it was BS, so I assumed you were arguing in favour of Hoppe's argumentation ethics that were refuted in the linked article.

I see. No, I call myself "Hoppean" mainly because of his views on immigration and social issues.

> Deriving an absolute property based morality, from a system in which everything is such property, is concluding property from property. That is what was pointed out in the link, it not helping one bit with the actual application of anarcho-capitalism doesn't make it any less circular.

My point is that, in discarding the whole notion of self-ownership (something Robert Murphy did NOT do in his rebuttal) the author is going beyond a criticism of Hoppe's argument and into sloppy reasoning (ie "utter crap").

> Ownership is a relation between owner and owned, there is no such relationship between a thing and itself.

Why not? Again, you can (descriptive claim) modify your (alleged)own body, therefore you may (or may not) have a right to do it (normative claim), therefore you may (or may not) own your (alleged) own body.

> This logic starts with the premise of us being property, and then concluding that we have self-ownership, using the conclusion as justification of the premise.

Maybe Hoppe's argument does, but the concept of self-ownership, by itself, does not. It's just a concept, not a claim. You can say "no, I don't believe in self-ownership" and I won't complain about performative contradiction.

> Every anarcho-capitalist who concludes that anarcho-capitalist absolutely property rights are intrinsically, and objectively, moral.

I believe that anarcho-capitalism is morally better than other doctrines, but not based on Hoppe's argumentation ethics. I also think it's the best system in a practical sense, in terms of peace and prosperity, but that's another matter.


b9267a No.10751


675057 No.11082

>>9007

>doubt

>BUT

>ted cruz as a supreme court justice

terrifying.

>romney fighting for a nomination as a late entry

last two times he got the nomination obama rekt him. he might actually clinch it if he's not fighting the obama hype train.

>clinton family in prison over ghazi and graft

fucking funny.

>cruz missile tactics on carson

reportedly true.

>lerminarty using media to attack trump

trump deliberately decided to make an adversary of the media. it's dumb to lament not having many journalists in his corner now.

Having said that, I actually kind of like Alex Jones, he's entertaining, he doesn't have the sophistication to filter out misinfo he's fed OR build a deceptive narrative to manipulate, he gets some interesting guests, and he's successfully built himself into a noted counter-culture figure (including cameos in amazing films like the pop-philosophy art film Waking Life).

I don't think he's as crazy as he's made out to be: there's some fucking ridiculous shit rolling around the PR complex and diplomatic circles. But taking all of it on it's face is a terrible idea, because people will lie, generate big waves to hide small actions, or just have mannerisms and idioms you don't understand.


60ad59 No.11119

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>10751

>>9006

That certainly didn't help Rubio, especially since Romney was stumping for him too.

Romney doesn't understand that no one likes him and everyone is tired of his shit.

https://twitter.com/FoxBusiness/status/705548869925539840/photo/1


2e493e No.11177

>>9153

Sorry for saying this, but that sounds fucking stupid. "People come here because they believe my country to be better than theirs, because this annoys me, I will make my country as bad as theirs and make them stop comming, this is a good idea and in my best interest".

The best way for most countries to stop immigration is to stop fucking around with so many other countries so much and change our way of giving funds to a country.

None of the influential countries will ever attempt to put a democratic government in place in any country they try to change. It is much more beneficial to put a dictator in place that is favorable to you. Dictators generally lead to things like worse healthcare, worse schooling, worse work opportunities. Dictators don't get their money from taxes, they get it from other countries or natural resources like oil. If we stop putting dictatorships everywhere and accept that sometimes people will be stupid and vote for a muslim brotherhood instead of a more reasonable democracy, we will be fine. True democracies nearly never start wars, especially not in countries that would not fully overpower an enemy. Its not beneficial to start a way because it decreases support in your government too much. There is really barely anything to fear from a democratic country, even if its a democracy ruled by hardcore muslims at some point in time. Democracies tend to improve the situation of its population, because that is how you get power. If you depend on 1.5 million of your 3 million people to stay in power, you will do things that benefit at least 1.5 million people, likely pretty much everybody, even those that did not vote for you, because that is how the majority of changes you make will work. They will be very non specific. While in a dictatorship, you generally depend on sometimes less than 100 people to stay in power. If that is the case, you will not improve the life of your average person, you will do things that mainly improve the situation of those 100 people, because the number of people is so low, you can be very specific and things that benefit them will not benefit anybody else.

This is why helping democracy in other countries will reduce immigration.

Another big one is that we need to change how money is given to other countries. In many cases, lets take pakistan as an example, we give them a few millions which they say they will use to fight al qaeda, and year after year they will fight al qaeda a little bit, and we will continue giving them millions. They will never defeat al qaeda because that means they would stop getting money, they will do just enough to ensure they get money, but also too little to ensure they will keep on getting money. A way to solve these problems is to instead of giving them money for a promise, let them do the work first, and have the money be locked until they fulfill the goals, after which it unlocks. Giving money to help a country fund its education? Have the funds in a locked bank account which unlocks once they have improved education. There is no country in the world that does not have enough money to do anything needed, if they are guaranteed to get the money once they complete the required goal. The way we give money now means that huge parts of it get absorbed by corruption and will improvements are never made because bad shit is a source of income.


2e493e No.11180

>>9174

If you think the wall is in any way a thing that might ever become real, you are pretty stupid. Any wall that gets made will certainly not be made by mexico. Unless the US pays for it, which would be an even more stupid thing to do than to build it themselves because they would be funding jobs in another country. A wall is also not going to stop many immigrants. Many of them already cross rivers and what not to get in, a wall isn't going to stop them any bit more.

This is the main problem I have with Trump, he is a voice for the concerns of many people, but he isn't the solution. Its good that he exists because that means those concerns get extra attention, but I doubt he will provide a realistic solution to any of them.

What I get even less is how many people are pro Trump, but will try to make Bernie look bad. Even if Trump gets party nominee (which is likely), its still not very likely he would get president. If Trump is party nominee, it is very likely that the democratic candidate will become the president, just because Trump being just that bit too "extreme" for more moderate voters. If that is the case, for all those flaming Bernie, please fucking think about the alternative. If fucking Clinton wins, that would be horrible. She is so fucking extremely establishment. Her track record on pretty much anything is horrible. She is just all around scum. Trump and Bernie have a lot more in common than Hillary and either of them. Sure, few of the things they promise are anywhere near equal, they are both non establishment candidates. They are both the only possible chance of any change. For better or for worse, but at least not the last 20+ years repeated.


4e5040 No.11219

hhuh


471aa7 No.11242

File: 1457629787333.jpg (64.94 KB, 960x640, 3:2, israel west bank wall.jpg)

>>11180

> If you think the wall is in any way a thing that might ever become real, you are pretty stupid.

Parochialism is not a virtue.




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