[ home / board list / faq / random / create / bans / search / manage / irc ] [ ]

/sci/ - Science and Mathematics

Spending thousands of dollars on useless labs since 2014.

Catalog

8chan Bitcoin address: 1NpQaXqmCBji6gfX8UgaQEmEstvVY7U32C
The next generation of Infinity is here (discussion) (contribute)
A message from @CodeMonkeyZ, 2ch lead developer: "How Hiroyuki Nishimura will sell 4chan data"
Name
Email
Subject
Comment *
File
* = required field[▶ Show post options & limits]
Confused? See the FAQ.
Embed
(replaces files and can be used instead)
Options
dicesidesmodifier
Password (For file and post deletion.)

Allowed file types:jpg, jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, swf, pdf
Max filesize is 8 MB.
Max image dimensions are 10000 x 10000.
You may upload 5 per post.


Oh, hey. We're actually having old posts pruned now.

File: 1428887639711.jpg (8.75 KB, 175x215, 35:43, Gilbert_Ling_(Younger).jpg)

 No.2091

The membrane-pump model has been scientifically disproven over 50 years ago. Why do so many biologists still use it? Dr. Gilbert Ling's association-induction hypothesis is an alternative grand unified theory of cell physiology without any metaphysical pumps or lipid layers. Dr. Raymond Damadian adopted the AI hypothesis and used it to invent MRI. Even more real innovation could happen if scientists stopped clinging to this dogma.

I've posted something like this several times, and I have yet to get a convincing response. 90% of the responses are:
>You're so stupid
>Go read a book
>You must be a troll

Occasionally someone actually provides an intelligent response, but I have yet to see one that was convincing. People have claimed that freeze fracturing and osmium tetroxide prove the existence of the lipid membrane, but I researched each and found that neither of them do.

It just seems like the lipid membrane was suggested, then everyone just assumed it was true and never bothered to verify it. Now everything is interpreted in that context. Meanwhile, evidence that appears to contradict the lipid membrane model (like Gilbert Ling's entire life's work) is just ignored.

Responses like "There are literally thousands of published articles that deal with this subject" don't really prove anything. 100 years ago, you could have said the same thing about the luminiferous ether, which turned out to be false.

 No.2094

File: 1428903876601.jpg (486.13 KB, 800x508, 200:127, sodium-potassium pump.jpg)

>The membrane-pump model has been scientifically disproven over 50 years ago.
So disprove it then.

 No.2095

>>2094
For over a century, people have suggested that cells are enclosed in an oily membrane, because there are higher or lower concentrations of many water-soluble substances inside cells, than in the blood, lymph, and other extracellular fluids, and the idea of a membrane was invoked (W. Pfeffer, 1877; E. Overton, 1895, 1902) to explain how that difference can persist. (By 1904, the idea of a membrane largely made of lecithin was made ludicrous by A. Nathansohn's observation that water-soaked lecithin loses its oily property, and becomes very hydrophilic; the membrane was supposed to exclude water-soluble molecules while admitting oil-soluble molecules.)

Inside the cell membrane, the cell substance was seen as a watery solution. Biochemistry, as a profession, was strongly based on the assumption that, when a tissue is ground up in water, the dilute extract closely reflects the conditions that existed in the living cell. Around 1970, when I tried to talk to biochemists about ways to study the chemistry of cells that would more closely reflected the living state, a typical response was that the idea was ridiculous, because it questioned the existence of biochemistry itself as a meaningful science.. But since then, there has been a progressive recognition that organization is more important in the life of a cell than had been recognized by traditional biochemistry. Still, many biochemists thoughtlessly identify the chemistry of the living cell with their study of the water-soluble enzymes, and relegate the insoluble residue of the cell to "membrane-associated proteins" or, less traditionally, to "structural proteins." It has been several decades since the structural/contractile protein of muscle was found to be an enzyme, an ATPase, but the idea that the cell itself is a sort of watery solution, in which the water-soluble enzymes float, randomly mingling with dissolved salts, sugars, etc., persists, and makes the idea of a semipermeable membrane seem necessary, to separate a "watery internal phase" from the watery external phase. Physical chemists have no trouble with the fact that a moist protein can absorb oil as well as water, and the concept that even water-soluble enzymes have oil-loving interiors is well established. If that physical-chemical information had existed in Overton's time, there would have been no urge to postulate an oily membrane around cells, to allow substances to pass into them, in proportion to their solubility in oil.

Because biochemists like to study their enzymes in watery test-tube solutions, they find it easy to think of the cell-substance as a watery solution. With that belief, it is natural that they prefer to think of the primeval ocean as where life originated. Their definitions of chemical reactions and equilibria in the water-phase (and by extension in cells) ignore the alternative reactions and equilibria that would occur in an environment in which ordinary water was not the dominant medium. By this failure to consider the alternatives, they have created some problems that are hard to explain. For example, the polymerization of amino acids into protein is energetically expensive in water, but it is spontaneous in a relatively dry environment, and this spontaneous reaction creates non-random structures with the capacity for building larger structures, with stainable bilayer "membranes," and with catalytic action. (Sidney Fox, 1965, 1973.) Similarly, the problem of ATP synthesis essentially disappears when it is considered in an environment that controls water. The scientific basis for the origin of life in a "primeval soup" never really existed, and more people are now expressing their scepticism. However, biochemists have their commitments:

 No.2181

bump


 No.2182

>90% of the responses are:

>have their commitments:

Maybe if you didn't just copy paste unholy walls of text people would actually listen to you.

I'm not going to read a wall of text copy pasta from yet another niggerfaggot who thinks he's smart by doing so.


 No.2183

>>2181

>bumping in /sci/

>>2095

and?


 No.2193

What exactly are you trying to say? That the lipid bilayer literally does not exist? Then what keeps the cytoplasm from just leaking out?

Are you trying to say that the boundary is protein, and oil just happens to be attracted to it? How does that matter? Why does trypsin not lyse cells?

What about labeling the membrane with oily dyes and doing microscopy? What about cell fusion?

I like the idea of disproving such a central concept but you have to propose some alternative explanation first.




[Return][Go to top][Catalog][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[]
[ home / board list / faq / random / create / bans / search / manage / irc ] [ ]