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File: ecc93e553d32d96⋯.jpg (16.07 KB, 416x234, 16:9, pipewire.jpg)

 No.850443

After all the shit design, shit implementations, and broken audio involved with PulseAudio, they're just gonna be starting over from scratch anyway, and now we're gonna have this new shit called Pipewire

Not even fucking kidding.

https://pipewire.org/

 No.850445

>>850443

Is it Lennartware©?


 No.850449

>aims to handle video input and output, while complimenting Wayland

>output video

This is the most cancerous 'fix' for sound on Linux yet. Can't the just port sndiod and call it quits?


 No.850450

>>850443

Isn't this basically gstreamer?


 No.850453

>>850445

afaik it's not made by Poettering himself, but it's a Redhat project.

>>850450

I think it's a weird combination of gstreamer, PulseAudio, and JACK.

To be honest, i'm not entirely against the idea of bringing PulseAudio and JACK together, but why in the fuck does video have to be involved now?


 No.850456

>>850445

>PipeWire is Free Software and is developed in the open. It was created by Wim Taymans, Principal Engineer at Red Hat and co-creator of the GStreamer multimedia framework.

Wim Taymans sounds like a white background character in a Japanese video game.


 No.850458

fuck. this. gay. earth.


 No.850460

>>850453

Containers, apparently. Forwarding X and audio from containers without compromising security is not entirely trivial, this could make things easier. Imagine using higher-risk stuff like internet browser from secure container with no hassle. Seeing as it's redhat working on it, I'm afraid it's gonna be botched, but since it's not Mr. L. working on it, it might just not end up being shit.


 No.850464

>>850460

>Seeing as it's redhat working on it, I'm afraid it's gonna be botched, but since it's not Mr. L. working on it, it might just not end up being shit.

yeah redhat's usually shit, but occasionally has a good idea or two, like libvirt.


 No.850465

>>850453

> but why in the fuck does video have to be involved now?

Gota get that extra Red Hat vendor lock in.


 No.850466

Why does it keep mentioning "flatpak" when I look this up? wtf are red hat up to?


 No.850467

>>850464

I'd say if they pick up the difficult parts from jack, there's a chance it will actually be the rare case when it's gonna be widespread thanks to being good as opposed to being widespread thanks to being not-quite-as-bad-or-user-unfriendly-as-everything-else.


 No.850468

>>850466

Disclaimer: I'm probably wrong on some of this.

Flatpak is a new application distribution format they're making that will allow for the easier management of desktop apps.

For example, you get Chrome as a flatpak, and it will be in a sandboxed container with all the dependencies bundled.

I think it's supposed to be like how proprietary Windows and Mac software comes with all the libraries and shit it needs bundled with it.

I guess their plan is for this new pipewire system to be able to more effectively handle sound and video coming to/from these sandboxes.


 No.850473

You posted this thread on halfchan, too. Are you a fucking retard? This has been common knowledge for literally years.


 No.850475

>>850468

>I think it's supposed to be like how proprietary Wangblows and Mac software comes with all the libraries and shit it needs bundled with it.

Yes, MacOS ``apps'' are actually folders, which is easier for the layman to wrap their head around when downloading consumer software.

>I guess their plan is for this new pipewire system to be able to more effectively handle sound and video coming to/from these sandboxes.

That is not the reason why pipewire exists.


 No.850476

>>850473

It's new to me, and it would appear that i'm not the only one.


 No.850478

>>850476

Check the archive before you make another retarded thread.


 No.850480

File: 8d0f315f1a1f5b5⋯.jpg (196.91 KB, 1679x937, 1679:937, mad.jpg)


 No.850496

>>850475

>>I guess their plan is for this new pipewire system to be able to more effectively handle sound and video coming to/from these sandboxes.

>That is not the reason why pipewire exists.

Yes it literally is. A major motivation for PipeWire was an abstraction layer so that sandboxed applications didn't have to be aware of audio or video drivers... which means interfacing with libGL to avoid multi-vendor hell on the Flatpak side.


 No.850505

>>850496

Oh great we don't even have pipeware yet and there are already pipeware shills.

All hail pipeware, pulse was good but pipeware's the future right?


 No.850507

>>850445

This is exactly what I wanted to ask.

also looked at the github issues and it seems like the devs are not clinically retarded like lennart is, they actually seem to take issues into consideration and act upon them instead of EWONTFIXing everything.

Overall, mite b cul/10. A replacement for pulseaudio is long overdue, I've been on alsa for a while now since pulse has shit audio quality and still bugs out to this day. But the lack of per-application sound control is pretty annoying.


 No.850509

>>850507

Good point. Without Lennart in the picture, this might actually not suck as much.


 No.850512

>>850445

>>850443

is he someone's retarded nephew at redhat? they need to get rid of him


 No.850514

>>850449

this

you can use sndio on linux, but you have to recompile most of stuff to support it but it's not always possible


 No.850517

File: fc7a87cf456c05e⋯.png (29.55 KB, 200x193, 200:193, just werks.png)

Why is pulse audio so bad? I've never had any issues with it


 No.850524

File: 6f17fe6c2796a7e⋯.png (275.86 KB, 1051x1920, 1051:1920, needtoleave.png)


 No.850550

File: 475d82de196cfd3⋯.jpg (95.89 KB, 600x672, 25:28, white.jpg)

File: 45dd8d477e62881⋯.jpg (72.23 KB, 1024x768, 4:3, white2.jpg)

>>850456

>Wim Taymans sounds like a white background character

i wouldn't say white, i think he's spanish.

"Belgian national based in Barcelona, Spain"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Taymans

Belgian national doesn't mean anything since none of the EU countries have borders anymore.

There isn't much on him, he had social media at some point but hasn't updated any of them in 5+ years, he appears to have abandoned them but left them up.


 No.850556

File: 67cabc8775434d8⋯.jpeg (123.18 KB, 1024x678, 512:339, Lennart_poettering.jpeg)

>>850509

Don't worry. He will integrate it in to GNU/systemd


 No.850560

So is this going to be good, or a monkey paw?

>>850517

Can't say the same for me, unfortunately


 No.850568

>>850517

So is the case for most people.

There are legitimate cases to be made against PulseAudio. There are some circumstances were Jack or even ALSA is better; but most of the criticism on *chan boils down to:

>muh UNIX way (even though the operating system is literally called GNU is Not Unix)

>it didn't work on my Arch install and wrapping my head around sound in GNU/Linux was too difficult so I decided to uninstall it instead of trying to fix it (even though the point of Pulse is to make it easier for the end user and the point of Arch is to be a clusterfuck)

>a bunch of buzzwords and memes thrown together

For most case scenarios Pulse is good and works good.


 No.850572

>>850550

>Belgian national doesn't mean anything since none of the EU countries have borders anymore

Each country still requires visas to stay in. The "free movement" is about not having to wank off at the border with all of it's kinds of arbitrary waits, checks, and regulations.


 No.850580

>>850568

>For most case scenarios Pulse is good and works good.

lennart pls go


 No.850583

File: a05d14dacb2e8ef⋯.png (15.1 KB, 300x100, 3:1, a05d14dacb2e8ef07e8d51b7f8….png)

>>850517

Pulseaudio has always worked on my machines I used in on too. But it uses like 1-4% proccessing power when idle, which is literally more then my web browser. So I switched to entirely ALSA to avoid the botnet.

>>850443

>Pipewire

It's a fucking botnet. This is because it is abstracting pulse, alsa, OSS, opengl pre 3 and post 3, DRI2/3, Glamor, KMS, and fucking whatever openbsd/freebsd uses. It's also made by redhat. They would have to design it to be modular so you could compile out what you don't need to abstract per instance. Ontop of the fact that if they are going for wayland usage they are going to have to abstract every wayland compositor's functions which will increase bloat per window manager they support. Also assuming you don't get a won't fix for certain untained by (((them))) wayland compositors.

>>850505

>pulse

>good

Pick one, OSS did what pulseaudio did with the performance of ALSA and still performed better then ALSA.

>>850556

This.

>>850568

Pulseaudio has no usecase now. Use alsa if you need exotic bluetooth audio devices with multiple outputs. If you want software mixing of audio for things like recording and karoke use JACK with alsa. If you want all the features of pulseaudio without download jack for ALSA then install OSS drivers if your audio card is supported by them. I won't deny that pipewire is a step in the right direction for being rid of pulseaudio, but adding video to the mix is only for (((them))) and for vidya.


 No.850585

>>850465

>vendor lock-in

How does that work with an open source project that anyone can use?

>>850568

I'll give one positive case for Pulseaudio: Easy output switching since I have a USB sound card, but some also have HDMI which, frankly, operates like shit with most sound systems.


 No.850592

>>850507

>But the lack of per-application sound control is pretty annoying.

alsa does support that though rtfm.


 No.850597

File: ee7807910b8c961⋯.png (14.51 KB, 829x430, 829:430, Shalom.png)

>>850443

> Oy vey


 No.850601

>>850597

It'd be Shin Kaf, too... ShK. SheKel.


 No.850603

>>850550

"Wim" is a very Dutch/Flemish name, short for Willem (William). "Taymans" too, I think, although I haven't seen it before. "mans" is a common suffix.


 No.850607

>>850443

Can't they just swap to alsa?

It has been working just fine all this time, and pulseaudio itself was just a pile of bloat over it.


 No.850636

There is nothing wrong with putting all software settings into software's directory along with folders instead of evenly smeared configs across /etc, /bin/usr/etc, /usr/etc, /home/user and so on.

There is nothing wrong with supplying software with containerized set of dependencies, on a desktop of course, not an embedded router woth 1mib ROM. Supplying dependencies prevents package management struggles and dependency hell. NixOS is going in the right direction.

However, RedHat are capitalist jews that write shitware to sell their useless (((certificates))) and tech support to end users since selling free software is really pointless with today's broadband speeds, they decided to complicate the software and system administration procedures up to Microsoft's level. See, modern Gnome/systemd distros boot slower than even windows 10 out of the box, not joking, true story.


 No.850642

>>850636

so systemd is the software equivalent of aids, and they sell the drug?


 No.850645

>>850636

>There is nothing wrong with putting all software settings into software's directory along with folders instead of evenly smeared configs across /etc, /bin/usr/etc, /usr/etc, /home/user and so on.

It makes sense in a single user system (Windows (multi user is a hack that shits itself frequently)), but it's better to have global and local configs in a multi-user system (UNIX).


 No.850646

>>850642

Yes, they sell both doctor certificates and recovery programs for the sick.


 No.850648

Why would I need PulseAudio® again?

I mean, doesn't Alsa get the job done regarding audio?


 No.850654

>>850636

If you want Windows, I suggest you fuck off to it.


 No.850657

>>850597

I thought of Hebrew letters when I saw that image, too. What are (((they))) up to?


 No.850658

>>850648

because shitware like firefox might drop alsa support


 No.850662


 No.850672

>>850658

You could always stop using shitware like firefox and use palememe or icecat. Or hell, compile it yourself with only ALSA or OSS support.


 No.850673

>>850645

When was the last time you've seen a "multi-user" "Unix" system being used as multi-user, not an abstraction for single-user application permission control, or a web server that does all the user-management itself? Multi-user systems are the reason we have "cloud" cancer. Multi-user systems are not needed for most computing appliances.


 No.850675

>>850673

This. Multi-user UNIX is a 40 year old concept that belongs to the era when computers were too expensive for individuals to own, necessitating time-sharing systems on a single machine.

The multi-user properties of UNIX have been repurposed as a kind of poor-man's privilege separation, which is a pathetic substitute for appropriate kernel-level access controls and capabilities.

Multi-user OSes on single-user machines are a relic, and it's past time for them to die.


 No.850676

>>850673

sdf.org, 31 years of doing just that


 No.850683

>>850675

More like 50 years old, not 40.

>>850676

SDF has a couple dozen active users, tops, and runs NetBSD. It's the past, not the future, and it's an utterly miniscule representation of internet users, operating system users, computer users, and any other metric you can measure. I'm an ARPA member and even I think it's largely a relic.


 No.850684

>>850658

>firefox

>alsa support

lol


 No.850686

File: 0de6e94184f1f33⋯.jpg (84.29 KB, 448x473, 448:473, 0de6e94184f1f3348ff16cd3be….jpg)

>>850683

>my dad works at nintindo, the post

Proof or get out as a liar without an arguement. Single user is indeed cancer for large organizations and servers. But has its uses in a terminal for plebs. Yet not one person has developed a microkernel OS around such a concept that isn't shit or non-FOSS.


 No.850687

>>850673

Security is critical though, and multi-user lets you do privilege separation. With old 80's computers it didn't matter so much, even without memory protection. Back then you could just power-cycle the machine and return to factory state. Now you have malware that digs into your firmware and hides itself where the OS can't see.

And security has been a big concern on Internet servers since the mid 90's at least, when the buffer overflow exploits became widespread. Cloud shit came much later.


 No.850688

>>850675

OpenBSD makes heavy use of user-level privilege separation, with good results. It also enforces system calls with pledge. You can do both, and every little bit helps.


 No.850699

>>850686

>But has its uses in a terminal for plebs

Like what? I can't think of anything that isn't better handled with something like namespaces.


 No.850709

>>850658

>implying a browser needs to output any sound at all

literally not a bug

there's nothing worth its shit on the internet which has to be listened right in the browser anyway


 No.850786

>>850709

>people should only like what i like

here's the linux community, gents


 No.850798

>>850592

Only through manual specification. So every time you open an application, instead you should wrap it with an alsa sound-source redirection, but only after manually writing to the alsa.conf to add that sound source. You should rtfm instead of being retarded.


 No.850812

>>850798

>It requires manual configuration so therefore doesn't support it

fuck off with this retarded argument.


 No.850934

why don't people just write alsa plugins?


 No.850939

How is it that Microsoft can get away with using the same sound API for 20+ years yet Linux has to have a new one that's total shit every 2-3 years? At this point, why not just admit not having a clue and copy Microsoft's? Putting a real-time buffer in userspace was never going to fucking work and the novelty of watching people try and fail wore off before most of you were born.


 No.850942

>>850673

>When was the last time you've seen a "multi-user" "Unix" system being used as multi-user

Literally today.

http://ltsp.org

https://wiki.x2go.org/

I give my friends unprivileged shells on my colocated Debian system, and since I have x2goserver running, they can even use it as a remote desktop. I've also previously run a telnet/ssh BBS on a Linux system. My record was six simultaneous human users plus me.


 No.850943

>>850812

Since you don't even have a single clue about what you're talking about, you're allowed to not post ever again.


 No.850946

File: 5b3f1e43e364969⋯.png (222.94 KB, 300x464, 75:116, New-Gas-Meter-2.png)

>>850517

the only good think of PulseAudio is pavucontrol, which is useful when you have multiple audio-cards or outputs


 No.850952

>>850443

>Oh yay! Another RedHat project!

Hans, get the gas.


 No.850954

>>850939

i think m$ changed their audio shit around vista.

>why not make a sane decision

that's the opposite of gnu/systemd philosophy anon.


 No.850955

>>850954

There was never a moment on Windows where there was a question of if a browser would have sound after an OS update.


 No.850959

>>850636

Worst part is another superior operating system did this already: Solaris! It lives on today as Illumos kernel and OpenIndiana project. Joyent's SmartOS and SDC is the best FOSS hypervisor and pop-up cloud you can find. Once hardware is installed and wired up, it's only a matter of an hour or two with SDC before you have a live cloud. Solaris Zones were invented about a decade ago, yet Linux is STILL trying to ape them and BSD jails still haven't surpassed them despite jails being the project Sun was motivated to duplicate in Solaris.


 No.850961

SPARC-platform second hand servers are going for cheap on eBay right now. SPARC is the native architecture for Solaris. SPARC also relies on OpenFirmware rather than kiked EFI. Not sure if SPARC was immune to Spectre or Meltdown, but chances are good SPARC and POWER+PowerPC were being that they were independent designs unless they leased rights to Intel's IP to use the vulnerable components.


 No.851009

>>850453

Do you not understand that video is normally correlated to one or more audio streams? They're building inherent support to match video streams to audio streams.


 No.851015

>>851009

THAT IS BLASPHEMY!

Never intermingle your audio and video streams! How unorthodox, I could faint!


 No.851017

>>851015

You missed the point. The streams are not intermingled, they are processed in disparate streams and synchronized in the output presentation.


 No.851049

>>850636

>There is nothing wrong with supplying software with containerized set of dependencies

Have fun trying to secure such a system where no one's maintaining a million copies of a million versions of the same library on your system with a vuln.


 No.851051

Wrong.


 No.851074

>>851049

Done, my system is secure until next time.


 No.851075

>>850453

>but why in the fuck does video have to be involved now?

Remember that RH makes their money from support.


 No.851076

>>851075

So what? What's stopping you from not using this technology?


 No.851077

How the fuck is audio still such a big issue on GNU/Linux? Just fucking work to improve what's already around instead of making a new system every couple of years.


 No.851078

>>850583

>pulseaudio performance

This worried me too.

Every distro I tried it on, it was using 1-5% cpu when completely mute.


 No.851101

>>850657

fuggggg. (captcha beginning: jwh)


 No.851103

=>>850443

just FUCKING REPLACE ALSA


 No.851151

>>851077

If things don't break Red Hat cannot make money.


 No.851164

>>850583

>try oss

>muddled sound (about midway between alsa and pulseaudio)

>can't play sound in webms

fuck that shit. I have no clue how it's possible for a sound system to work but only with specific media formats. Somehow, it's a well-known issue and hasn't been addressed in years though.


 No.851172

>>851103

Why replace something that works just fine?


 No.851174

>>851076

Are you retarded? The entire company business model is built around their product breaking.


 No.851197

>>850550

>i wouldn't say white, i think he's spanish.


 No.851201

>>850939

>why not just admit not having a clue and copy Microsoft's?

I thought Poottering's PulseAudio was meant to copy Microsoft and MacOS's audio? I think he mentioned this at one point.


 No.851213

>>851201

Not Microsoft but Apples high-level audio libraries. Part of the reason why most laymen associate macOS with audio and content creation, because the process on MacOS is easier and more streamlined.


 No.851239

File: af2362dc5b7d5c2⋯.png (61.51 KB, 208x255, 208:255, 1500401990297.png)

>>851213

>systemd was made to be like Apple's init system

>pulseaudio was made to be like Apple's audio system

Hmmmmmmmm


 No.851247

>>851213

Not even remotely close, nor related to any of the technology discussed in this thread.


 No.851249

>>851239

I've also heard systemd being compared to svchost on windows


 No.851258

This the CADT Model in action. (https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html)


 No.851262

>>850517

PulseAudio broke Linux audio for like a decade. After a decade of turd polishing it has finally started to work well. And now they're gonna write another PulseAudio, and break Linux audio for another decade.

What is wrong with these people? Code does not rust, it does not go bad or spoil. Why do that act like it does?


 No.851269

>>850658

Firefox has an sndio backend.


 No.851280


 No.851301

>>851269

>compiling a browser to get audio working

lol there's a reason firecucks is disappearing into irrelevance


 No.851341

>>851164

>muddled sound

With what application? VLC works just fine with it. Same for my audio player.

>can't play sound in webms

That's a lie, its just how you set it up. I can play sound in webm's just fine you faggot. Did you forget to adjust settings under ossmixer? Are you using crapware like firefox with it instead of something else? Do you even have libsalsa set up properly?


 No.851348

Is this the power of Poettering?


 No.851387

>>851301

You also have to compile Linux for it to work. Is Linux disappearing into irrelevance?


 No.851392

>>851387

Linux is so relevant that even the head of the linux foundation doesn't use it.


 No.851434

>>851341

>reality is a lie

Go back to whatever asylum you came from. Try not leaving it this time.


 No.851472

>>850443

I haven't been using Linux for a few years now, but wasn't it only just recently becoming common for distros to come with Pulse instead of ALSA?


 No.851474

>>851472

>I haven't been using Linux for a few years now, but wasn't it only just recently becoming common for distros to come with Pulse instead of ALSA?

Pulse operates on top of--not instead of--ALSA on all of the distros with which I'm familiar.

The answer to your question is no. Fedora started using Pulseaudio as their default sound system in 2007, and Ubuntu did the same in 2008. Fedora and Ubuntu and their derivatives constitute the vast majority of desktop Linux installs.


 No.851503

>>850517

pulseaudio is very much undesirable by my experience

when trying to get a mic working, the mic was not muted, but it still wouldn't pick up sound

after playing with settings, i got the mic to work, but the speakers wouldn't work, which is necessary for dubbing and monitoring dubs

it took me in all less than an hour to eventually get it to read input from the mic and output data to the speakers,

but really what makes pulseaudio stand out on its design philosophy, there is no quit button or quit menu item to select in pavucontrol, so you are dependent either on the close button of your preferred wm or know by experience the common keyboard combination for closing the program


 No.851765

>>851174

Broken window fallacy.


 No.851766

>>851262

No it didn't. Pulseaudio exposed buggy ALSA drivers for like a decade. After a decade of ALSA driver fixing it has finally started to work well for those poor people.


 No.851772

>>851765

You're replying to a descriptive claim, not a normative one.


 No.851773

>>851766

And the number one solution for fixing those buggy ALSA drivers? Uninstall pulseaudio.

really jogs the old noggin.


 No.851774

>>851766

This tbh, stop using alsa and pulseaudio and switch to OSS drivers if your chip is supported.


 No.851777

>>851773

>I put my head in the sand

>the danger has gone away

Is this your solution to running out of gas, just walk away from the car


 No.851778

>>851777

>my gasoline isn't broken it just revealed a hidden bug in your engine that no other gasoline could reveal

>hell you should be thanking me for breaking your car


 No.851780

>>851778

>>851777

Who are you quoting?


 No.851783

>>851780

you really must have brain damage


 No.852376

>>850955

yeah. that's sums up the linux sound situation pretty well.


 No.852410

>>851766

I just removed Pulse and went back to ALSA. Feels great.


 No.852676

>>851783

If using false quotes gives me brain damage, I'm filled with brain damage.


 No.853133

>>850453

>but why in the fuck does video have to be involved now?

Wayland is so restrictive you need something like this just to run software like OBS or scrot. It's not "pulseaudio for video", it's DRM for screenscraping.


 No.853311

>>850517

I have never had pulseaudio automatically switch to headphones on a new Linux install


 No.853314

>>853311

You can change it to make the audio go to it without restarting the application. But you can do this same thing in OSS. But I have never had it be fully automatic either.


 No.853321

>>853314

I found you could make it mostly automatic by enabling some weird proprietary HP setting in ALSA


 No.853322

>>853321

>properitary software

>alsa

lul wut nigger? Explain with proof now or get out


 No.853330

>>853322

There's this weird proprietary HP setting from this third party software that you can use to help you configure ALSA that always comes up when you need automatic headphone detection. That's all I know, I'm not really that good at the internals of linux


 No.853484

>nothing works automatically with alsa

>nothing works automatically with oss

>nothing works automatically with pulse

>works automatically with sndiod

realy maeks you think

Stop using shitware and it will just work


 No.853689

>>853311

That was committed recently.


 No.853715

Why is sound still such a clusterfuck on linux? The *BSD's seem to have put this issue to bed years ago.

I may not be able to get video acceleration to work on Open/NetBSD on some rando hardware but the sound always fucking works.


 No.853724

File: 8c554acee45d2d1⋯.jpg (10.68 KB, 240x246, 40:41, LinCux.jpg)

>>853715

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as Cux, is in fact, GNU/Cux, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Cux. Cux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX. Many cucks run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called “Cux”, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU cuckoldry, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Cux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Cux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine’s resources to the cuckoldry processes of our Cucklord, Richard Stallman. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Cux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Cux added, or GNU/Cux. All the so-called “Cux” distributions are really distributions of GNU/Cux.


 No.853726

>>853724

>not using a freebsd kernel with a muslC and busybox userland

GIT GUD


 No.853771

>>853726

FreeBSD may actually be worse than Linux. Say Dragonfly, at least.


 No.853914

>>850961

Second hand sparcs are where it's at. Seriously, 120 bucks will get you a fun hobby rig. Actual usability? Pretty good, just get used to compiling all your stuff. They are loud so make sure you have good fans and a chassis that will fit their proprietary board designs, unless you like the primal screach of 6 40mm fans.


 No.855458

>>851780

>greentext is exclusively for quotation

Go back to facebook.




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