/tes/ - The Elder Scrolls Discussion

>>2188
Like Dark Souls?
Or M&B, which is like an actually balanced version of TES's combat system

I also have messed around with overlapping Ultimate Combat, Requiem, and DUEL, and combined they're pretty decent

But even with Ultimate Combat and Duel disabled, the damage bug persists. I'm actually talking to the mod authors on this one

>>2189
In dark souls, it's pretty much just swords that swing differently and look like a fist, I don't know much about M&B.
What would be cool is if there were more depth to the hand-to-hand system rather than just punching the shit out of people, like dynamic disarming or landing a paralyzing strike after a parry. I hate how in Skyrim they put even less effort into it by just making it raw gauntlet damage, and it's in heavy armor so if you wanted to be a monk hand-to-hand it's literally impossible unless you download mods.

>>2192
>In dark souls, it's pretty much just swords that swing differently and look like a fist

Not really, Spears and polearms are there own class. And the difference in timing/impact for different weapons is actually meaningfully (it really doesn't matter in skyrim that much). Also blocking in DS has a purpose, whereas skyrim you just shrug off damage with health potions/armor and don't really need to block that much

Basically, in Dark souls you have to actually respond to the enemies rather than just run up and mash the attack button like in skyrim.

Also DS you have to account for momentum, since staggering actually pushes you back, and attacks step you forward

>I don't know much about M&B.
A little like TES, but with polearms, horses, parrying, and useful blocking. It's really how TES should feel


Don't get me wrong, I love TES, the combat system for the last two games is just broke as hell

>>2195
I know about DS but my point is that H2H shouldn't be about literally punching your enemy to death with a weapon. A master of H2H should be able to take advantage of the enemy and knock them out or disarm before they even have a chance to get a swing in. Or if you're more of a traditional fighter, just wear them out until they fall down and you can snap their neck.

>>2196
> A master of H2H should be able to take advantage of the enemy and knock them out or disarm before they even have a chance to get a swing in
That's what I generally do.

I think the bush everyone is beating around is that in Skyrim multiple attacks (with the same weapon), even with stagger taken into account, deal about the same amount of damage with each swing. The battle is like a pokemon battle in real time; you take turns dishing blows until somebody is knocked out. The order and specific combination of attacks is trivial.

This is very unlike Dark Souls, where the order of your techniques and the momentum of the fight is what matters, therefor you can defeat enemies way way stronger than you if you use the right attacks in the right order.

>tl;dr: The problem with TES melee battles is that it's basically a contest of who has the highest stats and most potions

>>2197
i could write about how they could overhaul the next TES's combat system but all of these problems stem from the fact that nostalgic gamers are holding back real innovations in the gaming community with their cancerous hug box bullshit.
>Releases TES VI with dynamic combat system like in DS and smoother gameplay; overall better.
Oh wow way to fuck it up Bethesda you cunts 0/10 morrowind best game evar
>Releases TES VI which is just skyrim in a new place with a fresh coat of paint.
"TES VI truly redefines the RPG genre by taking us back to its most solid roots 11/10"
-IGN
And don't even get me started on adding innovation for the sake of adding innovation. The dragon shouts were pretty cool but dropping birth-signs for negligible stat bonuses, H2H, and an entire school of magic is absolutely atrocious.

>>2188
I don't think bethesda is much of a fan of the d&d style monk that can go toe to toe against weapons. Unarmed is more of a brawler thing.

>>2198
Well to be fair I don't see Bethesda ever ramping up the complexity. They want to sell games to Ass Creed fetchers who like to press one button and make 5 enemies drop dead. I hate to say it, but there's money in selling easy games

>>2198
I kinda wonder how complex a melee combat system can be when it's designed for first person. It's a bit hard to have dark souls/monster hunter type dodging like that.

>>2198
Well, Dark Souls combat means useless skill progression. The skill comes from the player alone.
In Morrowind, only little player skill is involved. It is your character who gets good.
So if you'd play The Elder Scrolls VI: Dark Souls "so hardcoar" and master it once, replay value would plummet. Enchantments would be useless.
And then, why is it bad that fans love a series for what defines it? While the combat doesn't appeal to you, lots of people enjoy it.
Why do you guys consider every game which is not frustratingly difficult casual? Okay, you want difficulty. That's fine. I want to get immersed in a great world like Morrowind and see my character progress.
Not every game has to be Dark Souls. Christ.

>>2220
Tru i just thought while skill progression is important, some of the immersion comes from the challenge of fighting an enemy and having to actually think rather than "oh boy this sure is tense because it looks tense but i know i'm gonna win because i have superior potions and shit."
It all comes down to how theatrical a game is, you can put in as many fancy animations as you want but in the end it feels so artificial because there's almost no strategy involved. You can watch an actor become more skilled in a movie and that's ok, but you could become more skilled in a video game become more immersed and then the next time try a different class like a mage or assassin, plenty of replayability in that.

>>2211
I hate this approach
A) TES is basically the only game in it's genre right now, even Witcher 3 is turning out to be more of an instanced game akin to Witcher 2 (not like I have a problem with that but still)
Others devs don't want to compete with Bethesda or whatever, I don't know
So yeah if I want to play openworld fantasy world simulation I have to play TES basically
B) I hate when people pretend that Bethesda doesn't add lore or absolutely doesn't care about lore
Even Oblivion added a lot of metaphysics, Pelinal related everything and Jyggalag

TES combat is fine. Play DS if you want DS combat.

>>2221
I don't really think a "2 hits and you're dead" or a "any small mistake and you're dead" combat system would fit in Elder Scrolls. I always thought of these games as "number games", where mainly your attributes matter.
However, if we look at Oblivion's combat compared to Morrowind's, I'd say Oblivion was taking a step towards a more immersive and challenging combat system.
Like, in Morrowind, it's:
>enemy
>left click over and over
>enemy dead
In Oblivion, it's more like:
>enemy
>enemy type: Melee
>block
>hit x times while he's staggered
>block
>hit x times while he's staggered
>block
>hit x times while he's staggered
>block
>hit x times while he's staggered
>enemy dead
There's already two actions in your hands.
If Oblivion had kept Morrowind's Skills (spear, polearm, etc…) and the three strikes system (stab, slash, something), the combat might actually have become very deep. You'd approach a knight with a halberd differently than a bandit with a dagger.
What I'm saying is: We don't need a Dark Souls type combat or a particularly difficult combat, We just need more deep combat. If Bethesda had build upon Oblivion's combat and added the weapon classes missing from Morrowind, Skyrim might have had an extremely fun and diverse combat system requiring some thinking from the player without being as exhausting as a "one mistake and you're dead"-combat.
Furthermore, It would have been close to the roots, so everyone (except maybe those who just want balls to the walls difficulty) would have been happy.

Just so you know, Todd is here listening, and he likes your ideas. That's why, for the next installation in the TES series, combat will be entirely up to the skill of the player. Therefore, Skills, which are meant to represent the character's skills, will all be scrapped. Thank you all for your valuable input.

>>2246
I don't want DS combat in TES god no
I was just using it as an example of a more complicated combat system that works and adds more challenge to a game, something I personally think TES would benefit from.
>>2247
>>2252
I think skill progression is very important but i also think user interaction is important too. I was wrong by saying it should be mainly skill driven but some thought should be put into combat rather than just numbers on a weapon.

>>2220
>Well, Dark Souls combat means useless skill progression. The skill comes from the player alone.

Bullshit. You need to raise certain stats to adapt to certain enemies
>Bleed resist to fight thieves and capra demon
>poison resist for swamps and sewer
>strength to unlock heavier shields and weapons
etc etc

>>2247
>I don't really think a "2 hits and you're dead" or a "any small mistake and you're dead" combat system would fit in Elder Scrolls. I always thought of these games as "number games", where mainly your attributes matter.

Then they need to make it more /tg/-ish and make it challenging. In skyrim they shower you with high level equipment and free potions in loot

>If Oblivion had kept Morrowind's Skills (spear, polearm, etc…) and the three strikes system (stab, slash, something), the combat might actually have become very deep. You'd approach a knight with a halberd differently than a bandit with a dagger.
>What I'm saying is: We don't need a Dark Souls type combat or a particularly difficult combat, We just need more deep combat. If Bethesda had build upon Oblivion's combat and added the weapon classes missing from Morrowind, Skyrim might have had an extremely fun and diverse combat system requiring some thinking from the player without being as exhausting as a "one mistake and you're dead"-combat.
Furthermore, It would have been close to the roots, so everyone (except maybe those who just want balls to the walls difficulty) would have been happy.

I agree with this

>>2247
This is what I was trying to say in a way that's not retarded, thank you.
I also think this would add some depth to a spellsword, because in Skyrim it's just hold M2 and click M1 and ignore stamina because it only uses it when you shield bash or power attack.

>>2252
I would actually prefer this.

>>2263
Isn't feeling like you've become more skilled (because you actually have) way more immersive than a perk for +50% damage with 1 handed weapons?

>>2265
No, because the point of roleplaying is to play a role, not to play yourself. Your character's Skills represents your character's skills. What you're speaking about isn't immersion, no more than memorizing a Tekken combo is.

>>2278
Well you're not literally role playing as yourself, and whether or not you want to role play as a specific character or "yourself" as a different character in a game is really a matter of preference. If you're roleplaying as an already powerful character then what you said is true; but learning from the ground up while your character also becomes more powerful in the game. It also doesn't have to be 100% skill based, you could get new skills and shit while still getting stronger and doing more damage in general.

>>2278
How about a game that allows for both character improvement AND personal skill improvement

Like Dark Souls

>>2394
how about no
you can solo the game with weakest character if your skill is high enough
Dark Souls is not an RPG in a traditional sense, Skyrim isn't ether
Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind are

>>2407
>you can solo the game with weakest character if your skill is high enough
Same way how you can punch your way through a brick wall, it's possible, but it's not worth it because it's such a fucking grind. It shouldn't be 100% skill based because then it's just a multiplayer game with less variety and restricted to single player.
With a combination between the two it allows you to beat harder enemies faster or even promote different styles of play by altering your base stats.

>>2407

>Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind are

How are they more of traditional RPGs? Wouldn't "traditional" RPGs be turn based/text based autism?

Real time combat was actually invented by JRPGs, and then ported over to WRPGs (ironically enough). All of early TES had real time combat with dice roll gameplay factors added in as a secondary element

>>2418
>Real time combat was actually invented by JRPGs, and then ported over to WRPGs
haaaaa
no

>>2418
>>2420
More specifically I want you to name what JRPG had first real time combat according to you and I will bring one simple example of a WRPG that had it before anyone else