/tes/ - The Elder Scrolls Discussion

>>7418

>Their very first memories brought stasis and change into existence in a previous empty universe, like air rushing in to fill a vacuum

Stasis and change to what, exactly? What is there in the empty void except themselves? If Anu and Padomay are just contingent beings then you haven't answered the main question, only pushed it back. What is the cause of the being of things(A & P included) that endure and change?

In the previous dream, shit happens between three people Proto Anu, Proto Padomay and Proto What's Her Face, the end result of that causes Proto Anu to transcend that existence and begin dreaming a new reality.

The very first thing Proto Anu dreams of in this new reality is a representation of himself, Anu which by virtue of being the very first thing, automatically becomes the very idea of order, stasis, the yard stick for everything else to come to be measured against, "the King".

And since the last things on his mind before he started dreaming, were Proto Padomay and Proto What's Her Face, next he dreams representations of them too. Thus, Padomay is created, and because he is the second thing ever, (and because proto Padomey was a huge s'wit) he is placed as the force of change, the thing forever contrary to the way the universe works, chaos, "the rebel".

The third becomes What's Her Face "the Observer", who just sort of… watches the other two forces butt heads from the sidelines until one way or the other stops watching and becomes deciding factor in the conflict for good or ill.

And from them, everything else was slowly dreamed in existence though often in extremely convoluted and ridiculous ways until the dream eventually creates the being who will dream the *next* dream and start the whole cycle over again.

What is the cause of the being of things(PA, PP, and PWHF included) that endure and change? A seemingly infinite regress of narcoleptics explains nothing.

>>7430

When it comes to the TES universe, you have to realize that mortal actions and behaviors aren't applied to the divine. Instead they are rehashed simulacra of divine concepts.

So, no, the Amaranth is not actually dreaming. Dreaming is just, sort of, the best way to describe it.

>>7430

I assume the russian nesting doll cycle is just suppose to be how the realities propagate. When an organism already exists on an infinite scale, expanding outward is impossible, so it instead has to make more infinities inside itself….

…which sounds like stupid as fuck inception bullshit while sober, hence Kirkbride's substance abuse problems.

>>7431

That isn't true. Mortal actions and behaviors are applied to the divine all the time, and I've yet to see any lore that says "it isn't meant to be taken literally, the proper way to understand them is…"

The second sentence isn't clear. What are the rehashed concepts?

>>7432

I can't speak for the last two, but in the case of classical theism(Platonism, Aristotelianism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism) 'What was before God?" is a silly question since God is eternal, outside of time, therefore there can't be anything before or after Him. Anyway, the problem with the creation myth is that it doesn't explain the how or the why of the existence of the dreamers and their dreaming, leaving the lore radically incomplete. We need a meta-myth.

>>7438

>That isn't true. Mortal actions and behaviors are applied to the divine all the time,

>The second sentence isn't clear. What are the rehashed concepts?

You completely misinterpreted my post. Of course mortal actions can affect gods. What I'm saying is that a god does not use mortal actions, as mortal actions are just a shat out version of god actions. For example, you can't really apply the mortal concepts of sex and murder to Mephala, because the concepts are just a rehash of the imperishable universal law that is Mephala.

>and I've yet to see any lore that says "it isn't meant to be taken literally, the proper way to understand them is…"

The idea that the Dreamer is actually dreaming brings with it the implication that the Dreamer has the capability of waking up. This simply isn't true. The dreamer is, for all intents and purposes, a spiritual big-bang.

>>7442

>mortal actions are just a shat out version of god actions

So its a difference in degree and not in kind? By how much?

>mortal concepts of sex and murder

Molag Bal didn't have sex with vivec?The et'Ada didn't weaken and die while others procreated?

> universal law that is Mephala

Are the gods personal entities or not?

> The dreamer is, for all intents and purposes, a spiritual big-bang

So the "dreamer" isn't even close to being a dreaming thing. Why have the worthless dream metaphor to start with? More importantly, what is the cause of the being of your "spiritual big-bang"?

>>7453

>All I'm saying is that mortal actions are the knock-off brand of the original behaviors of the Et'ada, just like mortals themselves.

Answer the question instead of rewording what you said in the previous post.

>Molag Bal did what Molag Bal does. He is the origin of rape.

So you admit that gods have sex? Good, now explain to me why Mephala can't.

>They needed to procreate because they were mortals.

According to the myth they were still et'Ada.

>being a mind with memories

Memories of things that pre-exist the dream, meaning we're back to seemingly infinite regress of narcoleptics that explains nothing.

>>7454

>Answer the question instead of rewording what you said in the previous post.

I really don't understand the point of your question or its relevance to what I'm saying, hence my reiteration. My point is that gods are just inherently alot more sophisticated than mortals are. By how much, who fucking knows, why does it really matter?

>So you admit that gods have sex?

I admit that Molag Bal is the underlying force behind all rape and domination. I certainly wouldn't equate the events of Sermon 12 to being normal sex, if it should even be called that.

>Good, now explain to me why Mephala can't

Not saying that she necessarily can't, I'm sure she could, maybe, incarnate herself as a mortal. I'm just saying that banging Mephala would be more like banging the idea of sex itself.

>According to the myth they were still et'Ada

And according to the Altmer, they are still Ada, and guess who made that creation myth? Who's to say they're wrong anyways?

The Et'Ada are the original spirits, what exactly entitles an Et'Ada is subjective. However, as long as they are subject to mortality, they are mortals.

>Memories of things that pre-exist the dream, meaning we're back to seemingly infinite regress of narcoleptics that explains nothing.

Well its always possible that the dream Anu came from was truly the first thing. If you're expecting an answer to the question what was the first thing, I doubt we'll ever find out, as it is improbable to believe that there could ever be a first thing. But if you want to say that these Amaranths are all beginning in the same way, than the first thing is always absolute nothingness.

>>7457

> gods are just inherently alot more sophisticated than mortals are

What's stopping the gods from having a more sophisticated way of fucking and murdering? Is it a difference in degree or in kind? By how much?

>banging the idea of sex itself

Ideas and laws aren't mind-dependent beings floating in some void but mind-dependent A posteriori descriptions of regularities in reality. Any talk of some reified Law or Idea of Sex, Murder, Rape, (insert mortal action here) existing before there are any mortals to perform and reflect on them is silly. If Mephala pre-exists and is independent of mortal concepts and actions what was she before there was sex and murder? Whether the gods are actual mind-dependent beings or reified concepts still doesn't explain what the cause of their being is or the being of whatever it is that's "dreaming"

>Well its always possible that the dream Anu came from was truly the first thing.

No, dreams are contingent on the thing dreaming which is itself contingent on the reality that supports the being of the thing capable of dreaming. What is the cause of the being of the first(and all other) thing is the primary question, not what is the first thing. And if the first thing is the dreamer, why did it fall asleep in the first place?

> than the first thing is always absolute nothingness

From nothing, nothing comes.

>>7463

>What's stopping the gods from having a more sophisticated way of fucking and murdering?

That's kind of like what I'm saying, what they do is more than just sex or murder.

>Is it a difference in degree or in kind

I imagine, it could be both. The best word I'd give is incomprehensible.

>By how much?

Are you looking for a fucking number or something? I literally told you in my last post that this question has no answer. Why are you asking it again?

>Any talk of some reified Law or Idea of Sex, Murder, Rape, (insert mortal action here) existing before there are any mortals to perform and reflect on them is silly

This is kind of what I'm saying, this is why I find it hard to believe that Mephala is just the visualization of mortal sex and murder, because she existed before them. Mortal sex and murder had to be re-comprehended concepts taken from Mephala and optimized for mortal use. Before then, I would describe her only as a limit on the universe.

>Whether the gods are actual mind-dependent beings or reified concepts still doesn't explain what the cause of their being is or the being of whatever it is that's "dreaming"

The Ada are concepts whipped out of the Aurbis with the creation of time and space. Before time and space the universe was only something that maybe existed, hence the Grey Maybe. The Ada weren't necessarily created in any set form or design, beyond that of the fact that they needed to exist (because of Anui-El).

>From nothing, nothing comes

No, I'm stating more in the idea that the nothing is the first thing.

I did tell you there was no satisfying answer.

However, did you stop to think that maybe there wasn't a first thing? We are talking about the origin of the universe here, in a setting completely devoid of any laws or limits, including time and space. Implying there was a first thing adds an idea of consecutiveness that may be unable to exist in a world which is completely devoid of any form of continuity or mathematics. It could be argued that, back then, there was no such thing as a beginning.

>>7465

>That's kind of like what I'm saying, what they do is more than just sex or murder.

No, there is a clear difference between a higher form of sex and murder and something more i.e. not sex and murder. Which is it? I can't tell whether you still think sex, murder, death, etc. are only mortal specific or(albeit in a higher way) experienced by the gods too.

Good example:

>The Ada are concepts whipped out

First, the Ada weren't just mere concepts but m-idpt. beings, and second, are you admitting that they(non-mortals) died in a certain sense? This is way I keep asking you whether its a difference in degree or in kind.Are the personal, anthropomorphic descriptions to be taken seriously or not?If not, its hard to imagine how some abstract and impersonal law or equally obscure "limit on the universe" is going to communicate the concepts of sex and murder, since concepts are an internal state of a mind.If the gods and their actions are of a different kind and not similar but at a much higher degree then I don't see how these re-comprehended concepts could cash out as mortal sex and murder. It would be like trying to talk to azathoth.

Fuck it. I'm dropping this argument since it has little to do with the main problem in the OP, whether or not the creation myth is sufficient on its own or needs to be expanded upon to include the cause of the being of the "dreamers", their "dreams", and of the reality that sustains them as they "dream"(it still isn't clear what dream means in this context). It can't be nothing since nothing isn't anything at all. I'm not interested in the existence or nature of a first thing in a temporal sequence but of the cause of the being of anything at all. If existing lore has no answer to this then it is incomplete and the gap needs to be filled.

>>7471

>Which is it? I can't tell whether you still think sex, murder, death, etc. are only mortal specific or(albeit in a higher way) experienced by the gods too

If the terms are generalized, yes, I'm sure there are things gods can do that could be interpreted as sex, and murder; albeit that I can really only think of these actions being primarily applied to divines interfering in mortal affairs (i.e molag bal raping to make a vampire, or herma mora murdering septimus).

However, I believe that, given the fact that Daedric Princes, for example, are pretty much concepts given form, and that they are truly divine beings that we could never fully comprehend, that their actions bare much more weight and meaning in the universe than that of common mortal interaction.

>First, the Ada weren't just mere concepts but m-idpt. beings

The Et'Ada are great big spirits, they were the first things to form in the Aurbis. They do seem to have personalities, however this does not refute the fact that, with their creation, the Aurbis was first introduced to archetypes.

I don't know what m-idpt is supposed to mean

>that they(non-mortals) died in a certain sense?

Death, in TES lore, is literally an illusion. A spirit, as far as we know, can never truly be destroyed. If something has the capability of experiencing death, that thing is a mortal. Mortals are just degenerated chunks of the Et'Ada, given flesh. I really don't feel like explaining the nature of TES death in full right now, but if you want me to I can do it in a different post.

>Are the personal, anthropomorphic descriptions to be taken seriously or not?

Yes, however, you have to realize that beyond your personal encounters that you have with the Daedric Princes, in game, lies the fact that these beings are truly as infinite and incomprehensible as one of Lovecraft's cosmic horrors.

>but of the cause of the being of anything at all

You're asking for an answer to a question philosophers have been pondering since philosophy began.

The idea of something coming from nothing, is all that can be given. You can't say something caused that something, as that implies that something came before, and you can't say that nothing caused that something, because that implies that nothing is something.

>>7485

>If ceasing to exist is included under the definition of death then I don't see why that has to be true absolutely

Well yah, I guess if you want to define death in a more broadened term, sure. But with that mindset, you could also define, Oblivion, Sithis, Padomay, and the Void as death.

>Theoretically, any entity,mortal or divine, that falls short of chim can zero-sum, right?

Any mortal, divines are incapable of achieving CHIM. This is the reason Lorkhan created mortals,

>If the primary dreamer has the power to stop dreaming and do something else then the dream and everything in it, being contingent on his activity, would cease to be

As I said before, this brings along with it the incorrect notion that the dreamer has the capability of waking up.

>If you think this, then you haven't been paying attention to the western tradition from Parmenides onward. Or most of human thought throughout history, since something from nothing doesn't cut it.

If you are telling me that there are actually believable explanations to how a first thing can even come into existence, I want you to show them to me now.

>No, you just have to trace it to an eternal and immutable source that causes and sustains the being of all finite and contingent things

An eternal source that causes being?

So you mean like the driving force of existence?

This is a thing in TES lore.

It's called AE, meaning "Is" in the Ehlnofex language (i.e, the state of being).

AE, existence itself, was the first thing to form out of absolutely nothing (which drives us back to the idea of something coming from nothing).

>>7493

>Oblivion, Sithis, Padomay, and the Void as death

How is a place(Oblivion) and two primal forces(Padomay and Sithis) death?

>divines are incapable of achieving CHIM

Have any lore or dev quotes to back this up?

I've seen people claim this before but never the evidence to support it.

> incorrect notion

How do you know this?

>believable explanations to how a first thing can even come into existence

I've already told you I'm not after a first thing but the cause of the being of all things.

>AE, existence itself, was the first thing to form out of absolutely nothing

If AE is eternal and immutable then it can't arise from nothing(and neither does anything else) since AE always Is. What part of "eternal" and "immutable" don't you understand?

>>7498

>How is a place(Oblivion) and two primal forces(Padomay and Sithis) death?

Because these are all varying versions of the subgradienting concept of non-existence. Mortal death itself, is an echo of Oblivion.

>Have any lore or dev quotes to back this up?

Yes

>CHIM

>This is the third key of Nu-mantia and the secret of how mortals become makers, and makers back to mortals

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/mythic-dawn-commentaries-vol-3

>Simply put, as the Gods cannot know joy as mortals, their creation, so mortals may only understand the joy of Liberty by becoming the progenitors of the models that can make the jump past mortal death

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/loveletter-fifth-era-true-purpose-tamriel

>What is the purpose of the Psijic Endeavor? : To transcend mortal boundaries set in place by immortal rulers. At its simplest, the state of chim provides an escape from all known laws of the divine worlds and the corruptions of the black sea of Oblivion

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/more-psijic-endeavor

>How do you know this?

>Why would such a creature want to wake up? Or even want to control the world? Why would it want to destroy anything?

>This is a misunderstanding of the Godhead's nature

MK

http://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1ye30k/what_would_happen_if_the_godhead_was_awakened/cfjt7gq

>If AE is eternal and immutable then it can't arise from nothing(and neither does anything else) since AE always Is. What part of "eternal" and "immutable" don't you understand?

Well I certainly don't see how AE misrepresents immutable.

As for eternal, I've told you already that time and consecutiveness do not truly exist at the beginning of the universe.

I feel like you just aren't understanding the concept of nothing. I'm talking about the absolute absence of everything, no existence. What I would consider to be the universe, before it was even dreamt.

AE is not something that always Is, that would be Anu, AE is the IS. It could very well be the driving force of the Dream itself.

>>7499

> varying versions of the subgradienting concept of non-existence

Varying versions of the subgradienting concept of non-existence are not themselves non-existence, they are existing things and not merely concepts existing in some mind.

>Yes

No. None of the quotes say that only mortals can reach chim. Explain to me how you get that out of the text.

>MK

Kirkbride is implying that it has no good reason to want to wake up, not that is or isn't capable of doing so. You still haven't shown why it is incorrect to think that it is capable of waking up.

> no existence. What I would consider to be the universe, before it was even dreamt

Obviously, for there to be a dream there has to BE a dreamer who pre-EXISTS his dream. How can there be no existence when Existence(AE) always Is? Being immutable, AE cannot change from nothing to something but must always be. What part of "immutable" don't you understand? Besides, from nothing, nothing comes.

>>7500

>Varying versions of the subgradienting concept of non-existence are not themselves non-existence, they are existing things and not merely concepts existing in some mind.

They align with the idea of non-existence and so does death.

>The echo of the Void is Oblivion. The echo of Oblivion is now mortal death

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/loveletter-fifth-era-true-purpose-tamriel

>No. None of the quotes say that only mortals can reach chim

Alright I'll spoon feed it to you then

>first quote

>This is the third key of Nu-mantia and the secret of how mortals become makers, and makers back to mortals

This quote is explaining how CHIM, well in the context of the commentaries, the first step to CHIM (the tower), is a conduit in which allows for mortals to become divine and makers (the Et'Ada) can become mortals. This will bring be to another point which I'll add a few quotes on.

>The world you stand on is said to be the first attempt at chim. It is also admittedly the most famous. That it was choreographed by Lorkhan and ultimately failed is well-documented, but whether or not this failure was intentional is still disputed.

>And this is the most-reached destination of all that embark upon this road. Why would Lorkhan and his (unwitting?) agents sabotage their experiments with the Tower? Why would he crumble that which he esteems?

>Perhaps he failed so you might know how not to

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/more-psijic-endeavor

Lorkhan created Nirn as an attempt at CHIM, but he knew that it would fail because you needed to be a mortal in order to achieve it. However, it is this failure which, made apparent by the first quote, created mortal life.

>third quote

>What is the purpose of the Psijic Endeavor? : To transcend mortal boundaries set in place by immortal rulers. At its simplest, the state of chim provides an escape from all known laws of the divine worlds and the corruptions of the black sea of Oblivion

The Psijic Endeavor, if you didn't know, is pretty much the process in which you go through with the purpose of achieving CHIM.

Take note of the fact that it mentions breaking through mortal boundaries set in place by immortal rulers (the most recurring concept with CHIM is the idea of jumping past mortal death).

>second quote

>Simply put, as the Gods cannot know joy as mortals, their creation, so mortals may only understand the joy of Liberty by becoming the progenitors of the models that can make the jump past mortal death

Liberty is the entire point of CHIM and states beyond. To be freed of all known laws and limits (which as I explained before, are technically the gods themselves). As stated in the quote, the gods can not no the joy of mortals and, therefore, cannot be liberated through CHIM.

>Kirkbride is implying that it has no good reason to want to wake up, not that is or isn't capable of doing so

The OP of that thread asks what would happen if the dreamer woke up, Kirkbride states that this will never happen ever.

/thread

The Amaranth is completely isolated from everything else but its own mind.

Here's an extra quote on the Amaranth if your not satisfied

>God outside of all else but his own free consciousness, hallucinating for eternity

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/loveletter-fifth-era-true-purpose-tamriel

>Obviously, for there to be a dream there has to BE a dreamer who pre-EXISTS his dream

What word would you use to describe the state before a universe came into existence?

My point being that the idea of what the universe was before it was even dreamt maybe a possible answer to your question ( the nothing literally is nothing).

If you don't know, the reason why I've been bringing up the nothing coming first, is because of this quote.

>First was Void, which became split by AE. Anu and Padomay came next and with their first brush came the Aurbis.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/loveletter-fifth-era-true-purpose-tamriel

But now I'm trying to reinterpret this quote in a manner that fits your question.

The Void, relative to Anu's dream, is the area outside of the Aurbis. In other words, the Void is literally a non-existent place that doesn't exist within Anu's dream.

This makes me think that the Void, relative to the quote, may very well be what was there before the dream even began, because that is nothing (basically, completely irrelevant). Making AE truly the infinte-driving force behind existence.

>>7501

>They align with the idea of non-existence and so does death.

They and the idea of non-existence and death are not themselves non-existence or death.

>The echo of the Void is Oblivion. The echo of Oblivion is now mortal death

Notice how it doesn't say "Void is Oblivion" or vice-versa. Ditto for Oblivion and mortal death. It would be silly to say the Daedric princes live in death since death isn't a place.

>Alright I'll spoon feed it to you then

None of the quotes say that non-mortals can't reach chim and your attempts to tease it out are very debatable.

> he knew that it would fail because you needed to be a mortal in order to achieve it

No, the text merely speculates that "Perhaps he failed so you might know how not to." It doesn't say he failed because he and the other et'Ada were incapable of reaching chim or beyond.

>Simply put, as the Gods cannot know joy as mortals, their creation, so mortals may only understand the joy of Liberty by becoming the progenitors of the models that can make the jump past mortal death

The text says they cannot know joy as mortals do(since they're gods and not mortals), not that they can't know the joy of liberty(chim/amaranth) at all, nor does it say that only mortals can know this.

>To be freed of all known laws and limits (which as I explained before, are technically the gods themselves)

No, they are spiritual beings possesing conciousness and will and not mere mental abstractions.

> Kirkbride states that this will never happen ever

He doesn't say that in either of the two posts, and even if he did it wouldn't matter. To say that the dreamer will never wake up does not entail that the dreamer isn't capable of doing so.

>The Amaranth is completely isolated from everything else but its own mind.

This doesn't mean it isn't capable of waking up from the dream, regardless whether it ever happens or not. You've haven't shown that it is theoretically impossible.

> My point being that the idea of what the universe was before it was even dreamt maybe a possible answer to your question ( the nothing literally is nothing)

That doesn't matter since you still have to account for the existence of the dreamer who pre-exists the dream and the being of the non-dream reality that sustains him.

> what was there before the dream even began

1. the dreamer because nothing can't do anything, let along dream. 2. The reality independent of the dreamer's mind. 3. The cause of the being of this dreamer-independent reality including the primary dreamer and his dreams.

Or were're stuck with the seemingly infinite regress of narcoleptics that doesn't explain anything.

>>7502

>Notice how it doesn't say "Void is Oblivion" or vice-versa. Ditto for Oblivion and mortal death. It would be silly to say the Daedric princes live in death since death isn't a place

My point is that Oblivion pretty much is death if it 'were a place', but that's fine. Let's drop this.

>No, the text merely speculates that "Perhaps he failed so you might know how not to." It doesn't say he failed because he and the other et'Ada were incapable of reaching chim or beyond

Yah, but Kirkbride pretty much confirms this in another text. About the Void Ghost being Lorkhan's doom.

>Void Ghost

>He never really makes sense, does he? I mean, he shows up and says "yo, fucker, I ain't here

>He ran

>Ran from a book he hadn't finished

>To make it short, he's the one that failed so you might not

>But his ghost? That's his doom

>Heart of Lorkhan? He's tied to here no matter if you banished it or not

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/michael-kirkbride-irc-qa-sessions

>The text says they cannot know joy as mortals do(since they're gods and not mortals), not that they can't know the joy of liberty(chim/amaranth) at all, nor does it say that only mortals can know this.

Are you serious?

>Simply put, as the Gods cannot know joy as mortals

Obvious; as the gods are not mortals

>so mortals may only understand the joy of Liberty

mortals may only understand the joy of Liberty

mortals may only understand

You didn't even try to refute the Psijic Endeavor quote.

What is your point in even arguing this anyways? Why are you so adamant on the idea that mortals aren't the only ones who can achieve CHIM?

>No, they are spiritual beings possesing conciousness and will and not mere mental abstractions.

Jesus Christ dude, I said this in my previous posts. They are both.

>With time, various aspects of the Aurbis began to understand their natures and limitations. They took names, like Magnus or Mara or Xen. One of these, Lorkhan, was more of a limit than a nature.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Monomyth

>He doesn't say that in either of the two posts

The guy asks what would happen if it awoke

Krikbride replies with, why would it ever want to?

That's a pretty clear implication that it will never wake up.

>To say that the dreamer will never wake up does not entail that the dreamer isn't capable of doing so.

Alright, go ahead and interpret it like that if you want to.

But seeing as Krikbride implies that it won't awaken.

And the loveletter straight up says that the Amaranth will sleep for all eternity.

I'm going to go ahead and say that the Amaranth will never wake up.

>That doesn't matter since you still have to account for the existence of the dreamer who pre-exists the dream and the being of the non-dream reality that sustains him.

Man, can't we just say that AE is present within all dreams and leave it at that? I mean it is 'existence afterall.

>>7508

> he's the one that failed so you might not

This still doesn't say that he failed because he wasn't capable of achieving it.

>mortals may only understand the joy of Liberty

You left off the rest, "by becoming the progenitors of the models that can make the jump past mortal death."

The text is saying that mortals may only achieve it by doing something specific, not that only mortals can achieve chim.

>You didn't even try to refute the Psijic Endeavor quote.

Because there isn't anything there to refute.

"To transcend mortal boundaries set in place by immortal rulers. At its simplest, the state of chim provides an escape from all known laws of the divine worlds and the corruptions of the black sea of Oblivion."

Nothing in the quote indicates that non-mortals can't reach chim. Its obvious that the Psijics, being mortals, put emphasis on transcending mortal boundaries, but this doesn't reduce chim to that nor does it indicate that mortality is a necessary pre-condition for chim.

Why are you so adamant on the idea that only mortals can achieve chim despite the fact that there is no solid evidence to support it?

>They are both

Add on "but not reducible to or primarily mental abstractions" and I agree with you.

>Man, can't we just say that AE is present within all dreams and leave it at that? I mean it is 'existence afterall.

Nope. You still need to account for the cause of the being of the primary dreamer(godhead, not amaranth) and the being of the reality that sustains him. And why the primary dreamer is dreaming to begin with.

>>7517

>This still doesn't say that he failed because he wasn't capable of achieving it.

My point was that it does prove that he did purposefully fail so that you (mortals) knew how not to.

>The text is saying that mortals may only achieve it by doing something specific, not that only mortals can achieve chim.

Are you a fucking serious?

The "something specific" is literally

jumping past mortal death

You expect immortal and infinite gods to escape something that doesn't even apply to them?

Not to mention the fact that the quote is obviously implying that only mortals are supposed to reach this progenitor state.

>Its obvious that the Psijics, being mortals, put emphasis on transcending mortal boundaries

Funny thing is that the Psijic Endeavor has absolutely nothing to do with the Psijic Order.

The term Psijic is a bastardization of the Ehlnofex word PSJJJJ which is the ever-changing mystery of Padomay.

The rules of the Psijic Endeavor were discovered by Lorkhan than given to Veloth by Boethiah and Mephala so that mortals could achieve it.

>Why are you so adamant on the idea that only mortals can achieve chim despite the fact that there is no solid evidence to support it

Because there is plenty of evidence, you just refuse to accept it.

>Add on "but not reducible to or primarily mental abstractions" and I agree with you.

Sure. They're still archetypes though.

>>7521

>The "something specific" is literally

jumping past mortal death

You expect immortal and infinite gods to escape something that doesn't even apply to them?

Since when was avoiding mortal death the main purpose behind chim? I thought the main purpose was realizing your'e a figment of the godhead's dream yet still asserting your'e self-existence. If that's right then I don't see why non-mortals are barred from it. The only prerequisite being that you exist and posses self-consciousness and freewill, and that isn't mortal-specific.

> Funny thing is that the Psijic Endeavor has absolutely nothing to do with the Psijic Order.

Your'e right, my mistake.

> Because there is plenty of evidence, you just refuse to accept it.

I'm not convinced. Nothing you have quoted demonstrates, beyond any doubt, that mortality is a necessary precondition for chim. If the definition above is right I don't see how it could be.

>>7525

>your'e 3x

Should be your, not your'e.

>>7525

>Since when was avoiding mortal death the main purpose behind chim?

CHIM is the mortal escape from the trap that is the Aurbis. It's purpose is to break free from all laws and limits, the main limit being mortal death.

>You in the Fourth Era have already witnessed many of the attempts at reaching the final subgradient of all AE, that state that exists beyond mortal death. The Numidium. The Endeavor. The Prolix Tower. CHIM. The Enantiomorph. The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man.

>>7528

Quote is from loveletter

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/loveletter-fifth-era-true-purpose-tamriel

>>7528

>CHIM is the mortal escape

This is such a bullshit tactic. You haven't even come close to proving that its theoretically impossible for non-mortals to reach chim, and presupposing this in your definition,before proof, gets you no closer. I disagree that the main purpose is going beyond mortal death, instead i'd say its destroying false consciousness and realizing the true nature of reality while still being able to retain your individuality. Breaking free of all limits, mortal and divine, being the result. I fail to see how that is mortal-specific.

> You in the Fourth Era have already witnessed many of the attempts at reaching the final subgradient of all AE, that state that exists beyond mortal death. The Numidium. The Endeavor. The Prolix Tower. CHIM. The Enantiomorph. The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man.

This quote doesn't support your definition. Notice how it doesn't say these are the only attempts possible nor the only attempts made, but only the least obscure. It emphasizes the fact that chim is a state beyond mortal death, but it doesn't reduce chim to this nor make it the main purpose. And like all the other quotes it still doesn't say that mortality is a necessary precondition. IIRC, wasn't vivec a god when he reached chim?

My argument:

1. Chim is the realization that you are a mere figment of the Godhead's dream yet still asserting your self-existence with a sufficient amount of will and self love.

2. Given the 1st premise, self-consciousness and will are the only necessary preconditions for the possibility of reaching chim.

3. These two properties are not mortal-specific but also shared, in higher and lesser degrees, by(not necessarily all or even most) non-mortals.

4. Therefore, it is theoretically possible for a non-mortal to reach chim.

Whether it ever happens or not is besides the point. I'm also not saying one is more or less capable then the other of doing so.

>>7539

I don't think it's ever been stated a god/daedra can't attain CHIM, they're just unlikely to do so.

It's like Enlightenment in Buddhism… technically a rich nobleman *could* attain that level of spiritual awareness, but a monk/philosopher/priest type person is in a much better position to do so.

Even Vivec didn't manage it till after he lost access to the heart and realized his 'godhood' would slowly ebb away.

>>7539

> wasn't vivec a god when he reached chim?

Whether or not he was ever truly what would be considered an equal to an Et'Ada is arguable. Though even if he was, he was also still capable of viewing the world as a mortal which is made apparent in TES III.

That being said, the normal period in which Vivec is normally pointed to having achieved CHIM was when he first came into contact with the Heart of Lorkhan.

Talos, on the other hand, was known to still be a mortal when he achieved CHIM.

>Chim is the realization that you are a mere figment of the Godhead's dream yet still asserting your self-existence with a sufficient amount of will and self love.

That's the Tower

>Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say “I”. The “I” is the Tower.

The beginning step to reaching CHIM.

>Given the 1st premise, self-consciousness and will are the only necessary preconditions for the possibility of reaching chim

This brings us back to one of the main advantages mortals have over deities, self-awareness. The Et'Ada, being infinite and eternal aspects of the Aurbis, had trouble seeing where their own selves began and ended, in other words, they could not even know themselves, and thus lacked the ability to differentiate themselves from the Aurbis.

This is, more or less, the whole point of creation, and this is how Lorkhan sold the idea of Mundus. He promised that with Nirn created, the souls of the Et'Ada would be able to self-reflect on every aspect of their being and know their true self.

>Anu encompassed, and encompasses, all things. So that he might know himself he created Anuiel, his soul and the soul of all things. Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself.

>He outlined a plan to create a soul for the Aurbis, a place where the aspects of aspects might even be allowed to self-reflect. He gained many followers; even Auriel, when told he would become the king of the new world, agreed to help Lorkhan. So they created the Mundus, where their own aspects might live, and became the et'Ada.

This lack of ability for the Et'Ada to view their own limitations and point out their entirety within the Aurbis is why they cannot achieve CHIM.

>>7541

Forgot to add references again

>first quote

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tower

>second quote

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Monomyth

>>7541

>This brings us back to one of the main advantages mortals have over deities, self-awareness. The Et'Ada, being infinite and eternal aspects of the Aurbis, had trouble seeing where their own selves began and ended, in other words, they could not even know themselves, and thus lacked the ability to differentiate themselves from the Aurbis.

This is, more or less, the whole point of creation, and this is how Lorkhan sold the idea of Mundus. He promised that with Nirn created, the souls of the Et'Ada would be able to self-reflect on every aspect of their being and know their true self.

According to the same myth some were already capable of self-reflection before mundus:

With time, various aspects of the Aurbis began to understand their natures and limitations. They took names, like Magnus or Mara or Xen.

This shows they were improving with time. Subtract Lorkhan and mundus and extend this phase indefinatly and whose to say where it caps? Lorkhan was an et'Ada and he had enough self awareness to know the truth about the wheel and attempt chim. Whatever stopped him(fear of zero-sum?) wasn't due to a lack of self-consciousness. This also doesn't account for the daedric princes , who definitely they don't seem to lack self-consciousness.

>>7543

>According to the same myth some were already capable of self-reflection before mundus:

Yes they were capable, but not very, hence why they agreed to build Mundus. Self awareness grows with each subgradient.

>Lorkhan was an et'Ada and he had enough self awareness to know the truth about the wheel and attempt chim

Et'Ada do have the capability to know the truth of the wheel, as seen with the Three Good Daedra and Molag Bal, and attempt CHIM, like Lorkhan, but they can not succeed.

>Whatever stopped him(fear of zero-sum?) wasn't due to a lack of self-consciousness

Nothing stopped him, he attempted it and failed.

It seems apparent that Zero-Sum is not something truly applicable to the Et'Ada, as can be seen by the fact that Lorkhan still exists in the universe as the Void Ghost and sometimes Shezarrines.

>This also doesn't account for the daedric princes , who definitely they don't seem to lack self-consciousness

They do know of their own existence of course, but they, like all Et'Ada, have trouble differentiating their virtual limitlessness from the limitlessness of the Aurbis.

>>7544

>>7544

>Yes they were capable, but not very, hence why they agreed to build Mundus. Self awareness grows with each subgradient.

You missed the point. The text shows they were getting better with time without the need for mundus nor does the text imply that it was necessary for their growth, that was lorkhan's lie. I'm not buying the idea that self consciousness grows with each subgradient. Due to their power and age I'd say their capability for introspection should be much greater than most mortals.

>Et'Ada do have the capability to know the truth of the wheel, as seen with the Three Good Daedra and Molag Bal, and attempt CHIM, like Lorkhan, but they can not succeed.

But all 5 are self aware which shows that a lack of it can't be what stops them. You still haven't shown that its theoretically impossible for non-mortals to reach chim.

>Nothing stopped him, he attempted it and failed.

When I said "stopped" I mean stopped from succeeding i.e. whatever caused him to fail. Explain to me why it couldn't have been fear.

>It seems apparent that Zero-Sum is not something truly applicable to the Et'Ada

Nonsense. Their is nothing in the definition of zero-sum that makes it mortal-specific.

>They do know of their own existence of course, but they, like all Et'Ada, have trouble differentiating their virtual limitlessness from the limitlessness of the Aurbis.

Show me solid evidence that all known et'Ada have trouble doing this. And if they do, so what? This still doesn't show that its theoretically impossible for them to reach chim, but maybe more difficult. You admit they have basic self-awareness, and that's all my first premise needs for the argument to work.

>>7546

> I'm not buying the idea that self consciousness grows with each subgradient

The fact that the Et'Ada felt it necessary to build Mundus seems to point otherwise.

>Due to their power and age I'd say their capability for introspection should be much greater than most mortals

Would you say the same for Anu and Anuiel?

>But all 5 are self aware which shows that a lack of it can't be what stops them. You still haven't shown that its theoretically impossible for non-mortals to reach chim

How about you give some evidence of how it is possible for Et'Ada to achieve CHIM. I haven't seen you post a single quote, only just attempt to squeeze out any form of implication that there is a tiny bit of doubt.

>When I said "stopped" I mean stopped from succeeding i.e. whatever caused him to fail. Explain to me why it couldn't have been fear

He failed on purpose

>The Lunar God failed by his own devices, to show the new progeny how they might not

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/loveletter-fifth-era-true-purpose-tamriel

So that new mortal creation would know how not to.

Lorkhan experimented with the Tower and this created mortality.

>The Tower touches all the mantles of Heaven, brother-noviates, and by its apex one can be as he will. More: be as he was and yet changed for all else on that path for those that walk after. This is the third key of Nu-mantia and the secret of how mortals become makers, and makers back to mortals.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/mythic-dawn-commentaries-vol-3

>Nonsense. Their is nothing in the definition of zero-sum that makes it mortal-specific.

Seeing as Lorkhan failed, and he didn't Zero-Sum, I'd say it is certainly mortal specific.

Et'Ada are too important to the universe to completely vanish. Do you honestly think it possible for something as great as space or time to be completely removed from the Aurbis?

>This still doesn't show that its theoretically impossible for them to reach chim, but maybe more difficult

If you can't differentiate yourself from the Aurbis you fail.

>You admit they have basic self-awareness, and that's all my first premise needs for the argument to work

I admit they have basic self-awareness, yes, but that is not all you need. You need to truly be able to look at the entirety of everything and have the will to say that you aren't part of god itself. This requires an extremely powerful ego and knowledge of the self.

>>7547

>The fact that the Et'Ada felt it necessary to build Mundus seems to point otherwise.

How they felt doesn't matter since according to the same myth that wasn't the result. They fell for a lie. Also, the same myth shows that they were gaining self-awareness over time without the need for mundus, with no obvious self-awareness cap in sight. You said that mortal actions are a degenerated form of non-mortal actions a few posts back so why is self-consciousness the exception? If anything, embodiment should hinder, not help, self-consciousness; no sense organs and sense data means less distractions and traps for the mind.

> He failed on purpose

The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Fear of non-existence may have motivated him to fail on purpose.It also gives him the chance to help others afterwards in some form or another.

> Seeing as Lorkhan failed, and he didn't Zero-Sum, I'd say it is certainly mortal specific.

No, what applies for one member of a kind doesn't necessarily apply for all of that kind.

>If you can't differentiate yourself from the Aurbis you fail.

Sure, but according to the myth you quoted, at least mara, magnus, xen, and lorkhan already could differentiate themselves pre-mundus. Seems like the daedric princes and some demiprinces can as well, unless you have evidence to show otherwise.

> I admit they have basic self-awareness, yes, but that is not all you need.

Yes, it is all that I need. Remember, were're talking about the possibility or potentiality to reach chim. Ex. I'm a shitty b-ball player now, but given what I am I have the potentiality to be a good player. I just need to actualize this potential through dedication and practice.An et'Ada may not have the goods to pull it off now, but by virtue of being an entity possessing self-consciousness and will the et'Ada has the potential to reach chim, regardless of whether or not this potentiality is ever actualized.

>Do you honestly think it possible for something as great as space or time to be completely removed from the Aurbis?

No, since space and time aren't spiritual beings that could zero-sum.The et'Ada themselves are a different story.

>>7561

>You said that mortal actions are a degenerated form of non-mortal actions a few posts back so why is self-consciousness the exception?

First off, self-consciousness isn't an action.

Secondly, this is the reason for the creation of mortals, a gradient of existence capable of better understanding itself due to its own limitations.

>If anything, embodiment should hinder, not help, self-consciousness; no sense organs and sense data means less distractions and traps for the mind

How are you supposed to truly know yourself when you are an utterly infinite and ineffable being? The traps are what allow you to look at yourself and say "this is all of me."

>No, what applies for one member of a kind doesn't necessarily apply for all of that kind.

Well that sounds awfully arbitrary.

>Yes, it is all that I need. Remember, were're talking about the possibility or potentiality to reach chim. Ex. I'm a shitty b-ball player now, but given what I am I have the potentiality to be a good player. I just need to actualize this potential through dedication and practice.An et'Ada may not have the goods to pull it off now, but by virtue of being an entity possessing self-consciousness and will the et'Ada has the potential to reach chim, regardless of whether or not this potentiality is ever actualized.

I really don't think this is the case. Lorkhan created mortality as a jumping point to CHIM. I don't believe that the existence of self consciousness is all you need.As it appears to me, you need intricate knowledge of, and experience of, mortal limitations.

>No, since space and time aren't spiritual beings that could zero-sum.The et'Ada themselves are a different story

Space and Time are Lorkhan and Aka respectively. As I said before, the gods, while maintaining personalities, are intricate and important aspects of the universe itself.