/tes/ - The Elder Scrolls Discussion

>Going to an official forum for anything ever.

You're practically asking to get internet AIDS.

Let's discuss it here then.

Personally the fucking Stormcloak racism is the dumbest shit, it's so overblown it's ridiculous.

It's one of the Stormcloak's harsher aspects, yeah, and you should feel free to judge them accordingly for it but don't pretend the Empire is some fucking squeaky clean nation of tolerance and justice here.

The fucking first thing the Imperials try to do in Skyrim is lop your fucking head off just because you had the bad fortune to be near a Stormcloak encampment when they caught your ass hopping borders like a filthy Mexican.

The next thing you see is a fucking TORTURE DUNGEON that has several dead people in it, one of them a mage who doesn't even seem remotely related to the Stormcloaks.

The choice is pretty grey though, both sides have good and bad points. I actually approve Bethesda making it a somewhat difficult choice and the fact that it encourages discussion to this day is a testament to that.

Hopefully we see more cool factions with varying points of contention crop up in Tes 6.

>>8605

When I first played Skyrim, I thought the empire had changed a lot since oblivion and morrowind, considering it's about 200 years later.

With the way people rebelled and acted butthurt I thought the empire was actively oppressing the people of Skyrim, imposing heavy taxes and shit.

Apparently the stormies were just baseless butthurt fetchers.

>>8610

It was? If the mudslime dominion won a war against the states and forced the U.S. government to outlaw Christianity in favor of the Quaran you can damn well bet we wouldn't all be perfectly content. I always side with the Stormcloaks, everything from the offended nature at the loss of their homeland to the retalitory and ingrained racism is exactly how I feel when I think about my city and country.

>>8611

pretty much this

In a general sense I think they really worked hard to try and make the Nords unlikable in the game, and a bit in earlier games too

Daily reminder that Stormcloak victory would ensure the safety of the remaining towers, the existence of humans, and therefore the survival of among others, Redguards.

Both sides are shit.

One is cucked into Oblivion, activetly unravelling mankind at the hands of elf kikes, and even though right by authority, is pretty much butt-fuck useless, and of course, had you grouped in with rebels and tried to have you executed (That fuckign whore though)

And the other is like, the white sabbat, literally in the wrong and right at the same time, but in hndsight and future prospects, utterly fucking fucked.

The only winners of Skyrimjob are the Elves.

You people do realize that if you win the civil war for the stormcloaks, Ulfric will confirm that more legionnaries are on their way and if you win the civil war for Tullius he will not-so-subtly hint at a second great war.

The best way to beat the thalmor, get talos worship back and display nord pride is by staying true to the empire. Ask alvor about it.

>storm cloaks is raysis

This fucking arguement, "racist" is not an arguement, let alone a valid epiteth with meaning.

The Stormcloaks -right or wrong- want Skyrim for themselves, the nords, who hail from skyrim and have made skyrim their own for ages. It's theirs and they want to rule it as they see fit. I have to state the obvious again and again?

What's the fucking racism with that? oh because they make the dunmer live in the slums? well, shit I son, the dunmer and nords are historical enemies but hey, I guess the fact that Solstheim was FREELY handed over to Morrowind doesn't matter.

Shit, If you get refugees you're not going to kick out your own people to make room for the foreig- oh wait that's exactly what's happening in germany right now, they're too concerned with their public image that they are betraying their own kind so long as they aren't called "racist"

It's fucking stupid, really. Hammerfell for the redguards, valenwood for the bosmer, but Skyrim CAN'T belong to the nords 'cause that's raycis

>muh khajiit caravans can't enter cities!

Well, they dont want drugs dealers and pickpockets making matters worse, if you happen to talk to those khajiit you realize most are exconvicts and skooma eaters.

>muh argonian dock-workers!

Argonians are pretty chill but They gotta do what they can get, Nord employers would rather employ nord employees, is that so bad? i bet the same happens in the few civilized spots in argonia.

>>8620

> the best way to display Nord pride is to fight for an Empire

An Empire that doesn't have a proper emperor of the Septim bloodline

An Empire that is on it's knees, and punishing it's own people to prolong itself

An Empire that has banned free worship and speech

An Empire that has already allowed other states to leave, but wont allow Skyrim

Lets face it, if we were talking about the true empire, the progeny of Tiber Septim, it would be no contest. But we are not.

We're talking about the corpse of the real empire being flogged by weak men who did not make the Empire what it was, but still want to reap the benefits they did not earn.

The "Empire" in Skyrim isn't the Empire we know and love from the earlier games, and that is what people conveniently forget.

What is the Empire without the Septim bloodline - nothing.

>>8602

>yeah man, here's my load order of six million mods. btw, they're all anime fetcherry, waifufetcherry, skimpy armors, waifu followers and some mod that make shit really overpowered

Sounds like Nexusforums. They have some great non-waifu mods, but by the name of Talos they sure do attract some omega-male fetchers.

I should probably not even bother bitching about it here seeing as I've been bitching about them in basically every other mod related thread

Also I hate how Thalmors have been protesting chain mail bikinis, because it makes me look like an Thalmor for hating chain mail bikinis as well

>>8639

Chainmail bikinis are kind of canon.

But they all a shit tho.

>>8620

Ulfric doesn't say that. What he actually says is that there are still legionaries camped in Skyrim.

Then he openly says Skyrim and the Aldmeri Dominion will be at war in the future.

All Tullius says is he doesn't trust the Thalmor.

>>8640

I remember Todd Howard (prophet of lies) commenting during the Oblivion development how Bethesda has always been sort of proud they never had any chainmail bikini stuff. The journo guy he was talking to nodded respectfully.

Anyway, I eventually get to play Oblivion. I've rolled a female Altmer, put on chainmail armour, masturbate.

This isn't even bringing up Arena, Daggerfall or Battlespire. Elder Scrolls probably has more chainmail bikinis in its history than any contemporary game.

>>8605

> I actually approve Bethesda making it a somewhat difficult choice and the fact that it encourages discussion to this day is a testament to that

the only difficult part about it is that both sides are boring and completely unlikable; and the "discussions" is everyone just reiterating the same points every time this tired-ass topic comes up.

>>8648

Judging from all the PC pandering in the Fallout 4 trailer we might see Beth going the way of Bioware pretty soon.

Apparently there aren't even any prostitutes in the game, how fucked is that?

>>8650

It's four years old, there's only so many points one can make, but the fact that people still argue about it makes it pretty compelling to me. If you don't think so you can fuck off I guess, I don't care.

>>8651

>but the fact that people still argue about it makes it pretty compelling to me

This. Up until about 4 months ago there were Skyrim/TES threads on /v/ every few days and it would be a shitstorm of arguing over which side was better.

I don't want to compliment Bethesda too much, but people get personal about it.

>>8658

and all you have to do is say the empire was right in pol to derail a thread

>>8659

> derail a /pol/ thread

Let's face it that's not hard to do

>>8661

fun though

>>8659

>/pol/acks invading other boards and comparing in-game events/story/lore/whatever with real-life happenings

People, please put off your trump caps when you're not on /pol/

regards, every-fucking-one

>>8668

nigga what i was pointing out the merits of the civil war questline for fucking with pol

>>8669

not directed to you

sorry sera

Nords are hypocrites. They took land from the Reachmen and don't want to admit, then they start crying about how the the dominion is trying to take Skyrim from them.

Also, what exactly has changed that would help the stormcloaks win a war against the dominion? Without the empires help there's even less of a change of them winning another war. By removing the empire from skyrim, and violating the concordat they're basically shooting themselves in the foot. They'd be better of biding their time and waiting for the empire to regain strength, then go in for round 2 with the dominion.

>>8692

>>8692

>Nords are hypocrites. They took land from the Reachmen and don't want to admit, then they start crying about how the the dominion is trying to take Skyrim from them.

The reachmen? you mean the demon-worshiping, Hag Raven-cavorting Reachmen?

The Reachmen who had no form of centralized government, authority or recognizable civilization Reachmen?

The Reachmen who were cave-dweling savages who never bothered to have an actual claim to anything because they were never recognized by anyone else in all of Tamriel for being an actual People?

The reachmen, who are quite literally worse than orcs. I mean orcs in Skyrim have strongholds and nobody bothers them because they don't bother anyone… those reachmen who are worse than ORSIMER???

The Reachmen Savage, bloody, daedra-worshiping Reachmen? The ones who are little more than blood-lusty bandits?

Yeah, No, sorry that argument doesn't fly anywhere. Not In videogames, not in real life.

>Muh forsworn dindu nuffin they was gud boy, goin to hircine shrines every day, bout to get theys lifes back on track. need mo septims for them goat pelts.

I bet you also think American Natives were an actual thing.

>>8694

>Muh forsworn dindu nuffin they was gud boy, goin to hircine shrines every day, bout to get theys lifes back on track. need mo septims for them goat pelts

The reachmen are fucking scum but so are you

>>>/pol/

>>8699

fuck off back to reddit/tumblr if that triggers you so much, princess.

>>8700

>people who aren't tinfoil fetchers are social justice warrior jewish shills!

nice dubs tho

Well this escalated quickly, name calling and other accusations aside I'm going to have to disagree with the "nords are Hippocrates" line basically because as someone elase pointed out earlier the reachmen/forsworn are complete scum, and it isn't really their native region - how could it be when bretons evolved from nords - by definition nords must have been there first.

Would you really think the right thing to for the Nords would be to abandon the Reach and let the Forsworn kill everyone (see the end of the cidhna mine quest), worship hagravens and all the rest of the depraved shit they get up to?

They're just as bad as falmer or goblins in cyrodil.

A point I made earlier in this thread that really swings it (for me at least) is that the "empire" that is fighting in Skyrim really is not the Empire we grew up with and fought for in the earlier games, the Emperor is some colovian warlord who doesn't even have the septim blood, and it's just clinging on to life.

To all of the imperial fans I ask you this - are you really fighting to keep titus mede as the emperor of as much of tamriel as he can keep hold of?

Do you really think the empire you fight for in Skyrim has anything in common with the Empire we all fought for gladly in ES3&4?

It isn't the empire anymore, it's like the pretending the Holy Roman Empire (basically a bunch of German states) is the actual Roman Empire because it vaguely has the same name and you could sort of argue one evolved into the other.

>>8705

The way I see it, the empire still provides stability and trade like it always has, even if it's not impressive and strong anymore.

I wouldn't mind if the empire fell (would be a shame though) but I still join the empire so that the aldmeri dominion can be beat. Empire can fall apart after that.

>>8707

>heath ledger amused

What? That's fucking Jake Gyllenhaal.

My opinion is mildly multifaceted on this:

On the one hand, I agree that the Mede Empire is not the same as the Septim Empire, it simply isn't. Septim's Empire was the third, and this empire, no matter how much they like to pretend otherwise, is the fourth.

And to look at this 4th empire, we have to consider their history- they started with a Colovian warlord, and they've been fighting a losing war since they began, with the Thalmor inciting riots in Black Marsh, convincing the Khajiit to secede, going as far as to march INTO the Imperial heartland and practically raze it. The Mede emperors do not have that same charmed cunning and charisma that the old Septims had, and they can barely hold the territory they have now.

That said, the Stormcloaks want Skyrim for the Nords and their culture and values- fair enough, that's a reasonable thing to want. And it seems to me, on the Imperial side of things in Skyrim, they tend to pick and choose which "customs of our fathers" they choose to acknowledge- for example, they acknowledge Elisif's right as a Jarl/Queen in Torygg's stead, but Ulfric's right as High King by virtue of single combat? Totally illegitimate, here, talk to this Imperial Captain…

Now, that said here's another thing- assuming the Empire didn't give as good as it got (which I think is the case), and Skyrim secedes? That gives the Thalmor plenty justification to march in and destroy what is considered the "heart" of the races of Men (since the Nords are still largely related to the Atmorans, as I recall)- because let's face it, the Imperials are willing to bend over for the Thalmor (meanwhile going "How can we fuck these guys?" behind their back), the Bretons don't seem to give a shit, and the Redguards are doing their thing in the desert. And I'm not sure Skyrim, assuming the Dominion is at full strength, could take them on.

Now, here's the thing with the Thalmor- I have a strong suspicion that they won the Great War, but only barely. I don't think that they are as strong as they put on- there's a Talos shrine near Riverwood where you can go find a dead Thalmor, bearing a note that mentions "Look, don't bother with that region, we haven't found anything and we're fucking stretched thin as it is.". Which implies to me that, if the Thalmor could, the entirety of Skyrim would be crawling with the bastards. But they can't. Why? Maybe they got fucked more in the Great War than they like to admit. They also seem to imply that what they tried to do with Ulfric is either not working, or working too damn well, and it scares them.

>>8699

>The reachmen are fucking scum but so are you

Why? because The truth hurts and your pansy little milk-drinker's "view" conflics so much that you're all sore?

First of, we're talking Vydia here, if drawing a small parable (barely counts as one) between a vidya and IRL hurts your sensibilities so much, then you probably have a lot of reassesing to do; so cut the buthurt.

>>8705

>I'm going to have to disagree with the "nords are Hippocrates" line basically because as someone elase pointed out earlier the reachmen/forsworn are complete scum, and it isn't really their native region - how could it be when bretons evolved from nords - by definition nords must have been there first.

Abso-fucking-lutely, don't know why I failed to mention this in my own post. Let me answer in some sort of meta-roleplay fashion here:

The thing that we're trying to say here is that there is absolutely no valid argument AGAINST Stormcloak claim for a free skyrim, and no ammount of "muh feels", "muh IRL leftist values applied to fiction!" will ever change that fact.

You still support the empire? Well you're entitled to, there are several valid claims even *I* can make to support the Empire, but trying to discredit the Nords' struggle to break away using the same old tired buzzwords is being intellectually dishonest and appealing to a number of falacies.

>>8717

Someone with insight, what a miracle.

The reason there's only some thalmor in Skyrim (and not the Dominion army, of which a part is stationed in southern Cyrodiil if I'm not mistaken) is unusually enough because of the White-Gold concordat.

If you do some reading into the great war, you'll find that Titus Mede surrendered right after the first decisive Imperial victory (cause it was a steamroll before that). They could've pushed all the way back, pulled off a WWII Russia style comeback and won, but it'd be a pyrrhic victory.

Tullius hints at a second great war after Skyrim is stable (AKA ulfric is dead), which is likely considering 30 years have passed, and mankind can bring up a new army while altmer don't breed as quickly…

>>8721

>Tullius hints

And Ulfric States it directly. Nords alone could fuck the thalmor up big time, and it's more than obvious that they WON'T be fighting the thalmor alone.

>>8718

/tes/ is crawling with /pol/-tier vocabulary. Keep that shit where it belongs.

>>8719

Calling people butthurt is 'you mad bro???' for non-preteens.

>small parable

you're embarassing yourself man

>>8723

>>8723

Still waiting here for you to prove me wrong and justify all that anger of yours.

>>8723

>>8723

Still waiting here for you to prove me wrong and justify all that butthurt.

>>8699

>being this salty over an ebin maymay

>>8721

>The reason there's only some thalmor in Skyrim (and not the Dominion army, of which a part is stationed in southern Cyrodiil if I'm not mistaken) is unusually enough because of the White-Gold concordat.

I went and read up on the terms of the Concordat, and everything says that the Thalmor were given free reign in the Imperial provinces to enforce the treaty, including the banning of Talos worship, which still seems to support my "this is the best they can do" theory.

>If you do some reading into the great war, you'll find that Titus Mede surrendered right after the first decisive Imperial victory (cause it was a steamroll before that). They could've pushed all the way back, pulled off a WWII Russia style comeback and won, but it'd be a pyrrhic victory.

I believe it- see the bit about Imperials willing to bend over for the Thalmor, while going "Now, how do I fuck these guys" behind their back.

>Tullius hints at a second great war after Skyrim is stable (AKA ulfric is dead), which is likely considering 30 years have passed, and mankind can bring up a new army while altmer don't breed as quickly…

That's another thing. If the War ended relatively recently, the Altmer are likely still trying to build their forces back up, and considering how strict their breeding it, it's probably going quite slowly. Meanwhile, the races of men have had a full generation go by, so there's a generation of strapping young men (and women) to fight.

>And Ulfric States it directly. Nords alone could fuck the thalmor up big time, and it's more than obvious that they WON'T be fighting the thalmor alone.

This is all assuming that Ulfric's (make no mistake, even though I understand his goal and desires, he threw a fireball into a damn barrel of pitch by doing what he did) civil war doesn't harm the infrastructure of Skyrim, which it almost certainly has.

There would need to be a period of reconstruction and getting people on his side- and it's quite clear from the beginning, the Nordic people are very divided when it comes to Ulfric. And then we have to consider whether or not the Dominion is at full strength- I would imagine not. Even a steamroll victory, you're going to lose people.

But then we have to factor in their client states, Valenwood, Anequina and Pelletine. The Altmer might not breed quickly, but what about Bosmer and Khajiit? It wouldn't be an impossible fight, but neither side would be fighting alone, certainly.

I think the largest reason Skyrim benefits from the Empire is on a trade and infrastructure basis, personally.

>>8723

> /tes/ is crawling with /pol/-tier vocabulary. Keep that shit where it belongs.

He's right, keep that shit to yourselves, it isn't welcome here

>>8722

>nords alone could fuck the thalmor up big time

fucking kek dude

Civil war-torn Skyrim vs. Elsweyr, Alinor and Valenwood

>>8728

>This is all assuming that Ulfric's (make no mistake, even though I understand his goal and desires, he threw a fireball into a damn barrel of pitch by doing what he did) civil war doesn't harm the infrastructure of Skyrim, which it almost certainly has.

Can't disagree here. Ulfric biggest mistake was to kill Torygg, he should have tried putting pressure on the boy. Torygg would have probably agreed to claim independence after a little while (less than the duration of the civil war up until the point Alduin show up at helgen, maybe?). The willing cooperation of certain Jarls would have been gained almost at no cost and the empire would have been cut off from Skyrim almost overnight.

This would have left Nord infrastructure nearly intact, as the imperials would have had to navigate through mostly hostile lands.

>There would need to be a period of reconstruction and getting people on his side- and it's quite clear from the beginning, the Nordic people are very divided when it comes to Ulfric. And then we have to consider whether or not the Dominion is at full strength- I would imagine not. Even a steamroll victory, you're going to lose people.

But then we have to factor in their client states, Valenwood, Anequina and Pelletine. The Altmer might not breed quickly, but what about Bosmer and Khajiit? It wouldn't be an impossible fight, but neither side would be fighting alone, certainly.

Goddamn I always ignore the Khajiit and the Bosmer. however, knowing the Khajiit, no matter how thankful they are towards the aldmer for "restoring the moons", they will most likely NOT throw themselves in hordes against the enemies of the dominion; we also know there is an inside resistance against cooperating further with the thalmor, so that helps.

>I think the largest reason Skyrim benefits from the Empire is on a trade and infrastructure basis, personally.

Dialog seems to imply the Empire is taxing Skyrim heavily and skyrim isn't benefiting much from it.

I said earlier that I had several arguments in favor of the empire, the biggest would be to use the unified imperial resources to Attack the Thalmor and beat 'em to the punch.

My only concern is to defeat the Thalmor and stop them at all cost, it's the only thing that really matters in the end.

So the question is, What's best for defeating Thalmor? The sooner humanity strikes back, the better. And that's not going to happen with the mede empire. why? because it's weakened and impopular, they've allowed the Thalmor to run rampant all across Tamriel and undermine Imperial authority and subvert Imperial culture. It's clear that Dominion gold is also causing an administrative and beaurocratic Jam across the empire as well, cooperation of local rules being bought and all.

Hammerfell broke off and managed to kick the Thalmor the fuck out even though they were already deep in bloody civil war themselves, which is a testament to their military prowess AND the wanning strength of the Dominion. This is fresh in everyone's minds.

So the point is that the weak, corrupted empire cannot drive humanity to war agains the Thalmor in time; it's been 30 years and there's a fresh batch of combat-aged young men and women ready and the empire is just stalling, trying to keep from the inevitable political collapse that will come. The faster the empire disolves (or is bound to Cyrodiil alone) then the faster than the War begin.

>>8731

It was a poor choise of words, what I wanted to say was that the Nords were a threat, however I didn't want it to make it sound like they could defeat the Dominion by themselves

This is obvious when you realize that the Thalmor benefit from the continued civil war and are not hoping for either side to come out as a clear victor any time soon.

>>8728

>This is all assuming that Ulfric's (make no mistake, even though I understand his goal and desires, he threw a fireball into a damn barrel of pitch by doing what he did) civil war doesn't harm the infrastructure of Skyrim, which it almost certainly has.

Can't disagree here. Ulfric biggest mistake was to kill Torygg, he should have tried putting pressure on the boy. Torygg would have probably agreed to claim independence after a little while (less than the duration of the civil war up until the point Alduin show up at helgen, maybe?). The willing cooperation of certain Jarls would have been gained almost at no cost and the empire would have been cut off from Skyrim almost overnight.

This would have left Nord infrastructure nearly intact, as the imperials would have had to navigate through mostly hostile lands.

>There would need to be a period of reconstruction and getting people on his side- and it's quite clear from the beginning, the Nordic people are very divided when it comes to Ulfric. And then we have to consider whether or not the Dominion is at full strength- I would imagine not. Even a steamroll victory, you're going to lose people.

But then we have to factor in their client states, Valenwood, Anequina and Pelletine. The Altmer might not breed quickly, but what about Bosmer and Khajiit? It wouldn't be an impossible fight, but neither side would be fighting alone, certainly.

Goddamn I always ignore the Khajiit and the Bosmer. however, knowing the Khajiit, no matter how thankful they are towards the aldmer for "restoring the moons", they will most likely NOT throw themselves in hordes against the enemies of the dominion; we also know there is an inside resistance against cooperating further with the thalmor, so that helps.

>I think the largest reason Skyrim benefits from the Empire is on a trade and infrastructure basis, personally.

Dialog seems to imply the Empire is taxing Skyrim heavily and skyrim isn't benefiting much from it.

I said earlier that I had several arguments in favor of the empire, the biggest would be to use the unified imperial resources to Attack the Thalmor and beat 'em to the punch.

My only concern is to defeat the Thalmor and stop them at all cost, it's the only thing that really matters in the end.

So the question is, What's best for defeating Thalmor? The sooner humanity strikes back, the better. And that's not going to happen with the mede empire. why? because it's weakened and impopular, they've allowed the Thalmor to run rampant all across Tamriel and undermine Imperial authority and subvert Imperial culture. It's clear that Dominion gold is also causing an administrative and beaurocratic Jam across the empire as well, cooperation of local rules being bought and all.

Hammerfell broke off and managed to kick the Thalmor the fuck out even though they were already deep in bloody civil war themselves, which is a testament to their military prowess AND the wanning strength of the Dominion. This is fresh in everyone's minds.

So the point is that the weak, corrupted empire cannot drive humanity to war agains the Thalmor in time; it's been 30 years and there's a fresh batch of combat-aged young men and women ready and the empire is just stalling, trying to keep from the inevitable political collapse that will come. The faster the empire disolves (or is bound to Cyrodiil alone) then the faster than the War begin.

>>8731

It was a poor choise of words, what I wanted to say was that the Nords were a threat, however I didn't want it to make it sound like they could defeat the Dominion by themselves

This is obvious when you realize that the Thalmor benefit from the continued civil war and are not hoping for either side to come out as a clear victor any time soon.

>>8738

fuck, didn't mean to double post, damn shit.

>>8733

>butthurt assumptions

Privilege and dubs checked.

>>8734

>>8735

Goddamnit Yagrum Bagarn, double posting again?

>>8743

I fucking knew that was going to wordfilter to Yagrum Bagarn kek.

Also: This shit popped up like half an hour later? Resdayn 's fucking acting up weird.

>>8694

Funny cause the elves look at nords in pretty much the same way with Talos.

>>8694

Funny cause the dominion looks at Nords in pretty much the same way.

>>8748

>>8750

And they are objectively wrong though, so it's only funny if you're into semantic back-and-forths.

>>8734

>Can't disagree here. Ulfric biggest mistake was to kill Torygg, he should have tried putting pressure on the boy. Torygg would have probably agreed to claim independence after a little while (less than the duration of the civil war up until the point Alduin show up at helgen, maybe?). The willing cooperation of certain Jarls would have been gained almost at no cost and the empire would have been cut off from Skyrim almost overnight.

>This would have left Nord infrastructure nearly intact, as the imperials would have had to navigate through mostly hostile lands.

Precisely. It could have gone much better, but as several characters state, Ulfric needed/wanted a symbol. He wanted a big, flashy event. So now, if he were to step onto the throne, he'd still have a weakened, and partially resentful Skyrim to contend with, which would make a war effort more difficult.

>Goddamn I always forget about the Khajiit and the Bosmer. however, knowing the Khajiit, no matter how thankful they are towards the Altmer for "restoring the moons", they will most likely NOT throw themselves in hordes against the enemies of the dominion; we also know there is an inside resistance against cooperating further with the thalmor, so that helps, but we're not going to consider them opting out of the fight whatsoever for the obvious reason that one should always expect the worst scenarios and the harshest enemies.

No, but there would be a hearty amount willing to support the Dominion, I'm sure, or the Dominion could apply political pressure. Of course, considering their tendency towards independence (they seem to enjoy doing their own thing), they might attempt to break from the Dominion at some point, should a war break out. It's possible.

>Hammerfell broke off and managed to kick the Thalmor the fuck out even though they were already deep in bloody civil war themselves, which is a testament to their military prowess AND the wanning strength of the Dominion. This is fresh in everyone's minds.

That's the big thing, right there, out of all the other things I've mentioned that indicate the Dominion's on the ropes. The Redguards are good warriors, but you'd think the Dominion would be roasting them alive if they were half as powerful as they claim. It seems quite likely to me that the Dominion demanded gold and peace because it needed a breather, just as much as the Mede Empire did.

>>8702

if you don't like the accusations don't play language police

>>8738

>>8752

I agree pretty strongly with nearly everything you guys have said; the White Gold Concordat helped the Dominion to recover more than the Empire, Thalmor infiltration of the Empire is weakening their future prospect of a successful war etc.

I do disagree on Torygg agreeing with Ulfric though.

Solitude's prosperity, stability of Torygg's kingship & the extravagance of Elisif all being tied into the Empire's favour, it seems likely to me that Torygg would never have seceded or genuinely worked towards it.

IIRC there's only one reference to Torygg being sympathetic to Ulfric and it's by Sybille Stentor. But in her wider conversation she also hints that Ulfric had been hinting at secession for a very long time and Torygg had been stringing him along.

Sybille says something along the lines of Ulfric constantly urging Torygg to secede "in words that bordered on treason" and Torygg's response was always 'tomorrow'

In the description of when Torygg was killed, apparently Sybille and the steward knew why Ulfric was coming to Solitude because he'd been banging on about it for ages. Their response wasn't Torygg announcing secession, it was to try and prevent Ulfric from even entering Solitude to give his challenge- because they knew it would be seen as legitimate by at least some Nords.

And I also think Ulfric killing Torygg damned him in the eyes of others, assuring there was an irreconcilable gap between the Nords.

>>8756

>>8756

>IIRC there's only one reference to Torygg being sympathetic to Ulfric and it's by Sybille Stentor.

I THINK elisif also mentions this but I'm not sure.

>Sybille says something along the lines of Ulfric constantly urging Torygg to secede "in words that bordered on treason" and Torygg's response was always 'tomorrow'

>In the description of when Torygg was killed, apparently Sybille and the steward knew why Ulfric was coming to Solitude because he'd been banging on about it for ages. Their response wasn't Torygg announcing secession, it was to try and prevent Ulfric from even entering Solitude to give his challenge- because they knew it would be seen as legitimate by at least some Nords.

I don't quite recall this, I know I spoke in length with everyone in the blue palace though… However , this being the case, I can see how Ulfric's hand was forced into killing Torygg, maybe he COULD have issued a final warning to Torygg but then again, he probably saw that Torygg wasn't going to agree in the end and probably would have turned on him at the worst possible time had he given him the chance.

This reminds me of Ulfric's attitude when you meet him in Solitude. He's the least fanatic of his own cause in terms of his speech, he seems weary and bringing up Torygg touches a nerve, he's clearly not comfortable with the way things are going, but knows it must be this way, or else…

Damn, now I think I admire the Character even more.

>>8760

Eltryn and Bothela are also chill, proof that they can be civilized.

>>8762

>meet him in Solitude

I meant Windhelm, obviously.

>>8762

Some good points in there, and one point I think you're making, but it's worth clarifying:

I think if you look at how Ulfric plays the civil war - getting the old crown, offering the axe to Balgruuf - he is doing so in the way tradition/culture of the Nords dictates. He is being consistent in his actions with what he is saying about wanting to preserve the old Nordic way of life, which is very much a plus point for me.

And this is also true for when he challenged Torygg - yes he could have possibly achieved secession by other means, but ultimately by not going about it the "right" way - and what I mean by that is the way Nordic culture dictates (challenging Torygg) - rather than doing it the "wrong" way - not acting in accordance with Nordic culture - this is the only way he can make his claims with credibility.

What I am saying is that if he had not acted in the way he did he would be a hypocrite.

>>8764

>And this is also true for when he challenged Torygg - yes he could have possibly achieved secession by other means, but ultimately by not going about it the "right" way - and what I mean by that is the way Nordic culture dictates (challenging Torygg) - rather than doing it the "wrong" way - not acting in accordance with Nordic culture - this is the only way he can make his claims with credibility.

The man has integrity, and fully accepts the bitter-sweetness that comes with doing things the right way.

A true Nord.

B R A V O U L F R I C

>>8756

>I agree pretty strongly with nearly everything you guys have said; the White Gold Concordat helped the Dominion to recover more than the Empire, Thalmor infiltration of the Empire is weakening their future prospect of a successful war etc

This is largely true, and I suspect that's the big reason behind the Concordat. The Dominion knows that they wouldn't be able to win another straight up confrontation in the near future, purely because of the difference in breeding rates, so they're delaying that possibility by bloating and clogging the bureaucracy of the Empire.

This makes me wonder if trying to make Ulfric go all secessionist wasn't just another stalling tactic- they fully intend for him to lose, but he's going to do serious harm to the Empire and Skyrim on the way down.

>I think if you look at how Ulfric plays the civil war - getting the old crown, offering the axe to Balgruuf - he is doing so in the way tradition/culture of the Nords dictates. He is being consistent in his actions with what he is saying about wanting to preserve the old Nordic way of life, which is very much a plus point for me.

I feel what this shows is that he is transparent with what he's doing- "Skyrim for the Nords" is not just talk with him. He doesn't hold outright malice for the other races, but DOES hold a "Nords First" mentality when it comes to the governance of Skyrim.

>>8768

> I feel what this shows is that he is transparent with what he's doing- "Skyrim for the Nords" is not just talk with him. He doesn't hold outright malice for the other races, but DOES hold a "Nords First" mentality when it comes to the governance of Skyrim.

I don't get what you are trying to say here - is it really a revelation to you that someone that want's to rule Skyrim also wants to put the wants and needs of people of Skyrim above the needs of others?

Is it really a revelation that someone who is fighting to secede from the Empire is doing so with the intention of allowing their people to self-govern?

Also I don't quite see your leap from "he wants to preserve and act in accordance with the culture and history of the region" to "he doesn't really care about non-nords". He even says at some point that he has no problem with other races living in Skyrim as long as they are respectful and integrate into the culture.

>>8768

>This makes me wonder if trying to make Ulfric go all secessionist wasn't just another stalling tactic- they fully intend for him to lose, but he's going to do serious harm to the Empire and Skyrim on the way down.

That's absolutely what they had in mind, that's why they tortured him and then released him, they knew he would take it upon himself to try and set things right by causing the rebellion, it's why they call him an asset in the dossier..

It's like we've been saying, the Thalmor benefit from the civil war, but they do not benefit from a clear outcome, the longer the war lasts the better for them, but at the end of the day they still require the empire to win so they can continue to sabotage them and stall the war effort.

Even though a Free skyrim still has to rebuild some and it will be a house divided -politically-, when it comes to fighting the Thalmor, they'll unite once again in a heartbeat. No Imperial Loyalist will refuse to fight the Thalmor, they have this unspoken rage against them and they want to tear them a new s'wit as much as the stormcloaks, if ulfric provides that war, then they'll all march on Alinor and burn it to the ground.

>>8770

I think he meant that people like to judge Ulfric and paint him as the dumb racist guy who just wants power, when his own actions and persona describe a completely different situation.

It shouldn't be a revelation, but the staunchest anti-stormcloaks always fail to see that because they are always judging based on their personal feelings over Nord pride and Ulfric's policies, which -as you stated- are misinterpreted as hatred.

>>8777

Trips speak the truth… I guess?

I'm not seeing ulfric marching through cyrodiil on alinor though

guy's a nut job

>>8770

When I said he doesn't care about non-Nords, I meant, and clearly stated, that he's putting an emphasis on Nordic culture and values, aiming to preserve them, but he holds no out and out malice for other races.

>>8780

I still don't get you meant though - is it supposed to be a revelation that he is doing this?

>>8779

> I'm not seeing ulfric marching through cyrodiil on alinor though

I dunno, I could see some sort of scenario where all the other states just get sick of the Dominion and decide to attack them at the same time, Skyrim included

> guy's a nut job

It's pretty clear from following his comments and actions in the game, inferring his motives and ideals that he isn't a nut-job, at best he is a devout hero of his people, and at worst he is a charismatic nationalist.

But maybe you've picked up on something the rest of us have not - care to share your insights?

>>8784

>at best he is a devout hero of his people, and at worst he is a charismatic nationalist.

So he's bloody great any way you look at it then?

I'd agree with that.

>>8783

Then you're being deliberately obtuse.

What I'm getting at is that most people among the Imperial faction tend to paint Ulfric as this megalomaniac who's in it to sate his own ego. Most players who side with the Empire are liable to agree.

>>8784

Ulfric has been tortured and brainwashed by Elenwen before being released to cause a civil war.

Source: thalmor dossier

>>8798

this

You can see from what he does and says in the campaign that he isn't a "nutjob".

I'd suggest that you're giving the Thalmor far too much credit if you think they could have predicted things like:

> The reach/Markarth getting taken over by the Forswarn

> The Jarl of Markarth then asking specifically Ulfric for help, not the empire or the other holds

> Ulfric being able to crush the Forsworn with relative ease

> The fallout from this causing the civil war

Do you really think they could have predicated such a convoluted turn of events?

I think people generally need to have a bit more of a think about the implications of the Markath events that preceded the Civil war - what I mean by that is that it is pretty impressive that Ulfric was able to recapture the City when the Empire was unable or unwilling to do so, and with what would have been minimal forces compared with what the Empire would have had at its disposal (remember this is before the other holds were fighting with him).

If the Empire is unable or unwilling to fight for Skyrim when something like this occurs how could anyone possibly argue that they have the regions best interests at heart, or are even suitable or capable of governing and protecting and policing the region?

Back to your point about his capture - at best the Thalmor could have messed with his head a bit and hoped he went off the rails a bit, but in the same dossier you refer to they even say something to the effect of him no longer acting the way they intended and being more of a liability.

I'd also point out that Ulfric was partially trained as a greybeard, so he is probably far better equipped than most to endure the rigors of imprisonment.

The other big thing that swings it for me that Ulfric/the Stormcloaks are the right choice is if you compare who the Jarls are for each hold based on one or the other winning.

I'll come back a bit later to clarify this one.

>>8800

Now I've got a bit of spare time - the Jarl comparisons, I've put the starting Jarl first in each comparison:

Windhelm/Eastmarch

Stormcloak = Ulfric

> a divisive figure, but lets focus on his dutes as Jarl - his treatment of non Nords is questionable (mitigating circumstances - the dark elves do steal etc. as you find out in some quests) but generally speaking the city looks to be well kept and the outlying settlements seem to be well cared for and have a good number of guards (probably due to the war & dragons but a plus nonetheless)

Imperial = Brunwulf

> despite having a humanitarian reputation nothing about the Dunmer or Argonian situation actually changes after he is appointed. Furthermore he actually has diolouge saying he has no plans to let the Argonians in.

Winterhold

Stormcloaks = Korir

> young, dislikes College of Winterhold

Imperial = Kraldar

> likes the College more than Korir, but they're basically the same

Riften/The Rift

Stormcloak = Laila

> hates the theives guild and corruption, actively seeks to stop corruption in the hold and has several quests associated with this

Imperial = Maven

> very corrupt, links to the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, openly admits to supporting the Thalmor during the Diplomatic Immunity quest

Dawnstar/The Pale

Stormcloak = Skald

> old, been a Jarl for 35 years (how bad can he be then?) not very popular with some of the people due to his zealous support of Ulfric

Imperial = Brina

> more popular than Skald with the people, but she acknowledges she has problems with the Empire in diolouge

Whiterun

Imperial = Balgruuf

> seems honorable and a solid ruler, but indecisive, seems to grudgingly respect Ulfric with dislodge saying "it was the only thing he could do" about him fighting Torygg, interestingly he attends the Thalmor party in Diplomatic Immunity Quest

Stormcloak = Vignar

> an old war veteran and companion, seems to be pragmatic from quotes about how he wants to protect the city from Dragons and so on. Challenges Balgruuf prior to becoming Jarl over Talos worship and generally seems honourable.

Morthal/Hjaalmarch

Imperial = Idgrod

> not very popular with people due to having visions, people doubt her

Stormcloak = Sorli

> despite being the Stormcloak Jarl she is clearly not racist as she chooses an Argonian as her Housecarl, not universally popular with the people

Falkreath

Imperial = Siddgeir

> lazy, unpopular and unscrupulus, admits to working with bandits and is clearly absent is most of his duties. Some evidence to suggest he was installed by the Empire due to fears over his predecessor (below)

Stormcloak = Dengeir

> The old Jarl of Falkreath, slightly paranoid (arguably with justification) but able to be reasonable when proven wrong (see the blacksmith quest), is far more popular than Siddgeir

Markarth/The Reach

Imperial = Igmund

> his father's broke a promise to Ulfric that ultimately started the Civil war (why did he accept Ulfric's help if he had no intention of fulfilling his promise?) Markath seems to be in disarray in the game, suggesting it is not thriving under his rule

Stormcloak = Thongver

> respects Ulfric for saving the city in the previous events, the Silverblood family is dubious, but he doesn't have involvements (from what we can see) in the questionable dealings

Solitude/Haafingar

Elisif is Jarl in either case

> the fact that Ulfric retains Elisif is either a political necessity or a good/fair act depending on your viewpoint. Certainly he cold have installed a more favourable Jarl in her place, but doing so would have probably caused unrest due to her popularity. Still, the comparisons with how Ulfric is killed by the Imperials should they win are there to see.

Overall there are better and worse Jarls on each side, but I think the Stormcloak Jarls are quite a bit better overall - in particular the Imperials appointing Maven Black Briar seems unjustifiable.

>>8801

As much as I hate maven, laila really is a puppet. Her fucking steward is in maven's pocket and doing maximum shilling for her.

>>8796

>Ulfric has been tortured and brainwashed by Elenwen before being released to cause a civil war.

>Source: thalmor dossier

Seriously dude? with the ammount of posts and arguments we've made you would still post this?

Ulfric was never "brainwashed" he was led to believe something, instigated by the thalmor to be a nuisance to the empire, but we've already stablished why the magnitude of the Stormcloak rebellion escapes the machinations of the Thalmor.

We've also used the Dossier to explain the situation and we've defused the "incriminating evidence against Ulfric" argument that people like to use.

I said it before: There is no argument to disprove or invalidate the Cause of the Stormcloaks and the Leadership of Ulfric stormcloak.

You don't have to like him or his methods, you may even still prefer the Empire for your personal reasons; but at this point we have proven that the man is objectively and unquestionably right as is his revolution.

>>8804

are you suggesting that removing her as Jarl and installing Maven is a good thing?

because it clearly isn't

The Imperials appointing Maven is the most obvious example of how the Empire is doing things that are wrong, and that its leaders know are wrong, with the sole motive of clinging on to power.

The Empire would rather install the most corrupt and vile person in the city to be Jarl because it keeps them in power rather than let the current Jarl continue their good work because they don't support the Empire.

>>8805

Well put

>>8806

>>8806

>The Empire would rather install the most corrupt and vile person in the city to be Jarl because it keeps them in power rather than let the current Jarl continue their good work because they don't support the Empire.

And it's exactly what the Thalmor are counting on, as I mentioned before. If the empire is desperately trying to hold onto its own power, then it's too busy to amass the resources and political strength needed to go to war with the Thalmor.

If you keep corrupt people in power, and then allow the thalmor to walk freely everywhere (like in Markarth, where they act as "advisors" and such) then you're pretty much enabling your own demise. Seriously, the thalmor are not only rooting out talos worship (which is, as we know, part of their scheme to unmake creation) they are actively undermining the structures that keep the empire running and weakening provincial strength and war-readiness.

Suppporting the Empire is wrong, because the thalmor are parasites working from within the Imperial machine, degrading the strength of its parts. if the Empire is gone then the thalmor cannot do any more damage to the provinces.

The white-gold concordat was a mistake. The Mede Dynasty has disgraced man. Join your local Stormcloak camp today, if not for skyrim, then for Tamriel!

>>8806

Thongvor is a slave driver lol

>>8804

This

Appointing Maven is pretty much just cutting out the middle man. Laila is honorable but doesn't seem to be actually changing anything for the better. Riften is a fucking shithole either way, and it upsets me that you can't work to make it a better place with noticeable changes like you can with Raven Rock in Dragonborn.

>>8856

> Laila is honorable but doesn't seem to be actually changing anything for the better

you literally do quests for her to stop skooma smugglers and stuff

It is probably the case that you can't improve Riften like you can Raven Rock because you're pretty much obliged to join the thieves guild, an also because it would mess up the quest where you have to find Esbern in the Ratways - it wouldn't work if you had already sorted out the city an cleaned up the ratways

>>8860

Another reason there should have been a quest to opt-out and kill all of the fuckers like with the DB.

It's a wonderful TES game that makes me want to destroy half of the factions rather than join them, even for less reward.

>>8863

but they are all Essential because the player might make the wrong decision if not.

>>8864

You forgot the

>:^)

>>8605

Heil Ulfric, Heil Hitler

Remove Hlaalulves.

>>8809

Honestly, after participating in this discussion a while, I've largely come to conclude that both sides are equal in their "rightness"- applying the philosophical idea of Just War Theory:

The Stormcloaks:

Just Cause: The Thalmor are intent on subjugating and destroying the races of Men, starting with their culture and right to worship as they please.

Right intention: The goal is to win the throne of Skyrim and drive the Empire/Thalmor from the province, thus responding to the threat

Competent Authority: This one is a bit iffy, but Ulfric is a Jarl, and several other Jarls have backed him, so I feel it qualifies.

Last Resort: The options are capitulate to the Thalmor or fight.

Discrimination: I've never seen Stormcloaks attack non-combatants. Or heard of it, for that matter. They aren't out slaughtering civilians.

Proportionality: They don't do anything that the Empire doesn't.

Reasonable prospect of Success: This one's a grey area- another war with the Thalmor is inevitable and largely the point of the civil war- BUT, it's almost certain the immediate fighting in Skyrim would stop.

The Empire:

Just Cause: They're maintaining their territory and upholding laws and agreements made with a (genuinely awful) foreign political body, and are responding to an active rebellion.

Right intention: "Put down the rebel and restore the peace".

Competent authority: The Emperor likely decided on this at the pleasure of the Elder Council and then entrusted the campaign to Tullius, fulfilling this criteria.

Last Resort: Ulfric has made it clear that, though his intentions are noble, he doesn't want peace, he wants secession.

Reasonable Prospect of Success: It's entirely possible for the Empire to win, and if they did, there would be peace. Pax Imperius.

Discrimination: The Imperial Legion would likely frown on slaughtering civilians wholesale.

Proportionality: the two sides seem to keep it fairly low key, and match each other blow for blow.

The Just War Theory states that, should these conditions be satisfied, a war is thus permissible. It also states that only the best reasons are acceptable, so you could just as easily throw out any thing where I said "iffy" or "grey area", and make BOTH sides unjustified.

>>8882

But who do you support?

>>8882

> Discrimination: The Imperial Legion would likely frown on slaughtering civilians wholesale.

Do you remember how ES5 starts?

>>8884

>this is a left or right issue man, gotta pick one

>>8717

>>8728

>>8752

>>8768

>>8780

>>8788

Read through my posts. It becomes rapidly clear that I like both sides, both sides have justification, and the question becomes not "which one is right?" it becomes "do we want war with the Thalmor now, or later?".

>>8887

Fair enough. But it could also be said that they have no way of knowing that you're not with the Stormcloaks, you could very well be lying, and it could be argued it's a moral failing on the captain in question that you're dealing with.

>>8899

>>8887

Heil Hitler, Heil Ulfric

>>8899

>>8899

We've no ID so it's not like I can pinpoint what your posts have been.

>this is a left or right issue man, gotta pick one

>Read through my posts. It becomes rapidly clear that I like both sides, both sides have justification

That doesn't really answer the question. You don't want to pick a side because you're justifying both, which is great, because both have valid claims, but SOMEONE's claim has to be the most valid, there can't be two truths at the same time, we know that a compromise cannot be reached because of the very nature of this conflict, and that any outcome will favor one side over the other.

So what's it going to be? You gonna sit this one out?

>>8904

See, at the risk of sounding like a first year philosophy student, I disagree. It's entirely possible for both sides to be equally valid.

However, to answer your question, based on the context I've discussed prior- with humanity on the upswing, starting to recover faster from the Great War population wise than the Thalmor, it's probably best that they follow Ulfric and the Redguards' lead, and attack now.

>>8616

fuck you, you stupid s'wit.

Stormcloaks strong!

>>8813

good, throw the Hlaalus into the mines, with the breton trash.

>>8923

What exactly is your basic point?

>>8610

or maybe you're just a butthurt liberal fetcher

>>8927

That truth is independent from human value systems and as such it transcends us.

And that truth is worth pursuing, knowing and most importantly: Truth is worth expressing.

Truth is a map of reality, if it's possible to determine what the truth is in a given situation, then the resolution which is most productive towards the manifestation of truth is the correct course of action, everything else then falls into the realm of lies, they do not express reality and will lead to negation.

>>8944

>people who don't join a certain faction in a video game MUST belong to a certain ideology just like everyone who disagrees with me

Not everyone who isn't natsoc is a tumblrina genderfluid landwhale

>>8948

>people who don't join a certain faction in a video game MUST belong to a certain ideology just like everyone who disagrees with me

this is actually somewhat true. Typically, what you hate is more often than not aligned with the opposite of what you love. That's pretty much Heidegger's update of Hegel's "Negation".

Nobody but you mentioned Trump.

Find a new Right-wing scapegoat, you unoriginal fetcher

>>8605

>racism

n'wah, if anything it's nationalism. Some shitbag from Cyrodil is trying to force a change to their entire nation, religion, and culture just because some stuck up Altmer beat the imperials' pathetic asses in a war, and you think it's bad that they want their native homeland for themselves?

Disgusting Thalmor infiltrator, you.

>tfw there's a mod that restores the dynamic nature the civil war was supposed to be

>tfw it's cucked with muh diversity for both sides because the maker is a shitposting redditor

>>8623

Not to mention:

>Nords keep dunmer in slums

>Dunmer quite literally enslaved the beast races

>but the Nords are the bad guys

>>9038

>I've only played skyrim and don't know anything about the aldmeri dominion or the empire

Only an united empire can take on the aldmeri dominion.

>b-b-but skyrim can secede and still unite with cyrodiil!

Stormcloak victory cuts off high rock from cyrodiil too, and after ulfric kills the high king, a general, kicks out 5/9 jarls, damages whiterun and solitude, icks out the legion and kills many aswell (most legionnares in skyrim are nords) there is 0% chance that skyrim and cyrodiil seperately take on the aldmeri dominion.

Stay delusional.

>>9042

>Only an united empire can take on the aldmeri dominion.

Didn't you read the thread? I thought we went through this already. Thalmor can't replace their numbers at time and they're stretched too thin. They can't beat anybody, so they puppeteer the empire to stall for time.

>>9044

>aldmeri dominion=thalmor

Knew you had only played Skyrim.

>>9045

>Implying aldmeri dominion isn't the same as thalmor.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Aldmeri_Dominion_%28Skyrim%29

>The Third Aldmeri Dominion, colloquially known as simply the Aldmeri Dominion, is a powerful empire established in 4E 22[1] by the Thalmor, a group of radical, nationalist Altmer in the Summerset Isles who espoused the supremacy of the various races of Mer over the Men.

The term is perfectly interchangeable in the context of the current lore/Skyrim's civil war.

>>9042

>Stay delusional.

It's you imperial lovers who are delusional, we've already established why a united empire is best for the Dominion and how they are actively sabotaging the war effort.

We've also given evidence as to how weak the Dominion REALLY is, and you're a fool if you think Both Skyrim and Hammerfell won't join forces to bash thalmor skulls.

>B-but muh Dominion means Summerset+Elsweyr+Valenwood!

You're also a doofus if you think that means jack shit. When Hammerfell broke off from the empire they had already gone through a phase of civil war. They blew the fuck out of the The Dominion, oh wait it was just thalmor mages because Khajiit where too bussy doing moonsugar and the Bosmer too bussy fucking eldrich monstrosities and eating their own dead.

A united Empire is the means on which the Thalmor weaken humanity, Talos worship needs to be reinstated so that Lorkhan stays strong and the elven plans get fucked.

Go on, read the thread and prove us wrong.

Is is just me, or do other people read images boards while listening to super mario bros 2 and read posts out loud in robotic voices? I find myself doing this all the time now.

>>9051

>>9051

what kind of normie-ass "quirky geek gamr" post is that, anon? What the fuck.

>>8694

>The reachmen? you mean the demon-worshiping, Hag Raven-cavorting Reachmen?

Big talk coming from a people who worshipped their dragon tyrants until the aedra intervened

>The Reachmen who had no form of centralized government, authority or recognizable civilization Reachmen?

The Reachish government of tribal lords who elect a high king from their number is clearly what the nords ripped off when they couldn't go on mindlessly obeying the commands of their dragon masters

>The Reachmen who were cave-dweling savages who never bothered to have an actual claim to anything because they were never recognized by anyone else in all of Tamriel for being an actual People?

Jibbering and jabbering from the race that ties with the redguards for the lowest int score. Go back to Atmora snown'wah

>The reachmen, who are quite literally worse than orcs. I mean orcs in Skyrim have strongholds and nobody bothers them because they don't bother anyone… those reachmen who are worse than ORSIMER???

Oh boo hoo you big strong Nords can't beat disorganized guerrillas wielding stone axes and wearing furs. Those orcs are more your level, beating up goblinoids is all your good for.

>The Reachmen Savage, bloody, daedra-worshiping Reachmen? The ones who are little more than blood-lusty bandits?

Beating your sorry asses from one side of the reach to the other. If you didn't have the thuum then the reachmen would already be reconquering North Nedeland. As it is it's only a matter of time.

>>9286

> Big talk coming from a people who worshipped their dragon tyrants until the aedra intervened

Newsflash, the dragon religion of the Nords died out a long time ago, and anyway, the line between Akatosh and Alduin is hazy at best

> The Reachish government of tribal lords who elect a high king from their number is clearly what the nords ripped off when they couldn't go on mindlessly obeying the commands of their dragon masters

The Nords had been around for a long time before the dragon priest era, the government in the dragon era represents a small part of Nord history and it is unfair to treat it as being the "standard" of Nord culture/history.

In any case are you really suggesting that the reachmen have a monopoly on the concept of having kings as rulers?

This idea is a bit laughable given the reachmen are (compared with the Nords) a very recent group/culture. You will find that the high kings of Skyrimm predate the reachmen as a group.

> Jibbering and jabbering from the race that ties with the redguards for the lowest int score. Go back to Atmora snown'wah

You would find that a disproportionately large number of the achievements and great works in the history of Tamriel come from the Nords, maybe its divine intervention, maybe its good fortune, but you can't really argue that the Nords are anything but a dominant and culturally rich race.

> Oh boo hoo you big strong Nords can't beat disorganized guerrillas wielding stone axes and wearing furs. Those orcs are more your level, beating up goblinoids is all your good for.

Look up the Markarth Incident for a definitive lore account of Nords crushing the reachmen. The only reason the Reachmen are of any significance in Skyrim is that everyone is busy dealing with the civil war. Fast forward a couple of years after the war is over and they will be all but removed from the region and considered an irrelevant minor pest to caravans.

> Beating your sorry asses from one side of the reach to the other. If you didn't have the thuum then the reachmen would already be reconquering North Nedeland. As it is it's only a matter of time.

There are so few people left that have any use of the Thuum, saying that if nords "didnt have the thuum the reachmen would already be conquering" is just silly. Fact is the reachmen are militarily, and culturally irrelevant, other than for a brief period during the events of Skyrim when they get away with some bandit type activity because everyone is too busy fighting each other.

>>9286

>Big talk coming from a people who worshipped their dragon tyrants until the aedra intervened

>worshipping dragons actually wyverns

>bad

Pick one, cavedweller.

>>9286

> comparing what the Nords did in the pre-historic/mythical era to what the reachmen are doing now

If you don't see how basically acknowledging the Reachmen are thousands of years behind the Nords in society and culture ruins any argument you are trying to make you're a bit silly.

>>9286

>Unironically defending Reachmen

>By using falacies drowned in willful ignorance of the lore

People like you are the reason the Empire signed the White-Gold concordat and why the Thalmor keep undermining Men at each turn.

Here is your answer in any case:

>>9288

And you better check those sick dubs.

>>9286

>Big talk coming from a people who worshipped their dragon tyrants until the aedra intervened

Worshiped, rebelled and then killed/expelled*

*BIG* talk from a *BIG* people with *BIG* achievements.

Edgy, Daedra-loving manmers need not apply.

>literally being worse than Bosmer.

Saged extra post because this wonderful site ate the last post.

>>9355

k bud

I'll make sure I leave fantasy and imagination to the expert dragonologists next time.

God forbid a flying lizard with two legs gets confused with a flying lizard with no specified amount of legs.

Let's just forget how Wyverns are almost always depicted as retarded animals, I mean they've got two legs everybody!

>>9355

A dragon could be a series of interconnected dicks and tinker-toys and you couldn't prove it's not a dragon because dragons don't exist.

>>9355

>being this autistic

>>9355

Well, I have a totally-real scientific textbook that says wyverns are a type of dragon

Where's your proof fetcher

I'm going with Stormcloaks on my current game…I think. For all of my previous games, and I've had many, I just didn't do the war quest because the more I traveled the more I realized nothing could save Skyrim. Not siding with either or ending the war or calling a truce. "A rift that neither time nor magic can mend", or whatever. It's obvious that some of the writers are just retards, but others actually know their history and understand what's going on in Europe more than the game itself lets on.

Anyways, this time I'm going with the Stormcloaks. I quite liked the Reach situation with the Forsworn, but having Ulfric the Boogeyman be the one who subjugated them.

For fucking what? He can't properly stand up to the local authorities, let alone the full strength of the empire, let alone the knife-ears, but he has time to be taking back Markarth? That's a lot more work than just "making an example" or whatever. And yeah, they underline his hypocrisy as if they didn't have enough NPCs exaggerating that point already, but for real? Even if he's le brainwashed sleeper agent shell or whatever, his whole rhetoric prevents him from just being like "Oh fuck the original inhabitants", and he would fucking despise the Silverbloods, so he would have actually been like "Join us against the Empire and we'll make peace and leave your native lands be". Not to mention that the entire thing with the Forsworn is another example of Bethesda's writers not having even a basic, overall timeline well-communicated amongst their dialogue writers and lore writers (books etc), leading to an endless stream of bullshit about events happening both a few ages ago and somehow also being accomplished by Ulfric or whatever last Tuesday right before him and Sheogorath bro-fisted in a pool of Nacho Dorito Mountain Dew while spit-roasting Azura. Same as both Fallout games they've made with middle-aged humans remembering firsthand their lives before the apocalypse.

Anyways, I was going to side with the Reach guys since I haven't started the War quest yet, but lo and behold, "you've just got to kill this one old pickpocket, this demonstrates that I am not a morally consistent person and also apparently prone to random short bursts of voyeuristically unnecessary bloodshed, in case the random merchant being killed and the bullshit with Nepos didn't clue you in". The bitch of it is that you then have to go through the cave and fight the leveled Dwarven gyros with a shiv if you have an actual weapon for your main attack skill.

Obviously the best thing for everyone would be to go to the treaty council at High Hrothgar, every time they ask me to decide about a hold tell them the hold now belongs to me since everyone in the entire realm is so fucking corrupt and incompetent they literally have to resort to going to the mountain monks to ask the magic destiny war-hero who's never used a desk how to run their politics. When they object loudly, there should be an additional option to tell them to fuck off or I won't kill Alduin, so give up the hold and send your wife to blow me while you're at it. I mean I'm the fucking Dragonborn, Ulfric with his self-awakening shout is John the Baptist whether or not they realized they were doing that with the story. So if he gets up to leave in a huff or whatever, fuck it, I'll challenge him. A duel on the table for Windhelm. Shout him to pieces, poetic justice, then unite Skyrim under my rule because otherwise the dragons are going to fuck everything. While I'm at it, tell the Thalmor they can fuck off back home and tell their leaders to either start paying tribute or I send the dragons at them. Hell it's not even a bluff, I already get two separate dragons doing what I say just in the main questline.

Septims are kill, it's time for a new bloodline, may as well be the fetcherborn line, and the new seat of power in the Empire can be Shor's Stone, fuck all of your gay ass cities with your gay ass boat-huts and stanky Pelagius chambers and guards who can't figure out that YES, THE NECROMANCER IS THE KILLER

>>9361

"Everything is art."

Words describe things.

It's what they fucking do, it's their function.

When you have a fictional thing, you first describe it in detail and/or with a visual depiction, then you attach the handle to it and henceforth that is what the word refers to.

"Any word can mean anything" is just as shitty a concept in fiction or abstract as it is with words referring to concrete objects, because words exist to refer to things.

Even toddlers instinctually understand this, why can't post-modernists?

>>9373

A dragon isn't a concrete thing, you can't say "Well in Texas Jones' book of Magic Humdingary it says Dragons have to have four legs and fart sparkles and therefore Skyrim dragons are pink wafer cookies!"

If a universe establishes "This is a dragon" then in that universe *that is a dragon*, and no amount of drawing from other sources is going to disprove that because there's no universal definition of what a dragon is and there's no objective answer because again *dragons aren't real*.

>>9359

>being this butthurt

>about being wrong

>>9361

Fitting concept coming from the college of winterhold. Have you plunged the city into the ocean yet?

>>9362

>words don't mean things because muh fantasy

>>9363

>knowing things is autism

>having intelligence is autism

>>9367

>>9376

Sure thing, Todd.

>>9381

I can't decide whether autism or troll.

>>9355

>>9382

>>9382

>>9385

>disagreeing with me is autism or trolling

Throw in accusations of bait and this may as well be the shithole called /v/.

>>9382

Pretty sure it's both.

>>9381

give up please, you're embarassing yourself

>>9386

Not really, I just wanted an excuse to post the ebin Autism video maymay

>>9378

Why don't you stop pretending they made up something new and just so happened to use a word that already existed for something similar?

They took a wyvern, stuck their own version of D&D Words of Power in its throat, and said "dragon". They did not invent any new concept/ If they had they would be utter retards, like almost on your level of stupid, to use an existing word that describes a similar, but different thing when the thing they made just so happens to exactly correspond to another thing that has been made and already has a name.

They made either a mistake or an intentional switch because it was easier for them to make a wyvern. It is not a dragon. Apples are not oranges. If there were a fantasy world where apples and oranges had their names switched, that would be fucking retarded unless it were somehow a plot point.

To an Thalmor, any given -ism means "prejudice + power", and anyone they say has power of course must actually have it, but in actuality all of their -isms are simple subsets of prejudice and have always been used as such in standard fucking English. If you, or the Thalmors, or Bethesda employees cannot grasp the basics or purpose of basic fucking English, please, end your lives or have your sub-normal brains repaired.

>>9372

> Even if he's le brainwashed sleeper agent

> le

pls leave

also a lot of what you said is factually incorrect

>>9372

You just accidentally admitted that you had the wrong guy arrested in the murder mystery quest because you just followed the arrows and didn't check up on all the clues.

Good Job.

>>9401

He cannot rest while on his retard quest, he's trying to be the best.

>>9388

>>9390

>>9401

>>>/v/

You have to go back, pablo.

>>9406

>>>/b/

You'll fit right in with the shit flinging, fetcher.

>>9395

>a matter of narrative consistency

Which Bethesda failed to provide by talking about dragons (an existing, defined concept in various mythologies) and then choosing a Western dragon-like creature which was in fact a Wyvern to depict them in the game where dragon-slaying was the entire gimmick and plot.

>Morphine and Med-X

Firstly, they could not for legal reasons use the names of real drugs in the game.

Secondly, all you see is a syringe, which is extremely non-specific, and morphine does not in fact grant you resistance to physical damage if you inject it before a gunfight.

>Chickens and Cuccos

Which was a result of Japs not knowing their Engrish.

>It doesn't matter what they are outside of the game.

Oh good, I can't wait until Bethesda introduces gnolls and they're just a literal pile of moving shit. After all it's their fantasy, no reason to give any heed whatsoever to actually accurately representing the basics of the lore you grab, just rip it off and put zero effort into research, great.

>Also if you think a fantasy creature that's evolved alongside human development in culture and language has a standardized definition for its appearance then you're fucking terminally stupid.

Looks like you know a lot more than all of the historians past and present, then. Congrats on the omniscience they couldn't reach.

>>9429

All joking aside:

"The wyvern has often been confused with the dragon, due to the similarities between them and due to the wyvern being a lesser-known mythical creature. In the middle ages, no clear distinction was made between the two."

> IN THE MIDDLE AGES, NO CLEAR DISTINCTION WAS MADE BETWEEN THE TWO

tldr: the whole two legs vs four legs was a later invention by 18th century writers.

Also - Dragons in Nordic traditions are not like the "classic" European Dragons, I'd recommend you read about the Nidhogg (which is pretty much the Nordic Alduin) and which you will not find any detailed descriptions of.

I'm pretty sure you're just one of those strange people that started this whole "debate" off the back of the depiction of Smaug in the Hobbit and you're just frustrated generally?

The whole "it annoys me that people don't imagine fictional things looking the way I imagine them" thing is just a tired pointless argument.

>Skyrim has actual flaws

>People talking about the difference between dragons and wyverns

kill me now

>>9431

It's just the 'tism (or a very successful troll)

>>9431

you're on a fantasy RPG board

you're obviously new, so if you have any questions feel free to ask

>>9434

> sage on a board that moves this slowly

same goes for you - any questions to help you integrate faster? fire away

>>9427

>After all it's their fantasy, no reason to give any heed whatsoever to actually accurately representing the basics of the lore you grab, just rip it off and put zero effort into research, great.

Basically. The Gnoll chieftains aren't gonna rip them apart for it, it's just gonna make autists on the internet shit their pants in rage over people not caring about the specifics of fantasy bullshit.

>>9442

>on a board

>about a fantasy game series

>insulting people for caring about fantasy

Don't you have a reddit thread to attend to?

>>9434

You missed the option of "bait", but I think it's safe to say you're a /v/tard regardless.

>>9428

>S-Skyrim has other problems!

>T-therefore you're not allowed to talk about this specific one!

>I-I'll use a bible depiction!

>>9442

>Winterhold mage

>this willing to white knight bethesda because "e-everyone that disagrees with bethesda lore i-is just an autist!"

And yet I bet you flipped your shit over Cyrodiil not being a jungle.

>>9445

>insulting people for caring about fantasy

Since you like dictionary definitions so much have this one:

>Fantasy. noun (pl) -sies

>1.imagination unrestricted by reality

>(as modifier): a fantasy world

>2. a creation of the imagination, esp a weird or bizarre one

The idea that fantasy concepts have to based in a collective dogma is contrary to the very idea of fantasy, which is an unrestricted expression of imagination.

>T-therefore you're not allowed to talk about this specific one!

In case you haven't noticed, this is only a problem to you.

>this willing to white knight bethesda because "e-everyone that disagrees with bethesda lore i-is just an autist!"

You are angry over the number of legs a creature that doesn't even exist has, that's some major spergers. I'm not even white knighting Bethesda, I just pointed out your #leggate obsession is stupid.

>>8796

Yes we all know the theory that Ulfric is some Thelmor MKULTRA Manchurian Candidate. This has been discussed so many times now. But considering how they operate all clandestine CIA like, I would not be surprised if the Thelmor have some kind of Project MKULTRA Mind Control program going on.

>>9052

Look up thread simulator on YouTube.

>>8730

Oh hello, Master of /tes/. I did'nt realize that you governed the speech here. Fuck yourself, you castrated hermaphrodite. If I wanted censorship of speech, I would have stayed in half-chan

>>9565

there's a difference between "censorship" and something "not being welcome"

Nobody is saying "make saying bad words illegal" they are saying "this is a board where we talk about a fantasy RPG series, could you not start going off on one about your political leanings". There is a time and a place to talk about things, saying "this is not the place to talk about that" is not censorship it's common sense.

You can live in a place that has free speech, but that doesn't mean you should say anything anywhere. If you are a guest in someone's house and they ask you not to use words they don't like then don't do it. That's not censorship, that's understanding how to function within a society.

>>9568

Well, what that person specifically said is

>Pol-tier vocabulary

So this is indeed about someone not liking someone else's choice of words. Despite the fact that if you go to ANY board on this site, you'll find the exact same damn lingo.

I'd sage for off-topic, but, eh.

>>9574

>Having an issue with responding to month old posts

>On a board that moves slower than my geriatric crippled grandmother

I think you've got it mixed up in regards to who's the retard here.

>To conclude, I'd like to state that not only are you a fucking retard who responds to month old posts but you're also so stupid you think sage would actually have an effect on this board.

I was considering saging, not because it'd actually do anything, but because it's the proper protocol. Get the stick out of your ass.

My point is to be a little bitch because someone spouts some fucking /pol/ maymay is to be even more of an annoying autist than the /pol/ guy.

>>9578

>I think you've got it mixed up in regards to who's the retard here.

Anon, did you seriously make your post expecting a person who posted a fucking month ago to respond to you? A fucking one line post that did nothing but say "this" to another person's opinion. You felt the need to reply to this post that went under the radar for a month because, I don't know, it hurt your feelings?

>inb4 my post was directed towards everyone

It was quite obviously directed towards >>8730

>I was considering saging, not because it'd actually do anything, but because it's the proper protocol. Get the stick out of your ass.

It would be proper protocol on a board that gets more than 0pph, but it does literally nothing on small boards like this except give you a blue name. This is pretty much exactly my point.

>My point is to be a little bitch because someone spouts some fucking /pol/ maymay is to be even more of an annoying autist than the /pol/ guy

He was annoying a month ago.

>>9579

The post I replied to was made the same day that I made mine. I did however reference an older post that started that little mini-argument.

>>9565 was not me, you fucking autist.

>>9580

classic /pol/ :

uh oh, someone think's I'm being an idiot, better call them names - that will really show them!

>>9581

Filthy shill/Thalmor/outlander/libtard/communist/Hlaalu/kike/n'wah/other buzzwords!

>>9582

fucking censor

goddammit

>>9580

>was not me, you fucking autist.

Regardless, >>9565 is a fucking retard and you still defended him.

You also used the term аutist in the incorrect context.

>>9590

That image hurts my soul.

>>9599

>What? A post has been responded to after a specific window of time? Heresy! Nonsense!

>>9600

You still don't fucking get it, do you. The fucking post that >>9565 made went under the radar for a fucking month. Nobody paid it any mind because no one gave a shit. Then retard over here went and responded to it because he can't control his fucking urges to defend /pol/s stupid memes on all turfs.

But no worrys anon, you guys are the defenders of free speech on Resdayn ! With your spirit you will surely make it so that every board can be like a /pol/ version of /b/! Never has freedom ever prevailed so strongly as it has this day!

>>9601

>comes to Resdayn to complain about freedom of speech

>shoehorns complaining about freedom of speech into a lore discussion that wasn't about freedom of speech

>further tries to associate free speech with /pol/ when the board is /v/-level hotpocketry

Thalmor pls

>>9605

>implying /pol/ has anything to do with free speech

It's just there so rednecks can have their circlejerks when they're not fucking their cousins

>>9607

Real mature.

The thing is anon, rednecks may fuck thier cousins

But they still get more pussy than you.

>>9501

>I would not be surprised if the Thelmor have some kind of Project MKULTRA Mind Control program going on.

in order to accept such theories as plausible, one has to have a higher opinion of Bethesda's writing ability than they deserve.

there is no point to reading into Skyrim's plots any deeper than face value.

>>9711

>there is no point to reading into Skyrim's plots any deeper than face value.

That's completely wrong. First, you can't simply blame everything on "Bethesda" because lore is made mostly by Khullman and Kirkbride, then expored to Todd and co and then Bethesda imports it into the game. Secondly, most lore doesn't get imported into the games because target audience and incompetentness.

This means that a lot of things in TES games have much deeper leves which got dropped somewhere in this process.

>>9594

>being this butthurt

>by being proven wrong

wew lad

>>9599

>"it's only censorship if the government does it" meme

Where are all these outlanders coming from? God damn. Did gamergate bring in this many redditors?

>>9601

>freedom of speech is a /pol/ meme

By Talos it really is a redditor.

>>9606

>he's going all out

Does people being allowed to say what they want really hurt your precious little feelings that much?

>>9744

Fuck you and fuck your wyverns, fetcher. Back to /pol/ you go, redneck.

As far as I'm concerned, none of the two factions deserve to win.

On one hand, the Empire is just a laughable shadow of what it used to be, the Emperor being killed by an even more laughable shadow of what Dark Brotherhood used to be.

On the other hand, Ulfric just seems an inbred retard to me, and all other dumb nords just want him to rule because he represents them really well.

I don't particullary have anything anything against their racist ways, mainly because they are surrounded by Imperials who want to rule them, Dunmeri who are just fetchers to everybody and are even more racist, and Bretons, who act like even bigger barbaric s'wits than Nords in Skyrim.

That said, I honestly see nothing wrong with Thalmor ruling the empire. I mean really, if they can stomp the Imperials this bad, they deserve Tamriel. Fuck, they're way smarter and their culture is way more interesting and advanced, I see no reason other that "hurr racist arrogant antagonistic elves" for them to rule.

>>9767

> That said, I honestly see nothing wrong with Thalmor ruling the empire. I mean really, if they can stomp the Imperials this bad, they deserve Tamriel.

So basically you're saying "if you can win the war you can do what you want". That's exactly what the Stormcloaks are trying to do stupid…

>>9767

>I see no reason other that "hurr racist arrogant antagonistic elves" for them to rule

Yah, if you look pass their plans to completely destroy humanity, they do seem like pretty swell guys, don't they.

>>9768

>So basically you're saying "if you can win the war you can do what you want". That's exactly what the Stormcloaks are trying to do stupid…

That's what everybody is trying to do.This is what wars are for. Jeez.

>>9772

Shit, human races never had the desire to destroy all mer?

>>9779

> That's what everybody is trying to do.This is what wars are for. Jeez

well observed, although not all wars are for that reason, and the motives for the great war and the stormcloak rebellion are different (i.e. independance for the stormcloaks versus crusade/subjugation for the aldmeri dominion)

you really don't see why saying "the stormcloak's are fine but they don't deserve to win" and saying "the thalmor are great because they won a war" is dumb?

you're effectively saying it isn't okay to start a fight for self-governance, but it is okay to be in charge if you won the war - so you don't think it is okay to start a war, but it's good if you win it?

if you don't get why that makes you sound dumb then think about if for a while

>>9787

what i was saying is the stormcloaks don't deserve my help as the dragonborn, which they absolutely need, to win.

Also you're forgetting about the motives of each side. Thalmor want to rid the world of barbaric drunken retards, the Stormcloaks want to perpetuate exactly that.

>>9789

> Thalmor want to rid the world of barbaric drunken retards

actually they want to end the world for everyone, not just the nords

> the Stormcloaks want to perpetuate exactly that

yeah - crazy that they want to be continue to live in their homeland and worship their gods

>>9802

I remember a while back I ventured into the forums and found one comment by Kirkbride (swt) saying how initially the developers wanted religion to be of greater significance in the story. Not just muh Talos and fuck elves, but actually have the people of the East worship the True Nord Gods and hate that their Western relatives abandon Kyne for Kynareth and shit. Their temples would be different I assume and everything would be more…Nordic.

Instead there's only one guy in one mountain living there with his grandson who keeps the Nordic Gods. It hurts but I do it for Todd.

>>10166

>but actually have the people of the East worship the True Nord Gods and hate that their Western relatives abandon Kyne for Kynareth and shit

Hnnnngg, but then again he would say that as it fits into the Pocket Guide First Edition, which is set ~600 years before Skyrim.

>>8623

not to sound retarded, but maybe Bethesda did some subtle representation of current and future society? are the white lorefiction writers that got hired by Bethesda worrying for their white future?

unfortunate reminder that Uriel Septim VII coming into power was the beginning of the end of the Imperial Empire

when your once mighty empire has become corrupt to the point where even Talos himself would disapprove, you know it's time to pack up your fucking bags

This thread inspired me to side with Stormcloaks. Interestingly enough, Talos himself thinks it's time for a change: "The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new. What? No idea. Because I'm old. Old dog doesn't get new ideas. But maybe young folks like you should try some new ideas. I don't know. Could be messy. But change is never pretty." http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Wulf Isn't that funny? Wulf tells that maybe it's time for the Empire to go and 200 years later Empire is fine with not worshipping him, while people who worship him are working against the Empire.

>>10251

Talos himself DID disapprove - He's Wulf, from Morrowind, and he flat out said that 'Maybe it is time for the Empire to go away and be replaced with something new.' That being said, I still side againts the Stormcloaks, because fuck me, I didn't spend the 4 previous games defending the Empire just to watch it break up because of some drunken nords.