/tes/ - The Elder Scrolls Discussion

Nothing wrong except consistently be on the losing side of every important event in history, and have no real civilization of their own. Their highest claim to prestige is serving as Imperial attack dogs.

they've done nothing right either

they are just irrelevant for the most part because they are content to sit in their strongholds observing morally questionable laws and customs

>>9639

>Implying morality is objective

Actually I wasn't I was pointing out that their cultural morality is highly questionable, and yes while that is essentially true of all culture's morality.

> A god says its ok to do the shit they do. That's good enough for most people irl and this one actually proves his existence every single game.

This is kind of my point, their "god" is canonically referred to as literally being Boethiath's shit (though it is probably fairly metaphorical depending on your preferred source) and is acknowledged by pretty much everyone else in their world to be bad.

also what was the point of your picture?

>>9645

kek'd at pony

>>9646

> I was pointing out that their cultural morality is highly questionable,

By what standard? If morality isn't objective, then all you have is opinions. You could argue that others dislike them due to their own subjective value judgement, or that their practices are impractical, but you sounded like you were making a right/wrong judgement. What is your argument?

> acknowledged by pretty much everyone else in their world to be bad.

Well, just because people believe this doesn't make it true. Being wronged by someone or shat out doesn't make you "bad", whatever that means. Again we have the issue of what is moral. Suffice it to say, most races demonstratively dislike orcs, but then gain most races seem to dislike eachother to varying degrees.

I just like Madesi.

>>9652

You've made an error in logic:

1. you said Morality isn't objective and is right and wrong are just decided by whatever is the overall opinion of society

(this is very debatable, but I can see you wont be persuaded otherwise so moving on)

2. you said then said "just because the rest of society thinks it is wrong doesn't mean it is"

Basically "you can't have your cake and eat it"

>>9655

>this is very debatable

is it? in the context of the game, or in general?

>>9655

>(this is debatable but I can see you won't be persuaded otherwise…

I am >>9661 and I could definitely be persduaded that objective morality exists, within the TES universe, you shouldn't assume. I would not like to discuss real world morality.

>>9632

Orcs are ugly.

Being ugly is wrong.

>>9661

> Power and pragmatism on the other hand, can be measured more concretely

I'd like to see how you can "measure" pragmatism…

I like this though, the idea that they as a culture disregard morality and simply have a kind of utilitarian philosophy only instead of "good" as the aim you have power. It certainly has a kind of appeal, the sort where you have a grudging admiration or respect for it.

That being said, pragmatism is not morality, so it would fit with the initial comment about being "morally questionable" - the very fact we are having this discussion demonstrates the fact that it is indeed questionable.

I think this is one of the reasons Elder Scrolls lore is so easy to get into, I would say every race in the game has a compelling culture that you can understand and respect, even if you don't necessarily agree with it even bosmer

>>9665

Actually, I would say the only way to have a fully objective morality is to have black and white rules laid out by your gods. And while this is the case up to a point within Elder Scrolls, for the most part it's more ambiguous that than, with commandments from the Aedra like "Live soberly and peacefully. Honor your parents, and preserve the peace and security of home and family." or "Use Nature's gifts wisely. Respect her power, and fear her fury."

>>9632

Illegally set up strongholds in Skyrim then have the arrogance to tell Nords that the area is theirs.

>>9669

kekked hard at your picture

>>9669

>implying moral relativism is good

>ever

Butthurt lefty detected, opinion discarded.

>>9697

> I like the orcs too, but I don't understand what you mean. What is morality, explain it to me? When you say morality, I don't know what you mean. TES wise.

Well something can be wrong from a pragmatic sense or a moral sense, e.g. not taking an umbrella to work would be wrong from a pragmatic sense as it could rain, but this is morally irrelevant.

In the same way much of the Orc sense of right and wrong is more of a practical/pragmatic system rather than Moral.

For example, the "punishment" for doing something wrong is simply pay the blood price to the victim. This is a much more practical approach to redressing the "wrong" than praying for forgiveness.

I agree it is "moral" in the sense that it is still a deity-derived set of rules (although I don't think the Code of Malacath is ever explicitly stated or shown to be a set of commandments that the orc's live by) but it is still clearly founded in a tangible cause-and-effect logic more so than with the other major religions in Tamriel (i.e. respect your chief makes sense from a practical point of view more so than things like "respect the dead").

The rules of the aedra and daedra in general are far more ambiguous or discretionary than say the ten commandments of the bible - they're more things like "respect nature" or "fight for your rights" than "don't kill" etc. So I suppose any defined rules the cultures derive from them are based on their interpretation of these commands rather than directly following them.

It's definitely an ambiguous one.

> Why are the rules set up by the Aedra more meaningful or more morally correct than those set up by the daedra? Do you like the Aedra better?

What I meant by "questionable" is the face value meaning - the very fact that we are questioning it proves it is questionable.

I think that you can infer from the quality or success of the cultures in the games how practical or valuable the teachings of that culture are, and in turn infer that the religion of that culture has instilled a more successful ethic/system into them.

Of course the definition of success is different from person to person, one might argue that the orc's lead a more successful way of life, but in any measurable way (historical empires, learning and discovery, etc.) you can't really argue that they stand up to either the human or traditional elf cultures.

>>9680

>lefty

not even close. i just have a three digit IQ.

>>9680

>anyone who doesn't spout /pol/ memes 24/7 must be a leftist communist social justice warrior trying to steal my freedom and guns

I hope trump nukes your shitty country.

>>9734

Way to be a n'wah, leftyfag. It isn't "hurr durr le /pol/ meme XD" to believe in something.

>>9723

>I'll pretend I'm smart and you're dumb to win the argument

Leftyfag confirmed, stop being a n'wah.

>>9734

>>9723

just ignore them, all responding to them achieves is shitting up the whole board with off-topic ramblings (which is probably what they want)

Back the topic of this thread - the Orsimer:

One interesting thing about their culture is the way it has slowly changed over time/from game to game.

In the beginning they were goblin-ken, barely sentient, and fighting alongside animals and savages.

Then by ES2 they had formed a settlement, it would be destroyed and rebuilt several times in their history, but this was their step towards joining the ruling societies of Tamriel, they were even involved with the Warp in the West.

By ES3 they were integrated into the empire to the point they were playable, and though rare compared to other races, were functional members of society. By now their culture came across as similar to hunnic/mongolian culture (to me at least, though I'm curious as to what you guys thought) of small honor-based nomadic groups that had a tendency to leave to do mercenary work as they reached adulthood.

By ES4 they had changed more, to the point some of them were higher ranking, or more affluent members of their societies, but you always got the sense they were not entirely comfortable with these positions, and seemed to work very hard to justify themselves and affect haughty mannerisms. Perhaps because this was the heartlands of the empire, or perhaps because times had changed their culture seemed far less unique than it used to. Culturally they were pretty much just ugly nords, and where others used to be fear and respect this had mostly given way to apathy towards them. Perhaps this is just because the orcs in Cyrodil were the ones most willing to forget their culture to rise through the ranks in society, rather than a change in their society as a whole.

And by ES5 they had returned to their roots, with many living in out-of-the way settlements obeying their own laws again reminding me of a steppe nomad culture, only without the horses. The ones in the cities were still rougher around the edges than their counterparts in ES4, perhaps because they had joined the world of men more recently, or perhaps because the culture of Skyrim was harder than Cyrodil, and it made them harder.

>>9742

>anyone who doesn't spout /pol/ memes 24/7 must be a leftist communist social justice warrior trying to steal my freedom and guns

Still making the same assumption. Don't you have a sister to fuck?

>>9797

>>9799

seriously, just ignore them

the only winning move is not to play

I don't normally play orcs, at least not for long, I just don't feel right as one.

However, I like Orcs and the Code of Malacath suits them, they go to their strongholds and don't bother none while at it.

They are the pariah people, of course they are meant to NOT have much to their name. They have no achievements to speak off save perhaps 4E orsinium which apparently is thriving.

I am a strong believer in self-determination, even if such self-determination leads to binding one's will to someone else in the end. In that Regard I respect the way organized orcs lead their lives, I don't necessarily like the entire code of Malacath, but it provides for them a simple living which promotes independence, strength and sacrifice for their community, which is an incredibly fulfilling lifestyle for some people.

If you pay attention to the lore, you realize that Orcs have a lot of what it takes to form a proper civilization, they are strong-willed, brave, determined, disciplined and pragmatic, they don't seem to let their personal desires interfere with their role in an organization, not even as bandits.

>Orcs are drunken bloody bandits

All races are drunken bloody bandits, I'd say that depending on the game you get more or less orcs in bandit clans.

>Orcs have no proper civilization and live like savages.

And they don't go around claiming to be a poor oppressed people who need mo septims fo dem smithing hammers. Their history has been too troubled and the other races have never quite let them settle down and make shit for themselves. On another note, they have never been depicted as being anymore bloodthirsty or cruel than other races, just more martial and war-like.

I'm not saying orcs dindu nuffin, like OP says, but certainly Orcs don't deserve all the shit they get. Hopefully i'll be able to play an Orc on the Next TES game.

>>9646

>>9818

Look, all lore and moral discussion aside here I think we all know what the real question should be about the Orsimer. Noble or ignoble, long-suffering exiled heroes or dumb brutes, plucky outside wagers or perpetually battered, the real question is this:

In a visceral, dirty, relatively uncultured, relatively uneducated, force-embracing society…

In a monocultural upbringing worshipping Malacath, acknowledging and yearning for one's roots and place in the noble and respected races you see around you, knowing if things had been different you would be beautiful and loved and accepted by them…

Rejecting their culture and embracing a certain level of foulness in yourself and your people, recognizing your virtue, strength, perseverance, and honesty…

As the worshippers of Aedra-turned-Daedra-turned-protector, all of the former righteous fury of Trinimac now warped and twisted, violated and humiliated, utterly destroyed and disgracefully redeposited by Boethiah, Malacath taking on many traits of his conquerer-destroyer-father and continuing to be utterly rejected and disregarded by both sides of the conflict he once gave everything for…

Worshipping that, mantling that as a culture, a loss of control, of determinancy, purity and virtue…rejection and filth and utter violation, rising from helplessness in a fouled but free state…yearning for the clean past but living in the filthy present with undying stubbornness and uncertain future…the entire race being, by their continued undying link to their god, devoured and shit out by a daedra while retaining vestiges of aedra sentiment…being themselves turned into helpless shit and regaining self-determination only by embracing it fully…

In a squalid, behaviorally relaxed, culturally repressive, ideologically adamant, and relatively brutal culture…

…your head-canon is that a minimum of 30% of all orcs are in fact major scatfetchers, right? Or maybe it's just innate to their entire culture or species? I mean, let's be real here, how could it not be? Or would it in fact be the opposite, and being a scatfetcher is like sexually mantling Boethiah, degrading and disgracing your entire race and heritage anew, and results in exile or execution? In which case there would be like the most powerful and influential 5% of orcs have secret "bohemian grove" type scat parties while the rest of the society is blissfully ignorant and exiles any normal scatfetcher who gets caught.

I feel this question of how and why orcs shit is in fact more important and revealing to flesh out in head-canon than their higher aspirations, and is a necessary psychological cornerstone in understanding the entire nature, identity, and purpose of the Orsimer as a species, a culture, a paradigm.

:^)

>>9968

Or, or, get this:

It could be a spiritual reaffirmation of themselves and their race.

Like, communal shitting.

Once a month, or fuck, every evening as if it were a nightly prayer, the orcs all gather round in a circle and grunt pleasantries and well-wished to each other while pinching loaves.

It's a secret ritual that they do their best to hide from the other races because they already can't handle any more ridicule or they'll all just mass suicide. So it's the most sacred Orcish ritual referred to only in cloaked terms around even the most trusted outsiders.

The ancient and celebrated practice of

DESIGNATED

SHITTING

MEETS

If we combine these two ideas we get the official policy of a

>designated shitting meet

Being a moot that the head of each camp or tribe and their advisors attend wherein they hash out agreements, share information, join in worship, exchange children, engage in lots of sex, and seal all of their most important pacts at the end of the day by participating in the sacred Boethiah birthing circle, representing new opportunity and blood ties.

Smaller, less important

>designated shitting meets

between neighboring tribes or just within one camp might be a regular staple of business agreements, important birthdays, marriages, holidays, victory celebrations, and especially feasts.

Headcanon from hell established.

Beat that shit, MK.

>>9975

He thinks orcs are scat fetishists.

>>9975

In a nutshell: I'm using my familiarity with Orsimer lore to mercilessly mock their srs bsns martyr backstory.

>>10032

Wait, Kirkbride wrote about orcs and scat fetishism?

>>10043

Not in a sexual way.

>>10032

>>10043

>>10046

You are taking an obvious joke way too seriously…even after it was explicitly revealed as a joke.

Are you all on the spectrum here or something?

>>10062

> implying their responses aren't also jokes

>>10063

stupidity is far more common than autism.

>>10157

>Orcs

>Beast races

THIS TRIGGERS MY TRINIMAC

>>10167

I didn't say Orcs are a beast race. Khajiit, argoes and bosmer are the beast races.

>>10175

Lol well they just are fam, I didn't make the lore but there it lays.

They aint elves that's for damn sure.

>>10192

Hey man, looks aren't always an accurate way to judge. Look at the Orcs. Save for the ears, you'd never know they were related to Elves (or are they?!?! Maybe not). Also lets be real, Beth cuts corners with shit like this. I'm pleasantly surprised that they added that shit with the horns and all on TESO, although I'm still trying to get a computer and learn how to pirate that game (somehow) because I cannot give it money in any way.

I don't think they are elves personally. I'll go with the strong glamours and hidden truths. To your credit, Bosmer who leave Valenwood and abandon the Green Pact don't immediately loose their form, and supposedly the Camoran dynasty claimed they had intermixed and produced fertile offspring with the Altmer and the Ayelids.

The Khajiit connection cannot be ignored though. Ohmes look like elves, so what the hell is up with the khajiit then if this is our standard? Are Ohmes elves and not the other strands? Can an elf be born from cat vagina? Maybe the TES VI lore will make that clear if it isn't an FPS by then.

More gondolas/spurdos pls

>>10193

>>10194

>TESO had horns

They had the weird deformities and horns in Morrowind, too. Oblivion and Skyrim then shit on everything and pulled them back to basically Daggerfall wood elves that just look like Legolas. Thanks, Bethesda. Thanks.

>>9697

>Why are the rules set up by the Aedra more meaningful or more morally correct than those set up by the daedra

Because the aedra invent shit and the daedra plagiarize and steal from the aedra's work like a bunch of cosmic Hlaalus.

>>10222

>The Khajiit were supposedly created before the Elves

That's not what it says. Khajiit were created from a proto-bosmeri stock that chaotically switched forms from beast to man shapes. Yffre made the Bosmer by messing around with this stock in imitation of what Azurah did to create the Khajiit and presumably the Ayleid are another strain of this race that had less control enforced over their forms considering the regular hints that they had the features of birds.