/tg/ - Traditional Games

>heroic puppy games

I hope you suffocate on that dick in your mouth. Having to reroll because some mook gets a crit before you even have a turn to do anything isn't fun

>>215711

>What do you think the pitfalls are?

Fantasy Craft's biggest pitfall is Vitality bloat. Otherwise, the Vitality and Wound mechanic works fine, it's just that some classes end up with this massive impenetrable wall of vitality that they can just sit in the middle of a massive battlefield allowing every enemy to hit them every single turn, and then still take the time on their turn to drop each one.

It's compounded by the mechanic that makes it so only certain types of enemies can score crits and hit wounds.

Otherwise, if Vitality is kept at reasonable amounts, it can work great.

>>215768

Yep. Fatigue's a big deal in GURPS; you can actually work yourself to death, or die from exhaustion. It's why fatigue damage abilities often cost more than normal damage.

>>215772

>It's compounded by the mechanic that makes it so only certain types of enemies can score crits and hit wounds.

Where in the hell is this a mechanic? The last times I played Star Wars d20 Revised (which used the same Vitality and Wounds system), you very much could be crit-blasted by a Joe Schmuck Stormtrooper. And if the enemy in question was a Jedi/Sith of 6th+ level, you might as well have kissed your character goodbye (since those bastards got free damage dice when using lightsabers.)

>>215711

>General discussion of damage systems

Two in particular stand as my favorites when it comes to damage systems: L5R and the Fantasy Flight 40K RPGs.

I like L5R's because the Wound Ranks and increasing penalties really put the pressure on for the players to secure a quick and strategic victory. Smart players wind up having more mindfulness to alternative strategies than just "hit with my katana again." Grappling, in particular, can be really killer, since it sets the enemy up for other players to really pummel on them due to the really lowered Armor TN. Beware the Crab or Lion sporting a Mancatcher.

I generalize the FF 40K RPGs since they all use the same system, but the low amount of Wounds that a character can receive before having significant limb damage really spices up the combat, as a GM. Much like with L5R's system, it makes the players fight smart. The guy who doesn't learn fast to dive for cover once the guns come out is as good as dead. Especially when shotguns get involved.

>>215905

Fantasy Craft is not Star Wars d20 revised, that's why.

When building NPCs with FC's amazing NPC building rules, there is a feature you can add to NPCs that allows them to score crits. This ability is intentionally absent on most enemies because it's kind of bullshit for the minor imp mook or the wild dog to score a crit and punch out all of the Hero's blood and end them in one hit.

The ability to crit is meant to be restricted to special NPCs (your named baddies and legendary monsters) and especially dangerous foes, but not everything the players can fight.

This would be fine if certain classes didn't have so much fucking vitality that you never touch their wounds.

>>215799

Fatigue as a concept is generally rolled into HP. There's a reason that most GM guides will politely remind you that taking damage doesn't equate to being cut or stabbed. If your burly fighter has 80 HP and gets hit for 1 damage, he didn't get a super tiny paper cut. The other guy attacked him and took some mild damage, or whatever.

This is actually the exact reason why wound-based damage and fatigue can't exist as part of the exact same system (you can have both wounds and fatigue, but not fatigue-wound). If your guy gets shanked in the leg and has a hard time hobbling around, that should worsen over the flow of combat. Less energy and more wounds in other areas should make it harder to act on a wounded leg, even if no precise wounds are taken or if the wounds are in entirely unrelated areas. You could combine the two by making any kind of damage to one area of the body very lightly affect every other (ie: being stabbed in the arm for "6" makes you take "1" in other areas) but then you'd have an extremely complicated, esoteric system. If taking damage requires you to adjust half a dozen different numbers, there's probably too much crunch involved. Distinguishing fatigue and making it impact wounds is mathematically simpler.

>>215936

>(you can have both wounds and fatigue, but not fatigue-wound)

…huh?

>If your guy gets shanked in the leg and has a hard time hobbling around, that should worsen over the flow of combat. Less energy and more wounds in other areas should make it harder to act on a wounded leg, even if no precise wounds are taken or if the wounds are in entirely unrelated areas.

Fantasy Craft, again, does this by tracking lethal damage against vitality/wounds and subdual damage with damage saves. Failing damage saves inflicts the graded fatigued condition that gives cumulative penalties to any rolls using physical attributes. Kind of sounds like what you're talking about. Lethal damage has no effect on a character's ability to function until their vitality runs out, at which point they gain a grade of fatigued and only have wound points left (which unlike vitality do not scale with level). In this system, vitality represents something like fighting spirit, which allows them to avoid serious injury. Subdual damage represents a combination of debilitating (but not lethal) injuries and fatigue. As for your leg wound example, there's also the bleeding condition, which characters can gain if they fail a save against certain weapons/attacks. Bleeding characters suffer subdual damage every round, unless they act during the round in which case they suffer lethal damage.

Polite sage for double post.

>>215711

>I personally think they are good for separating "real" damage from "combat" damage.

1) What sense does this make?

2) You know how it's done in Alternity?

>>217625

How is it done in Alternity?

>>217626

There are 3 tracks:

Stun, Wound, and Mortal (=Wound/2).

"Heavier": tracks also cause secondary damage on "lighter" tracks.

But also, a weapon has 3 damage values depending on degree of success.

The thing is, it's scalable with size category corresponding to a weapon and creature/vehicle - you only have to move it up/down a damage track by 1 step, then by 2… This means buckshot usually only annoys an elephant, but no one have to use 100d20 for heavy weapons, either.

Not as straightforward as D&D 2+, but both better detailed in simple situation and cleaner on greater scale.

Look on alternityrpg.net - they have some free stuff, from modern fast-play to Warships.

>>222192

Interesting. I'll look. Thanks.

I'm working on a system right now where you got wounds and fatigue.

Fatigue is a track (like hp in DnD), wound are either 3 possible values for each body zone.

You take fatigue (or Trauma) for non-crippling hits (like getting punched in the face). If you run out of fatigue, you're out cold.

You get wounds for stuff that locally impedes the function of a limb, like getting a hit on your arm with a baseball bat which breaks bones. Each body zone starts of at not-wounded, then gets wounded and then crippled.

A wounded body part gives a penalty on all checks. The penalty worsens if you're below 2/3rds and 1/3rd of fatigue respectively. If the body part is crippled, you cant use it at all. If your head or torso gets crippled, you're dead.

This is very easy to keep track of, as you just need a place to write your fatigue and a little body diagram on your char sheet where you cross out body parts as they get wounded.

Also, this allows lots of different special attacks that cripple/wound specific body parts etc.

Combat&Tactics (AD&D2.5) had Fatigue Points already. But no extra tracks - it's either generic HP or functional damage (on critical hit only) like bleeding and fractures.

Oh, there's also Iridium system from HinterWelt Enterprises (core is free).

>using HP in the first place

Well there's your problem!

Best solution is what Mutants and Masterminds does:

>no HP

>you take "damage" from failing your save against a damage effect

>failing by 4 or less just gives you a -1 penalty to damage saves until recovery

>failing by 5-9 degrades your performance the next round in addition to the penalty

>failing by 10-14 gives lasting penalties and penalty against future attack and if you take it twice in the same encounter you KO

>failing by 15 or more is a KO

>nameless, unimportant goons instantly KO/Die if they fail by even 1 and can't critical hit

Some of the specifics, like 2nd degree failures having no lasting penalty and how hard it is to 1HKO an ordinary person if they have a name, should be changed if the system is adapted to other genres, but it's pretty solid.