/tg/ - Traditional Games

Little bump to take this out of 404 hell.

Going by earlier editions, it's a bit more complicated.

You see, when a soul of a Chaotic Evil being dies and goes to the Abyss (without being claimed by a CE god) it becomes a larva, a 5' yellow worm with the head of what it used to be. They are then judged based on their past lives by the Nalfeshnee, a group of very powerful demons, and turn into either of three forms:

- Those with the least promise become Manes, and will serve as cannon fodder in the Blood War. They are not considered to be "real" demons.

- The more evil ones that show the signs they can grow are turned into Dretches, who are real (but the lowest-ranking) demons.

- The proudest and most evil spirits that need to learn humilty are turned into Rutterkin, beings more powerful than the above two but the most despised of all of them.

To grow and transform as a demon you need to convince both yourself and those around you that you deserve this power. You can't just go around and claim you're badass enough to be a Marilith: you have to show that you are. As you grow you can eventually become any type of demon you want, if you got the power to reach that position.

As for gender: demons can change their gender at will. As they age and grow they tend to grow to favor a particular gender (or lack thereof), but this is because of urges and desires rather than any order.

So why are female Marilith more common? Maybe Marilith just gravitate towards femininity. Or maybe female demons gravitate towards Marilith-hood. Or maybe it's a coincidence. Or maybe male Marilith exist but the female Marilith have been around since the beginning and WotC doesn't want to turn them male and rob many players of their fapbait. They're demons, there is no sense.

>>225953

>>226035

This idea reminds me of those threads where people designed demons based on their personal sins and interests.

>>225953

> genderbending

I guess the 'Coast' is a magical realm at times.

>>226035

If you wanna go with some Planescape / 3.Xe lore, the Mariliths are more focused on "organizing" things than the other demons. They're the generals of the Blood War, masters of planning, strategy and kicking your face in if you don't listen to their orders. And it's much easier to organize a bunch of CE demons if you're looking like a hot snake woman that can easily kill them if she feels like it.

And if you throw in the Obyriths, you could make the case that the Mariliths are kin to Succubi (both are female-looking demons). The Obyriths, when they first encountered the embodiments of mortal sins (Succubi as the embodiment of lust) were puzzled because they couldn't understand how mortal minds work. So they experimented on them, and voila, the Mariliths were born. It could explain why their greatest lust is battle - the Obyriths took the primordial Succubi and turn them into war-loving giant snake ladies.

>>226059

>>225953

>>226035

Hell, it's even more complicated than that:

Most demons in the earlier editions did not have names for their type, but rather operated under the "Type" names. There were Demon Princes of course, and specific demons such as Succubi, but most were classified solely by their type.

Type I, Type II, and Type III demons were much simpler varieties in terms of mentality. Type IV were greater lords, with Nalfeshnee being one of the most powerful among them, while Type V ranked even higher still, with Marilith being the greatest of them.

Type VI demons were a small group of elite demons, initially numbering six, with the most powerful of their group being named Balor. They were later expanded to be much greater in number, with groups of them serving under the Princes.

Another thing to note, along this line, is the connecting between demons and undead. While some undead were animated (skeletons, zombies) or self-made (liches), many of the powerful undead, such as ghasts, were the products of demons creating them and unleashing them in the world. Others, like death knights, were created by the Demon Princes (Demogorgon, in this case).

An army of demons, then, would look less like a horde of demons, and more like maybe a couple hundred demons leading an endless horde of the undead.

>>226067

Well, to continue on the link between the demons and undead, Orcus is the Demon Prince of Undeath and has been since forever. It's said that he actually was a mortal man once, and that his rotten soul ended up as a Mane ( see >>226035 ) in the Abyss after he died. Then he managed to climb up to the ranks of Demon Lord and reclaim his old power over undeath.

I read somewhere some fluff (I think it's fanmade, but it's still a pretty neat idea) that his mortal form is actually responsible for corrupting the original concept behind necromancy (as the tool to heal and communicate with the dead) into its current, unholy form. That explains why Clerics have Necromancy responsible for resurrecting and healing shit, besides it being responsible for countless undead horrors.

>>226068

Thats really fucking badass. Link to the lore?

D&D demons and devils are amusingly weird in that their physical form is a function of rank and status as much as anything.

Has the interesting consequence that it's common for Devils to arrange for an ambitious inferior to be 'promoted' to a more physically powerful but less intelligent form, so they make a better vassal but pose less of a threat to their power.

>>226174

The Obyrith part is in Dragon 353.

The Orcus part is from Dicefreaks:

http://www.worldsofimagination.co.uk/monster%20Demon%20Prince%20Orcus.htm

>>226211

For devils the whole thing is a matter of learning what it means to be LE. Similar thing goes for Yugoloth and NE.

For demons it's more like the more CE you are, the more badass your form is.

>>226223

Nah, it's "the stronger you are, the more badass your form is". The Abyss is the ultimate proving ground - you either adapt and overcome, or you die. It has nothing to do with how CE you are.

It's even hinted in the Faces of Evil that the Abyss itself will throw shit in your face in order to get you to become stronger. Survival of the fittest and all that. The more self-sufficient and adaptable you are, the stronger you become.

If you wanna go philosophical on that shit, LE is outwards-focused (use others to advance your goals) while CE is inwards-focused (the world is your enemy, you don't need anyone besides yourself).

So, I gotta ask: why can't there be demons of both genders? I know Marilith are depicted as female, Balor generally implied to be male and then you got succubi/incubi. But what about the others? I mean for demons the change might as well mostly be cosmetic anyway but why not crazy stalker yandere Babau or at ugly bitch Nalfeshnee?

>>226269

But there are. Demons can be male, female, both or neither and can change whenever they want to. As demons get older they tend to grow a preference to one gender.

We don't get art for all those because having four times the art for the same demons is a waste of money on WotC's end.

>>226270

>But there are.

They exist? I wasn't sure, the lore seems kinda fuzzy on wether or not most demon species even hav a gender.

>>226269

For demons? They can change stuff like gender at will, since they're fucking chaos incarnate. So it's entirely possible to have an ugly bitch Nalfeshnee one day, that evolves into a horny balor tomorrow.

Devils tend to be more static in stuff like that, since once they identify as some gender they stick to that shit. Hell, half the pit-fiends in the Dark Eight are female.

>>226223

Yuggoloths are more about being the biggest laziest paranoid Jews, and Devils it's all about procedures. Even the parts where they screw you over is procedural, so much so that it's a mystery to me why LE places do not equally emphasize Law and Evil. If jaywalking is illegal in a LE city you bet your ass Demons are going to take that shit seriously if you don't exploit a loop hole or worse, you don't care.

>>226272

Faces of Evil is pretty clear on the subject.

>>226273

Devils have their gender assigned upon being promoted to a form that has a gender. As they move up they can be assigned a new gender because they have stuff to learn.

>>226276

True, my bad.

They can be either male, female or neither - depending on what gender their superiors assigned to them depending on their past actions. Only pit fiends can choose what gender they want to be. And once a pit fiend reaches nobility, they get locked into one gender and form forever.

>>226068

That actually gives a pretty good idea for another way to immortality. We already know that there are ways in D&D to store your soul forever, or to store your magical abilities.

What about a mortal mage who worked his whole life, rather than going for lichdom, to store his full magical power in a vessel, knowing that he would eventually die and be brought down to hell as a larva to be turned into either manes or a lesser demon? He would find some small plane on the Abyss, and trigger the power to return to his soul the moment it, in any form, entered into that realm.

With all of his power and memories returned, he could quickly elevate his diminished form into a greater variety of demon, possibly even molding himself into a unique form, and setting himself on an accelerated pace towards becoming a Demon Prince.

Within the story, you could have something like this: Players learn early on a story about a group of many centuries earlier, who had defeated a powerful arch-mage who had summoned demons and raised armies of the dead to damage the kingdom. According to the legend, in his death, he made a prophecy that he would return - and the world would fall under his power. And over the decades which followed, the party which defeated him began to go missing.

Over the course of the campaign, his sigil and other shit begins to appear, and a cult develops under him. More than that, strange new varieties of demons begin to appear. In time, players meet with a dwarven member of the original party, the last one left alive, and learn that these are the same signs.

Further, it turns out that their party was never really that powerful - in fact, the elf makes note that the mage seemed far too weak, having been wielding magic items more powerful than his own spells - by that logic, he should have had an easy victory. Something had gone wrong. In the years that followed, he went into hiding in the dwarven lands the players find him in, as his companions began to go missing. As the story continues, the other members of the party are met as strange demon-constructs powered by gems with the trapped souls of the original heroes powering them.

The current party, by this point, is now much greater in power than the original one, and begin to deal with the mortal followers of the new Demon Prince. Further, they begin to learn of his origin. Eventually, they make plans with the king ruling over the land to lead a large force against the leader of cult - only to be betrayed, as the ranking officials of the local military are members of the cult, and sealed away in a large dungeon filled with demons and other stuff. They are forced to make their way through the darkness which was the former lair of the Demon Prince while he was still a mortal. At the end, they are pitted in combat against a fight way beyond their means against a Iron Golem powered by the soul of the now deceased dwarf from the former party, only to be aided by a group of lower-level but still competent NPCs. They reveal themselves to be followers of a Daemon-cult, who are worried about the possible imbalance caused by the forces of Chaotic Evil being so heavily bolstered, and the possible chaos within the Abyss of a new Prince.

Either with or without their help (without being significantly more difficult), players find out the king has been replaced by an illusion maintained by the new Demon Prince. They confront him, expecting to meet the cult leader - only to find the Demon Prince has already been partially summoned, with the king being a manifestation of his mortal powers while his body prepares to fully emerge from the abyss.

Players (hopefully) manage to beat him back in his current state - if they do not, he manifests fully, and it is very likely an early game over. If they do, his return is averted temporarily, giving them time to rally the defenses, as the leaders of the demon cult retreat to their fortress.

It is brought to the players attention that there is no easy way to destroy a Demon Prince - thus, they are forced to either seek sage advice, or are provided the necessary knowledge by their allies, to seek out a relic which will permanently bind a single extraplanar being to the world, limiting their powers in the process, and making it possible to destroy them without heading into the Abyss.

From there, the story can go:

> Find the relic. This involves encounter a powerful angel - who may possibly persuaded to give it over, unbinding himself, or may simply be defeated in battle and the relic taken by force. With the relic, the party may attack the enemy at the height of their power, but also defeat the Demon Prince forever within the Prime Material plane.

> Attack directly. This means that the enemy may not have their defenses fully prepared, meaning less demons summoned and so on, but the only way to defeat the enemy is by entering into the Abyss, and defeating the Demon Prince permanently there.

>>226288

The issue with that is that, when a mortal does end up in the Abyss, he usually ends up as a mane or a larva. Not really demon lord material.

That also reminds me of an old story from the WotC forums. Some trader ends up killing his daughter because she brought shame to his family by messing around with a low-birth commoner. His wife soon kills herself as well. Grief-stricken, he makes a deal with a devil to take away his memories. The devil obliges, and soon arranges for the mortal to die.

The trader's soul ends up in Baator, and after centuries of torture and hard work ends up as a pit fiend. Then the same devil appears to him, and gives him his mortal memories back.

The pit fiends basically ends up confused as shit, since he remembers how much he loved his daughter, how much he cared for his wife, all the good stuff. So he volunteers for the Blood War, simply so his colleagues don't see how messed up he is and so they don't remove him.

You could make something like that. A pit fiend comes to the world and starts fucking everything up in a futile attempt to rid himself of his memories as a human being. You could either kill him (which will result in him returning to the Nine Hells only to try again later) or reform him (in which case you have a LG pit fiend running around trying to make amends and being overly protective of kids).

>>226291

A mane or a larva is not demon lord material - but a mane or larva with all of the powers and memories of a Level 20+ arch-mage is much greater in power than any lesser demons, save the most powerful. From there, it's only a matter of rising in power through the realms.

A bit of a tangent I know, but mariliths in particular bring up an annoyance I have about illustrations of devils, demons and such: They always have the naughty bits covered. I don't so much mind because of the need for porn, it just seems silly that literally Evil with a capital E beings from alien societies in alternate dimensions, for whom being Evil is a way of life with every crime and sin that the word entails, would really care about nudity. "Sure, I'll lie, cheat, steal, and torture anyone weaker than me to death for fun, but show some nipple? I have standards!"

And yeah, I know, nudity wouldn't fly in the marketing context and all, I know that's why the monsters gotta cover up. The mismatch between the visual presentations and the concepts they're representing remains regardless.

>>226715

I'm pretty sure Book of Vile Darkness has naked demons and blood and guts everywhere. Even the Dragon (or Dungeon, can't remember from the top of my head) magazine had a naked nymph as art.

It also had a necrophiliac undead succubus whose favorite way of killing you is to fuck you and then show you her real form - that of a rotting corpse - until you die from a heart attack. Silly as fuck, which is why I love it.

>>226725

Really? I've heard of it many times but I've never actually read it. Still, when you say "naked demons," do you mean actually visible genitals and/or female nipples? Or is there always something conveniently in the way other than clothing, or the crotches are in full view but there's not really anything there, or that sort of thing? Just curious how far they went with it.

Also that succubus things sounds fun (in an over the top horrible kind of way,) but also like another example of stuff they will write and/or imply but never actually illustrate. And that's basically my issue - the gap between what they'll write about and what they'll illustrate. If you ask me, if it's okay to talk about it, it should be okay to show it. Or vice-versa. One of those standards needs to match the other.