Board assets, rules and banners!
Alright anons, in order to make /vn/ feel more like home I have created this thread for everyone to discuss what they would like to see from /vn/.
I suggest we could start off by editing the files on the left so we'll have a more unique feel to the board.
"File Deleted" must be 140 x 50
"No File" must be 500 x 500
"Spoiler" must be 128 x 128
If any of you want have some good ideas for any board rules (to added or taken away) feel free to speak your mind and if the majority likes your idea I'll be sure to make the changes.
Also be sure to submit any banners you have designed. (Need to be 300 x 100)
Rules, Reccomendations, and Important Shit
Welcome to /vn/!
Chill with us at IRC! irc.rizon.net #/vn/
I'm sorry for the IRCs recent emptiness. I will be on the IRC chat whenever I can if you have any questions. Check between 5pm-10pm (UTC-6), I will try to always be on then. -Vernyy (Верный)
Rules
>Global rules apply.
>No shitposting and no spamfucking the board.
- funposting =/= shitposting
>One "Recommendation thread" at a time.
- Check the catalog before making one.
>Porn and lewd have to be spoilered.
- Shota/Loli is allowed, keep it spoilered.
>Board is 18+. Keep that in mind.
- If you are underage, don't tell us and don't act like an underage tit who screams like a little faggot in the shops when his mummy doesn't buy him sweeties.
>Visual Novels and Dating Sims/Games with VN elements are allowed
- This of course includes games like the Rance series or Tokimeki
About VNs/FAQ
>What is /vn/?
Above all it is a place for people who share a common interest to discuss visual novels and visual novel-related topics.
>What are Visual Novels?
Visual Novels (VNs) are a media type directly spawned from anime and manga. They are defined as a book in which sprites are used to show emotion with pictures in the background showing the setting. All VNs have music and effect sounds and most have voices. Text is generally given to the reader in small sections and require you to click choices to further the story. Some VNs have branching stories that can become extremely complex depending on the novel (A good example of a cluster-fuck story is Fate/Stay Night). Eroge is a type of VN that are for adult audiences and usually portray sexual themes.
Below are some websites dedicated to Visual Novels and some recommendations for those who are new to the genre.
Recommended websites for learning more and downloaded VNs
nyaa.se - The first place one should look for torrents and various weeb shit. Nyaa.se is the safe for work version and sukebei.nyaa.se is the r-18 version.
VNDB.org - A large database of released and in the making VNs and Eroge.
fuwanovel.org - A repository of VNs that provides download links. (RIP)
mofu.moe - Everything from the old fuwanovel for free.
visualnovelaer.fuwanovel.org - A development blog-esque website that shows currently being translated visual novels.
Erogedownload.com - A website that provides easy downloads for Eroge (NSFW VNs)
http://visual-novels-general.wikia.com/wiki/Visual_Novels_General_Wiki - Old 4chan Visual Novel Wiki
There are also a few subreddits and blogs and fuwanovel has a VN forum if those are your thing.
The owner of /vn/ (Grand) has not been seen in 22 weeks. There have been only two volunteers. One of them, Amouros, hasn't been sighted in over 60 weeks. I am Beph (the stickyguy) and I claimed the board. So until Grand shows up to take over again, I'll take care of /vn/.
Grand if you still have interest in ownership of this board please email me at ikilledjoe69@gmail.com
Developer General
Working on a VN?Needing help with Ren'Py?
Want someone to test a beta?
Art needing critiqued?
Get it all here!
Grisaia series
I've postponed this for a long time now and decided it's finally time to read the first Grisaia. Which translated version is least censored (preferably no removed or modified scenes/CG)? I keep hearing of Sekai's jewish business practices and pro-censorship which is why I'm curious if it's better or worse compared to "old" translation patch.
How valuable is it to you that the protagonist in a VN is their own distinct character and not just easy to self-insert into?
Come join /a/'s unofficial discord server! Chat with other people from /a/, hang out, and play some vidya with us!
https://discord.gg/0knoorV2LIZQHsUV
We have a separate chat for eroge too.
NEKOPARA REVIEW
So I just started doing Nekopara, aka neko paradise.
And my cock is hard as diamonds
>YouTube OP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-2GLj9Ewxo
>torrent link
it's pretty innovative, the characters aren't just 2d pictures slapped on top of a background. They move and even lip sync to every line of dialogue. it's not awkward looking 3D cgi anime girls either. It really did well with the graphics and overcoming the uncanny valley with 2D/3D animation. I highly reccomend. From what I understand there's a non h version….
but fuck non h
The story goes, a few sexually frustrated scientists invented nekogirls through gene alteration. They are culturally accepted as pets, and the nekogirls accept that role and really have no desire to go all SJW and demanding neko girl rights. They have subhuman intelligence, act catlike, but can be trained to do simple things like cooking, cleaning, etc. The neko girls fully embrace their life as pets, and even go on walks n shit.
it's apparently taboo to have sexual relations with your neko girls
and they really don't understand much about sex until it's "mating season", where they get urges they don't understand. So you get to steal their innocence away. Lucky you.
Despite the clearly unrealistic scenario, the game interjects enough realistic scenarios that thankfully make you forgot about being a total fucking degenerate for playing a vn about cat girls. Sick fucks. Relating to the main character is easy, he isn't some beta bitch who's all like u-uh are you sure this kind of thing is okay?? I… I never thought you liked me that way… neko-senpai
Nah, the MC is a man of conviction and morals, with a get er done attitude and fantastic work ethic. Sorry, NEETS. I never liked you anyway. Also worth mentioning, the sex scenes I feel are decently spaced out. I won't tell you how many there are, but it's not like rapid fire on your dick. There's plenty of story and muh feels in between so your dick has time to recuperate.
fuck you, imouto paradise. My dick couldent handle it.
YOU CAN REALLY TELL HOW MUCH EFFORT WAS PUT INTO THE CREATION OF THIS VN
So if you've always wanted to have a submissive cat girl unconditionally love you like a true pet that you can fuck, I highly reccomend this game.
Tldr, fuck neko, get currency
I rate 9/10
What VN's are there in which I get raped
Not really a VN but MGQ made me want more.
Umineko
I'm planning to go through this pretty soon; what are your thoughts on it? I don't know pretty much anything about this series, so please keep that in mind. But it's looked interesting to me, and I plan to play it as soon as Nyaa stops getting DDoS'd.
Thinking about trying Yume Miru Kusuri, opinions, suggestions?
Nasuverse thread, anyone? I've been reading pic related. I just raped Arceuid and I don't know what the fuck is going on.
What dating sims are there that could be played with someone else at the same time? Messaging each other back and forth to compare notes over a third party service, like steam or skype, would be fine.
Rance General Thread
Only best girls allowed
So anons, what you currently reading?
What are you current thoughts on it?
Would you recommend it to others?
muv luv
MuvLuv, anyone?
Recently finished Alternative. That was one hell of a ride.
Alright /vn/, I got a question.
How do I translate a VN?
I don't mean learning moon or anything. What I want is to be able to patch PC, PSP, and PS2 games so I and other fans of those VNs can play them.
Is there a process or a guide out there somewhere on how to do it?
Groupees Bundle
Grab your own before they run out. You need MangaGamer account to claim the games.
- The Great Invention of the Sexy Era
- Magical Teacher: My Teacher's a Mage?
- Conquering the Queen
- Cosplay Alien
- Hypno-Training My Mother and Sister
Katawa Shoujo Thread
No Katawa Shoujo thread on /vn/, i am disappoint. It's a great starter vn, written by halfchan.
hanako is best girl
What VNs have the Best Lolis?
Doesn't have to be nude or anything. Just adorable as all fuck.
Fate/stay Night Realta Nua censorship
Hey /vn/. I decided to read Fate/stay night finally, but ran into a bunch of problems.
The translation for Realta Nua seems to be suffering from SJWs, as they are complaining about sexist Shirou and want a non-H version.
I heard Realta Nua has extra content but I'd rather not play if I have to play it censored. How can I get the best non-censored F/SN experience?
Eien no Aselia
Translation with loli tentacle rape and other cut scenes included when? Regret buying it already.
Christmas sales
…are they all scams? ONE game with 4$ discount, really??
Euphoria
>Promotional movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvcxAttbydM
Is anyone playing this?
What are your thoughts?
Theories?
Best Girl?
So Little Busters! Ecstasy will not be getting an English TL by anybody.
So no 18+ version of the game, since they're releasing an all-ages version on the censorshit loving Steam.
This annoys me…
VN studios
So what's your favourite VN studio and some good VNs of theirs?
pics are some of the few studios I'm aware of
Code: Realize
Anyone put any time into this yet?
Yume Miru Kusuri
Do you guys like this VN? I swore while I was reading it that it was supposed to be a deconstruction of a VN, like it was trying to make a statement about how unhealthy a relationship like this would be. On the Aeka route the mc nearly throws his life away for this one seriously messed up girl that guilts him into dating her and they have a relationship almost entirely based on sex. And then that ending, jesus fucking christ. Granted I only did the one route but what do you guys think?
Best Ren'Py VN
What's the best VN ever made with Ren'Py (besides KS)?
Looking for recommendations.
Horror VNs
Post, discuss, or recommend Horror VNs here.
http://nichegamer.com/2015/09/sekai-project-announces-first-original-game-japanese-school-life/
WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS
VN reviews
Is there any problem if I write out reviews of VNs in this thread? I don't like having blogs of any kind or exposing my identity (which kills away fuwanovel and /r/visualnovels for discussions), and the half chan threads move too fast for me to be able to have something like this. This is the perfect place for it, as it's slow and comfy. I know enough japanese to read VNs so I'm always going through something new, so it's not like I'll make posts about the same VNs everyone has read already (although I will make a few like that, sorry). I just like typing a lot when I talk about what I like , so I thought it would be useful to have a thread like this.
Big Sails, Tiny Jibs
I am working on a (Visual Novel Game), for mature audiences. I refuse to say "adults" or "not for minors", because that is not what it is for.The game/novel, starts by asking you what the legal age of consent is, in your country/area, followed by asking you your age. This covers other locations where limits are less restricted. While, at the same time, if desired, it allows some self-inflicted mature perversion.
Other than that, it will ask you to name the protagonist male character, who is the main character, obviously.
Now, with that out of the way… I will attempt to describe the game/novel. (Please comment or pry my brain, if desired.)
As the subject above reads, "Big Sails, Tiny Jibs" is the current working title. It is a bit of a play on words, in many ways. Literally, the story takes place, for the majority of events, on a cruise-ship. However, for reasons later explained, it has the appearance of an older pirate-ship or frigate. To be more specific, it has the form of a similar ship, given to the U.S. Government, titled "The U.S.S. Constitution". This too, has an internal meaning within the game. There is a lot of those hidden meanings scattered throughout the game, actually. Pic related, that is the ship I am building.
While aboard this ship, under the premise that you have "won a trip, to be a judge, on a private island"… But no insight about what you are judging, or where the island is, and being told not to inquire about it… You are left to your own vices, and the vices of the ships other occupants.
The story, depending how it is played, can unfold into a full-fledged, "no-holds-barred" sexual orgy of sorts, or you could turn the protagonist into a full "White-knight", choir-boy.
There are many taboos that are only perceptual taboos, and some that you may accidentally participate in, not realizing they are taboo, until the deeds have been completed. Such as, thinking you are sleeping with a minor, but later finding-out they are not, or vice-versa, sleeping with someone you think is of-age, but they turn-out not being of age. (Then there are ones where you are just left wondering, because it never does more than imply, "who did what".)
Pure family entertainment for all ages, I am sure. JK
However, I am now reaching a point of "saturation" of duties which is interfering with production of the game/novel. The game was originally going to have everyone fully dynamic, to adjust for those selected ages, mentioned above. However, that was really becoming more than I could handle. I have since just made specific components of the game/novel, take those into consideration, in the dialogue.
Then, the next wall I hit, was in the 3D component. I can puke-out detailed 3D worlds without any problem, but even this small ship has a lot of detail. However, the 3D models of people, which I have access to, is detracting from the environment, the story and the game/novel as a whole. They just look derpy, all because of shitty hair in DAZ3D Studio. (Originally I was going to attempt the dynamic stuff with loli-style art and something more like flash-style vector art, over the 3D environment.)
This hurdle has left me with two production choices.
1: Don't draw any people. Use creative shadows on the environment to "imply" what is being done, as described in the text.
2: Use "shadow cut-outs", blurred silhouettes of people, as shadows or actually rendered, but devoid of all details. This, allowing your brain to fill-in the details or beauty or actions.
3: Just use faces with the text, and associated expressions to match the text dialogue. Keeping the background of just the 3D scenery, for deeper visualization. Still allowing the reader to use imagination to visualize the actual interactions.
The wording should be more than adequate, the way I write, for your mind to easily fill the voids.
Any thoughts, suggestions, considerations, or volunteers to possibly assist me with the creation of this? I do still need a lot of individual "scenes" written-out, which are non-detrimental fill-in, for the main story. (The game aspect of the novel.)
Kamidori
>Ctrl+F Kamidori>0 results
Just me then?
So /vn/, as a newbie I understand that most VNs feature romance for route divergence, but aren't necessarily about them at the core. Are there any VNs which don't involve love interests at all in that? Like, instead of the routes being 'Girl 1', 'Girl 2' or 'Girl 3' , they're 'Surfboarding' or 'Hiking' or 'Track and field'?
Sorry if I'm being unclear here. I suppose my basic question is if there's any VNs that give so little a shit about romance/following a girl that they don't even do that.
Nukige Let's Plays/Walkthroughs
Hey there /vn/, is there any website where I can watch uncensored Let's Plays/Walkthroughs of pornographic visual novels?
Help
Getting into these Mongolian Manuscripts. I just finished Katawa Shoujo, but i've been informed that it is bad (I liked it, but the general consensus seems to be that it's bad).
Do you guys have any suggestions for someone trying to get into VN's? Thanks.
Pic related
VN art appreciation thread
ITT we post our favorite artwork / backgrounds / character designs.
I'll start.
Visual Novel Localization General
What visual novels would you like to see localized by MangaGamer or whatever other online retailer you use?
For example, I myself would like to see the second and third pics related (already have the first pic related) get localized due to the fact that they take place in the same universe according to the vndb.
Now that I've thrown in my two cents, feel free to do the same as well.
Reading Japanese VNs for PSP on PC
Hey guys, I just thought I'd let you know of a tutorial I made for hooking the text of a PSP Japanese game so as to read it with Translation Aggregator. This time is Idolm@ster SP (which is kinda a VN), this is for the untranslated routes. I finally found a way to hook this game without breaking the emulator. Just me and my obsession about hooking the text of untranslated VNs/games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs23c20IW2I
My main purpose is to show that it's possible to play untranslated VNs/games for PSP and maybe other consoles.
By the way, I'm currently trying to hook the text of… PSX Japanese visual novels/ games lol. I'm having some degree of success, just using Translation Aggregator's built-in SJIS to HEX (and vice versa) conversion function and Cheat Engine and DxH, a couple of hex editors following this method http://heartnokuni.livejournal.com/70323.html
I don't know shit about programming and next to nothing about rom hacking, only some Japanese, but I guess some rom hacking knowledge will come in handy for me and I'm currently trying to learn a bit more about it (I feel lost about how to properly start learning though).
Majikoi Thread
Where's the love for Majikoi you degenerate negroids.
Save File for Yuuko route in MLU
Hello, folks.So, because Muv-Luv absolutely refuses to get through the credit sequence without crashing, I'm hoping someone here has a save file for Yuuko-sensei's route. I want to see it before moving on to Alternative.
Found this link with some HTML5 converted novels, so I thought I would share with you, guys:
VN Help?
So I'm trying to find a good site to download VN's from, but all I keep finding are sites that redirect you to a file server that requires payment. Any help with this?
Need something good
Alright /vn/, I need something good, something so lewd that it will drain my balls. It doesnt have to be in english, as long as the nipponese doesnt get in the way of making choices and getting to the good stuff.
Nekopara drained me pretty well, Imouto Paradise was too much lewd I almost broke my dick.
I know you wont fail me /vn/, hep me get off tonight
Any of you using Linux + Wine?
I'm using Minimalist Linux to boost the performance of this shitty laptop because XP wont install.
What are some good translated VN's with a Linux version or ones that will work good on wine? The only one I've tried with wine so far is Higurashi, which works fine with a font fix.
Dividead
Have any of you tried this VN?Dividead is a rather cheesy gem among visual novels. Because not only does it feature some silly ghost sex scenes among the others, it's also possibly the first doujin that was ever translated in English and sold to a western audience.
Strangely enough, it is also the only doujin with an English translated Dreamcast version that you can burn to a disk and play. So if theres any Dreamcast fans here, here's something you might want to try.
Thread for Japanese VNs, for people who know Japanese.
Romance
I need some romance in my life.
Any good recommendations on a decent romance VN?
Preferably straight.
CANNONBALL ～ねこねこマシン猛レース！～
Anyone here played Cannonball? If so, what did you think of it?
I kinda felt that the true ending was a bit weak, but I enjoyed it overall. Had some nice sci-fi references in it and entertaining characters. Probably going to do a third playthrough for the in-race communications and lore explanations.
KS thread I guess
Does Emi cheat on you? Hivemind says so.
I've read F/SN and seen Fate Zero, but nothing further that that. I made an attempt at downloading Ataraxia, but something went wrong, and it isn't working. I don't understand a lot of computer stuff, so I'm not really sure what went wrong. Is it possible to download it without downloading extra stuff that complicates it further? Thanks in advance. Pic unrelated.
Looking for Visual Novel artists
I'm working in a Visual Novel and I'm looking for artists for sprites, backgrounds, CG… well, everything.
Some details
>It's a short Kinectic Visual Novel, so no decisions and not too many scenarios, characters or CG
>The novel itself is ALREADY FINISHED. I've been using placeholders for the art and menus, but the entire script is already done and works perfectly. I only need to make some revisions and fix a couple things here and there, but I would like to that with finished art if possible
>The VN is mostly romantic/comedy, with some psychology and philosophy inbetween. Think of something like Oreigaru to get an idea. So I'm looking mostly for your average anime moe drawfag
>I would love to show some of the VN but I'm using Umineko placeholders and also is in spanish so… yeah
>I'm not selling it since I'm using open music (unless I get a musician too?), and it's my first project so I don't wanna be greedy. That means that I can't pay anyone for this specially considering I'm poor as fuck. I'm sorry.
Any doubt or anything you can ask, if you know Spanish then better because that way you will understand something of the VN. I wouldn't want to make a English version unless I have a good native translator with me, I wouldn't want to translate it myself to get a piece of shit.
Are there any good /sp/orts visual novels?
So since Mangagamer are still shitty jews determined to kill any hope of actual good translations of their licensed games, how has Jast been doing lately? Have they gotten any better? Last I checked they were DRM-free but still changing and censoring inane shit. Gotta know if I should pirate and buy the original Japanese games, or if some games are safe to buy in English.
>paying for visual novels
I know.
Any good Brother x Sister games you guys can recommend?
Like Imouto Paradise
i tried Secret Sorrow of the Siblings but i'm not a fan of blackmail and stuff like that so i stoped playing it
Hello, /vn/. I just wanted to let you know that I'm the new board owner of >>>/kind/, and I'd appreciate it if you'd take the time to drop in and say hello. It's not really devoted to the discussion of topics pertaining to vidya, but I think kindness is or should be a virtue valued by all, irrespective of our interests or hobbies!
Check out our vidya thread: >>>/kind/251
I'm looking for H games like Huniepop and Littlewitch Romanesque;
Sex-themed games that are Essentially visual novels, but they also have real gameplay.
I'm not big on most VNs because they're just wall-of-text simulators. but i love these games with actual gameplay and quality art work (this means no sprite rape games you found on hongfire)
Decided to share this line because I thought it was freaking hilarious.
I've started a VN General on /v/ that's really getting popular, second thread in, to try and raise some interest in your board. I really wanna see this place grow.
I told you I'd try.
And if you're here from /v/, welcome to a growing empire!
Up-Coming/News Thread
For news and generally about any games you're looking forward to.To start things off:
XBlaze is up for pre-order with new info and screenshots.
http://nichegamer.net/2015/02/xblaze-lost-memories-details-screenshots-pre-order-bonuses-and-release-date/
—
And I'm looking forward to the new UtaPri game because I'm a fag.
Three Kingdom VN
I am interested in making a VN about Three Kingdoms era. The scriptwriters are ready and I have an expert about warfare.But alas, I have no artist.
My VN is about Three Kingdoms era following the story of Cao Cao and changes the outcome of the history for a greater good.
Do /vn/ have any suggestion?
Little Witch English release Hype thread
Are you guys ready? JASTUSA is releasing the english version of Little Witch on the 16th.http://blog.jastusa.com/blog/2014/09/22/littlewitch-romanesque-available-for-preorder/
12 solo routes, a harem ending, and as much uncensored poon as you could want in a VN.
Hanakisou Torrent Location?
Hello ladies and gents.I'm on the hunt for the working torret of Hanakisou that's floating around. I lost it with the rest of my computer awhile back.
The game itself is in 10 connected rar files if it makes any difference.
The problem I'm having finding it is that most of the sites that say they have it link to other blogs in their download links instead of the actual torrent (what's us with that, anyway?). It's very frustrating.
Do any of you have it on hand?
Does /vn/ like Everlasting Summer?
Hey /vn/, how about we play a small game? We post OPs of VNs, and others who haven't read it describe what they imagine the game is about. I'll start with two famous titles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9D1rWlCWnQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJjkBXRMcxs
Guessing Game
Post lines from VNs and we guess which vn they're from they're from. I'll start.(Hint: It's doesn't have to be a GOOD VN)
Occidental VNs
Is that a thing?What's your favorite?
A VN need to be in an Anime-manga style to be called VN or be better?
Pic unrelated. I'm pretty ignorant, so I only know Katawa.
>tfw Angel beats VN finally has a release date
May 29th
http://visualnovelaer.fuwanovel.org/2014/12/angel-beats-1st-beat-visual-novel-release-date-announced-more-key-news/
Get hype
Princess Evangile
http://www.mangagamer.com/detail.php?goods_type=1&product_code=117>$40 and $45 after launch
Is it worth it, /vn/? Are we buying VNs now?
discuss
anime or manga that would make good visual novels.
pic related
Let's kick things into gear with a best girl thread.
Sailor Moon PC-Engine
Just wondering, does anyone have more information about that game?It appears to be a Visual Novel, set after Ail and Ann and before Black Moon Arcs of anime's R series (in that manner, like Another Story RPG game after S)
In the story Dark Kingdom returns, it looks like Shitennou and Senshi cooperate and Queen Beryl is redeemed at the end (as you might remember from original anime Dark Kingdom were the only villains to get killed)
Here's opening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvcVjX96OSQ
Download: http://old.sailorvgame.org/mg/au/pce.htm
D&D Girls who killed Sailors in anime seems to be connected to the main enemy of this game, who might be related to Ali and Ann's (and Fiore's) planet of origin.
You start the game as one Inner Senshi to end at the same point at the end, depending on your decisions.
It's a pearl lost in the story of SM, it was never translated (like most of PC-Engine games) and basically we don't know much of this game, I barely found it mentioned on two forums.
You can find some playthrough in Japanese on Youtube.
No, Thank You!!
It's finally out. First officially licensed BL in nearly ten years, will it save BL in the west? I fucking hope so.
>Come chill with us on our IRC! (irc.rizon.net #/vn/)
ded IRC
Board ring with /am/ /tomoko/ and /w/
Hi /vn/!It seems like board rings are going to be important:
https://8ch.net/boards/res/4539.html
I have seen other boards mentioning similar stuff too.
What do you think about this?
https://8ch.net/boards/res/4505.html
It looks like >>>/tomoko/ and >>>/w/ are on board.
What do you think?
I hope you don't mind me making this thread, my apoligies if you would rather not see this.
image VN: Yosuga no Sora
wallpaper thread up here: https://8ch.net/w/res/999.html
Who's your valentine?
Valentine's day is almost upon us, what VN will you be playing on the most romantic day of the year? Will you be trying something new, or perhaps revisiting an old favourite? I plan on going through pic related. I've had a glance at it, and I think I'll try my luck with Saint Olga since she is clearly the best girl.
Dark Blue
Does anyone have a torrent or DDL for Dark Blue? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
Dysfunctional Systems cancelled
Well fuck.https://dischan.co/blog/2015/01/the-end-of-dysfunctional-systems/
https://dischan.co/blog/2015/01/dysfunctional-systems-what-went-wrong/
Hope you didn't put in for the Kickstarter, anons, because there isn't enough money to refund everyone. Worse, Dischan won't even release what they did get finished, because it's not good enough for them.