/wrol/ - Without rule of law, or shtf.

Now, lets discuss;

>What can it stop? Not all body armors are equal?

Body armor effectiveness and protective attributes are generally measured using the NIJ (National Institute of Justice) Rating for Body Armor.

These levels are as follows;

Type I: This armor would protect against (40gr) .22LR LRN at a velocity of 080fps and (95gr) 380ACP FMJ RN at a velocity of 1055fps.

Type IIA: New armor protects against (124gr) 9mm Para FMG RN at a velocity of 1225fps, (180 gr) ..40S&W FMJ at a velocity of 1155fps and (230 gr) .45ACP FLJ at a velocity of 900fps. Conditioned armor protects against (124 gr) 9mm FMJ RN at a velocity 1165fps (180 gr) .40 S&W FMJ at a velocity 1065fps, and (230 gr) .45 ACP FMJ at a velocity of 850fps. It will also stop threats listed in Type I.

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Type II: New armor protects against (124 gr) 9mm FMJ RN at a velocity of 1305fps and (158 gr) .357Mag JSP at a velocity of 1430fps. Conditioned armor protects against (124 gr) 9mm FMJ RN at a velocity of 1245fps (158 gr) and .357Mag JSP at a velocity of 1340fps. It also provides protection against the threats mentioned in Types I and IIA.

Type IIIA: New armor protects against (125 gr) .357 SIG FMJ FN at a velocity of 1470fps and (240 gr) .44Mag SJHP at a velocity of 1430fps. Conditioned armor protects (125 gr) .357 SIG FMJ FN at a velocity of 1410fps and (240 gr) .44Mag SJHP at a velocity of 1340fps. It also provides protection against most handgun threats, as well as the threats mentioned in Types I, IIA, and II.

Type III: Conditioned armor protects against (148 gr) M80 Ball (7.62x51mm/.308) a velocity of 2780fps. It also provides protection against the threats mentioned in [Types I, IIA, II, and IIIA].

Type: IV: Conditioned armor protects against 10.8 g (166 gr) .30-06 M2 AP at a velocity of 2880fps. It also provides at least single hit protection against the threats mentioned in Types I, IIA, II, IIIA, and III.

However, that may not always be the case. The US Military measures it's armor using, MIL-STD-662F V50 Ballistic Test and the UK rates it's armor by HOSDB (Home office Scientific Development Branch) rating.

For the purpose of this discussion and to keep it simple, we'll be utilizing the NIJ Rating for Body Armor.

Generally, two types of armor exists, Soft and Hard. Soft Armor generally is between Type-1 and Type-IIIA protection levels, while Hard Armor are Type-III and Type-IV. Often conically known as “Pistol Rated (Soft) and Rifle Rated (Hard)..

Soft Armor can be made from a multitude of ballistic fabrics (aramids/para-arimids), such as Kevlar, K2, Twaron, ect… that is typically flexible and body conforming. Soft armor with stop the threats it is rated against, but extensive damage can result from Blunt Force Trauma.

This is where “Hard Armor” makes it's intro;

Blunt Force Trauma is the kinetic energy of a projectile transferred onto the surface of the soft armor, with in turn is transferred to the body of the wearer. Blunt Force Trauma can severely damage internal organs, damage veins/capillaries, ect…

Utilizing Trauma Inserts can prevent Blunt Force Trauma. Trauma inserts (aka Trauma Plates) can be made of soft materials (they are not nornally ballstic rated) or hard/rigid materials. Such materials can range from plastics, to ceramics, to rigid fabrics, and to metals.

SAPI/ISAPI (Small Arms Protective Insert/Interm Small Arms Protective Insert) are trauma inserts known as “Special Threat Plates”. More commonly known, simply as “plates”, they're often made of ceramics, metals, rigid fabrics, and plastics…or combination there of.

Some examples are AR500/AR680, Boron Carbide, UHMWPE, Thermoplastics.

Hard and Soft Armor can be worn separately to combat their respective threats they're rated against or worn together, in combination (often hard armor, over soft armor) to provide a form of layered protection. (Plates over vital areas, with soft armor under providing lesser protection over various areas)

So, now that we've established the different types of armor, their threat ratings, and what those armors are typically used for, lets cover….

>What should “I” get?

The first question you need to be asking…what threats do I anticipate to encounter? Will you be wearing armor everyday, as a protective measure against everyday threats or will you be holding it in a reserve function, for SHTF situations?

This is where you come into the world of compromise. If you're going to wear something for protection during your everyday routine, you'll probably want something concealable, which will protect against certain threats. While the possibility of being shot at with a M1 Grand or M4 is always present, it's statically unlikely.

What is far more likely, is being shot with a Bersa Thunder or some form of Saturday Night Special 9mm pocket gun. (This is not a dig at Bersa, they make a fine pocket carry pistols) This is where you want to weigh the pros and cons of Type-II, Type-IIA, and Type-III (or Type-IIIA and Type-IV if the route you want to go). Some of those would be Protective Level, Concealability, Comfort, ect… this is SOLELY a determination for the individual that will be wearing the armor.

This is where you make that determination of what threats you think you'll be facing. Is it Jamal with a 9mm, Franco with a .357Mag, or John with a .45ACP? (Or Roycefus with a .308) This is SOLELY up to you to determine.

Now, if you're going to obtain armor for SHTF, this is where the threat pool increases…dramatically. The chances of being perforated by rifle caliber projectiles is an extremely likely possibility, as is being engaged with small pistol calibers.

This is where Type-IIIA and Type-IV would be a great investment, but again…this is an INDVIDUAL determination. One Strelok may want to make themselves into a walking tank, while another may feel comfortable slinking around in a Type-IIA vest or inserts.

Once you've determined what level you'll be sporting, now comes, “what company should I order from or what material do I want my armor to be made of.

This is yet again, a determination to be made by the individual. Personally, I like AR500…but that's because I'm a poorfag. If I had money to get UHMWPE plates…I would, but I don't.

This is where you need to do some research…ah, shit he said research, that means I actually have to do some mental work. Yes it does, just like determining all the other aspects such as threat levels, you want to get an idea of what you want based on your needs. Is weigh a concern, multi-hit capabilities, fragility, ect… as well as who you want to patronize.

For me, weight isn't a concern, so long as it doesn't exceed 15lb combined. Multi-hit is a concern, but I'm not going to be standing in plain sight for an hour as someone repetitively shoots at me, fragility is a big concern…if I buy Boron Carbide plates, there is a chance I could accidentally drop one (or both) and possibility break or fracture it. (The only way to check is via x-ray)

For me, that brings it down to utilizing soft armor, AR500, UHMWPE, or Thermoplastics.

Soft armor doesn't meet my personal threat determinations, UHMWPE and Thermoplastics are WAY outside my price range…which leaves me with AR500. Again, if I had the money to spend on UHMWPE or Thermoplastics, I'd be buying them.

As far as who I would order from, that is again based on what I can afford. So whomever has the least expensive AR500 is who I'd order from. It's up to you who you order from.

>HEY?! I've got some old armor vest my granddad gave me!

Older armor can be had for almost pennies these days. PASGT, M1955, M69, ect… each will be made of varying materials, using varying production styles, ect…

PASGT is made using Kevlar, it is just layers of soft Kevlar. It is a “Fragmentation Vest” by military standards, but is believe to be rated as Type-IIA.

The commonly available West German “Splitterschutsweste” vests are made with similar ballistic materials, with a similar rating.

The M69 is made using Ballistic Nylon.

The M1951, M1952A, T-52-2, and M1955 are made of Ballistic Nylon and Ballistic Fiberglass Plates known as “Doron”.

You'll also find various older armor system using Boron Carbide, Nickel Boron, Plastics, ect…

There is no real rating systems for vests of this age and it is commonly believe that over time, fibers and materials can deteriorate. This is, yet again, a determination for the individual.

My intent with this giant wall of text was to kick start a discussion on the wearing and use of armor. Please don't shit it up with arguing about what is best. If you're going to claim or disclaim the merit of certain armor, use scientific evidence, use a rational and level headed approach, and be polite.

I hope this bring some light to the subject for Strelok that may have an interest in obtaining body armor. If you have any questions, concerns, comment post em' up.

>>724

I personally got front, back, and side plates of level III AR500 plates. Theyre heavy. Heavy to the point i consider not wearing the, if SHTF and i gotta go places outside my neighborhood. Its like 40lbs when you add the four plates, M9 with three mags, and the 8-10 loaded AR mags. It isnt too big an issue to me, but running in the thing isnt exactly easy.

If i need to post up around home, and shits real bad, ill use all the armor. If shit is so bad that i have to run on foot, you bet your ass ill be dropping all the steel plates i can so i can haul ass. If shit gets THAT bad that the National Guard, Army, Navy, and police cant handle the issue and keep me safe, then im probably better off dead.

>does anyone have stats on where our boys overseas tend to get shot the most?

If its the chest, the back, arms, legs, dick?

Info like this can be used for "wow this shit is heavy, which plate should i remove?" If the soldiers get shot more in the back, then id leave my back plate in. If its the front or sides, id leave those in. Arms, id buy deltoid armor. Groin, id buy some cyanide, because i dont want to live if my dick gets blown off.

>>726

If shit goes down, i really hope to god i dont need to worry about shrapnel. If anything happens, id expect massive civil unrest or some civil war of sorts, depending on the scenario. Civilians dont have airburst explosives, artillery, mortars, or frag grenades (though there are some exceptions amongst us). Im worried about getting shot. Im curious as to which plates (front, back, sides, dick) are more important to be wearing. Ive chosen lvl-III, but may switch to a lvl-IV for the front (or back depending on stats) later on. My issue is shelf life. I want armor i can drop today, throw around next year, and store it in my basement for the next 15 years, and have it still work fine.

>>727

It wouldn't be hard for civilians to obtain heavier munitions. Picked off the bodies of military and law enforcement, raided from convoys or bases. Not to mention, the military itself utilizing heavier weapons.

Then you have the likely scenario of foreign nations like Russia or China funnelling in arms or even invading.

Then you have simple homemade explosives.

All depends on how you maintain and care for your armor. Armor from the Vietnam era that is made of Ceramics is hanging around. AR500 will be around forever.

As far as what is most important. I'd look into Law Enforcement Officers Casualties and Combat Casualties, cross reference them and determine with those stats what is the best layout.

>>728

Cant find anything anywhere. Ive read through combat medic stories and still cant find shit. I have seen a bit about how 5.56x45 is good but M855 and M193 FMJBT projectiles are what suck though. Gonna buy me 500 rounds of soft point 5.56 ammo soon now.

>>729

>>729

M855 was designed for the SAW, to help increased penetration at distance.

M193 is more high velocity, but that in itself can be detrimental within 300m. Keyholing can do some serious damage, but you have to be outside the MEF where the projectile will start to tumble.

Personally, I think a mix of various types of ammo is just a sound plan. M193, M855, M995, Soft-Point, ect… just more tools in the tool box you can call upon as you need them. 7.62 tends to have better effect in urban and rural environments. It's ability to punch through barriers (stucco, siding, brick, ect…) better and has a MEF that outreaches 5.56.

I'm sure someone will take issue with my assessments, but that's the name of the game. Everyone has their opinions on everything.

>The distribution of combat wounds was as follows: head/neck 28.1%, thorax 9.9%, abdomen,10.1%, and extremities 51.9%. Explosive injury mechanisms accounted for 74.4% of all combat casualties, which was significantly higher than those caused by gunshot wounds (19.9%)

The above is from the National Institute of Biotechnology Information, based on Force Wide numbers from the Army.

>The distribution of these wounds was as follows: head/neck 36.2%, thorax 7.5%, abdomen 6.9%, and extremities 49.4%. Improvised explosive devices accounted for 77.7% of all combat wounds.

The above data is also from the NIBI, but is based on combat injuries within a Brigade Combat Team.

Overall, arms and legs lead, followed by the head, and then chest, and then torso.

Law Enforcement deaths, based a 30 year review of data obtained by the FBI. The majority of Officer shootings involve handguns, followed by shotguns, then rifles. The majority of injuries resulted from shootings was a “major” injury (penetration into a body cavity). It doesn't specify what parts of the body were injured.

So based on the data, arms/legs are most likely to be hit, followed by your head, then your torso, then chest.

So it looks like the first thing to invest in is a skull bucket, statistically at least

>>770

Not too sure if id like that. Youd need to get a damn good helmet if you want protection. Since youre likely to be shot from the front, youd need a face shield, and this means restricted vision. Itll most likely be a rifle, which will mean level III or IV. If it is ceramic, you will need eye protection under the mask. It would need to be tight-fitting, otherwise itll get very annoying, for you. You also need to worry about concussive force. You dont want your nose smashed into your face, all your teeth knocked out, or to black out. A dead soldier is easier to care for than a screaming, crying, bleeding, dying one. Id rather die than have two of my only men have to tend to my facial wounds from my mask. You also no need to worry about properly looking down your sights.

I think a face or head shot is basically a certain death. I know people survive them all the time, but the risks of a mask outweigh the benefits, especially for a combat scenario. This is why we use helmets, not masks. If a soldier wore a mask, everyone would question why he wears the mask.

Putting armor on your shoulders and forearms isnt too difficult. Shoulders and upper arms are probably easiest, just use a few 1"x7" or 2"x8" steel plates on the upper arm.

The issue now is the forearm, which, in my mind, is too small and difficult an area to cover. Your arm doesnt rotate with your wrist, so it will feel and act funny.

Next comes the legs. I assume the waist, thighs, and knees are more likely to be hit than the shins. Some form of tactical skirt made of either jointed 2"x6" steel or ceramic plates, or a soft-woven level II or III-A one would be most functional. Now you havethe issue of way too much weight, and limited leg movement, if it isnt built perfectly for you.

Then come the shins. Use a v-shaped softback steel plate for each shin. Now you dont have to worry about banging it either.

Finally come hands and feet. You arent putting armor on your hands. The steel would either rip your finger off with the bullet, or the ceramic will implant itself into your hands with the bullet. Foot armor is retarded, unless you fear punji sticks. In this case, a steel plate on the bottom of your boot is the only way to go. Too much weight on your feet is dumb.

Armor how it is today is pretty much perfected, given our current technology. It is optimized for both budget and soldier. Rather than spend 3,500$ on a custom made facial protector which restricts your abilities, spend it on better ammo to pierce the enemy's armor, or better fortification of your surroundings. Maybe shin guards arent a bad idea, but realize that steel weighs quite a bit, and putting it on your lower legs is not a bright idea if you plan on going anywhere. Upper arm plating doesnt sound too bad, and the only negative i can think of is proper fitting, size restraints and variations from person to person, and the ability to flex inside it. It would need to be placed in pockets of a flexible elastic fabric, then attached to your coat/BDU so it doesnt rotate or fall off.

>>772

>being clad nearly head to toe in IIIA armor

.223 would rip right through the entire suit easily.

>>771

This is why body armor is a "force multiplier", not an "end-all, be-all". It's a tool used to help increase the chance survival, not ensure survival.

Any issued (read as in Mil-Std) Type-II Jungle Boot will have a aluminum plate made into the sole to negate Punji sticks.

Some companies have also produced footware to reduced damage to feet/ankles in the event of small anti-personnel devices, such as Blast Mines and smaller IEDs.

>>772

Useless. Eventually you'd have to reload and the stress and strain of weight would eventually be too much for your body. It'd be nothing for them to tackle you to the ground, thus demobilizing you, and resulting in you being beat to death.

The AK-47 fires 7.62x39mm and AK-74 fires 5.54x39mm. Both will slice through L-IIIA like butter.

Certain 9x19mm rounds will pass through L-IIIA as well, as will so other pistol calibers.

It worked so well for the North Hollywood Shooters because they had surprise and shock value on their side. Additionally, the LAPD was also restrained by departmental policies and media coverage. Had those policies and media coverage been ignored, the shootout would have lasted 5 minutes, until an officer shwacked them in the head with a 1oz. 12ga. slug. Instead, because of public concern and SOP restraint, SWAT had to raid local gun shops for rifles, because their MP-5A5s couldn't cut it, just like patrol officer 92FS weren't.

>>771

I have precisely no knowledge of practical face protection, but taiwan has issued its military with facemasks that will stop up to a .44. Handgun. Itll fucking hurt, and itll most likrly break something, but it wont kill you. It wont, however, stop rifles above a certain calibre.but against mist handguns and shot shells, itll prvide a good level of protection.

Saying all that, its impractical. One would only wear it if one was in an engagement.

on a slightly related note, I seem to have found some rifle-capable headwear that might interest some of you.

http://www.xshellhelmets.com/mk-1-ak.html

the Xshell helmet, apperently good enough to stop an AK round point-blank with "minimal" back face deformation. still looks like it'd hurt, though.

http://www.mtekweaponsystems.com/supply/index.php?route=product/product&path=30&product_id=40

the Mtek G4. like the other, it can stop an AK round at close range, however, the back-face deformation looks pretty nose-breaking to me. also after taking one hit from a rifle it pops off, as we can see in the similar G3A version in the video I posted. the difference between that and the G4 is that the G4 seems slimmer and easier to use with a rifle, while the G3A was intended for use with mounted guns.

also, I have found other rifle-worthy armors aside from plates. Bulletproofme.com offers both bicep and forearm protection with rifle plates here http://bulletproofme.com/Body_Armor_Accessories-SIDE-Rifle-Protection.shtml#Arm

and AR500armor offers an "auxillary body armor system" that extends a small rifle plate to cover the belly, here http://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-abdominal-ballistic-system.html#.VfELyRFViko

wear all this with a plate carrier accepting 11x14 rifle plates and 6x8 side plates, and you can maximize personal rifle protection and maybe even create a "juggernaut suit" like I posted in >>772 . however, either the armor is going to be overly expensive or overly heavy and mobility will be a concern, and yes, I couldn't find any rifle-plate offerings that cover the lower body, so you are not completely protected. also, yes, wearing all this may slow you down to the point where you are overwhelmed anyways, as >>780 says, but that's thinking as if you were some kind of idiotic lone-protector without any backup. Rather, I think of this as a sort of suit that a frontman would wear, a force multiplier that would push back effectively against a force that outnumbers, but does not outgun you. Even if I cannot find any rifle-level offerings for the body below the belly, you could still be wearing ballistic leggings and yes, they are a thing, http://www.bluedefense.com/body-armor/bullet-proof-pants-3a.html among other options, making you basically impervious to IIIA threats all over your body- which encompasses everything from staurday night specials to any variety of magnum or buckshot rounds, while your upper body is capable of defending against larger threats.

the way I see it, such a suit wouldn't be as useless as simply extremely niche- a weapon to be deployed if you, AND a medium/small team, are up against a foe that harshly outnumbers you, however, they are armed sparingly; and if you and said team were given a little time to prepare for the onslaught.

so yeah, I suppose practically it would be useless against anything but a rioting pack of niggers. Still, against said scenario, I am adamant that you'd be a force to be reckoned with if armed with such a getup along with some sort of large semi-automatic weapon like an RPK clone or a 20" AR with a drum, or better yet, some semi-auto mag-fed shotgun.

>>836

The G4 meets V50 and NIJ Level-IIIA ratings. The V50 rating pertains to fragmentation protection, where NIJ is for ballistic protection (this data is from Mtek's website).

Now the video shows the shield stopping what I'm going to assume is a 123gr. 7.62x39mm (that's the caliber the AK-47 fires). While wearing a G3 or G4 MAY save your life, it's going to be an excruciatingly painful situation, the deformation is serious, enough to smash your face in, but the factor of kinetic energy isn't being considered. When you're hit with a projectile within your equipment's rating, the kinetic energy is transferred over to the armor and your body, now being hit in the abdomen or even the groin provides a decent amount of space for the energy to be disipated over and the armor absorbs a large amount itself…but the head, which is supported by the neck would most likely sustain serious damaged from the energy transfer, not to mention the blunt trauma.

I think the video is more of a Moto Promo, but in the end it's up to us individually what we're going to wear. If I was driving or a passenger/gunner, I'd want one.

>and AR500armor offers an "auxillary body armor system" that extends a small rifle plate to cover the belly, here http://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-abdominal-ballistic-system.html#.VfELyRFViko

This has the potential of being a worthwhile investment.

>wear all this with a plate carrier accepting 11x14 rifle plates and 6x8 side plates…

Assuming your team has the funds to purchase this loadout prior the SHTF, you need early warning capabilities, lets also not forget the ammunition, and weapons, this adds considerable expense and individuals to train.

>Rather, I think of this as a sort of suit that a frontman would wear…

This entire scenario could be avoided by simply playing the "gray man", rather than providing a ripe target, don't even present a target to begin with.

If the Shit has truly hit the fan, dindus aren't the only threat, but playing "devil's advocate" for this well say it's just Dindus, you're forgetting the police armories, National Guard armories, personal arsenals, ect… that the Dindus can raid. Any Dindu can plug a person with a rifle, but what a Dindu can't do is employ a tactical mindset and utilize his surroundings to his benefit.

If you really want to keep the Dindus guessing, hit them before they hit you. Strike and fad back into the shadows, wear them down, until they decide handing around isn't worth it.

>the way I see it, such a suit wouldn't be…

It's makes much more sense to have a staged perimeter with various obstacles, traps, and other little greeting devices, than to walk out wearing a suit, which not only puts you into a lower mobility, but can simply be negated by having Dindus throw Molotov Cocktails at you.

If you want to employ an entire armor loudout, you need to have a placement where you can expose yourself to fire, that is out of range of incendiary devices, and where you can escape from, but you can't be flanked.

>so yeah, I suppose practically it would be useless against…

Demoralization is a superb weapon, but what's more demoralizing. An armored man, or a marksman outside of visual range?

All in all, I think the overall thought has merit, but I think it needs to be heavily combined with other tactical considerations to be practical and applicable. That's the great thing about having a board, we can toss around ideas and share concepts.

I've found from need of impromptu armor that you can make at least a decent knife and punch plate out of two used composition books with plastic covers. I interlocked the pages and covers then did a cross out of duct tape. It hold quite well against a razor blade; it generally gets stuck inside. Knives either cut over the plastic and a few pages in and glance off or get deflected by the plastic outside of it. These can be worn by making a vest out of two shirts sown at the bottom and sides near the vest or can be duct taped against yourself if in need of impromptu stab armor like I needed. Maybe you can find another way to wear it so its more comfortable.

BUT BUT BUT BIIIIIIG BUTTTES, the size is small and I doubt it will sustain anything above airgun calibers. It's been shown that text books and such can take handgun calibers. Maybe worth looking into.

>>847

negative sterlock myth busters tested the hand gun and book thing and its not feasible.

what do you guys think about a AR500 shield and soft body armor.

Basically put soft body armor on upper arms shoulder chest sides back thighs (its light so your still mobile but protected from fragmentation).

and the you have a AR500 steel shield or something similar that can take multiple rifle rounds.

This "shield" would give you mobile cover so no matter where you went you could have a barrier between you and enemy fire.

You could also make it inter lockable with other "shields" so you could make a temporary bullet proof wall.

The only thing to worry about would be making it small enough to not insanely heavy but big enough to knell behind and take cover.

>>970

Finally, another poster

>>973

>Like I mentioned above, as you start to increase the size of your plate, AR500 gets very heavy.

thats my biggest issue i had a thought of using layers of aluminum and steel. cause i know armored bank trucks use aluminum because its lighter and it deforms to catch bullets better than steel which either breaks what hits it or itself so if you took two pieces of steel and sandwiched a piece of aluminum between. the aluminum would act as a buffer to slow down any projectile.