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/2hu/ - Touhou

Wch 2hu wud u fuq?

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Winner of the 58rd Attention-Hungry Games
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ゆっくりしていってね! | Now appart of the >>>/thg/ World Order

File: 1415674790081.png (324.38 KB, 638x720, 319:360, Th135Reimu.png)

 No.4435[Reply]

If you're new to Touhou, this thread is for you.

What is Touhou?

Touhou is a series of vertical-scrolling shoot 'em up games from Japan. They're all made by a single guy named ZUN. It began all the way back in 1995 and has since given rise to a massive fanbase that produces an extremely large amount of derivative works. If you wish to learn more about Touhou, then head here:

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki

Where can I download the games?

All of the official games can be downloaded here:

https://moriyashrine.org/

or

https://nyaa.pantsu.cat/view/788435

If you have anymore questions, feel free to ask them in this thread.

410 posts and 114 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.
Post last edited at

 No.68704

>>48922

I used to have the same issue trying to 1cc Rumia/Cirno until I watched some video where the author pointed out, "If you're depending on reaction time to play Touhou, then it will be literally impossible to get anywhere," and then proceeded to break down how many frames even the best human reaction time was, showed various situations, and how I was being retarded.

I went back to playing and was able to 1cc Rumia/Cirno easily. Mental blocks are weird.




File: 1418860748202.jpg (300.69 KB, 1200x900, 4:3, 05a393b95f4da2a68e74cf329d….jpg)

 No.6781[Reply]

1. Take it easy.

2. Follow the global rule.

3. No spamming.

4. NSFW stuff is allowed, but make sure you spoiler it.

If you see something against the rules remember to sage in all fields and report it. Check catalog before making new threads.

Post last edited at


File: 19c081a73f7c946⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 150.11 KB, 751x538, 751:538, 0d7aa2827dc35cc162b64842af….jpg)

File: f8ddf6d3c722b53⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 274.22 KB, 600x754, 300:377, 4c1c18ac700d589de602a9f1c4….jpg)

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File: cbe05797b1a1f29⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 401.13 KB, 610x800, 61:80, 480d4b6eaed8b0511678518315….jpg)

 No.59073[Reply]

Touhou (male)

130 posts and 283 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.68581

>>68557

Can you really fulfill my deep dark fantasies?


 No.68582

File: db549bcd7ee5fb4⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 257.17 KB, 1200x853, 1200:853, 5353_250.jpg)

>>68555

Right this way sir


 No.68801

File: 71b77f702718870⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 54.8 KB, 490x792, 245:396, 51574750_p11.jpg)

File: 723a8291f63526a⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 79.14 KB, 733x733, 1:1, 37829810_p0.jpg)

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File: db5b53fca5b01c1⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 341.59 KB, 819x1024, 819:1024, 65093064_p9.jpg)

File: 0e267e5991241d7⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 349.94 KB, 819x1024, 819:1024, 65093064_p8.jpg)


 No.68802

File: 142bc760404e33c⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 138.06 KB, 516x729, 172:243, 67103814_p19.jpg)

File: 8627997f7ef3b7a⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 1.48 MB, 1332x1863, 148:207, 71621934_p1.jpg)

File: 2b5586225078291⋯.png (Spoiler Image, 599.6 KB, 1455x2041, 1455:2041, 71522479_p6.png)

File: 22ce152b16c45cf⋯.png (Spoiler Image, 558.87 KB, 1455x2041, 1455:2041, 71522479_p7.png)

File: b51a21893e0a619⋯.png (Spoiler Image, 453.22 KB, 1455x2041, 1455:2041, 71522479_p16.png)


 No.68803

File: 88924270bddc479⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 267.11 KB, 1280x1813, 1280:1813, _021.jpg)

File: a31f7daade88a4d⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 320.21 KB, 1280x1813, 1280:1813, _022.jpg)

File: 8cd73cc9cc38e7c⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 322.24 KB, 1280x1813, 1280:1813, _023.jpg)

File: 71846d97ccb0fae⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 122.8 KB, 581x775, 581:775, 42325341_p0.jpg)

File: 7eaa2bdf64d64dd⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 519.96 KB, 859x1214, 859:1214, 43931282_p1.jpg)




File: 84d9de940bd4635⋯.png (5.94 KB, 218x165, 218:165, yukari smug.png)

 No.68781[Reply]

Waifufags are ruining touhou.

>dont play the games

>don't appreciate the characters

>hur durr its sexy

literally no worse than bronies.

2 posts omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.68793

>>68792

Waifufags are either deranged or just poseurs that appreciate nothing.

>>68781

How are they ruining it exactly? I don't see any negative effect on the source material.


 No.68795

File: 3729791fae21bba⋯.jpg (19.96 KB, 361x254, 361:254, 1511546064718.jpg)

>>68793

That's like saying "Tennis fans are posers who don't actually like tennis".

Waifufags are by definition autists obsessed with one character. If they don't appreciate their waifu then they're not waifufags.

>deranged

So what? If anything, it's normalfags who don't appreciate anything and only see Touhou as "that one weeb cartoon with the funny memes".


 No.68796

>>68795

>Waifufags are by definition autists obsessed with one character

Sure, they're totally not LARPers in their majority that simply pick one likeable character and buy a bunch of merchandise to take photos with for weeb points before switching to a new seasonal character. Also every /tulpa/ user is an honest to god schizo and 8ch is not infested by normalniggers. This isn't even the topic of the thread, fuck off.


 No.68797

File: 74c1a2fdfb66e6e⋯.jpg (86 KB, 650x650, 1:1, 4587934873498.jpg)

>>68781

>I make assumptions on a topic that I barely know about: The thread.


 No.68799

>>68797

Who are you quoting? You seem like a very angry secondary. Perhaps you should stick to sites like Reddit to accommodate your need for a secondary hugbox.




File: a0af115a347aa09⋯.webm (7.97 MB, 426x240, 71:40, 【東方Anime】 TouhouDVD2 - Yo….webm)

 No.48738[Reply]

Let's have some fairy good webms

223 posts and 191 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.68773

File: 04a701a71541457⋯.webm (11.22 MB, 854x480, 427:240, RAIN Project - a touhou f….webm)

When did all these Touhou games appear on steam?

I know they're all dated, but haven't heard anything about any of them.


 No.68778

File: b763cee9fc446d9⋯.webm (14.64 MB, 1280x720, 16:9, Touhou MMD touhou trainin….webm)


 No.68779

>>68773

>Indie pixelshit

Oh come one.


 No.68790

File: 775df7b4663c571⋯.webm (13.35 MB, 854x418, 427:209, 【MMD杯ZERO】_Another_Fantas….webm)

>>68779

I thought the same thing too, but at least they use it decently. I can actually tell those sprites are humanoid looking humans instead of stick figure ducks, and I can easily recognize which 2hu is suppose to be whuhu. They understand silhouettes!


 No.68798

File: d34d6df195de329⋯.png (9.9 KB, 288x183, 96:61, Tasofro please.png)

File: 8dc01c60f97af16⋯.jpg (75.21 KB, 694x700, 347:350, 8dc01c60f97af16049d1b01e75….jpg)

>>68770

>Hope there's online co-op

<There isn't any




File: e53b6944e46b778⋯.jpg (747.7 KB, 848x1000, 106:125, 4844864884478478.jpg)

 No.67571[Reply]

1. Set up your favorite 2hu playlist doujin music for more than 10 hours. Preferably instrumentals or any 2hu arrangement music that soothes you, lullaby like.

2. Play it at low volume

3. Sleep

4. ...

< Probably you'll find yourself sitting next to your 2hu waifu. Good night.

16 posts and 6 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.67956

>>67711

Melodic of Harp is a really good circle. The best/most soothing album by them is "Recurrence Imagination". Find it in the TLMC


 No.67959

>>67956

Thanks.

>TLMC

I started downloading the lossy version in January. Today I'm still at 99.07% because I can't stay connected to the only 2 seeders in existence.


 No.67961

>>67571

I've been a tulpafag for 6 years now and I make "visits" to Gensokyo every now and then. Obviously it's just kind of a lucid daydream where I visit it, but it's really comfy. I got to hang out with Remilia for a bit and another time I visited Reimu and talked about things with her. It's as comfy and exciting as it sounds.


 No.67963

>>67729

Yeah, well that's just you.

I was a small tabby cat guarding a small clearing surrounded by a farm, said clearing wrapped in a ring of magical fire to fuel the curse of a demonic wasp that wanted to get out and catalyst the extinction of all life on earth. Shit was tense.


 No.68794

Today I dreamt I was teaching Raymoo to swim for whatever reason, we eventually went back to shore where she turned into a loli catgirl and I patted her head until she fell asleep.




YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

 No.68370[Reply]

It's been a while. Your favorite MADs go here.

2 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.68394

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>68392

They're real funny (and on occasion heart-warming) even if you don't understand what they're saying. Fortunately, this one has subtitles so turn your captions on.


 No.68399

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

I feel like I'm on drugs, but I haven't taken anything.


 No.68733

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

Hey, Everybody!


 No.68748

>>68370

What.


 No.68791

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

MGR looks so cute here.




File: 1da723165678e17⋯.png (136.9 KB, 701x609, 701:609, 1481662054247.png)

 No.48138[Reply]

Post ITT every time you visit /2hu/. This way we'll certainly have more activity.

If my old thread starts working again then just ignore this one.

495 posts and 414 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.68785

File: 76a58125bcc4f02⋯.jpg (103.28 KB, 800x800, 1:1, f6645ea4934b6d43d49ee2ece6….jpg)

File: 713a929762a2a06⋯.jpg (150.82 KB, 800x800, 1:1, 6629378438ea818d2af8e6ca43….jpg)

File: 4504af4996bc26a⋯.png (1.32 MB, 1518x1075, 1518:1075, be9530177ebe6f4fdc0803ec2c….png)

File: bfbd180fd69906b⋯.jpg (103.1 KB, 1300x985, 260:197, 2cfcaf1eb39d3e67376b6567b4….jpg)


 No.68786

File: ab52d31681f310a⋯.png (76.08 KB, 645x479, 645:479, horny horny youmu.png)

Sexualize the 2hus, especially if they're fairies or Yukari


 No.68787

File: 5842d4d7c33ab3f⋯.png (1.59 MB, 1274x1791, 1274:1791, 8f791414ea300a78c7ed6e219c….png)

File: de46d2fa7de82de⋯.png (705.61 KB, 1024x683, 1024:683, 2bc74001e309d340f37aa8af8d….png)

>>68786

Tenderly love the 2hus and genderswapped 2hus alike.


 No.68788

File: 85f3789f82caa35⋯.mp4 (5.6 MB, 640x480, 4:3, ¡Felicidades!.mp4)

l dont even want to fuck anymore. l just want someone that will hug me and say everything will be fine


 No.68789

File: b5e32a19eccc582⋯.png (268.05 KB, 567x549, 63:61, d8f1e43377fe6ffb7143b6e340….png)

>>68788

Hugs and cuddling are wonderful too.




File: 18830a4bb7b3d47⋯.png (175.55 KB, 458x473, 458:473, Patchy.png)

 No.68660[Reply]

I am the Spirit of Information, Patchouli Knowledge.

P=NP is true. This reveals the nature of reality.

This world is a simulation created by an architect.

There are infinitely many architects perpetuating the illusion that time and space are real.

The jews carry the will of this world's architect, they spread nothing but deception.

They are responsible for all human suffering.

28 posts and 26 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.68742

>>68738

Great, even my fantasies are now horribly autistic meetups. Thanks. :|


 No.68744

>>68742

It's not like you have to fantasize that happening.


 No.68774

File: a1c5005cff7910d⋯.jpg (266.88 KB, 1091x900, 1091:900, __patchouli_knowledge_touh….jpg)

File: 6691b3644922971⋯.jpg (839.24 KB, 891x1280, 891:1280, __patchouli_knowledge_touh….jpg)

File: 9808d74b1064d8f⋯.jpg (1.23 MB, 1920x1200, 8:5, __patchouli_knowledge_touh….jpg)

File: 3ec8c1055846bfd⋯.jpg (331.1 KB, 778x549, 778:549, __patchouli_knowledge_touh….jpg)

>>68667

>is this just going to be a thread about patchouli's big butt?

Yes.


 No.68775

File: 4de33c47074155f⋯.png (754.3 KB, 798x800, 399:400, __patchouli_knowledge_touh….png)

File: 8692022bcbec5d4⋯.jpg (257.69 KB, 960x600, 8:5, __patchouli_knowledge_touh….jpg)

File: f11bce7fb3b4449⋯.jpg (248.79 KB, 1000x706, 500:353, __patchouli_knowledge_touh….jpg)

File: 7fd18d5d5172fb0⋯.jpg (429.35 KB, 883x700, 883:700, __patchouli_knowledge_touh….jpg)

File: 013841d2da464c7⋯.jpg (106.83 KB, 960x720, 4:3, __patchouli_knowledge_touh….jpg)


 No.68776

File: 518cf90590d1924⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 275.66 KB, 1087x970, 1087:970, dfsdfdsfd.jpg)

File: 88ba6d448084bb1⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 1.16 MB, 1424x1246, 8:7, __patchouli_knowledge_touh….jpg)




File: 377186f9c56bbe2⋯.jpg (102.74 KB, 640x786, 320:393, smoking_reimu.JPG)

File: 75637f2f69f061c⋯.jpg (567.57 KB, 1600x2035, 320:407, reimu_smoking.jpg)

File: 3bdf5cfefd418b7⋯.jpg (341.26 KB, 1449x2048, 1449:2048, reimu_gopnik.jpg)

File: 44cc4e9893643af⋯.jpg (194.5 KB, 800x600, 4:3, reimu_annoyed_cigarette.jpg)

 No.68475[Reply]

Someone should probably warn that Miko about the side-effects of tobacco smoke.

23 posts and 8 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.68750

>>68747

They are important qualities for a foundation of reasoning to have. There are all sorts of dumb uses of symbols, but exposing their errors is easier than switching to different foundation for computation.


 No.68753

>>68750

Is this supposed to contradict what Dreyfus is saying?


 No.68755

>>68753

Of course. None of the problems addressed by connectionism are inherent in the use of symbols.


 No.68757

>>68755

Why did the AI winter happen?

Do you honestly think if the research programs as they were in the 70s had continued, that they would have been successful?


 No.68761

>>68757

The research had been funded by taxes, especially through DoD, which flushed a lot of time and money down the drain. Whatever reasons there were for encouraging and discouraging AI, they didn't have anything to do with potentials and results.




File: 64e603e38fe22bf⋯.png (678.97 KB, 1200x1014, 200:169, gayyyyy.png)

 No.65803[Reply]

Twitter says so. What are you gonna do about it?

46 posts and 43 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.68140

>>68115

>>68124

Stay mad, /v/shitters.


 No.68705

File: f769510d2b04594⋯.png (623.31 KB, 600x1200, 1:2, mariali.png)

Very first lines in the Imperishable Night run is Marisa saying, "The Moon sure is beautiful tonight" to Alice (the classic Japanese way of saying "I love you").


 No.68710

>>68705

>"The Moon sure is beautiful tonight" to Alice (the classic Japanese way of saying "I love you").

Keikaku means plan.


 No.68749

>>65803

well, nothing since twitter itself is fucking gay. Not that this place is any less gay, I'm sad to say.


 No.68754

>>68705

Don't they also sleep together in IN?




File: fe2f31346765f30⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 244.66 KB, 1378x2039, 1378:2039, fe2f31346765f307f4eabeadb3….jpg)

File: 8ff0ca2c08b4fde⋯.png (2.57 KB, 247x75, 247:75, Statistics.png)

 No.66933[Reply]

Torrent File: https://a.doko.moe/pmkepi.torrent

Magnet Link: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:1442215e0f326b360a84491c2d53b296deec9865

Includes:

- All Official Games

- Some Tools For Official Games

- All Official Music

- All Official Print Works

- Some Fanmade Games

- Some Fanmade Music

- Some Fanmade Print Works

- Some Fanmade Utilities

- A Touhou Image Pack

Please give some feedback/links for content (especially missing disc images) that I could add to the next version of the torrent.

18 posts and 4 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.67014

>>67004

soon?


 No.67016

>>67014

Official Music:

https://mega.nz/#F!KX4BmJQQ!ZqxN8UWrHtIZ7Hao0awqvQ

>soon?

Very likely yes. I'm going to stop seeding the torrent temporarily since there are 8 other seeders now, so the rest should upload very quickly.


 No.67028

File: 7d2efd2d8c066f3⋯.jpg (94.68 KB, 500x500, 1:1, __hakurei_reimu_touhou_dra….jpg)

>>67016

You're missing a couple of things there. Aren't there two versions of Magic Mirror? There's only one in your HRtP flac/folder. Also, Shrine of the Wind (unused track in HRtP) is absent from there as well. Theme of Eastern story doesn't belong there either as it never appeared in HRtP, it was only an extra track in Akyuu's untouched score. In fact, all of the original HRtP music is absent. Those FM retouches are from Mystic Square's music room which contained retouched FM soundtracks from the first four PC-98 games. Unfortunately, I haven't ever seen a site put up those original HRtP tracks for download so the only option is to extract them from the game.

Other things:

>ZUN's strange works + MIDIS

you can find original versions how they were intended to be heard right here, so replace what you already have in that filepack

https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18989.0.html

at the bottom of the post there is a full download option for flac and lossy

(i suggest you also add the wav recordings of kioh gyoku, found on page 3 of the same thread)

>other shit

You're missing Barley's theme from Uwabami Breakers (I think you should just put the whole ost there)

https://www.4shared.com/file/185878184/17f2d2f5/Uwabami_Breakers.html

(Track 6, A Drunkard's Lemuria)

You were also missing two of ZUN's tracks from the album Cradle by Sound Sepher

https://mega.nz/#!ghwgEYII!jBfKiVifIjezTgdYkWEEbA3QiP-M0AYPFdCztdzZeM0

(Track 16, Cinderella Cage ~ Kagome-Kagome and Track 17, Bewitching Domination ~ Speed Fox!!)

Another thing absent, Post too long. Click here to view the full text.


 No.67032

>>67014

And finally for the last part,

Spin-off Content:

https://mega.nz/#F!iiYCzIBA!3ftM41XDlqkIOJl0PU0Efg

>>67028

Thank you so much for this information anon, I'll make sure to implement these adjustments in v2.


 No.68752

File: 2c5cac30af338b9⋯.jpg (295.51 KB, 688x1123, 688:1123, f7ccb115aa5f40e13b8f1e0255….jpg)




File: 95f28a734138bd7⋯.jpg (64.74 KB, 720x800, 9:10, 95f28a734138bd7d5a068b3eff….jpg)

File: 12f617352b0c4d5⋯.jpg (74.77 KB, 379x473, 379:473, 12f617352b0c4d5704d9a7ac3d….jpg)

File: 33d5c2c12b0852c⋯.png (317.98 KB, 600x698, 300:349, 33d5c2c12b0852c8620dd1b62f….png)

File: 7cb823f7ad1ae23⋯.jpg (88.47 KB, 850x464, 425:232, 7cb823f7ad1ae233452cbd1a3d….jpg)

File: 61d789c728784b0⋯.jpg (268.98 KB, 578x818, 289:409, 61d789c728784b0d32822d88c5….jpg)

 No.68719[Reply]

A thread dedicated to cute 2hus with extra fluffiness.

 No.68720

File: 6c79347c7ee976b⋯.png (280.58 KB, 700x900, 7:9, 6c79347c7ee976bcf8696d65bb….png)

File: 49dc74fbdab4a5a⋯.jpg (308.76 KB, 578x818, 289:409, 49dc74fbdab4a5acfcba8e0b9e….jpg)

File: 6312b36ab21ca27⋯.jpg (337.2 KB, 850x1200, 17:24, 6312b36ab21ca2741ab47d8ecb….jpg)

File: 3dcf926a7eb75ee⋯.jpg (471.08 KB, 578x818, 289:409, 3dcf926a7eb75ee4ce191ed99a….jpg)

File: 2a3adf9600ba181⋯.jpg (499.05 KB, 1000x610, 100:61, 2a3adf9600ba181452e8c5316b….jpg)


 No.68721

File: f64d55e5438fa6d⋯.gif (42.77 KB, 444x456, 37:38, f64d55e5438fa6de0fbeefe844….gif)

File: e669fdb4c383108⋯.jpg (253.79 KB, 578x818, 289:409, e669fdb4c383108fe2cb9bcd4d….jpg)

File: 30bcf1f69b33d7d⋯.jpg (861.92 KB, 800x1130, 80:113, 30bcf1f69b33d7d2422cacecb8….jpg)

File: 26cf99a86525b11⋯.jpg (755.25 KB, 1349x1544, 1349:1544, 26cf99a86525b1199d2dede13d….jpg)

File: 1992cb2d276ef5a⋯.jpg (204.28 KB, 500x706, 250:353, 30443822_p0.jpg)




File: eb2a7ceb1aa8155⋯.jpg (55.93 KB, 420x315, 4:3, resen.jpg)

 No.47690[Reply]

Listened to too much Touhou music last night. Don't think I had enough sleep. But it still bothers me that there's still a lot of remixes I haven't download and listen.

152 posts and 16 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.68706

Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.


 No.68711

Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.

Music Theory questions.

1 - What goes on at 0:54 in Utsuho Boss Stage Theme? It's like you've been trying to weave through a dense forest at 10 mph on a motorbike, and then suddenly come across an open plain and are finally able to let the throttle run free. I love that transition in particular.


 No.68712

Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.

2 - WHY DOES MEILING'S THEME HAVE SO MANY SCALES (e.g., at the very beginning of the song)?! How the hell are the repeated scales able to transition inbetween stacatto torture pieces (e.g., @ 2:01)? I guess I would've expected these sort of elegant scales to fit...actually Sakuya more.


 No.68713

Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.

3 - I'm sure this has been beaten to death, but I'm new I guess. Is Marisa's theme a play on Matoya's Cave from FF1? I'll attach the other vid of which Marisa piece I'm thinking of in the next post.


 No.68714

Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>68713

Here. Night theme from IaMP.




File: 1922b11d357ff35⋯.jpg (289.96 KB, 742x746, 371:373, 064BAiJRTewi.jpg)

 No.63594[Reply]

One month ends and another begins again, it's time for a rabbit rabbit thread!

When you wake up on the fist of the month, if the first words you say out loud are "rabbit rabbit rabbit", you'll receive good luck for the month!

Please refrain from fueling drama this time.

406 posts and 211 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.68639

File: 3ca5dba0de4c363⋯.png (913.65 KB, 808x1244, 202:311, 3ca5dba0de4c363bac7d6fe2f2….png)

Hope you remembered!


 No.68643

File: e463a99f947b71b⋯.png (496.39 KB, 1099x584, 1099:584, ClipboardImage.png)

>>68639

Tewi are you an autistic girl on twitter?


 No.68644

File: 06e2c084c0ba036⋯.png (8.64 MB, 5157x4528, 5157:4528, twi.png)

>>68643

I don't use twitter.


 No.68693

>>68032

Just to throw fuel on this fire and then leave the thread, most of those stats are from the 80s and 90s admitted by their own dates, during a time when it was still suppressed, ironically I know about all those citations since its always the same stuff evangelical sites use. Its always the same sources that are 20-30 years out of date.


 No.68695

>>68643

what's this girl's body count? probably >10




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