/philosophy/ - Philosophy

>>2144

What, exactly, is there to comprehend about sex to be morally justified in engaging with it?

There are plenty of fucking horny 12 and 13 years olds who once they know what it is, fucking want to try it.

The whole idea about "emotional maturity" is absolute nonsense. Fucking has nothing to do with maturity, it has to do with the desire to fuck, which comes FAAAAR before psychological (the fuck is emotional maturity?) and intellectual maturity.

Now, kids are fucking stupid so they should know about protection to avoid pregnancy/stds, and they should also be made aware how to actually go about sex and what's socially acceptable in the act so that no scenario of letting fucked up things happen because "that's what they told me sex was about".

Beyond that? Let they who want to fuck, fuck. When I find out a 30 year old fucked my 13 year old daughter though, nothing is going to stop me from wrecking his shit regardless of her wanting it or not.

>>2146

>When I find out a 30 year old fucked my 13 year old daughter though, nothing is going to stop me from wrecking his shit regardless of her wanting it or not.

>being a willful hypocrite.

She's not even close to the bustiest U15 idol, get a clue you fucking normie

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>2169

Where is the hypocrisy? Me beating a pedo up has nothing to do with morality, I just want to satisfy my urges to take vengeance for my feelings of outrage at some sick fuck fucking my daughter.

Just because it's morally null does not mean I have to like it or accept it. I'm no moralist.

Nothing can be objectively wrong or right, OP.

>morals

toplel

>>2479

>reverse Oedipus complex

Nice.

>>2479

Oh fuck, somebody dig up Diogenes' bones! We've found an honest man!

>>2496

Stirner is the dankest /philosophy/ meme

If a 13-year-old discovers masturbation, did they rape themself? Why not? According to how I understand current sentiment, a minor cannot consent to sexual activity, so they cannot choose to masturbate, so they are molesting themself. Maybe the anti-masturbation crowd had it right?

*but violent videogames and shadowboxing are also mmicry of another act, and wouldnt say that murder in a videogame is the same as murdering someone in reality, nor would we count shadowboxing on a boxer's record.

If you woke up with a 6 year old fornicating you without consent or anything. Where would the morality stand then?

I say this from a person who had sexual urges at a really young age and probably would have acted on them if it wasn't ethically wrong. (I was shy)

>>3031

were you molested?

>>2479

>just because I offer judgement on which I act it isn't a moral judgement

Sophistry.

>>2145

Is that true ???

So in spain and mexico 12yo are legal ???

>>3158

yeah, but you need approval of parents or something

>>2139

Oh no, minors cannot show skin! The Muslims are SO VERY right to have women be cloaked and protected. Only we should be doing that for ALL people!

Seriously, the images you have there are not sexual (if they are, then any showing of skin could be taken as sexual, from the baby on the Nirvana album cover to ballet). You can visit a swimming pool and potentially see this stuff first hand. Sure, the fact its a photo-shoot may seem weird to some (maybe this is where the discomfort comes from?), and the notion of desperate people dissatisfied with the countless masturbatory aids at their disposal resorting to something like this might be abhorrent to others. But these pictures are not sexual. There is nothing wrong with them. Even if she was 'forced' to take these pictures (because, say, she cannot 'properly' consent), that concern is pure speculation anyway and might as well factor into every discussion about moral correctness ever. Ability to consent is not a minor-only question, after all.

>>2144

>genius 14 year old

Genius? In what sense? To know about sexuality and the risks (and rewards) associated with it? You don't have to be a genius for that, you have to be educated. Yet, if we educated minors more thoroughly to enable appropriate consent, I doubt people would be more open to the whole "having sex with minors" thing. It would then simply be cateorically stated that minors simply cannot give appropriate consent. Which is absolute rubbish even if it may be true for some.

>>2146

>What's socially acceptable in the act

What IS socially acceptable in the act? I think what you mean to say is that people shouldn't be coerced into doing things they don't want to do simply because a more experienced person says it's "normal" or "cool". Needless to say, this happens to minors and teens all the bloody time, but it happens to adults too. It could be addressed by telling people to stand up for themselves, but somehow sex seems to be a category all of its own.

>my 13 year old daughter

I hope you would do the same for your 13 year old son at least. Else that would be sexist as hell.

>>3015

Sexual does not have to mean sex, it can mean sex-related. Masturbation is sex-related, as much as arousal itself is, no matter if it's enacted upon.

Kind of a question of definitions, though, and probably not very helpful.

>>3031

What stopped you, ethical restrictions or shyness? Had an adult sensed your 'maturity' and promised discretion (and was also kind and whatever), would you have gone for it? Or would you still have preferred same or similar-old people?

>>3176

>Sexual does not have to mean sex, it can mean sex-related. Masturbation is sex-related, as much as arousal itself is, no matter if it's enacted upon.

>Kind of a question of definitions, though, and probably not very helpful.

in what way is your distinction helpful then?

>>3181

It isn't my distinction. You just leapt from 'sexual act' to 'sex', showing an image of the definition of 'sex' as opposed to 'sexual'.

If you are saying that people claiming masturbation as being sexual are saying the same as someone claiming that fictional violence is violent then that relies on the act of sex being the primary factor in what is deemed sexual. But that need not be the case. (Some people consider real damage to be necessary for something to count as violence, thus excluding damage-less mimicry. Likewise, sexual acts can be taken as an instance of, say, genital stimulation, thus not excluding masturbation.)

Because this depends on how you want to conceptualise the notion of 'sexual' it is a difference of premise regarding the meaning of the term and isn't really productive, but I still felt compelled to respond since you imply the direct link between 'sexual' and the act of sexual interaction with other people.

CP?

Bad

Lolicon?

Acceptable

Teen Models?

Probably bad

Non-Professional Teen Pics? (FB pics, for example)

Acceptable

>>3188

Good and bad is relative, moral is relative, everything is right and wrong at the same time, it depends on you, society ia about impose your ideas and get them accepted it, happened with women's rights, black people and gay people.

>>3176

>I think what you mean to say is that people shouldn't be coerced into doing things they don't want to do simply because a more experienced person says it's "normal" or "cool"

You're right, that's what I meant. I didn't phrase that correctly.

>>3158

kek we know where anon is going now

>>3197

I wish :/ I'm already from one of those countries and one friend (18 yo) got legal problems just for having a 14 yo gf, her parents really hated him

>>3176

I would of most likely gone for it. It was more ethical. The two girls I grew up around my age we did stuff, we trusted each other not to tell.

>CTRL + F "hebephilia"

>CTRL + F "ephebophilia"

>0 results

Fucking hell learn some shit about the subject, honestly. It's a different issue depending on whether the person is pre-pubescent, pubescent, or post-pubescent. The girl in the OP pic is 11 but clearly she's mature for her age. Being attracted to her would be one of the above two, but definitely not pedophilia.

Fucking someone who's still pre-pubescent is pretty black and white a bad thing because of consent issues and because they're not physically capable yet. You start getting into gray areas once they start being physically ready for sex, because it's no longer damaging to their health. The worst effects (that we know of) coming from people that age having sex are the potential for exploitation of naivety and the inevitable social fallout. It's much more a taboo than a reasonable fear. Humans have been having sex as soon as they could do it for millions of years. The current taboos around sex were mostly introduced by religious teaching. The pagans were very open about sex before the Christians converted them. The arguments against under-[age of consent]s having sex mostly boil down to vague threats of harm akin to the arguments against gays being allowed to do their own thing and scare mongering about someone hurting your kids. I think this is part of a deeper problem where we treat people like children for longer than is natural. Adulthood used to be seen as beginning exactly when someone hits sexual maturity. Now we talk of reaching maturity at 16-18 but we really reach full psychological maturity at about 25. Should the age of consent be raised to 25?

A Researched Post in Two Parts:

Part 1.

Actually, the majority of the evidence show that pedophilic relationships (in and of themselves) are not nearly as harmful as is commonly believed.

Now, different circumstances, such as relation of the offender, nature of the relationship (whether it's a relationship, or a person repeatedly raping the victim,) and societal reaction if the deed is discovered CAN significantly effect the minors, psychologically and socially.

In regard to age of consent, the things needed seem to be

1. Understanding of the acts being discussed.

2. Understanding of the possible consequences that could stem from the discussed act.

and 3. Desire to follow through with the discussed act without force or even pressure, in a lucid state of mind.

That being said, I understood sex from around age 11, and from discussion this seems to be a fairly average age.

However, if the person is an adult or older peer, simply the admiration the minor may feel may be enough to provide internal pressure, should the older party ask for sex. A younger party may not want to let the older down...

This is, of course, conjecture.

At its face, if a minor understands sex and sees themselves on an even level as their partner, there is no reason (in the above definition of consent) why consent should be an impossible thing.

Now, about my above statements about pedophilic relationships not being as harmful, I base this on actual reports.

https://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/tomoc/sexpriv_backgr_text.htm

This report, among other things, investigates reports of sexual offenses against minors in countries during brief periods when this manner of pornography was legal, as well as the times just before and after.

It points towards an inverse relationship, the more porn on a subject, the less sex-crimes.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/01602527/22/1

This article shows a similar relationship between pornography and sex crimes, in Japan.

More sources that support this are:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1359178909000445

http://idei.fr/sites/default/files/medias/doc/conf/sic/papers_2007/kendall.pdf

Given that information, making possession (but not necessarily production) charges illegal may actually reduce the number of CSA incidents.

Let us, then, move on to content of this pornography.

In regard to this type of pornography, roughly 1/3 involves adult intercourse with minors, nearly half is erotic nudity or genital display, and the rest is sexual acts involving children.

https://www.bookdepository.com/Child-Pornography-Ian-ODonnell/9781843923565

These statistics are not terribly important now, but may be useful later.

(note, given a broader definition of pornography, these numbers are much different, including <1% involving adults.)

http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/wjhm20/56/2

Now for this pornography's effect on the children involved.

Above-mentioned articles by Ian O'Donnell and by H. Mirkin show less harm than previously though.

But I'll let some of the children speak for themselves.

http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume4/j4_2_1_5.htm

These boys were part of a pornographic ring, had positive feelings about their abuser, and negative feelings about the police who ended the operation. They chose to remain in contact with the abuser even as adults.

They claim that the worst aspect of the photography as children was the betrayal of trust when the photographer (who was not essentially their abuser) sold the photos internationally.

My next source is not as clear:

The starter of this thread claims to be a boy pedophiles know as "spongebob" in a quite well-noted case.

He expresses many ill feelings about himself, and his offender, but it should be noted that he hates his offender for the same reason that the boys above hated their photographer. A complete betrayal of trust by the pornographer.

It may be noted that reports show the boy exhibiting positive changes in behavior during the times when the relationship was active. I do not know if this is actually the boy, but he does not seem as biased as one would expect an undercover pedophile or "antipedo" would be.

https://www.reddit.com/r/casualiama/comments/2tj10p/i_was_the_kid_behind_the_spongebob_child_porn_case/

This is quite in line with other reports, such as the infamous Rind, et al. report which showed a significantly lower relationship between cases of CSA and self-reported harm.

http://digilib.bc.edu/reserves/sc563/mcgu/sc56310.pdf

It should also be noted that Kinsey's books on Human Sexuality also show sexuality and sexual knowledge as present well before the age of 18.

All of this, plus the information that much of the material produced today is made, in fact, by minors, paints a radically different picture.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/children-producing-their-own-web-porn-26454111.html

>>No.3316

Part 2

There is one more piece of information I would like to produce, but cannot find at the moment, which is an article from a journal of sex research showing the relationship between CSA and depression in adult women.

This report showed almost no correlation between CSA and psychological problems in adult women as long as the incident did not involve coercion or actual use of force.

And finally, I would like to note that this is a subject that is not as well-researched as is should be. It is something that is important in today's culture, and it's something academics are usually punished for talking about, unless their evidence matches public opinion.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hawaii-man-opinions-on-sex-keep-him-from-becoming-teacher/

Simply for stating that you are not against is, seems to be enough to show that you are for it, which cannot be allowed.

Given the above information, I feel that the possession of this pornography should not be illegal.

I feel that age of consent laws, as they stand in my country, are not based in reason and are, therefore, in need of revision.

Unfortunately, we cannot judge these relationships on a case-by-case basis, with full knowledge of the events. Unfortunate, as well, that the social stigma seems to be worse than the incidents, in general, deserve.

For these reasons, I do feel that pedophilic relationships should remain illegal for the protection of the child.

I classify this last one as an act of pragmatism, simply because of how little we know at this moment.

Even if the act may not be harmful, the societal reaction probably is.

Finally, production of child pornography laws, should probably be rewritten to match the evidence, possibly giving more lenience to minors who are self-producers.

I do not feel we need under-aged sex-offenders.

Note: None of the links contain pornography of any kind.

All are research articles, news reports, places to access the material (academic catalogs) and one Reddit thread containing no pictures.

>>3316

>>3317

interesting

>>2934

r/K theory is obsolete. Smarter people tend to wait until they're older before they try to have kids (when they're more able). Also, they tend to be able to control themselves better.

>>3317

>>3316

This definitely merits further research.

Only thoughts I ever had on the subject comes from when I was going through puberty. I used to search the Internet for younger girls porn because that was my age and older women seemed wrong, not teen porn.i also wasn't very smart and never tried to hide behind proxies or anything while doing this so I got very lucky that I was never caught because if I was I would be guilty of a crime. A crime that would both be telling me that I'm not old enough to consent to sex but is also inherently a sex crime. This makes no sense and should never be enforced and really needs to be changed

It's obviously not a very black and white issue when it comes to attraction. Being attraction to OP's pic isn't wrong. She is incredibly mature and is wearing revealing clothing. If she looks like a toddler and you were sexually attracted to that then it would be worrying. Eitherway knowingly and willingly having sex with someone so young is definitely wrong. They are not mentally and possibly physically able to go through with such an act in good judgement.

>>3316

Though I mostly share your conclusions, I did not reach them through much scientific research, though anecdotes and forums helped. Rather, being more of a social liberal and trying to have an open mind while questioning the foundation of sexuality did it. It was a slow thought process, and I don't think I could have made the cognitive jump if I were still prejudiced against gays, trannies, "sexual deviants", the sexually promiscuous, and fornificators. It's really not society's business to harshly judge and punish people for what they consent to do in a bed room, or to dictate in absolutes which bonds are off limits. People should become accustomed to finding fair exceptions for every rule.

For example, I know of a forum post where an older woman has admitted to fucking her younger brother. They both post and say they're in love with each other, and the brother has a heart condition that will give him an early death, and they both have a lot of emotional issues from childhood abuse - the brother even tried to kill himself once. If these two can find stability in each other and don't have retarded kids, it shouldn't matter that the brother is technically still a senior at High School and it's incest.