/philosophy/ - Philosophy

Much more readable and interesting than Adam Smith. Wish I had a Marxist professor in college to teach all about Communism.

Why didn't you post your thoughts on Marx?

8ch.net/leftypol/res/489512.html

>>3364

Do you agree with his philosophy and or economics?

Personally I think he's outdated. Although I haven't finished Das Kapital.

>>3365

>can't link boards properly

>>3365

>>>/leftypol/489512

there

he was a jew

>>3363

His (economic) theories were interesting but just that: theories.

They were the type of thing that's 2-3 steps removed (at least) from practical application. The comparison would be the idea of full direct democracy (i.e. voting on every decision, big and small, a government must make). Brilliant on paper but broken in practice.

>>3366

>Personally I think he's outdated.

Also this though on some level that was part of the motive for removing certain industries in the West during the cold war.

>>3471

Confirmed for having no idea what Marx's theories are about.

At least make some attempt to read him besides the gommunist manifesto you lazy bastard.

>>3474

Well I probably should have specified economic theories.

I've read his shit before (in a class that was basically propaganda) and the impression I got was nice ideas without any practical thought put in there.

Of course this is also true of most economic theories that have been adopted.

>>3474

>>3475

Or maybe more accurately he reminds me of Freud.

Interesting ideas with no regard for proper objective methodology in proving them.

>>3475

You misunderstand, your point of economic theory is exactly what I meant.

You're clearly ignorant of Marx's own aim, and so is your teacher. It's called the "Critique of political economy" for a reason. Marx isn't aiming at an applicable theory, he's aiming to reveal the implicit problems of the very conception of a an economy based on the idea of exchange value.

Marx's point is exactly yours: economic theories have so far been plain stupid and apologetics for one hell of a shitty social system. Marx's whole aim in all his theories is to point out that the idea that there is a "market", that there is something objective and natural about the idea of exchange value, and that the worldviews/attitudes of people under capitalism as natural are all delusions of humans who don't realize that they are the source of the authority and power of these social structures.

tl;dr: Marx's point is that if you believe in something like markets and money as just natural economics, you're even worse than Freud believing in the unconscious. At least Freud had an empirical basis (now clearly neurological too), while believers in capitalism are literally theologians in disguise.

My degree was in business, and I personally have an affection for this man after all the neo-conservative propaganda I had to endure to get my degree. I don't hold the solutions yet, but I do know what I was taught in my concentration was full of self-serving fallacies and delusions. I truly believe he identified many problems correctly, and there is not enough dialog about how we could make democratic socialism work in america. People here are so uncritical, and dismissive of anything that even sounda like Socialist thought, that they naturally remain stuck with an obsolete and apathetic system that was founded on nearly pure greed, and was built around the lucky few. Needless to say, this is what the capital owners want.

But without socialism, or progressives, there wouldn't even be public schools for the masses, and we would be little better than superstitious peasents or cavemen. Most of us would be low level simians led by princes, when we could have a society of unions, collective bargaining, brotherhood, and universal education similar to the Nordic model.

A benevolent system formed on empathy was what Adam Smith wanted, not unlike Karl Marx. And damn Milton Friedman for optimistic ideas that trashed our economy and brainwashing the masses into believing in invisible hands and lazy fairies, and that a ship doesn't need a helmsman to guide it around the rocks. His proclamations were anti-intellectual, regressive, and pseudo-religious.

Tl; dr: praise the destroyer of opium.

>>3493

He didn't just write The wealth of Nations you know. He was more of a philosopher l than an Economist and he also wrote a theory of moral sentiments. Plus he often wrote about how government could better care for the welfare of the whole in his more famous work.

>>3479

How can you be sure that public schools were even required to teach the masses? First you speak of propaganda in class, then you claim public classes are a good thing. I imagine since you come to infinity Chan much of what you learn is done on your own, and if that's true, public schooling could only be detrimental to your knowledge base. People learn when there is an incentive to learn. It didn't take very long after printing books was made cheap enough for the masses to enjoy them for the masses to learn how to read and this was without public schooling. Something like 70% of Americans were literate before public schools became compulsory and if the people were willing to learn to read it stands to reason the people were willing to learn anything to help themselves and if they know how to read they have every opportunity to do so through libraries and in today's age the Internet, right?

Genuinely asking but not looking to argue

>>3501

Unattended kids mostly want to play games and require guidance to learn in a productive manner. Before public school became compulsory they either loafed around, or more likely were forced into sweat shops or working on a farm like unevolved proletariats. Public schools create a lowest common denominator of shared education which is neccessary for advancement.

A 70% literacy rate is horrible btw, and says nothing of whether most of them have more than a 3rd grade reading level, or were homeschooled by their Amish parents to only be able to read the KJV bible. It says nothing of whether they can read a contract.

There are a frightening number of blue collar types who actually take pride in how little they know, and one of the effects of schooling is it elevates awareness of the higher thought processes of those who have actually applied themselves to learning. Taking away public schools or mandatory education removes a social equalizer, and guarantees a lower average level of education that is more susceptible to being manipulated by powerful elites and demagoguery.

He's full of contradictions, for example: All history has been class struggle, and this dialectic will eventually lead to communism, but only if the workers have learned that this is case and have been made class conscious. This is a self-fullfilling prophecy, and one that failed to fullfill itself.

>>3518

That's not a contradiction. That's the very thing you expect from a philosophy of parctical theory like Marx. The communist revolution is a conscious revolution, theory is true by generating practice. It has certainly generated incredible amounts of practice towards its aim.

It's not been falsified, the proles really did try to make it happen, but the world is not a vacuum experimemt. It's also not a historical inevitability for next year or any year, it's merely the latent possibility so long as capitalism exists.

Shit tier criticism.

>>3519

If history is people acting in a manner their class dictates them to do, and if this dialectic will lead to communism, then why must it first be instructed? Them having to be instructed means that people don't act in the manner marx claims that they do, or they wouldn't need this instruction.

The world is indeed not a vacuum experiment, not the vacuum of marxist reductionism.

>>3521

Marx isn't a reductionist. The theory/practice, ideal/material relation are easy to see.

>>3522

The theory is that all will inevitably happen as decided by dialectics, and historical materialism, and the contradictions of capitalism.. and all else imagined to bolster the conclusion that it indeed must be made so, with clear instructions to create the inevitable as to complete the prophecy of it's inevatibility.

"The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles."" Chapter one of the communist manifesto, Marx was unambigious about the fact that he was a reductionist and scolded economists who were less so as bourgoise lackeys covering up the underlying class mechanics. To Marx, reductionism was liberating, a clear view unobscured by opium haze. Nowadays it is piety, Marxism has turned more monastic than ever before, it is the stuff of refurbished seminaries, a circle jerk for the initiated beneficiaries of his revelation.

>>3523

>communist manifesto

Gee, you'd think that in a political piece telling people to do something, the writer would be positive to an unreal degree, just like all politicians.

You're an idiot. TCM is not a theoretical piece, and Marx does not mean any of that as an argument. You have no idea what dialectics are, nor how marx saw things

>>3526

No, I don't think that Marx would argue in bad faith to achieve greater incitement, and when discussing him I have more trust in his own writings than a proclaimed translator who tells me "I'd think he was just pretending, because all politicians are alike". For that matter, we could as well take Marx as an epic troll who was rusing to an unreal degree.

>>3529

>his own writings

Oh yes, the CM is totally all of his writings and meant to be the basis of Marxism, yeah, totally.

>>3529

I read the CM pamphlet in about an hour, but did you know he has written actual HUNDRED plus page BOOKs for intellectuals? Including the one that was published 50 years after his death which attacked German idealists?

>>3530

It sums up it's conclusions and proposals, nowhere does it contradict das kapital, the communist manifesto wasn't a master trole work in which he only pretended be a class reductionist.

>>3531

The German Ideology was an acummulation of the sassyness of marx and engels that they already displayed in das kapital.

>>3363

I agree with him entirely when he says the means of production should be operated and controlled by those who are directly working with it on a day to day basis. Unionized workers know what is best for the country they live in as they experience first hand the effects of their labor. However, the elimination of the concept of social class is absolutely idiotic and is an extreme solution for a problem that can be solved by redefining what it means to be apart of a specific social class. No, social class should not be influenced by how much wealth one carries, but by the capabilities of said individuals. With classes in which wealth is the main factor in determining how capable you are, you often get idiots with large sums of money infiltrating important positions in politics and economics. However, with a society in which there is no social class, you again get idiots from all different walks of life doing the same thing as the rich in communities in which there is social class. The only difference between the two is the chances of an incompetent moron getting into positions of power is much greater in a classless society than in a class-based society.

Some might say that this statement therefor proves that a class-based society works better than a classless one. However, just by shrinking the number of possible morons to run your countries, you are only limiting the choices you have for which moron you actually want running your lives, not actually getting rid of the problem.

"Than what do you propose would be a better system?"

Good question, simply categorize people based on their education and capabilities. A working class for laborers, a political class for intellectuals and head-strong leaders, and a economics class for those who excel in... Well... Economics. By seperating individuals into these three classes, you can therefor simplify the educational system and situate individuals into a curiculum in which they will thrive. You also create a system in which one class cannot survive without the other. The political class will have to rely on the economic and working class in order to accomplish the goals of the society, which will in turn lead to progress. The economic class will need laborers to help keep the nation moving in terms of production, and the political class to enforce economic reform when needed. The laborers need the political class in order to bring them safety, and the economic class to do the complex algorithims in order to keep them from starving, because lets face it, factory workers, while good at controlling the means of production, are no good with figuring out how to utilize it.

That is just where me and marx disagree on how a community should operate, his thoughts of destroying the family unit and all that bullshit make me wish he would have shut his mouth on things outside of economics. Although you niggas probably call things like culture, the family unit, etc. etc. spooks, these things are healthy for humanity, and if destroyed would plunge humans into a confusing pit of chaos and mental illness.

>>3617

Since the labourers are the chief means of production, shouldn't managers operate and control them?

>>3617

How do you know that idiots acquiring economic power isn't a good thing? Perhaps it's akin to the natural checks and balances of economic power and the only thing we need to do is utilize that power, allowing that rich idiot to waste his money causing a power vacuum within the economy to be filled by a smart middle class person.

>>3622

A good example of idiots with economic power is the former USSR. Through destalinization, a plan to destroy everything associated with stalin, including the very effective methods used in order to bring the Soviets into the title of a world superpower within two decades, the union had become stagnant by the 70's because of incompetent economic theorists.

You simply cannot look at economics from the standpoint of politics. A country can do just fine with an incompetent leader for 3/4ths of a century at most, but incompetent economists can destroy a nation within a matter of decades.

>>3619

Of course, but these managers should be of the same thread as the workers. We cannot simply place a politician or an economist without any experience in laboring in control of laborers. A laboring class made up of various unions for each profession would work with great efficiency.

>>3623

>including the very effective methods used in order to bring the Soviets into the title of a world superpower within two decades

It's the "but they reached a high civ score in imperialism earth" meme again. The stalinist economy relied on getting as much people into heavy industry as possible, since there is no endless amount of people, this could only lead to stagnation. Due to there being incentives for mismanagement and the calculation problem being inherent in the soviet economy, stagnation was inevitable, not a matter of personal incompetency.

>>3624

The Germans and Scandinavian countries do this. American does not, hence the huge income inequality and unnecessarily higher working hours, i.e. exploitation.

>>3623

That's an example of idiots with both economic and political power making it impossible for the power vacuum to be utilized. A system where economic power cannot be used to enforce political ideology is what I'm referring to. Or perhaps even a stagnant political policy which cannot be eroded.

Marx is given more credit then he's due. His entire worldview relies on the concept of us vs. them, of plebian vs. bourgeoisie. This is, in essence, a false dichotomy. Our society is not a set of pre-defined classes, it's a body of individuals, each with different circumstances, achievements, possessions, experiences, etc.

It was easier to defend this false dichotomy in Marx's time, when the aristocracy was so much more wealthy than other groups, but as the economy has industrialized and the diverse middle class now makes up the majority of the population of industrialized nations, it's become more and more scathingly obvious that there are no classes, and there will be no class revolution.

This is not to mention that his proposed "ideal" society is, like most idealist propositions, impossible, and goes against every facet of natural human behaviour. People will always want a little slice of life they can call their own, they will never voluntarily submit to the idea that their wealth should be plundered by the rest of society in the name of some vain comprehension of "equality".

There are only men and the things men build. Anyone with any connection to reality inevitably realizes this, and abandons Marx's deluded dream.

>>3672

tl;dr

btfo collectivism & idealist socialism

>>3672

aristotle said it better.

>>3672

>"I never read Marx, but I like to talk out my ass as if I did" : The post.

You couldn't even argue against Hegelian idealism with that kind of ignorance, son.

>false dichotomy

Not even the arch idealist was this stupid.

>It was easier to defend this false dichotomy in Marx's time

It's easier to defend now if you actually know about world politics and international economics.

>proposed ideal society

Oh, you mean that society Marx never wrote about? Communism isn't anything for Marx other than pure freedom from economic want and by immediate result the submission to other humans for any reason in order to live. Is this unreal? Yes, yes it is, but not for the reason you think.

>There are only men and the things men build.

And there is the history of humans, which is entirely a history of culture and social formations and not Ugg out in the forest all on his own thinking up of how to package wild dog meat to trade with the next erect ape to walk by. You're deluded beyond belief in claiming you're a "realist" when your concept of humans is as stupidly abstract, unscientific, and plain idealistic as one gets. You've never studied child cognitive development and psychology have you?

>>3679

>you're ignorant because I said so

>you're stupid because I said so

>if you only had my opinion then you wouldn't have your opinion god what an idiot

>Marx never wrote about an idealic society, to him, he was writing about an idealic society

>Allow me to totally fail to understand the context of your statement, reference cavemen (???), then call you a deluded idiot because in your post you didn't qualify you're experience with juvenile cognitive development

Wow what a train-wreck. That post was the college-educated version of base name calling. Next time, attack my argument, not me.

When I said "btfo collectivism", it should have solidified to you that what I was attempting to refute was the idea of trying to fit human societies into a class structure. In reality, there are no social classes, and the role of individuals in our society is so much more incredibly diverse than the black and white of proletariat or bourgeoisie. In essence, Marx's world view is narrow-minded and fails to explain the most basic phenomena in human society. If you had actually thought about what I was saying, you would have realized this was what I meant. Instead, you saw that I was disagreeing with Marx, turned off your brain, and started typing. And by the way, I have read TCM. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I haven't seen the same material as you have.

There is an interesting, and I believe relevant, observation to make concerning the societal analysis of TCM and Orwell's 1984. In 1984, which was written after the rise of the middle class, Orwell included a third class. He stated that all human societies have been made up of three classes, those in power (the bourgeoisie), those out of power (the proletariats), and those trying to get into power (the middle class). However, if you look at even more modern analysis of society, they often include an upper lower class, a lower middle class, an upper middle class, a lower upper class, and sometimes even a upper upper class or lower lower class. What these observations imply to me, is that with a modern, industrialized, class-mobile economy, and an increased understanding of sociology and economics, Marx's dichotomy has broken down, blurred into smaller and less defined classes, until the point today where such a viewpoint is essentially useless for any real understanding of society. Again, I must repeat, there are no classes, no "class struggle", only individuals.

Now, about your last paragraph. You really made a stretch in order to take me saying that people always want possessions to degrading the entire population to cavemen dog-meat traders. It's honestly an impressive degree of manipulation. Allow me to elaborate my position, because you seem to have failed in every respect to understand what I was trying to communicate. My position is that possession is a part of individuality. No true Marxist society could ever exist because people will always try to stake their own claim. To illustrate this idea, examine any of the failed socialist states around the world. What is inevitably the downfall of these states is corruption. No matter how much party propaganda is put up and idealistic campaigning blasted over the airwaves, the people in positions of power never fail to abuse said power to accrue personal wealth. Why? Because possession, and to a certain extent, greed, are a part of human nature. No, I don't have an idealistic view of humans. If you want my opinion of humans, I would say that we have immense potential, and much of the time that potential lays unused and undisciplined, people instead turning to more carnal, immediate concerns.

With your reply, I would very much appreciate it if you would maintain some semblance of civil discourse, and examine my ideas for their worth before dismissing them blindly. Thank you.

>>3683

your not going to get anything better out of him, as he believes chans are exclusively for shitposting. see >>3308

>>3683

>Wow what a train-wreck. That post was the college-educated version of base name calling.

Next time, attack my argument, not me.

Next time, make an argument.

I’m sorry, but the post you made doesn’t have anything I consider worth calling an argument. I give a response quality equivalent to what is posted.

>When I said "btfo collectivism", it should have solidified to you that what I was attempting to refute was the idea of trying to fit human societies into a class structure.

Well, Marx never did that. Class does not exhaust the entire range of human experience and life, it’s just the major background for a huge part of it. This is why I say you have no argument, you have no idea what the fuck you’re even arguing against. Why would I bother “arguing” against someone who just attacks strawmen because he’s too lazy to go actually fucking READ the sources instead of relying on shitty second and third hand say.

>In reality, there are no social classes, and the role of individuals in our society is so much more incredibly diverse than the black and white of proletariat or bourgeoisie. In essence, Marx's world view is narrow-minded and fails to explain the most basic phenomena in human society. If you had actually thought about what I was saying, you would have realized this was what I meant.

Look, I get you. I do, I once thought like you, but I have this tick with people like you ignoring the conceptual structure of what you’re arguing against. You know why I admire Marx and Hegel? They could argue from within a scheme and show it to be by concept illogical or wrong. If you just bring some new definition to the table, there is no argument being made against the other position, it’s just another concept that isn’t what was being talked about. Marx’s concept of class is a structural relationship, it’s not class in the feudal, caste, or categorial sense. You an I are, despite what you think, not on the same playing field. Your concept and mine are not up to being debated around some third arbitrator concept or fact, so you argue within Marx's conceptions or you don't bother.

>Instead, you saw that I was disagreeing with Marx, turned off your brain, and started typing. And by the way, I have read TCM. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I haven't seen the same material as you have.

>TCM

TCM is literally a political pamphlet for a moment and not a theoretical piece. I’ve read Capital and quite a bit of secondary reading. I can only tell you the TCM is a joke to any Marxist scholars when it comes to theoretical foundation for Marx’s views. If you can, just read the Critique of The Gotha Program; that has far more relevance than TCM.

>There is an interesting, and I believe relevant, observation to make concerning the societal analysis of TCM and Orwell's 1984. In 1984, which was written after the rise of the middle class, Orwell included a third class. He stated that all human societies have been made up of three classes, those in power (the bourgeoisie), those out of power (the proletariats), and those trying to get into power (the middle class). However, if you look at even more modern analysis of society, they often include an upper lower class, a lower middle class, an upper middle class, a lower upper class, and sometimes even a upper upper class or lower lower class. What these observations imply to me, is that with a modern, industrialized, class-mobile economy, and an increased understanding of sociology and economics, Marx's dichotomy has broken down, blurred into smaller and less defined classes, until the point today where such a viewpoint is essentially useless for any real understanding of society. Again, I must repeat, there are no classes, no "class struggle", only individuals.

Once again, you have no idea of what Marx’s theory was. Marx acknowledged that there are more than the two classes. This is like liberal communist level knowledge, socialist hipsters know this and you don’t. Think about that. Marx’s position was that there were two main classes, the capitalist and the wage worker. There is class warfare, have you ever had a fucking job and lived paycheck to paycheck? Do you really ignore politics this badly?

>Now, about your last paragraph. You really made a stretch in order to take me saying that people always want possessions to degrading the entire population to cavemen dog-meat traders.

No, no I didn’t. It wasn’t about human desires, it was a point about empirical science concerning the development of human psychology. My point was that individualism is not just conceptually untenable, it’s empirically outright false. We KNOW how humans develop and how they are motivated, and your favored myth does not fit what we have discovered. This isn’t some argument for “blank slate” or noble savage, it’s just the fact of human sociality proven by psychology and neurology.

>>3683

>My position is that possession is a part of individuality. No true Marxist society could ever exist because people will always try to stake their own claim. To illustrate this idea, examine any of the failed socialist states around the world. What is inevitably the downfall of these states is corruption. No matter how much party propaganda is put up and idealistic campaigning blasted over the airwaves, the people in positions of power never fail to abuse said power to accrue personal wealth. Why? Because possession, and to a certain extent, greed, are a part of human nature.

Once again, you don’t understand Marx’s positions. Possessions aren’t of interest to Marx, private property is. Possession isn’t a complex thing, animals have possessions. Private property, however, is control of a thing in absence for Marx, and his interest is in socially created and used means in control of private hands. But, ok, let me humor you.

P1 – Possession is part of individuality (P is part of I)

P2 – People try to stake their own claim (I always tries to claim PP—private property)

Conclusion: “Marxist” society (i.e. socialism) cannot exist because it denies possession

So, P1 is just a claim with no backing, but ok that’s normal for philosophy 101. You have a problem with P2 because you just introduce a new conceptual claim that doesn’t have any reason to follow (private property, I know that’s where you’re going because claims are an issue of rights), and it doesn’t follow even from your silly notions of possession if it’s as simple as the claim of “It’s mine”. If that is all P1 is, “It’s mine”, then Marx has nothing to disagree, in fact that’s one of the FUCKING ASPECTS OF THE THEORY OF ALIENATION. I’m alienated from things, society, and myself, because it is all part of me, “mine”, and yet I live in a social arrangement where I have no say about this world which is not only mine, but the condition of my being, and I a condition of it. Your conclusion is false, 1) because it’s just not what Marx’s idea of society is 2) your argument isn’t even valid as a syllogism due to P1 and P2 having no necessary connection, two claims that don’t go together without some other propositions making that link in-between.

>No, I don't have an idealistic view of humans. If you want my opinion of humans, I would say that we have immense potential, and much of the time that potential lays unused and undisciplined, people instead turning to more carnal, immediate concerns.

Idealism is abstraction. You do have an abstract view of humans, that’s what individualism is. The claim that there are only individuals and society is their happenstance product by interaction which is just accidental to the individuals involved, there is no necessary relation to others. You’re de facto idealistic. Read Hegel’s short satirical essay “Who Thinks Abstractly?”

>With your reply, I would very much appreciate it if you would maintain some semblance of civil discourse, and examine my ideas for their worth before dismissing them blindly. Thank you.

You need to really read Hegel.

>>3685

You need to lighten up, bucko.

>>3683

So, in conclusion:

READ MARX BEFORE CRITICIZING MARX

Your argument isn't against Marx, or Marxism, it's against literally nobody because nobody stands by what you described. There is no "Marxist" social model, want to know why? Because Marx thought, with very good reason, that society, politics, and economics, were ALL FICTIONS of humanity's ignorance of itself, and the state of affairs that isn't any of those is what communism is.

You also have a highly weak conception of individuality (what you mean is self, and that is a highly debated issue concerning subjectivity).

Luckily, the world is much richer in detail and context than your conceptions of it.

>>3716

What are you now, and what made you change?

>>3519

https://mises.org/library/economics-and-revolt-against-reason

>>3722

I had guessed as much. You were just an edgy gommunist who never actually looked into it and just went with the next intellectual fad.

Once you understand Marx's logic and argument, you can't possibly go back to something as garbage as Mises' shitty theory and worse philosophy.