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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)
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Ya'll need Mises.

File: a90ff2fce17f2ac⋯.gif (20.18 KB, 644x652, 161:163, mathchart.gif)


I used to be a socialist when I was in my teenage years. Anyone else here have a similar past? For me, it probably started because–I shit you not–of SimCity. It was kind of cool, I mean, there's certainly much more of a social scene in socialist groups than with libertarians, and at least when I was in uni I found it a lot easier being a socialist than any other kind of ideology.

The first crack had to be how poisonous socialists really can be with each other. I mean, I understand libertarians have their own version of this, but at least I haven't seen the majority of libertarians go completely vindicative spreading every false rumor under the Sun to your entire social circle. Or how violently angered they get with you over disagreements. I mean, libertarians do the same, but at least with libertarian friends I've been able to talk to them the next day.

More importantly, there were just this pervasive, fundamental issues underlying socialism, and it had to do with this underlying and pervasive atmosphere of hubris combined with moral righteousness. "Oh, you poor African country, I know what your problem is. Here, let me fix it for you." At first, it felt good to give these sort of arguments that made me feel so much more intelligent than everyone else, or even to give to charities with this kind of thinking. But after pragmatically looking at the consistently terrible results, it's just very difficult to maintain that kind of cognitive dissonance.

That wasn't really what dealt the killer blow. It's weird, because I really liked building and engineering systems, which was why I like(d) SimCity so much, and I applied the same thinking to naturally come to a socialist position. But when I started thinking from the perspective of just how amazing self-organizing systems are (especially since they require practically NO engineering), and the natural consequence of what sort of things happen when you let others find their own way, then that was when my support for socialism finally began to dissolve and I could see all the other faults that had been building up in my thoughts over my youth.


…of course, fascism and capitalism are the only two systems (except perhaps monarchism) in which one person plans everything.

Conversely, such is literally directly antithetical to socialism. I'm guessing you've never used a credit union, worked in a democratically managed firm, or, you know, anything else?

Ah well. Welcome to the board.


File: 63e7c072a027792⋯.pdf (138.82 KB, I Pencil.pdf)

Welcome to the board. I can't say I came here through the same mechanisms as you did, but from the descriptions you give, I think you'll get a kick out of the essay, "I, Pencil." It gives a lot of insight into not just the efficiency, but the beauty of decentralized systems.


And pray tell, what is 'socialism'?



It hasn't existed yet, but we are getting close. We just need to practice a few more times.


File: 33b2c47ff3e5b06⋯.jpg (90.06 KB, 1047x488, 1047:488, journalists.jpg)




>Anyone else here have a similar past?

I can't say that I was ever a socialist or that it was the Sims that convinced me to change my ways but hey anon, if it helps you put things into perspective then it's clearly productive I suppose.


File: c51414d46c90e8e⋯.jpg (7.13 KB, 259x194, 259:194, bump.jpg)

Have a bump, friend.


File: 5c3b3aee2c4b794⋯.jpg (171.79 KB, 959x960, 959:960, DhveI-tVQAAvswc.jpg)


I was such an insanely jealous and egotistical commie in my teens and early twenties, and it had a lot more to do with me being a butthurt loser and an outcast than anything in economics.

I just wanted to live in a kind of world that would accomodate me and my desires perfectly and hand me all the things that I wanted without me having to put effort into getting them, because I totally knew how incapable I was at getting what I wanted myself. It felt like there was an invisible force pushing down on me and preventing me from being happy or getting successful in life, which is why I was drawn to all kind of different brands of socialism that promised me some order in life, to beat up the bad guy and give me what I felt I was entitled to. It appealed to all my weakness and desires. The moral righteousness was a big thing too: It was never me who was wrong, it was the whole world and everyone in it that was stupid and complacent and was just following the rules of imperfect capitalism like cattle and wageslaving themselves instead of thinking for themselves and finding the courage to try something new and different and try out perfect socialism once again.

Later on my mentality changed, I stopped being a victim, I stopped blaming others, I took responsibility for myself, and I realized that the only reason why everything sucked before was that, despite the world being unfair, I still had some power to do something about it and achieve what I want, and the real bad guy is not companies, it's not normies, it's not rich people, it's those that try to take away my power to seek my own version of happiness. Not sure if this makes any sense… I don't really know what it was that made me an ancap, changing my mentality from a victim to some who takes responsibility was definitely a catalyst, but it just kinda clicked with me. I think what drew in to it first was the edginess of it, then it was the "fact" that as chaotic as it might be, it's still a good way of running society without some fucking government rat breathing down your throat and telling you what to do, and after that I was doing research and getting redpilled by other ancaps on reasons why shit still sucks despite us living in a (supposedly) "capitalist" society. What kinda pisses me off, is that no one ever told me about this stuff before: almost every day there is trendy commie propaganda being thrown at me, but I was never told about libertarianism until my mid-twenties, after which everything made SO MUCH sense and my view of the world was radically different, and I think it's true for so many other people.

Anyways, threads like this are really underrated, because understanding why you stopped being a commie is important for helping you connect with others who are still commies and showing them a way out. It made realize just now that arguing about economics is usually NOT about logical shit like: "socialism is bad because X, Y, and Z", it's more being emotional like: "look, I understand why you feel that way, I understand how hard it is to deal with [describe problem in detail], that's why I support [solution] so that you would be better off", you have to be extremely patient and empathetic and explain capitalism in a calm, easy to understand way, because maybe they already agree with you, it's just you're the first person to ever tell them about it.

This is also why I shill for self-help and self-improvment as much as I shill for capitalism. Successful, mentally healthy people do not turn to socialism, it's usually weak people who dwell on negativity, or the ambitious psychopaths who directly have something to gain from taking such a position.





Thanks for the welcome.


>The moral righteousness was a big thing too

I feel similar. I'm not sure whether it was moral righteousness in my case, or just an absolutely insane ego and an unending supply of narcissism, but I guess the two aren't independent of one another.

>This is also why I shill for self-help and self-improvment as much as I shill for capitalism.

I never would have made a connection like this, but it does make sense.


Have never been a socialist, as I couldn't have cared less about economics before I learned about anarchocapitalism. It was a gigantic blind spot to me, economics. I didn't learn it, I didn't care about it. When I held a talk about the banking system, all my talking points were given to me. I was the equivalent of the Chinese Room, rearranging symbols and forming sentences without understanding what I did. In hindsight, I must say that God has blessed me with this ignorance. I was an entitled shit, a "nice guy", someone who complained about capitalists for doing only what they wanted instead of what is right, all that stuff. I would say that at that time, envy was my greatest fault. At the same time, I never felt quite happy being envious. At first, there was Nietzsche whispering "slave morality" into my ear. I never even liked Nietzsche very much, and I like him even less now, but no one wants to follow a slave morality. You can shake him off if you have a solid ethical grounding, but I didn't, not at the time. Then, along came Rand, whose book Atlas Shrugged I read out of curiosity (testament to how much free time I had). I didn't like the book, and I found Rand repulsive, but even so, I couldn't shake off what she said about entitlement. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't quite convince myself that Dagny Taggarts or Hank Reardens utter lack of entitlement didn't have something noble to it. The coup de grace came when I then I stumbled upon the NAP, and finally realized that nope, you are not entitled to anything, kid. By now, influenced by examples of famines, by Thomism and the Bible, I have softened up on that stance, somewhat, but not nearly to the point where I wouldn't sneer at some douche claiming he "deserves" a girlfriend just because he is nice and holds open doors, or where I would accept it if someone in need acted like he had a claim to anyones money, instead of merely appealing to their sense of charity. Beggars, while they should occasionally be supported, cannot drag anyone to court for not doing so.




And concerning self-improvement, I also like to shill for that. It is true, when you can perform well, you stop feeling as entitled. It's not even just about performance, you merely need to stop getting in the habit of finding excuses for yourself. If you make the effort of finding a job, and know that you have found it by putting in this effort and having the required skills, you lose your stake in being entitled, and may even get repulsed by it. You know you get things done, and you also like to get the credit for it, instead of some politician who never worked a day in his life doing it for you, giving you a job and patting himself on the back for having helped a complete loser.

Also, when you stop feeling inadequate and worthless, you don't have to brush up your ego with politics anymore. When you are actually in a position to help others, you lose the impulse to be charitable with the money of others. That's simulated charity, whereas you have tasted the real deal, and are now in a position to also taste contempt for looters who try to legislate their way to being good people. Likewise, when you are buff, or at least have mental strength, militarism usually loses some of its appeal. You don't need to imagine yourself in a military parade to feel strong anymore. And when you lose whatever inferiority complex you had, you feel threatened, not strengthened, by mass movements, as they suppress your personality instead of giving you a personality. You also become less vicious and cruel. People with low self-esteem are more likely to kick others while they are down, to fight without rules, and to get off on scenes of extreme violence against things considered sacred. When a pregnant antifa-chick walks past a group of libertarians, you can bet they will think "that poor child". Pregnant girl with MAGA-hat walks past antifa-goons, I guarantee you, they will wish curse the fetus.

So yeah, lots of ways in which being a good person improves your politics, too.


I didn't see one argument against communism.



Well, for an analytical philosopher, there were no arguments in any of this. For a human, who can think for himself and come to logical conclusions even when arguments are only implied and not presented in a syllogistic form, statements like "envious assholes become communists" and "misanthropes like socialism" should at least give pause for thought. When people who fix their lifes stop demanding gibs, even when they are more compassionate and charitable afterwards, then that strongly hints that communism is adopted out of base motives. And while it is entirely possible that a bunch of entitled shitheads nevertheless hit the nail on the head, that their intellectual reasons are good even if their psychological motives are base, that isn't usually what happens.

If that isn't good enough for you, if you want arguments against communism and not against communists, there are enough threads to indulge yourself with, enough books we recommend, and enough infographs and pics. Lately, I have made more screenshots of good responses to such topics as UBI. If you want intellectual discourse, just go ahead, open a topic asking us for the five best arguments against central economic planning, or against the Marxist ideology.

Of course, you can also convince us that communists are better persons than we give them credit for. I probably won't believe you, but I like to think myself as a fairly rational guy, and I do change my mind occasionally, when I am presented with convincing evidence.




>one person plans everything

Oh no, it's retarded



You're right. Capitalism is when literally anyone can walk off the street and run the company, while socialism is when the owner tells the workers what their job is.

>Oh no, it's retarded


Communism doesn't work because people are self-serving shitheads. Even if everything is perfect, we seek an advantage over our fellow man. Everything is great, lets throw someone out over pointless drama! When everyone is collaborating and sharing, some psycho NEEDS to fuck everyone over and take it all for themselves. They might just destroy everything of value in the process, in that case, they just enjoy the power.

I've been in communes and seen this happen in person. These days, I've been putting trust in things I know are working. I believe in small incremental improvements and distrust people who make fantastic claims.



>Capitalism is when literally anyone can walk off the street and run the company

Is there only one company in the entire world?

This collectivist tripe, assuming "the capitalist class" has a set of uniform interests and so does "the working class", is completely ignorant of game theory and psychology. The capitalists' greatest enemy is other capitalists.


>This collectivist tripe

…such as one person owning and orchestrating the collective actions of others?

Words don't mean shit to you, do they?

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