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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)

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Welcome to /liberty/, your board for the discussion of politics, society, news, and the human condition without authoritarianism (fascism, full-on communism, etc). The board's philosophy is simple - welcome all discussion from non-authoritarian viewpoints, light moderation, and most importantly of all fun.

We've seen SJWs, we've seen the far right, and we've seen the far left and we've said no, stop this madness - the moralizing authoritarians who seek to control society and shape it to their whims and test out their vague theories would enslave us just to feel that society was better. At /liberty/ we believe we would be best served by sticking to the path we've been on for so long, that of personal liberty.


See the image - if you make the cut, you'll be right at home on /liberty/. Even if you are an authoritarian (far left or far right), you're welcome to join us - just don't expect to be taken seriously.


1. Global Rules uber alles.

2. Spamming can result in a short ban. In the event of raids, discussion threads will be stickied to weather the storm.

3. Rules are lame, don't make me make more and don't whine for more moderation unless it is absolutely necessary.

4. This board has an actual topic and it's not fetish porn. Content that is clearly beyond the pale of the board's topic (fetish porn, clop, gore, etc) will be removed. If you need these things, they are a mere three clicks away; you can even get there one-handed.

Board Policy Vis-a-vis…

1. "Shitposting"

There is no such thing as shitposting. It's a vague and subjective concept that boils down to "irreverent posts or things I don't like," and therefore makes a bad yardstick for moderation. If you want discussion without fun, may I suggest another board?

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Help to compile a list of resources (preferably free) about non-authoritarian political thought. If you want to see something added, make a thread to discuss adding things to this list and I'll edit it in here if it's good.

Our list so far:
Please note that inclusion on this list is not an endorsement of a work. What you do with this information is your choice.

The Online Library of Liberty
Find hundreds of writings, books, essays, etc. on classical liberal thought.

Mises Institute
Find dozens of free books, audiobooks, and lectures on libertarian thought from an Austrian school perspective.

The Anarchist Library
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Organizations of Interest
Inclusion on the list is not endorsement. Organizations are listed in no particular order.

The Fire - Foundation for Individual Rights in Education
These people are your friends - they fight for freedom! FIRE is a non-partisan individual rights advocacy group that seeks to defend freedom of speech, legal equality, due process, religious liberty, and sanctity of conscience on American college and university campuses.
Website: http://www.thefire.org/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheFIREorg

American Enterprise Institute
The AEI is a nonpartisan public policy research institute. Everything from American politics to international events and beyond.
Website: https://www.aei.org/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/AEIVideos

Learn Liberty
A project of the Institute for Humane Studies, a libertarian non-profit. Learn about economics, public policy, and more.
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How do we stop internet censorship of social media companies influencing legislation without surrendering to onerous regulation of state censorship, foreign subversion, or giving in to the vulgarities of the mob?

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>Judicial activism is a huge problem but it isn't total and ubiquitous

It really is.

>the SCOTUS wouldn't have ruled in favor of the Christian bakers

But they didn't rule against the Civil Rights Act, and by the time they undid the lower court's decision regarding that bakery, the damage had been done. You can point to isolated victories, and I'm very glad these victories have occurred, but those are strictly tactical victories. What you're suggesting is to expend a strategic weapon to gain tactical victories, which isn't going to work in your favor at all in the long run.

>And, once again, SMACA protects leftist views as well as right-wing ones.

Civil Rights Act was meant to protect whites as well as niggers. PBS and NPR were supposed to be non-partisan entities. But guess what? Only niggers sue for discrimination and both PBS and NPR are communist propaganda. We've danced this dance before, the federal bureaucracy is firmly in control of the left regardless of who holds political office

>Their investors and their monopoly status by the nature of their service.

And who do you think maintains that monopoly? The FCC uses regulatory capture practices to ensure they don't have competition, alphabet soup and various foreign governments pay top dollar for the datamining done by these companies. Facebook and Twitter are not "private entities" any more than Planned Parenthood or PBS are. They are propaganda ministries of the left and should be treated as such. If you had the slightest amount of economic literacy you would have realized this on your own. So, yes. It is. Sorry!

>So what? What even is your point?

My point is that your precious law can and will be used against you, even if you think you've structured the language such that it can't. "Censorship" will be redefined to mean whatever the left wants it to mean, and they'll use it to further stymie right-wing influence online. You'Post too long. Click here to view the full text.


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>confuses immediate profitability of undercutting competition with share value

>Taking over the social media for the Clinton Foundation rather than independent American industrialists

>expanding state media to include webspace to select obama's hand picked successor.



>on /liberty/

>nazcoms get physically removed from private property for advocating hatred of the owners of the commercial services due to their wealth or often false positive racial hatred

>legally not obligated to bake the nazi fag cake due to moral convictions.

Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission

>pressured by shareholders not to babysit shitposting on server racks that could get an expensive Subpoena

>because corporate lawyer billing hours are free, and in no such way affect the competitive pricing that drives more valuable customers away

>demand to socialize costs in a globalized market space where customers, profits, and revenue move towards less autistic legal environments as the unmovable fixed costs shut down the net.

>Free speech




>I will sell you a cake for a strike price of five dollars.

>Psych! It wuz a social experiment, bro!

lolbertarians have been on the leading edge of these laws, as it's a basic premise of market theory.

> PBS and NPR are communist propaganda.

This is true; there's a lot of crafting and gardening shows.



What are you even trying to say here?


Why I'm Against Antitrust Laws


Google CEO Gets a Surprise Visitor! 😆


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Is France going to have a revolution?

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edit: he did not after all



>Taxation will be gone under higher stage Communism

AHAHA. keep going commie. Not real communism strikes once again.



>Not real communism strikes again

No higher stage communist society has been achieved or even attempted by Marxists at this point as there is a differentiation between Lower stage (Socialism) Communism and Higher stage Communism

And yes Taxes would literally be useless in a Communist society


File: 870f81be4bd3a04⋯.png (29.78 KB, 1352x706, 676:353, ussr was communist.png)



Yes the USSR achieved the ten planks set out in the communist manifesto pretty well and can safely be called a socialist and Marxist state

Tough as Marx and Engels explained in their other works this was simply "10 reforms a communist party should seek to implement" and they clearly state that a society that performs the 10 planks isn't necessarily a socialist state and vice versa

So basically yes the USSR was socialist but was not Communist though being ruled by a communist party

Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.


Toughts on this?, as background for this guy, he has a loot of content about WW2 but its not limited to military history, he speaks a loot about economic policies and political history (also has other videos about miscellaneous history topics). also he has jewish blood (not jewish tough).

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What period after that was "Persecution" even happening on a mass scale

even if you believe the lie that Gulags were death camps they were all closed in the mid 50s and after this point the USSR's Prison system was similar to most other western nations


>So you just dumped everything related to communism into trash. Good job, should have done that from the start.

Im not sure what in particular you are referencing

but yes the "Black book of Communism" can be ignored as it considers people killed in wars and "People who could have been born but werent" as "Deaths of Communism"



>"Black book of Communism" can be ignored as it considers people killed in wars and "People who could have been born but werent" as "Deaths of Communism"

So communism can be ignored as it considers people died from illnesses and hunger as "deaths of capitalism". So much for this whole shithole of an ideology.



Marxism Dosent predicate its nessecity upon the fact that people "die because of Capitalism" it predicates its neccesity upon the fact that capitalism much like all other systems that have preceded it WILL collapse at some point and a new system will replace it

Marx simply analysed the historical evidence he had at hand and drew predictions from this

I don't think anyone who is honest with themselves even someone who is a capitalist genuinely believes that the economic system we live in today will exist in a few more hundred years



>the economic system we live in today will exist in a few more hundred years

I believe it will become more capitalistic./agoristic judging by current trends in trade liberalization and crypto.



>Society is gonna become AnCap because of a Pyramid scheme

How about showing me something actually tangible people can buy with CryptoCurrency that isn't a Online scam or illegal?

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When ancap wins and destroy the goverment, thus throwing the land into anarchy, this is how My city is gonna look like! There will be only fascists in there. I will lead parties to raid libertarian and ancom settlements to take their shit and rape their women.

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not an argument


Didn't fascists receive a massive holocaust of war causalities, decades of slavery, totally fdisarmed, and further war reparations? They keep killing themselves.



NatSocs are collectivists. Why would a collectivist go Libertarian?



Why not? I know I did. The other way around is much more improbable, Libertarianism is a one-way road when you start to understand it.



We'll then that goes to prove my point further

Nowhere on earth do we see some great uprising of Voluntarists and Agorists etc deciding to op out of society and go live on some farming Commune

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.


This is what happens when there are no laws protecting rights. Wholesale slaughter and abuse for the bottom line. The modicum of "humane" practice even bothered is entirely due to government regulations and would be absent in the ancap free market. Now imagine a scenario where no laws protect humans. This is what will happen to workers in an ancap society, free of the protection of the state. This is the future of you misled idiots, you are not going to be the elite. The state is absolutely critical for civilization, every case where ancap ideals are simulated ends in disaster.



You argue like a leftist.


Did your state force you to post this?




Into the trash it goes and you with it, worthless pest.


In ancapistan, there is one law to protect humans. It's called The Law (Written by Frederic Bastiat, completed by Murray N. Rothbard), and any other law is in direct violation of this law. The large contemperary religions, all societies that are anywhere short of hell, build fundamentlly on this law. We just want to apply it consistently.


>Muh Morals Muh feel bad for da poor Animals 😭

Stay spooked nerd

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Is handing out cash money to citizens in developing countries really a better idea than building infrastructure through humanitarian organizations?



It's not a good idea and never was.

"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"



To add: of course you can always do both; if the man is starving then you should help him immediately, but if you keep doing that forever without giving him the means to stand for himself, then you're just taking him hostage and creating a spoiled and entitled disfunctional person at the same time. Of course, that may be the exact objective of (((some people)))

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Can we win against apoplithorismosphobia? Will we ever win the intellectual battle against monetary inflation? Will there ever be a country that will return to the gold standard?

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>A centralized gold standard doesn't eliminate the possibility of currency devaluation, it just makes it more difficult.



Wouldn't an institution to hold states accountable for currency manipulation instead of them being able to do it at will that caused the collapse of Bretton Woods still be a good idea?



Wouldn't it make more sense for states to not be in the business of money making, instead of having one centralized, supranational institution that could easily be used to control and/or destroy the entire world?



That would require states giving up their monopoly on the local use of force since as long as they have it they'll force money makers within their borders to comply with government policy.



That institution would just become the currency manipulator. Just look at the UN and all the putrid shit that spills out of it, moving responsibility to an even higher state institution just removes the competition between states, and with it the last vestige of accountability there is.

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hurray new terrorist attack in strasbourg today :D maybe it will wake these cucks up

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when you mention their heroes were jews, especially those WN ones?

I don't get it. they usually end up dodging the question and spam helicopter nonsense at you. they're ones to talk about something "not being an argument" when all they do is dodge the question like an oven.

are they even real?

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Because we don't believe that something being made by jews changes it in any significant way. Especially if it's a priori, only marxists believe that different people have different types of valid logic.



With Marx, I don't know. Maybe it's his hatred for capitalists, which are of course often jews. With the libertarian jews, you're wrong. They're individualists, so when they critisize Israel, general behaviour of jews or jewish tradition, they don't neccesarily mean themselves. And, with some of those cases, like with Block, we know they don't.


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>Block is actually a jew


I've never really seen ancaps care about jews, not sure what you mean.


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Did the growth of welfare programs by the State crowd out the church, and subsequently caused the secularization seen in many places in the West?


Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.

Not just welfare. The state has crowded out the church in almost every function it provides, from a neighborhood community to moral advice, and replaced it with a civic religion.

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Do the robots / incels have a valid perspective on modern society? Are they products of a nanny-state culture? Will rising rates of autism destroy society?

Final question: Why do so many people hate incels? Is this simply blaming the victim?

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>Sexualized society isn't the problem by itself. The problem is how the people who indulge in degenerate sexual behavior get offended if you don't and assume you're defective. They're just as pushy and closed-minded as the Christian fundamentalists they spent so many years trying to get free of.

I think the issue lies with the people that presume that if you're open about not indulging in said acts, that means you're belittling them for participating in them. I've only had a relative handful of people give me shit for not sleeping with basically everyone. It's actually been more common for women to commend me for not just fucking the first open pussy I find.

No matter how much society pushes the "more sex = good" narrative, the actual population seems to not be as concerned about it, barring a vocal minority.



>If incels/MRAs/whatever form of outcasts

I'm probably going to get a lot of flak but I am some what of an MRA in the sense that I do feel like men have issues that are overlooked. Do I feel like they are entitled to sex? No, but they are entitled to things like

* Due Process in rape allegations on college campuses

* Protection from circumcision (mutilation)

* Equal access to their kids in child custody battles (many MRAs are fathers which imply they have sex)

* Recognition of male rape victims etc.


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This is way late but since this still getting bumped, what the hell. The whole incel thing reads like a parody of leftist politics. Observe

"We are the inceletariat who have been oppressed by the Chadgeoisie for too long. They take the product of our niceness (labor) and have total access to the means of reproduction or Stacys. This rampant sexual inequality is the result of capitalism and female hypergamy. What is required is class revolution through sexual marxism to seize the means of reproduction for all incels and sexually disadvantaged. Through this we will create a sexualist society where incels control the means of reproduction. Eventually, we will reach Cummunism where it is stateless, chadless, moneyless, where all men have access to Stacys or sexual robots of their choosing. In the words of Bernie Sandercel, "It is a crime that we are the only advanced nation that does not guarantee sex as a human right. Or that the top 1% of males controls 40% of the pussy. We must, as moral human beings combat sexual inequality in this country"



Equating incels/MRAs/etc. to the left rings hollow when there are numerous laws on the books discriminating against men and creating an environment where it's literally illegal to pursue decent girls for fear of getting slapped with false rape accusations and other nonsense. There are no laws preventing a communist from opening a business and making money. Communists often argue that the laws are written in favor of big business, but this really only feeds into the libertarian/ancap argument that this means the market isn't free. Any similarities between the left and incel arguments ultimately come from the fact that somebody is distorting the marketplace in their favor by using the government. In the case of the left, that somebody is the porkies, while for incels the Chads and Stacies are the ones doing it. But at least the incels generally have enough sense to realize that it's a market issue, while the left has the idea that they can use the government to solve a problem that only exists because of the government.



This is a great post. I had a similar theory before, but couldn't word it well enough. Screencapped for future generations.


>But at least the incels generally have enough sense to realize that it's a market issue

Do they though?

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is korwin-mikke right saying that on greenland there were maaany years ago lemons growing in wild?

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Hi, social democrat here interested in the rational and reasoned debate that you liberals are so famous for.

Anyways, I just want to get a few answers from you guys:

1) I often hear from libertarians and the like that “taxation is theft”. This is repeated often, but it seems to me to be quite a ridiculous assertion. How do you respond to someone who asks you to biblically justify your assertion that taxation is theft when the Lord never decreed it as such? The ancient Israelites, after all, had systems of taxation and not once, to my knowledge, did a prophet ever inveigh against taxation as a moral evil or equivocate it with theft. The only reason tax collectors in the New Testament were designated as sinners was because they were helping an occupying and alien force (the Romans) extort arbitrary amounts from the Jewish people. And it is noted that even then, despite being forced to pay unreasonable amounts coerced via a discriminatory state apparatus imposed by others with no chance at real political representation, that Jesus still instructs the Jews to pay.

2) How do libertarians justify the clear evils present within the existing capitalist framework that the vast majority of the world lives under today? To illustrate this, today my 5 year old phone was on the fritz and I was thinking of getting a new one. Curious, I tried to search for a replacement “fair” phone, i.e. one made respecting the rights of workers, ensuring that they are treated well, sourced with materials not extracted from conflict zones like the Democratic Republic of Congo, environmentally friendly as possible, etc. Unfortunately, I was not able to do so. The farthest I could get was the FairPhone, but a closer examination of just one of the points that I was looking for (worker rights), revealed that despite their rhetoric they were unable to substantially improve working conditions for their Chinese workforce. Even then, the phone makers were charging a premium (I think it was 500 euros). This means that I literally cannot buy a phone without contributing in some way to an active war or abuse of workers or environmental degradation. What is the libertarian response to such market failure?

3) Libertarians and liberalPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

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>I don’t think contemporary governments kill a man for not paying taxes

Theres a clip of walter williams making this point but I can't seem to find it:

What happens when you opt out of paying your taxes? The government will come to seize your property like your home, but you won't put up with that so you'll take up arms to defend whats yours. The government will also escalate force, willing to kill you, to take whats yours.

This is robbery. It is not moral.

The Bible instructs against this in the 10 commandments: Thou shalt not steal

I'm in general agreement about polygamy and slavery. I was only establishing that there's a precedent for moral wrongs still practiced by biblical figures


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>I don’t know why you brought priests into the equation when marriage has become a secular affair with tax benefits that the government oversees.

Well, I would have thought it was a given that you knew that the "libertarian response" would also call for removing government influence from marriage and turn it into a private religious affair once again.

>I disagree with the assertion that the U.S. government is full of leftists

You can disagree if you want, but simple statistics and surveys prove otherwise. Congress and the White House change hands from time to time, but the employees of federal bureaucracies are overwhelmingly leftist.

>There are no “spread gay propaganda” clauses attached to government subsidies.

You are aware that deals can be made under the table, right? If nothing else, aren't you just a little bit curious why all of these big companies started shilling for gays at the same time?

>Quick question: given what we witness today with insurance companies rejoicing at Trump trying to deregulate their obligation to cover those with pre-existing conditions

You realize Obamacare isn't the first, second, or even the third major increase in healthcare regulations, right? Between subsidy of hospitals, mandatory licensure, and a whole host of other restrictions, it's largely been state regulation driving the cost of healthcare upwards:


>Because it's immoral to deny service on the basis of race?

But the Bible doesn't say anything about Jim Crow laws :^).

>What moral justification can you give?

The same moral justification I can give for a restaPost too long. Click here to view the full text.


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>I fail to see why a religious response grounded in the Bible does not qualify as a “reasoned, argumentative response”.

Because it's an appeal to authority and not an argument. You're just pointing to some passage, calling it a day, and turning off your brain.

>I could say that libertarians use “taxation is theft” as a very flimsy rhetorical shield to justify their refusal to pay for any common good that benefits the community.

That equivalency is false, for a number of reasons. First is the simple fact that conservatives, and other advocates of lower taxes, consistently donate to charity far more often and in greater amounts than their leftist counterparts, so any claim that conservatives don't care about "the community" have no basis in reality. Second, to paraphrase Bastiat, being against the state doing something is not at all the same as being against that thing. If these "common goods" were really beneficial to the community, individuals in the community would be willing to pay for them.

>I mean we can quibble for forever over definitions of theft but at the end of the day there’s one section for Tax and another for Theft in the dictionary

Funny you should say that. By doing so I notice you've sidestepped my challenge and failed to contradict my definition. I suspect you do this because you can't contradict it.

>Even Adam Smith

Adam Smith also supported public schools, never understood comparative advantage, and used the Labor Theory of Value. He was just an economist, not some messiah, and I'm under no obligation to blindly follow a policy because he liked it. Maybe that kind of language appeals to you, but I really don't care for appeals to authority.

>despite being a Protestant

Suddenly it all makes sense.

>led me to believe that he is not a genuine Christian

"Gays and atheists go to heaven LMAO" didn't tip you off?

Post too long. Click here to view the full text.



> I could say that libertarians use “taxation is theft” as a very flimsy rhetorical shield to justify their refusal to pay for any common good that benefits the community.

How are libertarians justifying this? The onus is upon you to justify why we must pay taxes.



I'm going to occams razor your religion and moral values away towards objective questions.

How do you suppose that social democracy brings greater social good when by depriving the markets, you are taking away things from producers in the complex economy. How will reducing investment to consumer goods make things better once the goods run out?

If you really want to do something nice for people, give to charity and other friendly things with fellows that share your values. DON'T try to break the system because it isn't following your values. It is too big and too wise for any government to manage, and such a government will abuse such controlling supervision if they had a chance to do greater evil than good.

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