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/liberty/ - Liberty

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Ya'll need Mises.

File: d7efbac9b51010d⋯.jpg (265.5 KB, 800x600, 4:3, kobayashi25.jpg)


I'm really concerned about the future /liberty/. My generation seem to be full on socialists, and I worry about them bankrupting the U.S. and completely destroying the economy or in the best case "only" having several decades of stagnation.

I was thinking this over, and on a personal level, I would like to at least maintain a similar standard of living to what I have now, and it would be nice to completely avoid the nihilistic thoughts that come with imagining the U.S. going socialist. To that end, I personally do not want to "grab SK, go inna woods." Prepping would mean I would have to hold off on my life for a decade, then hold on while economic strife and devastation takes hold in the worst case, or enduring a lost decade of stagnation before coming out and actually seeing any positive future opportunities, and I don't think I could psychologically handle that.

To that end, the best thing I can think of doing is going full on Doug Casey and trying to just be as international as possible, but I do not know the best way to orient myself and my skillset to doing that (I'm a programmer who got his job by applying in rather rural places where there is not a tech industry, that way I do not have a whole lot of competition and can make do with my meager skillset). Moreover, the places where I do have contacts to potentially find employment overseas, know some of the language, and have possibilities for citizenship (Argentina, Benelux (and using Schengen, French/Spanish speaking parts of the EU, assuming that they stay together)) do not have much prospects for the future either, I feel. But then again, they might not go full socialist like it seems like the U.S. is going to go politically.

What are my options here? I was thinking about going back into actuarial work, but trying to get certification in the EU. Maybe with age I'm not as shit a worker as I once was.

9 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.



Well, Russia can be said to be ethnically cleansed ukrainians at least

> China carries out genocide operations on foreigners.

What do you mean?



Have you forgotten Tibet? Or do you just consider it "Chinese" and therefore it's not a matter of foreign policy?



Well, yes, I actually did forget it



Oh. Well don't, it's very sad.

You might also take umbrage with their colonization of Africa, but from what I understand that's less "harass, murder and replace the natives" and more standard colonization stuff. Which, contrary to what some say isn't all about harassing, replacing and murdering people but more about building houses and farms and such.



Literally anything Chinese can do to negroes will be a net benefit to them simply because of their natural state of misery

File: ffe970e432b977d⋯.png (592.82 KB, 640x971, 640:971, 1549419327359.png)


> the united states of america in 2019

What went wrong

11 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.



there is nothing in my post that contradicts austrian economics. You are retarded, unable to properly argue, unable of understanding what you read and of limited IQ.


Utilitarians are mentally ill.

>the hedonistic pleasure of a 70 IQ nigger is just as valuable as the eudaemonia of a 130 IQ entrepreneur



peter singer takes into account level of advancedness of an animal when assessing suffering so maybe other utilitarians take into account level of advancedness when assessing happiness… idk



>Since as of now you can't make everything truly free-market for now (the people will never let you), the US needs to follow the european countries in regulating this market.

The problem with UHC is the lack of a price mechanism which either results in shortages, denials of service, extended waiting times, or excessive costs. The best European models are those with minimal UHC and extensive healthcare market,

>Without net neutrality there is nothing stopping any ISP from censoring 8ch, mises.org or any site considered bad.

Even with net neutrality we had ISPs blocking Pirate Bay. All it is is a state power grab.


File: 1ecf2f7435cb933⋯.jpg (101.08 KB, 720x615, 48:41, crewman-hothead-this-is-fi….jpg)


Even if you take that into account:

>be utilitarian

>take homeless people of the street and harvest their organs

>film the organ-harvesting process for the utility of fetishists

>life of every homeless guy will potentially save the life of up to 6 people (kidneys+lungs+heart+liver), plus utility of cleaner streets and utility of fetishists

File: 4ef052c78c82592⋯.jpg (101.12 KB, 1072x1053, 1072:1053, 82bfb93853cc4dc487c3e36ced….jpg)


Let's say we live in a world where fire extinguishers cost one penny (at our current exchange rate)

Would it be an immoral imposition on the part of the state to require fire extinguishers in rented housing at the threat of a fine?

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So is this like you trying to tell us something



Well he's broadcasting that he's a huge fag. Other than that I think he's just agreeing with everyone else that anything a State does is immoral.



It's called an analogy.


Lol just think of it

>You're paying taxes so a state can stay around to force you to put fire extinguishers in your home

File: 91cc1b93b9f59f4⋯.jpg (25.91 KB, 636x773, 636:773, NPC.jpg)


Dead board but whatever.

I worked on Rand Paul's and Gary Johnson's campaign. AMA.

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>The whole 2016 Election seemed like a squandered opportunity to end the two party system.

That's not something that just goes away, you know. The electoral college and the requirement to win a majority in each state incentivizes people to congregate in two parties, even if people are really unsatisfied with the current party that doesn't remove the two party system, it just replaces the old two parties with two new ones.



Sorry for the late response. I think Agoism is a great path forward. Operating outside the state in ways that you can and rendering it obsolete is probably the most viable way of getting to a stateless society, but as with anything you can't rely on one solution. It's why I still think that political options, like local government takeovers, are still needed as these entities still exist in the present (again, why Young Americans for Liberty are so important). Likewise, collaborating with as many libertarians that you can to bring about this is going to be much more effective than shunning any of them who dont adhere to your brand of libertarianism is going to yield greater results. Too often I see libertarians shunning others because of their one true scotsmanisms instead of embracing the 95% we have in common.

But fuck the leftists in the libertarian party, like Nick Sarawak. Literal chapo traphouse infiltrators. The cuck who stripped at the 2016 convention is a shill too. Theyre all shills.

Be vigilant.



Thanks for answering OP. Your wisdom means a lot.


A lot of what you described about the LP reminds me of what McAffee's VP said during his interview on the Tom Woods show.



so representative democracy in continental europe is better than representative democracy in the usa?



It's more "representative", insofar as there are more major parties. If you consider representative government to be good, then you probably consider it "better." Not many of us here particularly care for representative government, so we wouldn't say that.

File: 4b67a86c96a23eb⋯.jpg (41.86 KB, 600x432, 25:18, Pensione-di-cittadinanza-a….jpg)


Italy is on the exact same road of Venezuela.

The spirit the current government has is the same of the Chavez/Maduro combo.

After all a few years ago, withVenezuela were already in full crisis, a delegation of the M5S, the party that is at the government now, went to visit Venezuela. They declared, and I'm not joking nor paraphrasing "there are some problems in Venezuela but the government made many good things, like the music curriculum in the schools".

Anyway the last proposal is so outrageous I had to open up a thread. Yeah, they did propose to regulate the dance instructors market, so that you need to pass an exam and get a license and into a "dance instructors board" in order to teach zumba class and shit like that (not kidding). But they now did something even worse.

They want to "centralize ecommerce". They think it's unfair that big business have an advantage and therefore all products sold online will need to have the same price. They will need to be registered on the blockchain someway and everything will need to be known about them.

I mean, I know it doesn't make sense both economically and technologically, but that's what they want to do.

Same price faggots.

Same price.

I fucking hate my life. Where the fuck do I move?

2 posts omitted. Click reply to view.



in Italy right-wings are still socialists.

There are not free market parties. There used to be Berlusconi's party, but he cucked out in the 90s, after he got elected the fist time and they became yet another proto-socialist party.

At the moment there are two parties at the government.

M5S, which is a pro-Maduro, populist party. They don't go around saying that they're socialists, but they are. They're program is all about equality, nationalizations, redistributions, etc

Then there is the Lega, which is right-wing since it doesn't want black people. It also wanted the flat tax, but it doesn't come from a place of love for the free market. Better than nothing, but still, a flat tax is completely useless if the next day you propose to have all the ecommerce centralized with all the products with the same price.

Sad reality is that Italians are collectivists and since the few free market oriented influencers we had are dying, we're fucked hard.


File: abbb0d326661952⋯.jpeg (57.91 KB, 720x380, 36:19, 1549499577346.jpeg)


> They want to "centralize ecommerce". They think it's unfair that big business have an advantage and therefore all products sold online will need to have the same price.

I truly don't get what's the point, how it it helping small players.

Thanks for the post tho, now the pic makes sense.



I swear I'm not making a parody or a strawman.

They think that amazon and other big players get to have better prices because of some unfair practices. They can't imagine that there are many ways to organize a business and cut costs. To them, an ecommerce is a thing and it's always the same thing. At most you have different graphics.

I'm worried.

With most leftist policies, when they become reality, I can see that some crony is gonna get a lot of money from them, and therefore they always leave space for some semblance of freedom to remain, in order to not make everything collapse in just 5 days.

It's now that I cannot find who is gonna get those sweet State money that I'm really worrying.

The people in the M5S truly believe this shit. It's a young party born on the idea that corruption is the worst thing ever. And it didn't even have time to get "corrupted". The people who are in it are the original people, those who really believed the ideology. And what's the ideology?

They're just there for the people.

They think they're just applying everything that is "good for everybody", basically what you get in school and progressive media(a leftist education with zero insights about economics). If you read the program is all about free "essential" services and equality and muh jobs. If they see a social thing done by a "superior" country like Sweden, like free bikes or some shit, they're gonna argue in favor of it.

They don't define themselves as leftists because of their origin and ignorance. To them, they're not following an ideology but doing what's obviously the right thing. Isn't this scary?

They're not some fake or not-truly-convinced leftists who are there to work for the cronies. They really believe this stuff and they'll do everything to apply it.


Where indeed. Where does anyone go? We aren't numerous or powerful enough to influence politics, and there's no free land to go sit on and make a new nation (and even that would require a lot of wealth). It seems we are destined to languish eternal.



in poland rightwingers are in 90% of cases socialists

10% is korwin's party and libertarian party and braun's party

File: 99b4b5a4dcdb1fa⋯.jpg (17.54 KB, 220x317, 220:317, Emmanuel_Macron.jpg)


Friendly reminder that the Libertarian Party, YAL, Reason, FEE, and SFL (among others) all publicly endorsed this faggot/had a private effort on social media in pushing him as a "champion of the free market" and a "coming of the age of liberty," for anyone who still believes the retards in the big L libertarian movement deserve a voice/can be trusted to have any opinion in politics. One of the larger fuckups ranking up there with the no compromise attitude that state's rights are inherently just as bad as the federal government because some states want to ban abortion.

ITT remembering mistakes so "we" can rub it in libertine "libertarian's" faces don't repeat them.

12 posts omitted. Click reply to view.



>ancap LARPers

I was unaware people dressed up in their black and yellow memeball costumes and ran around in the woods, throwing McNukes at one another.




why dont you like marcon, op?



Not every youtuber is shit-tier.

Ideias Radicais, a Brazillian youtuber, is pretty excellent and has a growing audience.



Are any of his videos in english?




Propertatian institute

File: a5d6cfbc059bba8⋯.png (31.51 KB, 676x548, 169:137, ancap argument.png)

File: 6376946b3541bff⋯.jpg (77.88 KB, 695x703, 695:703, ancap destroyed.jpg)


Egalitarians cannot defend their positions at all. The only thing they can do is resort to social shaming and appeals to authority, which reveals a lot about how they themselves came to adopt that belief. Even more educated speakers consistently fall back on dishonest rhetorical tactics designed to prevent actual discourse. It's even more hilarious in the case of anarchists who will be enslaved by the very subhuman they love, perhaps this is what they want.

>dude fascism means opressium lmao


Maybe you could start by actually defending your position instead of just co-opting my post from /tv/ with your strawman tacked on.


File: 60526854c68bcb6⋯.png (150.13 KB, 250x381, 250:381, ClipboardImage.png)


>dude egalitarianism sux

>posts low-effort anti-ancap memes


File: a8300def3601dc5⋯.png (119.53 KB, 320x489, 320:489, free market power.png)

why can't the left meme?

File: ca53e427f406eee⋯.png (151.87 KB, 987x456, 329:152, ca53e427f406eeee692d7f0da0….png)


I see the argument that AnCap would devolve into feudalism thrown around quite a lot. Is it true?

32 posts and 8 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.



what anime is this?



>AnCaps are mostly just edgy kids who are completely ignorant of both economics and history.

Got data on that? No? Then stuff it.

>A free market NEEDS a state in order to regulate and protect it.

Weird how property rights and markets predate the nation-state.

>This is why literally every real Liberal+capitalist thinker has always argued that the state serves a vital function, while discarding ancaps as delusional LARPers

Assertions asserted assertively.

>If you want a better idea of how feudalism was formed, and how ancap will simply lead to the exact same thing, read this.

Weird that feudalism collapsed with the wearing away of the law of Entail, which meant that landholders finally were allowed to sell their land. It's almost as though feudalism relied on economic restrictions preventing market forces from operating properly.



>Weird how property rights and markets predate the nation-state.

They dont.

You also completely misunderstood the fact that I was pointing out that without a state to protect yeomen from raiders, feudal systems of protection formed. And that this is simply the natural evolution of how a society will function if you simply erase the state. The whole point of the argument is that ancap will lead to feudalism, and Im saying it will while you nor anyone else has any counter argument



Way to dodge the point about land sales being legally restricted. Lords weren't allowed to sell their land. As soon as they could, they did, and the feudal landholdings broke up. Since a free market in land breaks up feudalism, the idea that it inevitably produces feudalism is ludicrous on its face.



>They dont.

What are polycentric law societies?

File: f09ee4cb295904c⋯.jpeg (258.27 KB, 720x623, 720:623, 1549254320050.jpeg)


Can someone point me to video or a post about Curt Doolittle's ideas on how to organise the state?

2 posts omitted. Click reply to view.







why are ancaps so edgy? They try so hard it's no wonder people think they are 12.



Adults always seem edgy in the eyes of little children.


Before I heard of this guy. The one description I'v heard of Propertarianism being libertarianism but with more of a focus on property rights.



>attacking people isn't cool

>LOL you're such an edgy kid XD

Fukin wut?

File: 59103c5495b37d0⋯.png (396.16 KB, 1080x1024, 135:128, 0adb6763c203a01eb5381ff9a3….png)

File: 89f07b0cf516bdf⋯.jpeg (71.42 KB, 1200x741, 400:247, 0ejdyag1ds401-1.jpeg)

File: 3334947d41c866d⋯.jpg (69.49 KB, 424x550, 212:275, 1a2d02b33076499f9cb831808d….jpg)

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File: 286ba0b1d9bd752⋯.jpg (53.89 KB, 900x450, 2:1, 1fb1ad4d6132c576b000533a76….jpg)


It's like a regular image dump, but random.

272 posts and 389 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.




Your link shows they're fall less common than, say, occurrences in the Catholic church, and your link also shows that they're tried and sentenced, unlike the Catholic ones. The orthodox priesthood is naturally less susceptible to pedos because they allow the priests to marry.


In my experience, the orthodoxy has been far less accepting of homos and other degenerates compared to competition. There might be a "homo lobby," but homo lobbies are everywhere–but unlike the protestants and to some extent the catholics, I don't see that it has taken hold here.


Orthodox Christians are great people, but the priests and the church are just another bureucratic arm of the goverment. You have to be clueless or retarded to notice.


*not to notice


File: 7a2f3e289057170⋯.jpg (18.3 KB, 640x360, 16:9, milonov.jpg)


>Your link shows they're fall less common than, say, occurrences in the Catholic church

Maybe, though it's stated there that many of these cases were secret before trial results. Since the church is basically a governmental institution, i'd expect it get more protection than catholics get in vatican.

>your link also shows that they're tried and sentenced

And my link also shows that they were forgiven and let free just as often.

>The orthodox priesthood is naturally less susceptible to pedos because they allow the priests to marry.

Seems like wishful thinking more than anything else.

>In my experience, the orthodoxy has been far less accepting of homos and other degenerates compared to competition.

Your experience is that of an outsider fag with wishful thinking, and a religious one at that. It's a fucking govt institution and is as much, if not more, prone to hypocrisy than any other. In the link i posted it's literally said that current patriarch's teacher was known as the big homo, while Kirill was very open to dehumanizing gays as a mean of political prosecution and got butthurt only when he couldn't make him holy to rise his own image because it became public.


File: 2e0980670515f17⋯.jpg (295.22 KB, 1280x1941, 1280:1941, 1457054989318.jpg)

File: ab8384639c3abc4⋯.png (195.27 KB, 1021x498, 1021:498, pixelplace.png)



this site got launched yesterday: http://pixelplace.fun/@1046,859 and we are building an ancap base. if you don't join, you're a commie: http://discord.gg/QHv7PmR

File: d0c7a3e493f33ea⋯.jpg (8.45 KB, 218x231, 218:231, 1.11.jpg)


What would be the symptoms of the alleged 'socialist planning problem'?

Without private ownership of the means of production, there would be no price signals to automatically rank the most-and-least productive uses of the factors of production through a bidding process; economic planning would have to be used, whether with a computer or bureaucracy (though even a computer can only calculate, not see into people's minds to learn what they want and need, so it's unclear how this particularly helps).

Anyway, what would be the symptoms of this problem? Is it just 'we made things which didn't satisfy our wants as much as the set of goods capitalism would have made'?

3 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.



>produce thing but cost per unit is way higher than it should be

Do you mean in terms of raw materials, or opportunity cost? Would like to hear more about this. Higher in terms of what cost, and why?



I agree that Mises' successors were not, but I think Mises himself was indeed a utilitarian:



>'Alleged' in the OP

>'Would like to hear more about this.'

Uh huh.

We all know you've got an argument you want to pull out. Just pull it out already.






Even if it wasn't efficient, the individual should be free to decide how to use the resources available and the price system is the only way to guarantee a fair distribution since it's based on all people using the resources they have in the way they want.



Both, really. The key takeaway is that capital and other factors of production are not being allocated in the best possible manner.

File: d62e5c167a9bd82⋯.jpg (938.15 KB, 1600x900, 16:9, railyard.jpg)


Who are you voting for in November, American /liberty/? Or will you be?


Not sure if I should vote against the Democrats in the Congressional race this November because I want to send a message about how much I fucking hate this culture war.

Not sure if I should vote against the Republicans in the Congressional race this November because they can’t repeal Obamacare, let alone do anything meaningful, and are full of boomershit traitors like McCain was.

Not sure if I should just write "fuck you" on the ballots like I have been.

There are no third parties where I live.


7 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.




Alright, that came off snarky. I can appreciate the sentiment to a point, but I don't really by the fact that the federal government gains its legitimacy through the ballot. All governments, democratic or otherwise, rule with the tacit consent of the governed, because once the populus is dissatisfied enough they become ungovernable until the government is removed or replaced. And governments have gone along quite well even when the citizenry had no franchise. With this in mind, let's look at the US as it stands now. Voter participation is only 50 percent of the eligible voters or so, but that doesn't mean that we're halfway towards a revolt, it means half of the electorate has become apathetic and doesn't care who rules over them. And apathy is tacit consent, which is all that's needed for a government to remain in power. Politicians don't exactly panic over reduced participation after all, they just run a few Get Out The Vote campaigns and bribe them to the ballot box.

Unless you mean giving the system power in a more personal way, e.g. you think it's wrong to use the state to do violence on your behalf. In which case I would argue that voting in self defense is perfectly justified. If we think of state power as a weapon to be used against people, I think it's a perfectly reasonable concern to try and control which way that gun is pointing, and do your best to make sure your friends and loved ones aren't among that number.

It's true that no major or prolific minor party supports all of our interests (even the LP is pretty shit), but this is what life's given us, so until there's a feasible way of removing the state let's make lemonade. Yes, obviously democracy doesn't work in the long run, and always goes further left over time, and makes it far harder to achieve what we need. But if Europeans are replaced by economically illiterate brown hordes, then we won't have any chance at all, and I think voting to stop or delay that future is perfectly valid self defense.


I nearly always wait until the last minute to look into candidates, so no fucking clue. I vote my conscience, which almost always leads to voting for whomever the LP candidate is (not that I'm usually a big fan of them anyway) or abstaining. Every now and again I'll vote Repub. or even Dem., if the candidate is good enough and/or the opposition is bad enough.



It's "populace", Cletus. If you are instead referring to the amount of people in an area, the word would instead be "populous".


File: 8565e42da778d59⋯.png (9.06 KB, 385x124, 385:124, Capture.PNG)


Which is why I said "populus" and not "populous", Basil Lee. Admittedly, it's Latin and not Aynglish.



This is pretty much what it comes down to.

Although I also have to say that if the damn libertarians would just buck up and have the balls to start identifying as "republicans" (Which is really the only sensible choice for them at this point) and recognize that the party stands for small government, guns, free speech and American-Liberty-At-Least-In-Principle then those damn neocons would be feeling a FUCK of a lot more pressure to actually get shit done.

Basically, fact is nobody is going to change a party by standing in the middle and saying "I'll vote for whoever panders to me the best" because both parties are going to pander to their base. Your best bet is to pick a side and then "be the change you want to see" IMO.

Can't imagine why a libertarian would EVER pick the left though, since their entire philosophy fundamentally revolves around "big government fixes everything" at the heart.

File: d9bb70b7b91883f⋯.jpg (13.73 KB, 413x259, 59:37, pope-cat-wailing-wall.jpg)


>pope francesco


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Absolute fucking butthurt. How about you prove the claim wrong, it should be easy, just list a few popes that were exemplary.


>forgives five thousand pedo priests and lets them keep serving

>"pedophilia is a right wing conspiracy"

Best thing that could be said about him is that at least he wasn't gay, although you know where that little girl ended up.



>How about you prove the claim wrong



I would stick it in her pooper if she was down, yes.



It's been a week, I'm still waiting.



You'll be waiting forever, faggot, because your claim makes no fucking sense.

File: 9236f69f6da66e3⋯.png (728.25 KB, 917x2017, 917:2017, 1549137264643.png)


You're invited!

To watch football with The 5!


The Superb Owl fuck you google!




Sportschan.org/sp !

>What should i bring?

Bring beer. Snax and loose women will be provided

Hope to see you there, /liberty/!


muh niggerball

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