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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)

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Ya'll need Mises.

File: bf57d71059395f0⋯.png (62.36 KB, 1145x556, 1145:556, ClipboardImage.png)


What happens when the bubble pops? Where do we go? How do we drag humanity into luxury space ancapism?

5 posts omitted. Click reply to view.


Buy crypto.


File: af5048fb3a1314b⋯.png (1.5 MB, 1024x1024, 1:1, ClipboardImage.png)

>cucks think the collapse will be fast

>they don't realize we are already in the collapse

>they don't realize it will be slown like that

>they don't realize they won't even notice when its complete

>they don't realize it won't be like soyalt 76, but like 1984 without non-anglo whites



Money might grow on trees but resources are limited.



The government will simply own everything and manage the entire labor force after inflating all purchasing power away from people. And then the real fun can begin.


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What are the best arguments for and against minarchism vs anarchism?

Meaning, should there be a state that serves an extremely limited function (power to execute murderers, defense of country) or none at all (all social functions predicated on mutual consent)?

I'm having a hard time reconciling ancap with Romans 13's apparent affirmation that some form of government is tasked by God with the responsibility to execute proven criminals, and I must recognize scripture as inerrant.

I know Romans 13 is used as just a blanket proof text for all state action and they're obviously committing eisegesis in those cases (roads, firemen).

Both of these positions are libertarian and have impressive figures on each side.

7 posts and 2 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.


File: 3bf85f489155c96⋯.webm (685.62 KB, 480x360, 4:3, Be Suspicious.webm)


Remember how we deal with them.


>people will never want it and people's desires create society

Why are you assuming liberty has to be achieved everywhere all at once for it to be achieved at all? We're not Marxists, we don't fantasize about RISING UP all over the world to achieve some utopian pipe dream. Liberty is won through secession. Those who want liberty will secede from the state. Those who do not want it, will not.

>it's not like the State can't create any value

It can't, by definition. Value is created through voluntary transactions, because voluntary transactions are by definition mutually beneficial. The state, being borne out of coercion, can never be a product of voluntary transaction, and as a result can never create value, only destroy it.



Romans 13 isn't the render unto caesar passage



Well, that's my take on the Render unto Caesar passage.



things have value because they're valued. The State can create things that have more value than the resources it seized.

The problem is that the thing is pretty random and also coercitive.

That said, I should have been more precise, because I didn't mean in that case that the State can create value, I meant that things that the State creates can have value.

For example a park that can be enjoyed by everyone has value and can be well-manteined. Of course it's created with seized resources, but it's not such as big a tragedy as we make it out to be.

Since people want the State, ancaps should keep study and spread ancap shit, but also help the State allocate coerced resources in a way that benefits society.

We can be autistic all we want, but the truth is that if the State spends money for a park, it's better than if it spends the money for a million-dollar consultancy on child transgenderism.

Yes, we can't know for sure which of the two is better since they'll be payed with stolen resources, but in the real world we know, and we should stop being such little shit always closed in our world that goes nowhere.

This is very important because the fact that libertarians/ancaps don't take part in politics, mean that people who don't give a shit about freedom will get more and more power, and those who give a shit won't take part in politics because there is no prize or support from ancaps/libertarians.

I mean, even Ron Paul was attacked by certain libertarians/ancaps because he wasn't "pure enough". At that point, if that's how people who understand liberty want to act, fuck them and fuck we all, we deserve to suffer.


File: ec714043cb37f9e⋯.jpg (44.23 KB, 750x585, 50:39, sunglasses.jpg)


>I meant that things that the State creates can have value.

>For example a park that can be enjoyed by everyone has value and can be well-manteined. Of course it's created with seized resources, but it's not such as big a tragedy as we make it out to be.

You're forgetting the opportunity cost. Obviously the output of the state will have some sort of value to most people. But it will always be higher in price and smaller in quantity than what the unrestricted market would have done with those resources. That is what is meant when people say that the state destroys value. It is not that the state destroys value because it incompetently allocates resources; yes, it does allocate them incompetently, but that is not how it destroys value. Even if you ignore the Misesian Calculation Problem, and assume the state is somehow capable of allocating resources just as effectively as the market, it still destroys value, because value is created by voluntary transactions. In a voluntary transaction both parties are better off after the transaction than they were before. Even if its output was of the utmost quality, it must still be said that the state destroys value because it destroys voluntary transactions, not just through coercion, but by the opportunity cost of the voluntary transactions that would have taken place had the state not intervened.

You are correct in that the state's outputs are not completely worthless, and some forms of output are obviously less worthless than others, particularly if they move in the direction of undoing previous coercion. But I believe you're underestimating just how damaging state intervention truly is.

>but in the real world we know, and we should stop being such little shit always closed in our world that goes nowhere.

Does anyone actually do this? The very fact that we're discussing our frustrations on a Canadian cave painting website instead of quietly fuming is already in itself a political interaction. Places like the Mises Institute do a fair bit to get more people interested in liberty, and issue-oriented lobby groups like the GOA or thPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.


How can people be such slaves to work 9 hours per day for 40 years? Just count the amount of hours you are losing for slavery.

I don't even think of wagecucks as of humans, you are robots, slaves, ants, without brain or consciousness.

Not a single free men would allow something like this, he would prefer to make a revolution and kill those who enslave him, or even die during revolution, than to be such slave like wagecucks are.

There is so much wealth and factories in the world, that we all could work two days per week and still have houses, food, fun. But for now that wealth is in hands of your owners, lords. We have feudalism.

4 posts omitted. Click reply to view.



How is working slavery? Just leave if you don't like it.


Yeah no shit, if animals don't 'wagecuck' for their food, they die too. This is reality.







Listen to this advice please.



that's because the market is less free than has ever be in the last 150 years.

Not only we're full of regulation and taxes, but the State now is efficient enough in applying them while in the past you could easily escape most of the State's bullshit and taxes, as long as you didn't con everybody, the State would let you whatever you wanted.

I agree we're in neofeudalism. We've a class of billionaries, often in cahoot with the State, that lives above the rules or writes them. Very bad.

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Considering the number of replies to >>100308 , even when it's buried deep in another thread, I feel like it deserves to be its own post. Are libertarians just getting burnt out from arguing with everyone since the dawn of the internet? How many of you would describe yourselves as having turned into lurkers? What would you suggest to do?

25 posts and 3 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.



This is the most elitist thing I've ever read.



Well the last thing we'd want to do is offend the subhumans.


File: 9e11ce8bf690e10⋯.png (405.24 KB, 1800x758, 900:379, FPS.png)

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Completely agree and let me kickstart the "goals" part.

The most realistic thing we can do to achieve any kind of liberterian life is "Free Private Cities" first project that is about to be completed some time soon.

If you wonder what it is here:


A short introduction from a previous PFS video:


I closely followed this because I wanted to be ready to hop to this new free city when it is opened up.

So my simple premise is this:

Our (any liberterean/hoppean etc) only realistic and close enough goal would be to apply and relocate to this city and after that working in cohesion to spread this model around the world a bit more. So that there would be enough "habitats" for like-minded people to relocate.

But first seeing this project succeed. Though I am not sure at this stage there is any additional support that can be given to person/people doing this except shilling for it through media platforms, but you can always ask them if there is anything you can contribute just ask them on their facebook via message:


So here is my two cents. Go ahead contribute if you wish.


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>not knowing ADF

Infamous leftist lolcow who got a visit by the Secret Service for drawing a picture of Sasuke from Naruto headshotting John McCain.



Did he become a tranny?

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Hey all,

I have become disillusioned, to the point of either expatriating or pushing for accelerationism (if it was not for the NWO). To start off, the Amash vs RINO confrontations are just retarded. Republicans when they lost would at least pay lip service to being conservatives. Then Trump is being a gun control piece of shit, on top of his other shit, thus giving up on Trump being anything other than a Peronist (hell George Bush was more of a conservative at this point). Then people have the gall to say it is libertarians fault because MU Koch Brothers! Even with their money they have not been that successful. But people go on that libertarians are the problem, although most the "libertarians" are conservatives that have a fetish for big government. Further I get tired of people trying to change this country, this land was made for liberty, and I am tired of everyone trying to homogenize the US to be like everywhere else. Fuck them.

And if I sound like I am just bitching , I am not. I have run for office, held appointed positions, and tried to get others elected, just to get shit on by anti-human and anti-evolutionary apes. I am quite tired of it. Further, people complain that housing and other essentials are going up in price, but see no fucking correlation with QE or that prior to 1970 prices were relatively stable, but them everything went to shit after that, HMMMMM???? (Granted the catch up of the Axis powers did not help, but neither did buying goods without producing anything). Yet you suggest, maybe, just maybe conservatives could have prevented this by pushing harder for the gold standard, but that is like number 99 on their list of things to do. Fucktards.

I am sorry if I sound disgruntled, but on top of my things that I considered "my hobbies" being destroyed by people I hate, but on top of that I expected Republicans to deliver on one thing they were ok on, and they fucked that up. At this point if it all goes to shit both sides deserve it. Boomers bitch about this communist generation, but if they would have insisted on a gold standard, maybe there would not be the income inequality that there is, but they stick their head up their ass like there is no such thing.

4 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.



Coincidence, great comrade! Brazil is remarkably close to the american hemisphere! It is a mystery!



That cartoon in the OP is retarded as fuck because Libertarians have been very vocally opposed to the NSA spying on US citizens since the beginning of it. What completely unaware retard made this?



Probably some cuckservative that thinks libertarians are just corporate cocksuckers as opposed to government cocksuckers



Possibly they were using the flag without meaning to attack libertarians specifically.



I guess they were using it to attack the tea party movement?

File: c78084bd3e2157d⋯.jpg (247.82 KB, 1682x1074, 841:537, nazism.jpg)


Semi-/liberty/ related:

Can anyone post that "meme" (for lack of a better word) where it makes fun of how Neo-Nazis tried to argue that Hitler "tried" to make "peace" with Britain, despite the Third Reich repeatedly betraying promises and diplomatic agreements, and the last panel of the comic has Hitler reeee-ing about "HURR DURR CHURCHILL LET COMMUNISM RISE IN EUROPE REEEEEEE"?

I need it so I can post it to "BTFO" nazi-fags.

14 posts and 3 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.



Thank you.



>March 1938: Hitler has Nazi party sympathizers and agents stir up shit in Austria which eventually leads to a coup and then annexation by Germany, a very hostile action. Once again, Britain and France let this slide and do nothing (Mussolini was actually the one who was most angry about this and wanted to act against Hitler for his aggression and threatening Italy through this action)

That was in July 1934, when the Nazis attempted a coup d'etat and murdered Dollfuss in cold blood before getting supressed. A number of Nazis fled into Yugoslavia, which had an anti-Austrian foreign policy at the time and allowed them to safely leave for Germany. Hitler would later repay this favor by annihilating the Yugoslav state. Italy still saw Austria as part of its sphere of influence and mobilized divisions in the Brenner Pass, blocking off any possibility of a German military intervention.

Even before this event, Austrian Nazis were already on a relentless campaign of terrorism and subversion, setting up bombs against public officials and sabotaging rail and telephone lines.

By 1938 Italy had given up on Austria, as after its invasion of Abyssinia it was diplomatically distant from France and Britain. Mussolini, another man of honor, simply backstabbed the Austrian state. Austrian Nazis didn't launch an armed uprising. What kicked off the Anschluss was Hitler "convincing" Schuschnigg to relax his supression of Austrian Nazism.


Fucking kill yourself and then go back to reddit you cringelord



Geopolitical illiteracy


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was his transformation as good as kelthuzzar says?


how should have transformation looked like?



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Slavery can be justified because we are not obliged to recognize the natural rights of those whom we do not expect or demand reciprocal right-recognition from. The state is illegitimate not because it uses violence but because its justifications for the use of violence do not hold up to logical scrutiny.

This is why it is acceptable to own (or enslave, per se) animals like cows and negroes. And why it should be admitted as justified to enslave those who aggress upon you, as the moment they have broken the ethical contract of non-aggression, they are likewise not protected by it.

Societies shall therefore be formed of groups of people who reciprocate the sentiment of non-aggression within the social group. Such social contract is akin to an alliance between macrocosmic states, wherein if one is attacked all alliance members attack the aggressor. If one member begins aggression upon others in the group, and is unable to be resisted, the group can no longer be said to be a society, but instead a pack of slaves owned by one slave-master. As stated, such organization is only 'illegitimate', logically illegitimate, if the slave-master does not recognize his status as an enslaver of men and likely oathbreaker. These titles are objective, of course, and are the metaphysical price of domination. If the enslaver fails to recognize his true nature, his life becomes the domain of lies, and thus he may pay even greater in a solipsistic denial of reality itself.


i dont recognize natural rights yet i consider myself an ancap

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Why is the wikipedia page for austrian economics such a shitshow. It literally says that Austrian economists dont use math wtf.

I propose we fix it.

4 posts omitted. Click reply to view.


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Wikipedia has an obvious Keynesian bias. Being said, I propose we expel all of the communists and homosexuals.


File: 175f48dc93a195b⋯.jpg (47.87 KB, 553x563, 553:563, tfw new pr.jpg)


>Wikipedia has an extremely long set of rules and style manual, which was analyzed to be more complicated than the IRS tax code.

I remember when they only had "source?" and "neutral POV!", and that was it. Good times. Only problem was that the question of what's noteworthy enough to be included was even more arbitrary back then.



is this thing about more complicated than IRS tax code an hyperbole or truth? The fact that I can't tell does tell a lot about wikipedia's reputation anyway.



I can't give you a link, but it's not hyperbole. A few years back someone analyzed the two sets of regulations, and found that Wikipedia's rules were a hair more complex than the tax code.


Because Trump won the 2016 election and a big reason for his victory was the sort of "underground" support he had online as opposed to the traditional mainstream media of the bigger news channels or late night talk shows or celebrities or hollywood ect. So those in power who hated Trump and everything he stands for abused their power and started taking more control over the internet under whatever bullshit pretext. This means banning twitter accounts, taking people off of different services, taking down websites, deleting youtube videos and re editing wikipedia pages and then locking them.

The internet is still the wild west and the one thing no one can really control now, so its a thorn in the side of any group that wants total control and now they are trying to take it

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I am NatSoc, I despise Capitalism and Communism both as Materialist philosophies at best and Jewish-in-spirit at worst. Communists push for Revolutionary action it's not a good kind of Revolution, whereas Capitalists are too reactionary and worried about maintaining the Status Quo or enough of the Status Quo to allow them to stay wealthy without getting their hands dirty.

Recently I've gotten interested in Anarchist ideas and how to combine NatSoc ideas of Race, Nature, Hierarchy etc. With Anarchist ideas of Decentralization, Community as opposed to Government, and Freedom.

The more I got to thinking about it, the more I realized that if we abolish the State a lot of the the things Racialists are mad about would be nullified. The Feds completely re-wrote the meaning of Liberty and Citizenship by force in the Civil War, and a lot of what we hate stems from that ex. Forced integration and "Civil Rights". Jews and Race Traitors would not be able to subvert our Country if there was no massive power structure there to pacify us, we could storm the offices of Anti-White media bosses, Bankers, etc. and give them the correct punishment for treason without ZOG enforcers throwing us in prison, etc.

This is not to say I'm whining about them violating "Muh NAP" or whatever, I believe Might is Right and the only Freedoms and Rights we have are those we take/keep by force. There is no natural human right to anything, if someone is strong enough to take something from you and you can't stop it there is no God of Human Rights who will magically correct it for you.

I've read all different kinds of solutions from a National Socialist/Authoritarian perspective, my question for you all is what is your proposed solutions to demolishing State power and restoring Aryan freedoms?

15 posts and 4 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.



Your definition of capitalism is also deficient.

Of course capitalism is unattractive if it's in those terms.

Capitalism is rightly defined as free market economics: individuals have the liberty to do whatever transactions they want with whomever they want free from molestation by the state.

If capitalism is just "hurt the little guy" and communism is "kill the whites" you're really artificially narrowing the available choices to fit a preconceived mold.



Capitalism is when the means of production are owned by individuals. This leads to them being used for profit, which leads to what OP is complaining about; the welfare of workers comes second.

Only when people own and use the means of production directly will the welfare of mankind cease to be in last place.



If you believe in hbd theory the original tribes of the Franks are not the same genetically as modern Franks; this might explain the change in their culture. The Catholic Church and the manorial farming system combined destroyed the tribal system and created the nuclear family. When you're not a in a tribal system different traits are selected for.

The reproductively successful class were honest, had reciprocal morality, and individual initiative, as opposed to clannish peoples who were tribally loyal but on the whole dishonest and potentially brutal to outsiders. This is what you find in corrupt parts of the world outside of Europe.



>Capitalism is when the means of production are owned by individuals

Not completely:


It also requires a market economy, something primarily lacking state interference. Get rid of this interference (taxes, licensing, zoning, subsidies/quotas) then the worker would be able to save enough for capital goods.


File: 45416adad635b2a⋯.jpg (7.92 KB, 250x238, 125:119, 762F651C951A4579BAF44B2F53….jpg)


>Capitalism is when the means of production are owned by individuals

>Only when people own and use the means of production directly

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And what would it be? How would it play out?

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sound money. if someone was hoarding it to drive up the value it would drive investment into other assets



Why would it? Down payments already exist. If you're in a position where you can't afford to put any money down, you probably shouldn't be taking out a loan.



That's actually a pretty solid compromise imo. Growth will certainly be hindered, but it provides economic security in the long term.

It would make it much harder to implement Keynesian policies since there would be much less panic and stability.



Usury is still effectively selling us into slavery though… Just in a more widespread and tactful way.



Of al the beautiful things people could take from Aristotle, they decide to go with usury: https://acton.org/pub/religion-liberty/volume-4-number-4/economics-catholic-world

This nigga >>102362 has figured it out. People take interest for a reason, and if interest is higher than you'd like (there is no objective standard for it being too high), then there is a reason for it. What we have nowadays is interest rates being too low across the board and lawyers and companies trying to compensate by demanding five euro for every letter they have to send you, and another hundred euro for "legal counsel" (they don't seek legal counsel, no collection firm wastes time with that before it collects). They do that precisely because interest rates are set too low for the time-preference people have. We're living in rather insecure times, and people cannot wait ten months before they are paid for their work. The interest-rate on debt is supposed to express that.

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Libercucks, once the goverment stops protecting you, how will survive? There will be no police to enforce laws that protect you from niggers, commies, fascists, etc

>inb4 i will teleport behind them and shoot them in a milion pieces with my mcnuke


>statecuck resorting to doubleposts

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NatSoc here, what is /liberty/ proposed solution for bringing down the State? At this point I'm willing to accept some kind of Anarchism if it means getting rid of ZOG and Whites get their freedom of association back.

1 post omitted. Click reply to view.



I was kinda hoping you faggots had some ideas. Another solution is to wait for the state to eventually collapse under its own weight (dollar collapse or something) or for it to piss off society until it reaches a boiling point and revolution is inevitable, at that point we can achieve our goals in ways nobody else was prepared to, however, this requires us to actually have concrete goals and to have a sizeable amount of the population prepared to shill for them when it happens and not be caught off-guard.



You missed a rather important part of WMBD, where Hoppe advocates for secession from the state and its coercions. In fact, he specifically states that reforming democracies is basically impossible, due to the sheer weight of malicious bureaucrats standing in the way. Revolution, especially people's revolutions, never bring anything good with them, and only invites some tyrannical commie faggot to take over. But secession is not revolution, secession is a refusal to be coerced, backed with a willingness to defend oneself against it. The greater the number of people within a locale secede, the greater chance it has if succeeding. An example of a successful secession that was *not* some people's revolt is the American Revolution, which was a top-down rejection of coercion.

Adam Kokesh is a cuck in love with open borders, and will do far more harm than good to my freedom of association if he's elected. I don't want him or anyone else associated with the LP anywhere near political power.



Adam Kokesh will open the boarder to hundreds of thousands of mutts, which will all vote democrat. His strategy is to basically prolapse america's collective anus then wait for the amigos to chomp down on the poo-ey prolapse hotdog.


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In another words: the cumskin race is doomed.



I'll admit it's been a while since I read wmbd, and I haven't looked into much of Kokesh's policies other than abolishing the federal government.

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At this point it's more important to address /leftypol/ anti-capitalism fud and spam on 4chan on boards like /biz/ and others than it is to post on this dead ass website at all tbh. We never would have gotten to this point if it weren't for the subversion of the libertine values of the original /pol/ from the inside, whoever let those shill mods run amok with selective censorship for months on end should have their kneecaps broke.


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bump against gay porn spam


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>hurrr tax is theft

living in a country with taxes is completely voluntary. all you have to do is make your own country just like making a new business in the free market.

21 posts and 3 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.



>stealing is only wrong because bureaucrats wrote so in a piece of paper



>he is not 'in the right'.

>Being 'strong' does not entitle one to goods

*bashes your head in*

*takes your shit*

Looks like im right, nerd.


And because the police enforces it.






Notice that in your childish scenario you still had to actually take the goods from me. If you were entitled to them I would need to offer them to you as tribute or something.

That is to say, your statements are completely irrelevant to the thread's subject of the ethics of taxation. No one here is arguing that it is functionally impossible for large organizations to rob citizens.



Free market where? I don't see such a thing anywhere. It's like a unicorn.

"Living in a country with taxes is completely voluntary" sure, if by voluntary you mean you have the option to suicide anytime you like.

Just accept the fact that the world is fully owned by oligarchs and the only agency you have in this life is to destroy as much of their system as you can before you escape this hellscape by dying.

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