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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)

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Ya'll need Mises.

File: a90ff2fce17f2ac⋯.gif (20.18 KB, 644x652, 161:163, mathchart.gif)

 No.100928[Reply]

I used to be a socialist when I was in my teenage years. Anyone else here have a similar past? For me, it probably started because–I shit you not–of SimCity. It was kind of cool, I mean, there's certainly much more of a social scene in socialist groups than with libertarians, and at least when I was in uni I found it a lot easier being a socialist than any other kind of ideology.

The first crack had to be how poisonous socialists really can be with each other. I mean, I understand libertarians have their own version of this, but at least I haven't seen the majority of libertarians go completely vindicative spreading every false rumor under the Sun to your entire social circle. Or how violently angered they get with you over disagreements. I mean, libertarians do the same, but at least with libertarian friends I've been able to talk to them the next day.

More importantly, there were just this pervasive, fundamental issues underlying socialism, and it had to do with this underlying and pervasive atmosphere of hubris combined with moral righteousness. "Oh, you poor African country, I know what your problem is. Here, let me fix it for you." At first, it felt good to give these sort of arguments that made me feel so much more intelligent than everyone else, or even to give to charities with this kind of thinking. But after pragmatically looking at the consistently terrible results, it's just very difficult to maintain that kind of cognitive dissonance.

That wasn't really what dealt the killer blow. It's weird, because I really liked building and engineering systems, which was why I like(d) SimCity so much, and I applied the same thinking to naturally come to a socialist position. But when I started thinking from the perspective of just how amazing self-organizing systems are (especially since they require practically NO engineering), and the natural consequence of what sort of things happen when you let others find their own way, then that was when my support for socialism finally began to dissolve and I could see all the other faults that had been building up in my thoughts over my youth.

11 posts and 4 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.101052

>>101051

Well, for an analytical philosopher, there were no arguments in any of this. For a human, who can think for himself and come to logical conclusions even when arguments are only implied and not presented in a syllogistic form, statements like "envious assholes become communists" and "misanthropes like socialism" should at least give pause for thought. When people who fix their lifes stop demanding gibs, even when they are more compassionate and charitable afterwards, then that strongly hints that communism is adopted out of base motives. And while it is entirely possible that a bunch of entitled shitheads nevertheless hit the nail on the head, that their intellectual reasons are good even if their psychological motives are base, that isn't usually what happens.

If that isn't good enough for you, if you want arguments against communism and not against communists, there are enough threads to indulge yourself with, enough books we recommend, and enough infographs and pics. Lately, I have made more screenshots of good responses to such topics as UBI. If you want intellectual discourse, just go ahead, open a topic asking us for the five best arguments against central economic planning, or against the Marxist ideology.

Of course, you can also convince us that communists are better persons than we give them credit for. I probably won't believe you, but I like to think myself as a fairly rational guy, and I do change my mind occasionally, when I am presented with convincing evidence.


 No.101059

>>100930

>capitalism

>one person plans everything

Oh no, it's retarded


 No.101067

>>101059

You're right. Capitalism is when literally anyone can walk off the street and run the company, while socialism is when the owner tells the workers what their job is.

>Oh no, it's retarded


 No.101272

Communism doesn't work because people are self-serving shitheads. Even if everything is perfect, we seek an advantage over our fellow man. Everything is great, lets throw someone out over pointless drama! When everyone is collaborating and sharing, some psycho NEEDS to fuck everyone over and take it all for themselves. They might just destroy everything of value in the process, in that case, they just enjoy the power.

I've been in communes and seen this happen in person. These days, I've been putting trust in things I know are working. I believe in small incremental improvements and distrust people who make fantastic claims.


 No.101273

>>101067

>Capitalism is when literally anyone can walk off the street and run the company

Is there only one company in the entire world?

This collectivist tripe, assuming "the capitalist class" has a set of uniform interests and so does "the working class", is completely ignorant of game theory and psychology. The capitalists' greatest enemy is other capitalists.




File: 06c5971ad07e56f⋯.jpg (103.36 KB, 1920x1080, 16:9, Travelers.2016.S02E02.Prot….jpg)

 No.95855[Reply]

Seriously, who the fuck cares about the liberty of those who don't want it?

In the end a decently informed libertarian knows more about socialism than socialists themselves, but unlike socialists he also knows about capitalism too. This means that you, as a libertarian, can easily become a big defender and promoter of socialism.

Then with all those books/speaking/tv royalties/politics money, you can buy whatever you want, maybe even some land somewhere where you can build a libertarian utopia, if you still believe in it. But why buying land? You could just use your influence in the State to wage war and conquer lands for yourself. Or buy some cocaine and some prostitutes, who cares? Just enjoy the fruit of those cucks who want you to rule over them.

Honestly, it's a complete waste of time trying to let people know about the advantages and the morality of liberty. These people refuse liberty for themselves and others. Marx and associates gave us an exceptional tool to pilot the masses to work for our personal interests. Voluntary slavery. Think about it: if you were to cause suffering among the people with your socialist policies, it would be their choice. You would basically make socialist suffer while you run all the way to the (swiss) bank with their money. It's them who decided to vote for you, after you promised to put their neighboors down in order to make them all equal. They wanted evil, you just capitalized on it.

Of course there will be some innocent victims, but who really cares? It's nothing compared to the enormous amount of statists that will suffer. You will make them poor slowly, day after day. A taste of their own medicine.

I don't know about you, but I'm gonna join the local social-democratic party today.

14 posts and 3 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.101217

>>95917

I don't. Only humans should have freedom, normalfags can't even make use of it.


 No.101225

>>101217

I agree with this sentiment. That's exactly why I advocate for infinite freedom. Normalfags will always find chains to bind them. The problem is when they find chains to bind you, too.


 No.101250

>>101217

> normalfags can't even make use of it.

because they are not pedos like you?


 No.101268

>>101250

wow you proved him right


 No.101269

>>101225

problem is that right now there is no way to get to infinite freedom. The sanest course of action is to understand how the State works and try to pilot it to get closer to freedom.




HookTube embed. Click on thumbnail to play.

 No.101239[Reply]

HEY GUISE, I JUST FOUND OUT ABOUT COCKSHOTT TODAY, AND I JUST WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE ALL BTFO LMAO. HIS THEORIES SCREWED YOU GUISE UP SOOOOO MUCH! I AM READING MARX NOW AND CAN NOT BELIEVE THE LABOR THEORY OF VALUE WAS EVER THROWN AWAY. CALCULATION PROBLEM? LOL WHAT CALCULATION PROBLEM, LIKE JUST USE A COMPUTER LOOOOOOOOOOOL. SUBJECTIVE VALUE? HAVE YOU GUYS TRIED BEING MORE RATIONAL AND USING THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD MAYBE? IT WAS INVENTED A FEW CENTURIES AGO, JUST LOOK AT A GRAPH OF STAGNATING WAGES. ALSO, VENEZUELA FAILED BECAUSE OF CAPITALISM. GOD YOU ARE ALL SO RETARDED.

It's been a week and I haven't seen a new ultra-commie thread, so I figure I'd post one for our commie friends, I'm sure they've just been too busy lately :^).

 No.101249

File: 9c62f3e01c62d72⋯.jpg (7.32 KB, 280x136, 35:17, korwin łapie się za głowę.jpg)

>>101239

> LOL WHAT CALCULATION PROBLEM, LIKE JUST USE A COMPUTER LOOOOOOOOOOOL


 No.101251

When you run out of arguments you just imagine socialism with robots


 No.101253

>>101239

>It's been a week and I haven't seen a new ultra-commie thread

That's a good thing, you dumb nigger.


 No.101255

>>101251

Even that would fail.




File: 4918a1bbb072aba⋯.jpg (16.61 KB, 300x300, 1:1, h6UI6Iq1_400x400.jpg)

 No.101152[Reply]

10 posts and 4 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.101211

>>101210

Quick correction of a statement

>I don't know why it's another one of this hills

>I don't know why it's another one of these hills


 No.101212

>>101210

>you're still going to kill thousands of people due to their inability to get critically required medicine,

Is this even true? Why would any nation rely on one manufacturer let alone one facility to provide medicine, when they could simply decentralize it and/or provide an environment suitable for multiple producers? Why could they not import or receive aid?


 No.101213

File: c2bbba082da6e6f⋯.jpg (123.24 KB, 1064x600, 133:75, indestructible.jpg)

>>101212

>Is this even true?

Yes, this one facility was actually responsible for a hefty portion of the nation's medicine (with most estimates going as far as 50%) and along with that they produced very specific medications that the country was in dire need of, as mentioned earlier (TB drugs, Malaria tablets, etc).

>Why would any nation rely on one manufacturer let alone one facility to provide medicine, when they could simply decentralize it and/or provide an environment suitable for multiple producers?

Good question! The answer is incompetence, third world shitholes tend to be third world shitholes for a reason. When you have a barely functional economy due to government activity, you don't really have much leeway in regards to the resources you can spare towards any given goal. Sudan never exactly had much of a free market as one can imagine, so of course the amount of pharmaceutical manufacturers of the sort is limited. There were about 2 other facilities in the entire country that could compare, and even then "compare" is being very, very generous.

>Why could they not import or receive aid?

The government of Sudan would unfortunately not allow any aid to the country despite the dire need for it, this was due to a state of civil war, this in conjunction with a fairly shitty agricultural season made for a famine that's estimated to have killed 2.8 million people. The average individual who needed that facility couldn't even bother with the idea of importing from other countries on their own accord due to the cost (something of which they could not satisfy, certainly not when compared with the cheap nature of the facility that once existed).

>pic not related.


 No.101233

>>101213

>>101212

No>>101210

tl;dr

youre entire argument hinges on simply playing stupid and desperately trying to claim there is a moral equivalency to a terrorist attack which intentionally murdered ~3,000 civilians and a targeted strike on a building that killed one guy

>>101212

>Is this even true?

No. I posted a link to an article that was written specifically about this comment by Chomsky which blows it the fuck out which he just conveniently ignored.

https://wayback.archive-it.org/all/20070808152625/https://www.zmag.org/casey2.htm

Chomsky is a bullshit artist who makes his living on telling retarded zoomers what they want to hear by fueling their conspiracy theories about the evil united states.


 No.101252

>>101152

they even mention rothbard in that pdf




File: d82a296f061d344⋯.png (3.92 MB, 3384x3992, 423:499, liberty reading guide impr….png)

 No.92213[Reply]

I wanted to make a right-wing reading list initially, but turns out I cannot, in good conscience, make one while omitting the libertarian aspect of it, which I believe is genuinely right-wing, whereas shit like national socialism and distributism are leftism in disguise.

So I took our old reading list and amended it. I also cut a few entries, like Molyneux (he is pretty low-tier), the New Libertarian Manifesto (everything from it is pretty much included in the Agorist Primer), and Nozick (he just isn't that good and hardly relevant anymore).

Hope this is of help for someone!

88 posts and 26 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.101112

>>94333

"The Open Society and Its Enemies" is a good start for Karl Popper's brand of liberalism, and "The Poverty of Historicism" is the definitive takedown of the marxist and fascist theories of historical determinism.


 No.101120

>>101112

Was not Soros a student of Popper and implementor of his open society idea?


 No.101123

File: f61996962e48a3a⋯.jpg (1.53 MB, 2250x2908, 1125:1454, Untitled.jpg)


 No.101242


 No.101247

>>101242

meh

im already in favour of legalisation of all drugs




File: c0b70daf4c9e853⋯.jpg (43.27 KB, 640x427, 640:427, socialistmillenia.jpg)

 No.98545[Reply]

Why has capitalism lost the ideological battle AGAINAND AGAINoh and also that other timerepeatedlythroughout historywe never seem to learn? The younger generation is now majority commie ( https://archive.is/W2jEr ). I mean, dear lord, I'm not even sure this board has a majority of capitalist posters anymore. What the fuck happened? Why can't capitalism defend itself ideologically? And how the fuck do I prepare for the breadlines under the neo-bolshevik uprising? Something more useful than "Grab SK, go inna woods" or "go workout/be stoic" pls.

80 posts and 14 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.101124

>>98545

spoliers = garbage


 No.101125

Why do slaves hate pedos? It's because they hate whites and don't want them to be happy/reproduce?


 No.101143

We haven't lost the ideological battle. What we have lost is the political will to pursue policy and allow demagogues the freedom of speech to cry out histrionic lies above truth.

Whenever we have been allowed to function through the militarization of the capitalist right to Physically Remove democrats and communists, our economic and political theories have done the greatest amount of good for everyone as fairly as possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTP9DevI3mQ


 No.101188

>>101125

because they are brainwashed by gynocracy perhaps


 No.101226

>>101048

>I highly doubt that lemonade stands cannot outcompete Walmart only because they are fined into oblivion, anon. As much as an ancap as I am, I don't think that "has a lemonade stand" would be enough to bring Walmart down if only the mean police force didn't protect it from them.

you dont have to "bring walmart down" in order to exist.. contrary to popular belief the free market is not a zero sum game and for example if you go to mexico there are thousands of bodegas adjacent to big box corporate stores




File: 5361aa65f5e87a1⋯.jpg (424.93 KB, 1550x864, 775:432, yang2020.jpg)

 No.99844[Reply]

Have any of you read some of the policy proposals coming from the Democratic candidates for 2020? I mean, Sanders is already known to be a socialist, but Yang, holy fucking shit. This stuff reads like dystopian nightmare fuel, and I'm not even touching the UBI stuff. I really encourage you guys to read this stuff, it's fucking insane. I mean, I'm an autistic weeb lolbertarian, and I think this guy has out-autismed ME for fucks sake.

https://www.yang2020.com/policies/human-capitalism/

>In order to spur development, the government should issue a new currency – the Digital Social Credit – which can be converted into dollars and used to reward people and organizations who drive significant social value. This new currency would allow people to measure the amount of good that they have done through various programs and actions.

>Imagine an AI life coach with the voice of Oprah or Tom Hanks trying to help parents stay together or raise kids. Or a new Legion of Builders and Destroyers that install millions of solar panels across the country, upgrade our infrastructure and remove derelict buildings while also employing tens of thousands of workers. Or a digital personalized education subscription that is constantly giving you new material and grouping you with a few other people who are studying the same thing. Or a wearable device that monitors your vital signs and sends data to your doctor while recommending occasional behavior changes. Or voting securely in your local elections via your smartphone without any worry of fraud.

https://www.yang2020.com/policies/free-marriage-counseling/

I have no comment on this.

https://www.yang2020.com/policies/modern-time-banking/

>As President, I will…

> Create a new time banking app to track points awarded and traded for helping your community and neighbors

> Donate aPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

23 posts and 10 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.101168

>>101142

>How does any of these neuanced policies help us other than putting more power in the hands of the state?

>You've already established a new state sales tax on Amazon stuff that increases costs of goods. All new taxes go on the shoulder of consumers.

I think OP is making fun of Yang's policies, not supporting them.


 No.101176

Where programs from the past this insane or is it a new and scary tendency?


 No.101214

>>101176

I don't know. I mean, there are plenty of insane things in history, though. Like that time Caligula went to war with Poseidon.


 No.101215

>>101176

Some socialist shit in the 20th century got pretty bad, but this insane level of government intervention is a comparatively new idea historically. The state didn't even exist as we know it until the 1600s, and even after that rulers were relatively hands-off compared to contemporary ones.

>>101214

> I mean, there are plenty of insane things in history, though. Like that time Caligula went to war with Poseidon.

That's largely an ahistorical legend, created by successive mistranslations. The original order was to tear down huts on the coast of Britain, which got misinterpreted as collecting seashells as trophies, due to the similarity in the word for seashell and the slang for the legion's portable huts. Then someone took collecting seashells as trophies to mean that Caligula was collecting war trophies from Neptune.


 No.101220

File: 8107cab0284b0f9⋯.mp4 (2.44 MB, 480x360, 4:3, Yang2020.mp4)




File: 278e8e8c1dcc62b⋯.png (288.81 KB, 901x645, 901:645, pewds.png)

 No.101207[Reply]

Is he ancap?



File: 1ed36079a1b5f7e⋯.jpg (177.46 KB, 1024x768, 4:3, 1470124184588151269.jpg)

 No.101201[Reply]

 No.101205

>>101201

Just glancing at the table of contents…

There's not very much surprising here. Members of different groups tend to act with an in-group preference towards that group. Different groups have different characteristics imparted onto them by biology. These aren't earth-shattering facts, and they have no unilateral implications where policy is concerned.




File: e631ac05867f858⋯.jpeg (9.58 KB, 175x288, 175:288, howifoundfreedom.jpeg)

 No.101128[Reply]

Does anyone else like the book "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World?" Any other Brownouters?

 No.101131

File: a5de3a563936cc0⋯.png (273.34 KB, 592x724, 148:181, libertarianism and islam -….png)

No but that title sounds like "how I accepted being a slave" unless it's about doing illegal stuff. Is it? If yes I will read


 No.101134

File: 315988a13be34e5⋯.pdf (1.37 MB, Harry Browne — How I Found….pdf)

>>101131

The Table of Contents should answer your question pretty swiftly. You should also read the whole book.


 No.101171

>>101134

Ayy thanks!




File: 5709e063eb91a47⋯.png (834.9 KB, 1760x720, 22:9, ClipboardImage.png)

 No.101170[Reply]



File: 47609c2bfc621de⋯.jpg (192.71 KB, 710x577, 710:577, 44443TN 364.PMG.jpg)

 No.100784[Reply]

Hai fren! I made a new tor board called VileChan, please come over because it would make ver me happy.

http://hvjgdbwgmn4iu4yxkc4gxxclskxigh5oz52uot3ltqijb76wxjdnxpyd.onion/

 No.101153

>>100784

The link goes nowhere OP


 No.101154

>>101153

Can't say I've tested the link but you should try using the onion router, as that's what it's meant for. That is unless you tried that and it just didn't work out, in which case wew lads.


 No.101155

>>101154

damn, im glad you explained what tor meant to people here.


 No.101159

File: 889a02e40e6677c⋯.jpg (109.5 KB, 918x804, 153:134, peacin.jpg)

>>101155

You betcha fren




File: c24960be21a4938⋯.jpg (887.66 KB, 1439x2036, 1439:2036, Screenshot_20190219-101153….jpg)

 No.98312[Reply]

>Ludwig von Mises was born to Jewish parents in the city of Lemberg, Galicia, Austria-Hungary (Ukrainian : Lviv, now Ukraine).

Should this concern me?

Do I have any guarantee that he was not informed by malicious talmudism, given that he was probably exposed to it? Everything he wrote certainly seems to counter it.

>You're just a /pol/ anti-semite

The NWO is overwhelmingly Jewish. The Frankfurt school is the Genesis of our present statist situation. Obviously you're not a member of the NWO by virtue of being born a heeb

83 posts and 22 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.101113

>>101107

>It takes more than racism to be right-wing you commie.

I would go a step further and say that racialism is left-wing. It's an essential aspect of leftism that it alienates persons from themselves, isolating some fact about them and reducing them to it. Communism reduces persons to their class, feminism to their gender, civic nationalism ultimately to their linguistic group. How, then, is it not leftist to reduce people to their race? Not to mention that it's no doubt leftist when the SJW's do it. No one calls them right-wing just because they care more about race than anyone else, and it's not just because they love and hate the opposite of what white supremacists love and hate, as it's easy enough to envision a black supremacist group that is right-wing in every other regard.

Race realism, meanwhile, is right-wing. If race has a bearing on our person, then as right-wingers, we must acknowledge it, but we mustn't reduce people to their race, which is what the racialists do.


 No.101114

>>101111

wtf I love the state now


 No.101116

File: 6323f2c192f22e1⋯.jpg (92.12 KB, 1024x576, 16:9, DuEFb_eUwAAP6Zo.jpg)

>>101113

Fuck off, Johnson. No one gives a fuck about your watered-down egalitarian libertarianism. I discriminate against whiteoids as much as I want.


 No.101132

>>101114

Go back to trannypol, boot licker


 No.101186

>>101132

What an unbelievable moron you are.




File: 25fcf3f3446d42c⋯.png (47.05 KB, 808x1024, 101:128, ob_53c884_bakunin-1.png)

 No.100543[Reply]

The workers organise their own production like Bakounin 's collectivism but there is a state to tax and provide essential public services. I just came up with that idea, would that work?

9 posts and 3 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.101099

File: e7096349cac0d65⋯.jpg (17.02 KB, 360x360, 1:1, hound_thumbsup.jpg)

>>101045

Glad you thought so, fellow anon.


 No.101106

>>100543

>essential public services

What services do you think are essential?


 No.101115

File: 632a11578398dcb⋯.png (713.62 KB, 786x786, 1:1, ClipboardImage.png)

>>101106

Public toilets. I don't know how you ancraps plan to survive without them. Also, if all the roads are privatized, how will I be able to shit on the streets?


 No.101117

>>100550

What OP means is that it's hard to have a business model where workers run a business the same way, for example, that a family runs a family business and shares the profits among themselves. Honestly, this isn't a bad way to run a business, but it's not ideal for everyone so I don't know why you would call yourself a libertarian if you want to force this on others. If anyone wants to share the means of production in ancap, they'll definitely be able to, they'll be able to start their communes or have entire districts in cities in which everyone runs their business this way.


 No.101129

>>100543

>workplace democracy




File: 4887e846fe8f7e9⋯.png (108.3 KB, 570x389, 570:389, nixonGoldShock.png)

 No.100934[Reply]

It surprises me that socialists don't understand how they're responsible for how wages have stagnated for the past 50 years.

9 posts and 2 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.101084

File: c865e57df24ecc2⋯.jpg (42.01 KB, 672x453, 224:151, somethingHappened1971.jpg)

File: cf279d7588c9e41⋯.png (110.65 KB, 780x439, 780:439, somethingHappened1971-2.png)

File: 00f0be50765917a⋯.jpg (372.26 KB, 2067x1562, 2067:1562, somethingHappened1971-3.jpg)

>>101071

Really?

I can find more graphs to support this thesis. Something happened in 1971.


 No.101085


 No.101101

>>101084

pic 1. Johnson's Great Socoiety beginning in 1964

pic 2. Termination of the Bretton Woods system in 1971, which leads to…

pic 3. Debt Bubble buoyed by the petrodollar

This is just a simplified model of events and there are many more causes and factors in play.


 No.101108

>>100949

>The gap between productivity and compensation is the largest it's been in 40 years

>This proves that compensation tracks productivity perfectly, and people are just getting paid in benefits instead of cash


 No.101109

>>101108

The graph is closer than the one in OP, suggesting that compensation has been much closer to productivity than is otherwise implied. The reason for the gap may be found in the fact that a large portion of nonwage compensation is state mandated–workers don't have the option to select a job which pays entirely in cash rather than benefits because such jobs have been legislated out of existence. Since every worker must receive part of his compensation as benefits that aren't perfectly substitutable with one another, every potential worker who wishes to quit one job in order to seek another, better-paying one faces switching costs–there's some uncertainty as to whether or not the benefits received at the new job will be better or worse than the ones in the current job, as one cannot wholly discern the quality of benefits before experiencing them. Further, one cannot accumulate benefits in savings the way cash can be, which means that there is no stockpile of benefits on which one can draw during periods of frictional unemployment the way you can with cash. All of these factors mean that being compensated with benefits rather than cash makes workers less flexible with their employment decisions, and thus much more wage-inelastic. This results in them being willing to accept a lower wage when the government mandates them to take a portion of payment in benefits rather than wages. And this increased inelasticity is the reason for the increasing gap between productivity and compensation.




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